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Doom-flayers.

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  • RyUnboundRyUnbound Registered Users Posts: 32
    edited April 2019
    Ok, but can someone go into multiplayer use these units and show us why they are OP?

    I don't care if a unit is op on single player, if someone want to use a full stack with them let him do it.

    Some of you guys are assuming that this need an urgent fix and right now is free win on multiplayer.

    And i don't see it in this case.

    Anyway do an 1x1 using unit testing mod, i think it was updated today, and them post it. Make some real battle test, because from what I've seen their counters aren't missile/halberds/cavalry, but monsters units.
  • Pandajacket#1953Pandajacket#1953 Registered Users Posts: 74
    I think these overreactions are a bit hilarious.

    DLC has been out 1 day lol.

    I think some people here would do well to go back and watch the everchosen and pick up some tips from good players.
  • RyUnboundRyUnbound Registered Users Posts: 32
    edited April 2019
    Green0 said:

    RyUnbound said:

    Ok, but can someone go into multiplayer use these units and show us why they are OP?

    I don't care if a unit is op on single player, if someone want to use a full stack with them let him do it.

    Some of you guys are assuming that this need an urgent fix and right now is free win on multiplayer.

    And i don't see it in this case.

    Anyway do an 1x1 using unit testing mod, i think it was updated today, and them post it. Make some real battle test, Because from what i've seen their counters aren't missle/halberds/cavaly, but monsters units.

    this has been posted literally on the first page in the OP.

    You have at least 3 ways to see they're OP:

    1) play ladder and spam them/queue vs Skaven and try to kill them with conventional anti-chariot units (archers, cavalry)
    2) test vs AI (shown in the OP)
    3) compare stats to similarly priced and strong units such as Gorebeast Chariot.


    The funny thing is that say you compare WS to Gorebeast Chariot. They don't have like 10 more. But 45 more. On top of a hefty BvI and crazy animations (that prevent counter units such as Phoenix Guard from retaliating effectively even in prolonged melee).
    Did some test, the mod to transform normal units in lords isn't working, but here:

    https://imgur.com/GGnmC17 (just before losing to morale)
    https://i.imgur.com/choP5lH.jpg Battle scene

    All of these lost to morale when they had 50% HP left, Lords did not interfere, i have conceded after the unit waved.
    https://imgur.com/LxMkMa8
    https://imgur.com/OPtyifD (seems like the warlock helped a little bit, anyway still the halberds units won.
    https://imgur.com/ZluZ2A3
    https://imgur.com/SXyaLEG


    Edit: and i don't have to prove anything or test anything, you and OP need to make correct testing, using correct ways to judge the unit, for now i just saw prints of them against unconventional only one type army.

    Just so you know doomwheels is still better than them in multiplayer.

    SO PLEASE IF ANYONE WANT TO PROVE THAT THIS UNIT IS OP GO TO MULTIPLAYER AND SHOW TO ME!
  • RyUnboundRyUnbound Registered Users Posts: 32
    edited April 2019
    **** what i posted was deleted or a bug, anyway.

    Here are some screen shoots:

    Full Doom-flayers vs conventional army moments before losing to morale:
    https://i.imgur.com/GGnmC17.jpg
    End screen:
    https://i.imgur.com/choP5lH.jpg


    1x1 tests.
    ( all of them waved at 40-50% hp, and i conceded after they waved, most of the enemy units were in the 80-90% HP left ).
    https://i.imgur.com/ZluZ2A3.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/SXyaLEG.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/OPtyifD.jpg (warlock helped but still proves my points so...)
    https://i.imgur.com/LxMkMa8.jpg


    Anyway, from what i know doom-wheels are better than them on multiplayer.

    And if anyone wants to prove that they are OP just go to multiplayer, record, or just post screenshot of why they are op.
  • TlaxtlanSoothsayerTlaxtlanSoothsayer Registered Users Posts: 2,815
    edited April 2019
    A lot of complaints about then new units are anecdotal stories full of exaggeration.


