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You think that nerfing their weapon strength by nearly 50% on top of everything else will make them “balanced?” Seems like overkill.
This whole forum reads like “I lost to Skaven and Lizardmen the day new content is released please nerf!”
In tournament play neither faction has been completely dominant and have been stomped on by good players. They are stronger now yes, but they should be. Skaven were near bottom tier before the update and it was right for the added units to make them better and harder to play against.
I played quite a lot on release day and a little later and quite often won against the skaven, but I am absolutely sure that they are too strong. Increase hit boxing at times and reduce speed is the MINIMUM that is required to be done.
They are so easily abused that it doesn’t even require a huge skill.
Passive ability is also superfluous. This unit, like a chariot unit, has no pronounced weaknesses, coupled with how the Skaven fraction on the release feels, this is an imbalance. Here you need to either pull up the rest of the faction or nerf rats.
In my opinion, ratlinguns also need to reduce the slowdown.
Ratling guns are already extremely niche due to the same problems the globadiers have: short range, AND they have no arching fire. They are crap at long range, but in the rare chance that they get to fire at close range, they are good at bursting. You take away their slow, they're toast.
Welcome to the reality of multiplayer. If we talked about irondrakes, then I would say that you need a slowdown). But rats, unlike other bearded races, have wonderful road blocks. Terrestrial chariots and monsters, so I think they don't need this slowdown to realize their fire potential. In general, the whole patch is saturated with this atmosphere, that all the holes and weaknesses of the race were taken and covered up, which is very upsetting. It should not be.
Yeah this unit so broken it’s not even interesting to play against Skaven as dwarves. Play and hope they don’t spam them? I mean sure some units can damage them eventually but it’s not a fair fight. Ruins the fun of the game.
I took three of these and ikit vs high elves with tons of counter units. Played terribly and I still was able to roll around with these guys for 10 minutes taking no damage from anti large heroes or bolt throwers hitting me constantly.
Terrible job on this unit CA.
Worst thing for me is that they are so broken that it takes attention away from other OP units aka 90% of new stuff.
This is a real concern that I share. In total its like 20 issues with the dlc that would warrant a, dedicated thread at any other point in time. We had the same situation with vampiates, lots of bs slipped through the hotpatch and we had to endure months of op pirate's.
Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it!
Yeah this unit so broken it’s not even interesting to play against Skaven as dwarves. Play and hope they don’t spam them? I mean sure some units can damage them eventually but it’s not a fair fight. Ruins the fun of the game.
I took three of these and ikit vs high elves with tons of counter units. Played terribly and I still was able to roll around with these guys for 10 minutes taking no damage from anti large heroes or bolt throwers hitting me constantly.
Terrible job on this unit CA.
Worst thing for me is that they are so broken that it takes attention away from other OP units aka 90% of new stuff.
This is a real concern that I share. In total its like 20 issues with the dlc that would warrant a, dedicated thread at any other point in time. We had the same situation with vampiates, lots of bs slipped through the hotpatch and we had to endure months of op pirate's.
Nothing in the pirate's roster is even close to the motorcycles... I agree that most of the new units need a rebalancing but doom-flayers is like hellebron at the begining or the skaven summon... need a patch ASAP. Every other issue can wait.
Yeah this unit so broken it’s not even interesting to play against Skaven as dwarves. Play and hope they don’t spam them? I mean sure some units can damage them eventually but it’s not a fair fight. Ruins the fun of the game.
I took three of these and ikit vs high elves with tons of counter units. Played terribly and I still was able to roll around with these guys for 10 minutes taking no damage from anti large heroes or bolt throwers hitting me constantly.
Terrible job on this unit CA.
Worst thing for me is that they are so broken that it takes attention away from other OP units aka 90% of new stuff.
This is a real concern that I share. In total its like 20 issues with the dlc that would warrant a, dedicated thread at any other point in time. We had the same situation with vampiates, lots of bs slipped through the hotpatch and we had to endure months of op pirate's.
