Hot-fix/Patch suggestion (long)

Lotus_Moon#2452 · April 2019

Hi All

In my opinion the current patch is both amazing and horrible at the same time, i love 95% of the new balance changes if we exclude the addition of the DLC which i feel totally breaks the current Multiplayer quick battles in very abusive way.

Biggest positives for me are the summoning changes and overall a lot of unused units got nice buffs (except vharghulf a buff!!...why?), the spell balance for magic missiles this patch was quite nice also.

Below post will be split into 2, a Hotfix section addressing the things that i feel are way OP or UP thus in need of hotfix in order for us to enjoy Multiplayer and a patch suggestion for next big patch which will focus on overall balance of the game.

Hotfix;

Doom-flayers - a game braking unit in its current instalment, i'm not sure if their hit box is bugged or was made as a late april fools joke that forgot to be recalled before the DLC relase.

Suggestion * -5 normal damage/-15 AP damage, -5 speed, +bigger it box in melee and from ranged.

Jezzails - i'm very confused how they can be seen as balanced by anyone who is not totally bias, a unit that is near immune to its counters and has 300m range, and is way to accurate.

Suggestion * -45m range, -30 armour, increase calibration area from 0.5 to 1.

rattling guns - I don't have the biggest issue with them if there is no poison or gutter runner nets in the army, but when there are, its totally Abusive when opponents infantry runs at 10 speed and cav at 20.

Suggestion * - 18% suppression effect

Ancient Salamander - unit capable of 2 shooting units while kitting away with great melee stats, i call it a flame cannon/steam tank fusion.

Suggestion * -10 speed, -25 armour +100g, +2MA/MD

Salamander hunting pack - Not the biggest offender of this patch but i do feel their speed should be reduced along with Ancient Slamander, but a unit of 24 models doing so much splash dmg is rather strong in some cases.

Suggestion * -5 speed, -20 armour, -14 Bonus v Large on missiles, +2MA/MD, +6 Weapon Strength (4ap/2normal).

Lord Kroak - The way he promotes blobs and in general his effectiveness is just too good, the fact you can get 2 greater arcane conduits + the combo of net and itza 3 is too good in my view.

Suggestion * +100 base cost, Itza 3 +2 WOM, Reduce cast range to 100m of all 3 spells (in TT he could only place it around himself).

Invocation of Nehek - continues to be the best spell in the game for over a year and is the main reason that VC and VP are overpowered currently, the myth that VC units need nehek to trade well is nothing but a myth or a lie that has been spread for as long as i can remember, i have tested VC units numerous times and its simply not true.

Suggestion * -3s duration

Those are my suggestions for a hotfix, now moving onto patch suggestions i will not go into detail reason for my suggestions but if you do question it than please feel free to ask specifics and i will reply, explaing my reason.

SUGGESTIONS FOR NEXT PATCH (NOT HOTFIX)

Greenskins
Doom Diver * -30 AP missile damage, +30 normal missile damage, +50g
Grimgor * +100 hp (on ultra), +20% model size, +300 mass
Giant * +6 Speed

Empire
Warrior Priest * Remove Scroll of Power
Empire Captain * +12 anti infantry (Be an anti infantry hero as opposed to Paladin who is anti large, it would give him his own identity).
Free Company Militia * +1ap missile damage, Add fire on the move or at the very least add fire on the move to the ROR version.
Crossbowmen * -25g
Steam Tank * -100g

Chaos
Chaos Lord * add Charmed Shield
Chaos Lord Dragon * +4MA/MD
Chaos Sorc Lord * +5ld
Giant * +6 Speed
Chaos Spawn * -100g
Forsaken * +5 LD, +2md, -25g
Chaos Knights * +2ap, +1ld
Chaos Knights Lances *-25g, +1ld

Dwarfs
All dwarf lords with exception of runelord * -100g
Thane * + Good item or Rune
Gyrobomber * -200g (and ROR)

Lizardmen *including hotfix changes
Red Crested Skinks * +25g (including ROR)
Cohert of Sotek * refuse to die made 1 use only (unbreakable and frenzy that cannot be lost is plenty to cover the gold difference)
Star Chamber Guardians * Either remove guardian or +150g
Ripperdactyl Riders * +bigger hit box, -6CB (including ROR)
Legion of Chaqua * +50g
The Thunderous One * reduce damage on his passive lightning by about 1/3.