    The complaints about Doom Flayers are justified though. At least in my opinion Doom Flayers overperform in many regards. Let me explain why this is the case, please:


    Doom Flayers don't beat Demigryphs in 1on1 or anything like that, Doom Flayers aren't thaaat crazy. :smiley: But they destroy various cavalry units in 1on1 head on charges, just give it a try.

    For example Empire Knights don't stand a chance against Skaven motorbikes. Doom Flayers have several thousand hit points left after this engagement. Why is this an issue? It's an issue because similar units can't do this and don't even come close. The Gorebeast Chariot is a similar unit that costs 1200 gold as well. Gorebeasts outright lose to Empire Knights.

    Doom Flayers also perform better against infantry most of the time. Of course Gorebeast or Razogor Chariots have higher charge bonus, but it doesn't really matter, because the CB of Doom Flayers is high enough to hit with their ridiculous weapon strength. They have almost 200% of the WS of regular three model chariots.

    Another issue is the small hitbox of Doom Flayers. It's really difficult to take them down with ranged units. They often seem to take surprisingly low damage in close combat as well, maybe the hitbox is an issue in melee combat, too?



    Detailed explanation why the Doom Flayer hitbox is an issue:,
    (Just skip this part, please, if if you don't care for an explanation: Regular chariots consist of several entities and each of these entities has a hitbox: The draft animals, the chariot itself and the riders. For example a Gorebeast Chariot has at least 4 hitboxes, 2 of the charioteers on top of the chariot, Gorebeast animals in front of it and the chariot itself.

    Doom Flayers are different story. Other chariots have plenty of hitboxes, Doom Flayers don't. Their hitbox is smaller on top of that. Actually saying that Doom-Flayers are small would be an understatement. They are just a tiny, little spot compared to other chariots. It's no surprise that it's difficult to hit them.)




    To sum it up:
    • Doom Flayers vastly outperform similar units such as Razogor or Gorebeast Chariot in the majority of possible scenarios.
    • Doom Flayers are able to defeat various cavalry units on their own (Such as Empire Knights, other chariots lose).
    • Don't get countered by ranged units as much as other chariots either.
    • Of course they also annihilate infantry.
    • Their hitbox is either a joke compared to similar units or secret Skaven sorcery.
  • AngradAngrad Registered Users Posts: 21

    Angrad said:

    Green0 said:

    Frook said:

    They need a large part of their MA and damage replaced with BvI.

    their MA is fine, they need to:

    - lose their passive ability
    - lose 10-20 armor
    - hitbox increase
    - lose 30-40 WS
    - lose 6-10 speed

    then they'll be balanced.
    Green0 said:

    Frook said:

    They need a large part of their MA and damage replaced with BvI.

    their MA is fine, they need to:

    - lose their passive ability
    - lose 10-20 armor
    - hitbox increase
    - lose 30-40 WS
    - lose 6-10 speed

    then they'll be balanced.
    You think that nerfing their weapon strength by nearly 50% on top of everything else will make them “balanced?” Seems like overkill.

    This whole forum reads like “I lost to Skaven and Lizardmen the day new content is released please nerf!”

    In tournament play neither faction has been completely dominant and have been stomped on by good players. They are stronger now yes, but they should be. Skaven were near bottom tier before the update and it was right for the added units to make them better and harder to play against.
    Just so you are aware they have approximately 2x the WS of other chariots. Cutting the WS by 50% would put them around the heaviest AP chariots. They would still perform very well due to their armor and animations. Not sue what CA was thinking, but I wanted to clear that up for you / others
    They also have less than half of the charge bonus of a gorebeast chariot. Charge bonus gets applied to both melee attack and weapon strength on the charge.
    Green0 said:

    RyUnbound said:

    Ok, but can someone go into multiplayer use these units and show us why they are OP?

    I don't care if a unit is op on single player, if someone want to use a full stack with them let him do it.

    Some of you guys are assuming that this need an urgent fix and right now is free win on multiplayer.

    And i don't see it in this case.

    Anyway do an 1x1 using unit testing mod, i think it was updated today, and them post it. Make some real battle test, Because from what i've seen their counters aren't missle/halberds/cavaly, but monsters units.

    this has been posted literally on the first page in the OP.