Nothing in the pirate's roster is even close to the motorcycles... I agree that most of the new units need a rebalancing but doom-flayers is like hellebron at the begining or the skaven summon... need a patch ASAP. Every other issue can wait.
There were depthguard that was prenerfed (which should have happened to flayers and jezzails IMO) but then there was a hotfix iirc but I can't recall what was fixed there. The thing is that the presence of a few completely broken units take all attention and then a whole lot, of more subtle or situation specific over performers slip through the safety net of the hotfix and then we have to endure these for months....
Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it!
Not sure what these guys r enduring lol, clearly those r balance af. Ppl whinge about mournguls like theres no tomorrow. When they r clearly such a mediocre unit where in some case they even get outperform vs inf by even the low dmg generalist treekin, pretty pathetic result given they r the ap anti inf. Too bad prices didnt go down, just got a couple victim nerfs
Not sure what these guys r enduring lol, clearly those r balance af. Ppl whinge about mournguls like theres no tomorrow. When they r clearly such a mediocre unit where in some case they even get outperform vs inf by even the low dmg generalist treekin, pretty pathetic result given they r the ap anti inf. Too bad prices didnt go down, just got a couple victim nerfs
Treekin are not infantry, they are monstrous infantry (large), and they are supposed to counter large entities, so that’s a pretty poor comparison.
Also it is amusing that you claim that they are ”clearly balanced af” when the general concensus seems to be otherwise. Your conception of ”clearly” seems seems highly subjective and I have a really hard time to take that seriously.
Not sure what these guys r enduring lol, clearly those r balance af. Ppl whinge about mournguls like theres no tomorrow. When they r clearly such a mediocre unit where in some case they even get outperform vs inf by even the low dmg generalist treekin, pretty pathetic result given they r the ap anti inf. Too bad prices didnt go down, just got a couple victim nerfs
Nah you can’t have it both ways. They nerfed mournguls so they would have greater weaknesses to their counters (ranged and cheap anti large in Melee). They were a bit too strong and most likely reason they nerfed them was the stats showed it.
As for flayers, their hit box should basically be classified as a bug. It’s not even comparable to any other unit in the game.
As for Jezzails, they made them counter infantry to a really high degree. I think they’re easy enough for most factions to counter so it’s not game breaking but i did the two sisters of avelorn test and the ror is accurate enough to make it a very close call who wins that dare even if all jezzail shots are fired at long range. That’s just silly. 900 point unit that can be cost effective vs any two infantry units that cost 500 or more. Yeah it’s great cavalry and artillery can counter them but they have all the best characteristics of multiple unit types and it’s a little bit too strong. Reduce accuracy or fire rate would help.
A large problem right now is that skaven have acces to both Flayers and very strong ranged units. Units/armies that are meant to counter flayers (Monsterous infantry, and single entity monsters if they can trap the flayers) will get shot to pieces by jezzails and machine guns. Whilst armies that are meant to counter skaven rnaged (Allot of cavalry ,fast effective infantry units etc) get countered by flayers.
A large problem right now is that skaven have acces to both Flayers and very strong ranged units. Units/armies that are meant to counter flayers (Monsterous infantry, and single entity monsters if they can trap the flayers) will get shot to pieces by jezzails and machine guns. Whilst armies that are meant to counter skaven rnaged (Allot of cavalry ,fast effective infantry units etc) get countered by flayers.
Yeah, and while that normally might not be something bad necessarily, it gets bad when both are op.
Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it!
This is excessive though, lets be resonable here. Just reduce their armor by 24, meaning in Melee they will have their current armor level, but they will be weaker to missiles, reducing their WS by maybe 20 would be max though, it just far too big of a nerf what you are proposing. I agree with hitbox changes, but honestly thats all they really need, do that theyll be closer to balanced or perfectly balanced, if more is needed lets do it, but such a huge nerf is a bit of a strech
Here I just want to clear some things up about gorebeast vs Doomflayer comparison as I think there is a bit of exxageration on here.