Skaven *including hotfix changes
Ikit Claw * +100 base cost, +100 cost on flayer mount.
Council Guard * +100g
Blightscab's Plaguepack +75g
Natty Buboe's Sharpshooters * +100g (along with the changes in hotfix)
Plague Monk Censer Bearers * +5% Physical Resistance
Death Runners * +8 anti infantry
Hell Pit Abomination * +2MD, +7 Bonus v Large
Gutter Runners All variants * Their slowing net should be a castable ability that can only affect 1 unit at a time not an AOE auto toggle, -50g
Warlock Engineer * - Remove DOT armour

ALL Skaven Weapons Team Standardised at 50 Armour
Death Globe Bombardiers * -100g
Poison Wind Globadiers * -50g +3ld
Warpfire Thrower Weapons Team * +8LD, +5 range

Bestmen (not a typo)
Gorebull * - remove fly (gets knocked around too often and too far)
Cygor * -100g
Giant * +6 Speed
Chaos Spawn * -100g
Ungor Spearmen Herd * +4ld, +vanguard
Ungor Raiders * +1ap missile dmg
Gor RoR * +1MA

High Elves
Star of Avelorn * Another -10% healing.
Bolt Thrower * -50g, multi shot +2 anti infantry on multi shot per bolt
Loremaster * +5ld

Wood Elves
Orion * +vangaurd, -5MD
Hagbane tips * -1ap/+1 normal damage
Waywatchers * -6MD, -4Speed, +25m hawkish percision, +8 Bonus v Infantry -1s reload time, IF THIS IS NOT ENOUGH THAN -8hp, +10%missile resistance (with the HP nerf this should keep their effective HP in ranged duel at similar level).
Dryads * +2HP
Hawk Riders * +200 mass, -50g

Dark Elves
Bolt Thrower * -50g, +2 anti infantry on multi shot per bolt
Dark Riders * +1MA/MD, +1ap damage
Shades (all variants) * -50g

Bretonnia
Paladin * +12 bonus v Large, remove Guardian
Pelearms * -25g
Mounted yomen and archers * -25g
Knights Errant * +50g
Grail Knights * +100g
Blessed Treb * Slowing effect on shots, -50g
Men and spears at arms (shield ONLY) * -25g
The Companions of Quenelles * +100g, +Guardian

Vampire Counts *including hotfix changes
Banshee * +75g
Vharghulf * +100g, fix animations so he is not immune to damage from his counters, reduce mass so he cannot push through so easily.
Mortise Engine * Add limit of 1 in QB
Cairn Wraiths * +25g, + Perfect Vigour
Hex Wraiths * +25g, + Perfect Vigour
Zombies * +50g

Tomb Kings
Realm of Seouls * Ushabti summon attached to TK lord, range reduced to 100m, ALL TK lords -50g
Nehekhara Horsemen * +5CB, +50g
Tomb King Skeleton Warriors (all variants) +5ld

Norsca
Add caster Lord
Fimir Warriors (all variants) * +25g
ALL mammoths * -1000hp (on ultra)
Giant * +6 Speed

Vampire Pirates
Count Noctilus * less influence on power bar, -10md, moondail -50 range
Damed Paladin * +50g,+ Perfect Vigour
Mournguls * +100g
Deck Droppers (Handguns) * +50g
Zombie Pirate Deckhands Mob (all variants) *-9hp
Bloted Corps * -100g
Depth Guard (all variants) * +400HP (on ultra)

Spells

Invocation of Nehek * -3s duration (as stated in hotfix notes)
Raise Dead * -2 casts, -1 WOM
Raise Dead (Vampire Coast) * -1 cast, -1 WOM