    You have at least 3 ways to see they're OP:

    1) play ladder and spam them/queue vs Skaven and try to kill them with conventional anti-chariot units (archers, cavalry)
    2) test vs AI (shown in the OP)
    3) compare stats to similarly priced and strong units such as Gorebeast Chariot.


    The funny thing is that say you compare WS to Gorebeast Chariot. They don't have like 10 more. But 45 more. On top of a hefty BvI and crazy animations (that prevent counter units such as Phoenix Guard from retaliating effectively even in prolonged melee).
    Gorebeast chariot also has an extra 50 charge bonus. More than double! Charge bonus gets applied to both melee attack and weapon strength on the charge, which you can keep up if you micro them correctly. Why isn’t anyone bringing up that? Nerfing their numbers to the levels of other chariots without addressing the differences in charge bonus would just make them worse chariots.

    It also seems like they aren’t meant to be chariots, which is good. I’d play a historical total war if I wanted all the factions to play nearly the same. The asymmetry is what makes this setting so interesting. Their bonus when in melee and animations make them more analogous to something like a tomb scorpion.
  • RyUnboundRyUnbound Registered Users Posts: 32
    @TlaxtlanSoothsayer

    Yeah is just like this, the thing is they are easier to use than others chariots, so the question is, are chariots bad or is doom-flayers just good?

    On my opinion Doom flayers need to be slightly nerfed, and most of chariots buffed to be on par.

    On most rosters chariots are never picked, most of times only on grey-shaman or tomb kings.

    Another thing, how to counter them after they become good? Probably just using halberds + high mass monster units or high precision missile.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 10,038
    edited April 2019
    Best.Patch.Ever.

    Games never been so balance tbh, they dont tell u about the free buffs certain faction gets lol. Ah the witch hunt of skaven, so beautiful.
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  • ParmigianoParmigiano Registered Users Posts: 763
    I think it's a possibility that doomflayers are supposed to or should be a cav/chariot hybrid unit.

    As long as they don't entirely replace rat ogres. The tests so far show it's more of a chariot blobbing issue.
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,928
    I think they're bugged.

    They're supposed to be cav/chariot/dragon hybrid but they can't fly.
  • DatHomieSilverSurfer#4822DatHomieSilverSurfer#4822 Registered Users Posts: 313
    I agree that there do need to be some nerfs to the Doom Flayers durability, Doom Flayers aren't chariots. They need to stop being directly compared to chariots because they DO NOT share identical uses/functions (the significantly lower charge bonus should indicate that)
  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,231
    Agreed Doom Flayers are totally broken and have no counters.

    Need to fix them, need to radically rethink them and what they are supposed to be doing.

    My suggestion is make them no longer chariots, make them more like stuck in Monstrous Infantry that thrash other infantry. That's actually what they are supposed to be. There is nothing in the rules to suggest they should move any faster then regular Skaven infantry.
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Registered Users Posts: 9,681

    A lot of complaints about then new units are anecdotal stories full of exaggeration.


    The complaints about Doom Flayers are justified though. At least in my opinion Doom Flayers overperform in many regards. Let me explain why this is the case, please:


    Doom Flayers don't beat Demigryphs in 1on1 or anything like that, Doom Flayers aren't thaaat crazy. :smiley: But they destroy various cavalry units in 1on1 head on charges, just give it a try.

    For example Empire Knights don't stand a chance against Skaven motorbikes. Doom Flayers have several thousand hit points left after this engagement. Why is this an issue? It's an issue because similar units can't do this and don't even come close. The Gorebeast Chariot is a similar unit that costs 1200 gold as well. Gorebeasts outright lose to Empire Knights.

    Doom Flayers also perform better against infantry most of the time. Of course Gorebeast or Razogor Chariots have higher charge bonus, but it doesn't really matter, because the CB of Doom Flayers is high enough to hit with their ridiculous weapon strength. They have almost 200% of the WS of regular three model chariots.

    Another issue is the small hitbox of Doom Flayers. It's really difficult to take them down with ranged units. They often seem to take surprisingly low damage in close combat as well, maybe the hitbox is an issue in melee combat, too?