They have +274 HP -20 armor -10 LD +6 speed -4 MA -11 MD +45 WS (-2 BvI) -40 CB Loose fear, but gain the best defence ability.
In terms of stats there is honestly decent trade, they seem close in value, though Doomflayers seem a bit better. We all agree they need a nerf, but we just need to calm down with the hyperbole.
On the charge( 10 seconds with the charge) doomflayers putted a chaos warrior unit to 5100 HP while Gorebeast putted them to 4500 HP
In full combat against units of stormvermins( S&S) gorebeast had between 21-38 kills. While doomflayers got between 24-46.
Gorebeast bring reiksguards to 2500 hp while doomflayers bring them to 1700 hp.
For a certain reason I could not upload the pictures, seemed to be bugged for me in the last weeks. In the latter test, results were pretty close to this all the time, though these are the results of the cleanest engagements i could do with the AI acting like a dumbass 1 game out of 2...
So as we can see, doomflayers are strong in sustain melee, weaker in cycle charge, but I think the main area they need a nerf in is their WS, bringing it down to 70 would be fine Imo, that would lower their performance against cav a whole lot as I think this is their main OP factor atm.
Just be carefull boys with crying for ridiculous nerfs, actually test it proprelly and see how its supposed to work.
As I said this unit needs a nerf, but lets not over do it its not gonna get us anh closer.
Feel free to redo those test, as Ive only been able to do it vs AI, as nobody else I knew was connected, but as someone of runs test a bit too much, I honestly think they are representative, for the infantry test some rounds RNG made a unit overperform and get 58 kills( doomflayers ) or 49 kills( gorebeast) or underperform like 18 kills for doomflayers and nothing really for gorebeast. I took them out so that we get a closer margin.
Here don't think I am defending doomflayers because I like seeing them OP, I never play skavens and only face them( I kind of hate facing their playstyle but eh !). But I honestly believe that they do not deserve such a ridiculous nerf as the test shown in the OP were rigged or just extremely badly performed as me and other people have retried them and arrived at much different results
They need hitbox change and decent reduction in Weapon Strength.
Whats funny is Goerbeast chariot is in CHAOS roster a roster that gets discounted price for Melee focused units and yet a unit from Skaven roster can compare to them stat wise, before we look at anything we should acknowledge that goerbeast chariots has -50 or -100g not accounted in its cost due to being in Chaos roster than lets discuss from there onwards.
As for the argument that doomflayers are only OP in a blob...please explain to me why would you NOT blob them? There is no reason at all not to.
They need hitbox change and decent reduction in Weapon Strength.
Whats funny is Goerbeast chariot is in CHAOS roster a roster that gets discounted price for Melee focused units and yet a unit from Skaven roster can compare to them stat wise, before we look at anything we should acknowledge that goerbeast chariots has -50 or -100g not accounted in its cost due to being in Chaos roster than lets discuss from there onwards.
As for the argument that doomflayers are only OP in a blob...please explain to me why would you NOT blob them? There is no reason at all not to.
I agree on the nerf ideas, a -20 AP WS and increase in hitbox would be a good start imo.
Though I am not sure if Chaos gets buffs on all melee units, gorebeast are good, but zi never felt they were discounted. It might be true, but I felt that mainly Chaos Infantry had a discount
Really like their ability to push through infantry (they’d be utter **** if they got stuck like cav) but they’re a bit too hard to hit by the infantry that they’re passing though. I guess that’s a hit box issue?
Anti-large heavy cav are just about the only thing that can tie them down properly.