Summon Manticore * -1WOM

Awakening of the Wood * -1WOM
Regrowth * -2 WOM, remove restore vigour
Flesh to Stone * Remake into AOE with appropriate WOM/Duration Adjustment

Warp Lightning * +1 WOM
Skaven Summon * -2 casts

Howling Warpgale * -15m range of affect

Wind Blast * +2sec wind up time

Doombolt * -2 WOM from both versions

Doom & Darkness * -1WOM

Fiery Convocation * Reduce wind up time by 3s

Light of Battle * Increase Duration to 86s

Plague of Rust *
normal version +2WOM, incresse effect to -60 armour
overcast * +6 WOM, Add 40m AOE

Transmutation of Lead overcast * -2 WOM

Usirian’s Incantation of Vengeance * -2 WOM

Withering * -1 WOM
Okkam’s Mindrazor * -1 WOM

Summon Cygor * -2 or 3 WOM

This is my view what would bring balance to MP; I would like to add few more unit restrictions but i will leave it out of this post.

If you wonder why a certain change i'm happy to explain it in detail just let me know which one.

another505 · April 2019

Not sure why companion gets guardian.I guess there is no other ROR to fit the bill. I dont mind
Bret infantry are fine, not sure why you want to buff the shield one and polearms further.
Rather see Knight Errant 725 and inf remain the same.
Prefer GK to 1650, get GG's health. More of consistency sake. and allows more space for Lionhearted to get picked.
GG to 1550.

Paladin * +12 bonus v Large, remove Guardian
Mounted yomen and archers * -25g
Blessed Treb * Slowing effect on shots, -50g
Yes. Though prefer paladin get another ability instead to increase some depth for bret variety.

Empire
Which Hunter * Accusation add recharge in melee condition.
Sure
Free Company Militia * +1ap missile damage, Add fire on the move or at the very least add fire on the move to the ROR version.
Yes to 1AP, no to fire on the move. Fine with ROR with fire on the move. Rarely see them.

Dwarfs
All dwarf lords with exception of runelord * -50g
Would say -100.

Loupi#8512 · April 2019

Agree with most of these changes, DLC added a whole lot of OP stuff.

A few things I would change/add:

For orion I think he should go up to 75 speed with +150 gold and your suggestions. The cloak of isha also doesn't have quite enough influence on balance of power. What he really need is a total rework but I'll save that for later...

For waywatchers I disagree. That's a massive nerf, what they need is a shift from huge alpha damage potential to more moderate damage over time. I'd suggest -1.5s reload time, +4 ammo, -3AP. This keeps the total damage the same (slight reduction) and keeps the damage over 10 seconds the same but reduces the AP damage per volley by 15%. Also increase range of hawkish precision.

For hawkriders, keep prices the same, but in addition to more mass, give them fear and vanguard.

Hagbane tips: I don't think the AP swap is actually going to be OP, but I guess +3AP is a pretty big change.

Dryads: yep, they could also use +1AP, they have 2 less AP than waywatchers in melee!

Howling warpgale. It shouldn't affect units that fly into the area after it has been cast. 5 WOM is too cheap too so increase WOM by 1 or 2.

ArchonPrime · April 2019

I want to talk about chaos here.

In my opinion, CW with shield needs some love more than forsaken,maybe +2MD.

forsaken have a good position afterall,fast,deadly charge,immu to psych but also fragile.

CW have bad position in Chaos already,but other faction's shield infs can also despised them,LB with shield have high LS,ITP,excitation,GG and TG are undying,cause fear of cause and nearly unbreakable.Saurus have crazy high WS make them good against any type of enemy.

Ironically,in all these shield infs,CW can only beat TG,but lose to other else(LB need upgrade to lv3).Although their brothers CW-GW have no special ability too,but CW-GW have almost best cost/performance in GW infs.

CW with halberd have same problem too,but not that serious,+1MD will be very good.

Lotus_Moon#2452 · April 2019

another505 said:
Not sure why companion gets guardian.I guess there is no other ROR to fit the bill. I dont mind
Bret infantry are fine, not sure why you want to buff the shield one and polearms further.
Rather see Knight Errant 725 and inf remain the same.
Prefer GK to 1650, get GG's health. More of consistency sake. and allows more space for Lionhearted to get picked.
GG to 1550.