    Detailed explanation why the Doom Flayer hitbox is an issue:,
    (Just skip this part, please, if if you don't care for an explanation: Regular chariots consist of several entities and each of these entities has a hitbox: The draft animals, the chariot itself and the riders. For example a Gorebeast Chariot has at least 4 hitboxes, 2 of the charioteers on top of the chariot, Gorebeast animals in front of it and the chariot itself.

    Doom Flayers are different story. Other chariots have plenty of hitboxes, Doom Flayers don't. Their hitbox is smaller on top of that. Actually saying that Doom-Flayers are small would be an understatement. They are just a tiny, little spot compared to other chariots. It's no surprise that it's difficult to hit them.)




    To sum it up:

    • Doom Flayers vastly outperform similar units such as Razogor or Gorebeast Chariot in the majority of possible scenarios.
    • Doom Flayers are able to defeat various cavalry units on their own (Such as Empire Knights, other chariots lose).
    • Don't get countered by ranged units as much as other chariots either.
    • Of course they also annihilate infantry.
    • Their hitbox is either a joke compared to similar units or secret Skaven sorcery.
    Very nice analysis. I would just say though that it's not inherintly a problem if they can perform well in sustained combat or against cavalry. That's more of a design choice. It IS a problem if the reason they do that is they have a stupidly small hit box, which would suggest it's not really intentional but more of a design flaw.
  • Slade_X#5621Slade_X#5621 Registered Users Posts: 172
    Da Boyz ain't scared of no one!
  • Arkkin_Arkkin_ Registered Users Posts: 207
    I agree that this unit is overpowered, but the test shown are quite exaggerated. Here are some results with human testing, all units charged each other and remained in combat until one routed (no spells used):

    https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/835890517840146268/F97BF37E64B7BB49581E566DA81B17B1A97F4E97/

    https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/835890517840146340/E15D1712564DA4E0607C76974F176CF3970A82D7/

    https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/835890517840146102/DA31A03FBCD739B3F24CD0885F72C2B8FE5CDD4D/

    https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/835890517840146187/39C1AED52620E4A6D4EFDD0E0D05079BF7A6E83D/

    They just barely lose to reiksguard and get stomped by demis. Obviously reiksguard should do significantly better vs them since doomflayers are basically anti-inf chariots, but they could be brought in line by a reasonable nerf to weapon strength. There is a different unit that warrants a separate post though...
  • Kayosiv#7489Kayosiv#7489 Registered Users Posts: 2,900
    The tests above were said to be if all the doomflayers were kept in a tight ball-formation, which is very easy to do considering they are small and only 3 models a unit.

    1v1 they are too strong as well, but as a blob they seem to be even more difficult to counter.
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  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,375
    Chaun said:

    I agree that this unit is overpowered, but the test shown are quite exaggerated. Here are some results with human testing, all units charged each other and remained in combat until one routed (no spells used):

    https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/835890517840146268/F97BF37E64B7BB49581E566DA81B17B1A97F4E97/

    https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/835890517840146340/E15D1712564DA4E0607C76974F176CF3970A82D7/

    https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/835890517840146102/DA31A03FBCD739B3F24CD0885F72C2B8FE5CDD4D/

    https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/835890517840146187/39C1AED52620E4A6D4EFDD0E0D05079BF7A6E83D/

    They just barely lose to reiksguard and get stomped by demis. Obviously reiksguard should do significantly better vs them since doomflayers are basically anti-inf chariots, but they could be brought in line by a reasonable nerf to weapon strength. There is a different unit that warrants a separate post though...

    Why would you not blob them?
  • eumaies#1128eumaies#1128 Registered Users Posts: 9,681
    Yeah this unit so broken it’s not even interesting to play against Skaven as dwarves. Play and hope they don’t spam them? I mean sure some units can damage them eventually but it’s not a fair fight. Ruins the fun of the game.

    I took three of these and ikit vs high elves with tons of counter units. Played terribly and I still was able to roll around with these guys for 10 minutes taking no damage from anti large heroes or bolt throwers hitting me constantly.