This is excessive though, lets be resonable here. Just reduce their armor by 24, meaning in Melee they will have their current armor level, but they will be weaker to missiles, reducing their WS by maybe 20 would be max though, it just far too big of a nerf what you are proposing. I agree with hitbox changes, but honestly thats all they really need, do that theyll be closer to balanced or perfectly balanced, if more is needed lets do it, but such a huge nerf is a bit of a strech
the point is they shouldn't be better than Gorebeast so the absolute minimum I'm willing to concede is -25 WS, -6 speed and hitbox increase. The biggest issue is that the faster they are, the bigger the hitbox needs to be to keep vulnerability to missiles. I feel like slow cav such as Emp Knights should also have a chance at catching up with them, currently due to higher speed they can't. Not to mention the slow stacking effects.
They shouldn't be weaker they should be equal they both have the same price, while gorebeast are maybe a bit discounted for being melee unit in their faction, the doomflayer is a skaven warmachine, something that should be strong in their roster
There's no point in strictly comparing Doomflayers to chariots because they are not chariots. The Doomwhell is more of a chariot than they are.
Doomflayers have the same "unit type" as other machines which can charge units but also have "sweeping" animations to fight in melee. Such as the Screaming Bell mount and Steam Tank, albeit these are FAR larger in scale.
Other chariots cannot output the same level of damage over time while in pitted combat as Doomflayers despite being the same price because that's not what they're meant to do. Most chariots are made to charge in, and then move out. Dealing most of their damage of the charge and then cycling back again. Doomflayers can certainly charge down a mob, but everything in their design states that they're meant to stay and fight and not cycle charge back like a regular chariot. This is shown by: - Their +armor ONLY while in melee passive, - "Donut attack" animation - Their considerable smaller hitbox and low model count which makes bulldozing enemy models harder. (But also harder to shoot down)
(Of course both can and should be used to pin down other large units with their mass if the need arises).
There's no point in strictly comparing Doomflayers to chariots because they are not chariots. The Doomwhell is more of a chariot than they are.
Doomflayers have the same "unit type" as other machines which can charge units but also have "sweeping" animations to fight in melee. Such as the Screaming Bell mount and Steam Tank, albeit these are FAR larger in scale.
Other chariots cannot output the same level of damage over time while in pitted combat as Doomflayers despite being the same price because that's not what they're meant to do. Most chariots are made to charge in, and then move out. Dealing most of their damage of the charge and then cycling back again. Doomflayers can certainly charge down a mob, but everything in their design states that they're meant to stay and fight and not cycle charge back like a regular chariot. This is shown by: - Their +armor ONLY while in melee passive, - "Donut attack" animation - Their considerable smaller hitbox and low model count which makes bulldozing enemy models harder. (But also harder to shoot down)
(Of course both can and should be used to pin down other large units with their mass if the need arises).
Those are in general some good points about their design.
However even single models on horses are not as hard for artillery or archers to hit. The hit box is overly small.
Comments
If we talked about irondrakes, then I would say that you need a slowdown).
But rats, unlike other bearded races, have wonderful road blocks. Terrestrial chariots and monsters, so I think they don't need this slowdown to realize their fire potential.
In general, the whole patch is saturated with this atmosphere, that all the holes and weaknesses of the race were taken and covered up, which is very upsetting.
It should not be.
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0 · Disagree AgreeTop #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
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0 · Disagree AgreeAlso it is amusing that you claim that they are ”clearly balanced af” when the general concensus seems to be otherwise. Your conception of ”clearly” seems seems highly subjective and I have a really hard time to take that seriously.
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0 · Disagree AgreeAs for flayers, their hit box should basically be classified as a bug. It’s not even comparable to any other unit in the game.
As for Jezzails, they made them counter infantry to a really high degree. I think they’re easy enough for most factions to counter so it’s not game breaking but i did the two sisters of avelorn test and the ror is accurate enough to make it a very close call who wins that dare even if all jezzail shots are fired at long range. That’s just silly. 900 point unit that can be cost effective vs any two infantry units that cost 500 or more. Yeah it’s great cavalry and artillery can counter them but they have all the best characteristics of multiple unit types and it’s a little bit too strong. Reduce accuracy or fire rate would help.