    Terrible job on this unit CA.
  • Seethe#1847Seethe#1847 Registered Users Posts: 260
    edited April 2019
    Bjorn said:

    Angrad said:

    Green0 said:

    Frook said:

    They need a large part of their MA and damage replaced with BvI.

    their MA is fine, they need to:

    - lose their passive ability
    - lose 10-20 armor
    - hitbox increase
    - lose 30-40 WS
    - lose 6-10 speed

    then they'll be balanced.
    Green0 said:

    Frook said:

    They need a large part of their MA and damage replaced with BvI.

    their MA is fine, they need to:

    - lose their passive ability
    - lose 10-20 armor
    - hitbox increase
    - lose 30-40 WS
    - lose 6-10 speed

    then they'll be balanced.
    You think that nerfing their weapon strength by nearly 50% on top of everything else will make them “balanced?” Seems like overkill.

    This whole forum reads like “I lost to Skaven and Lizardmen the day new content is released please nerf!”

    In tournament play neither faction has been completely dominant and have been stomped on by good players. They are stronger now yes, but they should be. Skaven were near bottom tier before the update and it was right for the added units to make them better and harder to play against.
    I played quite a lot on release day and a little later and quite often won against the skaven, but I am absolutely sure that they are too strong.
    Increase hit boxing at times and reduce speed is the MINIMUM that is required to be done.

    They are so easily abused that it doesn’t even require a huge skill.

    Passive ability is also superfluous. This unit, like a chariot unit, has no pronounced weaknesses, coupled with how the Skaven fraction on the release feels, this is an imbalance.
    Here you need to either pull up the rest of the faction or nerf rats.

    In my opinion, ratlinguns also need to reduce the slowdown.

    Ratling guns are already extremely niche due to the same problems the globadiers have: short range, AND they have no arching fire. They are crap at long range, but in the rare chance that they get to fire at close range, they are good at bursting. You take away their slow, they're toast.
  • glosskilos#4009glosskilos#4009 Registered Users Posts: 1,552
    Seethe said:

    Bjorn said:

    Angrad said:

    Green0 said:

    Frook said:

    They need a large part of their MA and damage replaced with BvI.

    their MA is fine, they need to:

    - lose their passive ability
    - lose 10-20 armor
    - hitbox increase
    - lose 30-40 WS
    - lose 6-10 speed

    then they'll be balanced.
    Green0 said:

    Frook said:

    They need a large part of their MA and damage replaced with BvI.

    their MA is fine, they need to:

    - lose their passive ability
    - lose 10-20 armor
    - hitbox increase
    - lose 30-40 WS
    - lose 6-10 speed

    then they'll be balanced.
    You think that nerfing their weapon strength by nearly 50% on top of everything else will make them “balanced?” Seems like overkill.

    This whole forum reads like “I lost to Skaven and Lizardmen the day new content is released please nerf!”

    In tournament play neither faction has been completely dominant and have been stomped on by good players. They are stronger now yes, but they should be. Skaven were near bottom tier before the update and it was right for the added units to make them better and harder to play against.
    I played quite a lot on release day and a little later and quite often won against the skaven, but I am absolutely sure that they are too strong.
    Increase hit boxing at times and reduce speed is the MINIMUM that is required to be done.

    They are so easily abused that it doesn’t even require a huge skill.

    Passive ability is also superfluous. This unit, like a chariot unit, has no pronounced weaknesses, coupled with how the Skaven fraction on the release feels, this is an imbalance.
    Here you need to either pull up the rest of the faction or nerf rats.

    In my opinion, ratlinguns also need to reduce the slowdown.

    Ratling guns are already extremely niche due to the same problems the globadiers have: short range, AND they have no arching fire. They are crap at long range, but in the rare chance that they get to fire at close range, they are good at bursting. You take away their slow, they're toast.
    Not take it away, just reduce it. And they’re not a niche pick when you combine them with jezzails. Plus they’re almost better for protecting the backline than the frontline. They’ll slow and quickly damage and kill any cav unit that gets close, especially if they’re protected by rat ogres
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,375
    eumaies said:

    Yeah this unit so broken it’s not even interesting to play against Skaven as dwarves. Play and hope they don’t spam them? I mean sure some units can damage them eventually but it’s not a fair fight. Ruins the fun of the game.

    I took three of these and ikit vs high elves with tons of counter units. Played terribly and I still was able to roll around with these guys for 10 minutes taking no damage from anti large heroes or bolt throwers hitting me constantly.

    Terrible job on this unit CA.

    "But we shoukd wait few months before posting about broken stuff"

    Worst thing for me is that they are so broken that it takes attention away from other OP units aka 90% of new stuff.

    Skinks with 21 CB lmao....
  • Arkkin_Arkkin_ Registered Users Posts: 207

    eumaies said:

    Yeah this unit so broken it’s not even interesting to play against Skaven as dwarves. Play and hope they don’t spam them? I mean sure some units can damage them eventually but it’s not a fair fight. Ruins the fun of the game.

    I took three of these and ikit vs high elves with tons of counter units. Played terribly and I still was able to roll around with these guys for 10 minutes taking no damage from anti large heroes or bolt throwers hitting me constantly.

    Terrible job on this unit CA.

    "But we shoukd wait few months before posting about broken stuff"

    Worst thing for me is that they are so broken that it takes attention away from other OP units aka 90% of new stuff.

    Skinks with 21 CB lmao....
    The red-crested skinks are actually comparable to marauders with great weapons. Yes they also have poison, they are 75 more expensive and have less hp. I would say minor tweaks at most are needed for them.
  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 10,038
    Chaun said:


    The red-crested skinks are actually comparable to marauders with great weapons. Yes they also have poison, they are 75 more expensive and have less hp. I would say minor tweaks at most are needed for them.

    Nah just some garbage justification. No one even use mara 2h all a sudden they focus on skinks lol.
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  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,375
    Chaun said:

    eumaies said:

    Yeah this unit so broken it’s not even interesting to play against Skaven as dwarves. Play and hope they don’t spam them? I mean sure some units can damage them eventually but it’s not a fair fight. Ruins the fun of the game.

    I took three of these and ikit vs high elves with tons of counter units. Played terribly and I still was able to roll around with these guys for 10 minutes taking no damage from anti large heroes or bolt throwers hitting me constantly.

    Terrible job on this unit CA.

    "But we shoukd wait few months before posting about broken stuff"

    Worst thing for me is that they are so broken that it takes attention away from other OP units aka 90% of new stuff.

    Skinks with 21 CB lmao....
    The red-crested skinks are actually comparable to marauders with great weapons. Yes they also have poison, they are 75 more expensive and have less hp. I would say minor tweaks at most are needed for them.
    And frenzy and are much faster.

    They about 50g underpriced
  • Arkkin_Arkkin_ Registered Users Posts: 207

    Chaun said:

    eumaies said:

    Yeah this unit so broken it’s not even interesting to play against Skaven as dwarves. Play and hope they don’t spam them? I mean sure some units can damage them eventually but it’s not a fair fight. Ruins the fun of the game.

    I took three of these and ikit vs high elves with tons of counter units. Played terribly and I still was able to roll around with these guys for 10 minutes taking no damage from anti large heroes or bolt throwers hitting me constantly.

    Terrible job on this unit CA.

    "But we shoukd wait few months before posting about broken stuff"

    Worst thing for me is that they are so broken that it takes attention away from other OP units aka 90% of new stuff.

    Skinks with 21 CB lmao....
    The red-crested skinks are actually comparable to marauders with great weapons. Yes they also have poison, they are 75 more expensive and have less hp. I would say minor tweaks at most are needed for them.
    And frenzy and are much faster.

    They about 50g underpriced
    They have far worse melee stacks than the marauders without frenzy, which means that frenzy isn't a buff over the marauder great weapons. I think the unit has melee stats fitting its price, only thing I am not sure about is their speed. Tbh I would rather lose some speed on them than have their price go up.
  • Pacifist_WarlordPacifist_Warlord Registered Users Posts: 53
    Doom-flayers are just broken as hell. Lets hope that it doesnt take CA 3 months to fix it because right now it is imposible to play vs skavens. Other units might need a tweak here and there but doom-flayers are game breaking.
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