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0 · Disagree AgreeI agree with hitbox changes, but honestly thats all they really need, do that theyll be closer to balanced or perfectly balanced, if more is needed lets do it, but such a huge nerf is a bit of a strech
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2 · Disagree AgreeThey have
+274 HP
-20 armor
-10 LD
+6 speed
-4 MA
-11 MD
+45 WS (-2 BvI)
-40 CB
Loose fear, but gain the best defence ability.
In terms of stats there is honestly decent trade, they seem close in value, though Doomflayers seem a bit better. We all agree they need a nerf, but we just need to calm down with the hyperbole.
On the charge( 10 seconds with the charge) doomflayers putted a chaos warrior unit to 5100 HP while Gorebeast putted them to 4500 HP
In full combat against units of stormvermins( S&S) gorebeast had between 21-38 kills. While doomflayers got between 24-46.
Gorebeast bring reiksguards to 2500 hp while doomflayers bring them to 1700 hp.
For a certain reason I could not upload the pictures, seemed to be bugged for me in the last weeks. In the latter test, results were pretty close to this all the time, though these are the results of the cleanest engagements i could do with the AI acting like a dumbass 1 game out of 2...
So as we can see, doomflayers are strong in sustain melee, weaker in cycle charge, but I think the main area they need a nerf in is their WS, bringing it down to 70 would be fine Imo, that would lower their performance against cav a whole lot as I think this is their main OP factor atm.
Just be carefull boys with crying for ridiculous nerfs, actually test it proprelly and see how its supposed to work.
As I said this unit needs a nerf, but lets not over do it its not gonna get us anh closer.
Feel free to redo those test, as Ive only been able to do it vs AI, as nobody else I knew was connected, but as someone of runs test a bit too much, I honestly think they are representative, for the infantry test some rounds RNG made a unit overperform and get 58 kills( doomflayers ) or 49 kills( gorebeast) or underperform like 18 kills for doomflayers and nothing really for gorebeast. I took them out so that we get a closer margin.
Here don't think I am defending doomflayers because I like seeing them OP, I never play skavens and only face them( I kind of hate facing their playstyle but eh !).
But I honestly believe that they do not deserve such a ridiculous nerf as the test shown in the OP were rigged or just extremely badly performed as me and other people have retried them and arrived at much different results
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2 · Disagree AgreeWhats funny is Goerbeast chariot is in CHAOS roster a roster that gets discounted price for Melee focused units and yet a unit from Skaven roster can compare to them stat wise, before we look at anything we should acknowledge that goerbeast chariots has -50 or -100g not accounted in its cost due to being in Chaos roster than lets discuss from there onwards.
As for the argument that doomflayers are only OP in a blob...please explain to me why would you NOT blob them? There is no reason at all not to.
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0 · Disagree AgreeThough I am not sure if Chaos gets buffs on all melee units, gorebeast are good, but zi never felt they were discounted. It might be true, but I felt that mainly Chaos Infantry had a discount
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1 · Disagree AgreeAnti-large heavy cav are just about the only thing that can tie them down properly.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeDoomflayers have the same "unit type" as other machines which can charge units but also have "sweeping" animations to fight in melee. Such as the Screaming Bell mount and Steam Tank, albeit these are FAR larger in scale.
Other chariots cannot output the same level of damage over time while in pitted combat as Doomflayers despite being the same price because that's not what they're meant to do.
Most chariots are made to charge in, and then move out. Dealing most of their damage of the charge and then cycling back again.
Doomflayers can certainly charge down a mob, but everything in their design states that they're meant to stay and fight and not cycle charge back like a regular chariot. This is shown by:
- Their +armor ONLY while in melee passive,
- "Donut attack" animation
- Their considerable smaller hitbox and low model count which makes bulldozing enemy models harder. (But also harder to shoot down)
(Of course both can and should be used to pin down other large units with their mass if the need arises).
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0 · Disagree AgreeHowever even single models on horses are not as hard for artillery or archers to hit. The hit box is overly small.
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0 · Disagree Agree