Paladin * +12 bonus v Large, remove Guardian
Mounted yomen and archers * -25g
Blessed Treb * Slowing effect on shots, -50g
Yes. Though prefer paladin get another ability instead to increase some depth for bret variety.

Empire
Which Hunter * Accusation add recharge in melee condition.
Sure
Free Company Militia * +1ap missile damage, Add fire on the move or at the very least add fire on the move to the ROR version.
Yes to 1AP, no to fire on the move. Fine with ROR with fire on the move. Rarely see them.

Dwarfs
All dwarf lords with exception of runelord * -50g
Would say -100.

Yeh i wanted Guardian in the roster and was not sure which unit should have it, i would like to see ROR Grail guardians be made with Just Guardian that would make a lot of sense.

As for the -25g on infantry i feel its too much for them to pay 25% more gold 75g to upgrade to a shield, i feel fro very cheap infantry +50g is enough of a tax for a shield.

With errant they are just too strong at current gold cost in my view.

I don't disagree with the Dwarf suggestion but i though with the buffs they got this patch -100g might be too much.

Loupi_ said:
Agree with most of these changes, DLC added a whole lot of OP stuff.

A few things I would change/add:

For orion I think he should go up to 75 speed with +150 gold and your suggestions. The cloak of isha also doesn't have quite enough influence on balance of power. What he really need is a total rework but I'll save that for later...

For waywatchers I disagree. That's a massive nerf, what they need is a shift from huge alpha damage potential to more moderate damage over time. I'd suggest -1.5s reload time, +4 ammo, -3AP. This keeps the total damage the same (slight reduction) and keeps the damage over 10 seconds the same but reduces the AP damage per volley by 15%. Also increase range of hawkish precision.

For hawkriders, keep prices the same, but in addition to more mass, give them fear and vanguard.

Hagbane tips: I don't think the AP swap is actually going to be OP, but I guess +3AP is a pretty big change.

Dryads: yep, they could also use +1AP, they have 2 less AP than waywatchers in melee!

Howling warpgale. It shouldn't affect units that fly into the area after it has been cast. 5 WOM is too cheap too so increase WOM by 1 or 2.

Agree on Orion but i just though, get vanguard first as its most improtant that ask for more.

With WW yes its a big nerf which in my view they totally deserve, I think with my suggestion they could use +1 ammo, my aim is to make them much easier to shut down, which i find to be the biggest issue witht hem.

Good point on the drayds.

Hawkriders i'm not sure if they need fear or vangaurd, too much vanguard i think they would benefit more from -50g than those two.

ArchonPrime · April 2019

And:Council Guard * +200g....

srsly....?I'm not a skaven player,and i know unbreakable AL unit with guardian seems broken,but they are stormvermin afterall,especially if CA really delete dot armor of Warlock Engineer,skaven blob won't do much.I think it's better to choose one of these two.It's not necessary to nerf all to the ground.

ArchonPrime · April 2019

And CA fix those Undying range units can melee while shooting plz.its' so disgusting.

Lotus_Moon#2452 · April 2019

ArchonPrime said:
I want to talk about chaos here.

In my opinion, CW with shield needs some love more than forsaken,maybe +2MD.

forsaken have a good position afterall,fast,deadly charge,immu to psych but also fragile.

CW have bad position in Chaos already,but other faction's shield infs can also despised them,LB with shield have high LS,ITP,excitation,GG and TG are undying,cause fear of cause and nearly unbreakable.Saurus have crazy high WS make them good against any type of enemy.

Ironically,in all these shield infs,CW can only beat TG,but lose to other else(LB need upgrade to lv3).Although their brothers CW-GW have no special ability too,but CW-GW have almost best cost/performance in GW infs.

CW with halberd have same problem too,but not that serious,+1MD will be very good.

I dont agree personally about CW shields here, i see them in almost all match-ups where as i dont see forsaken at all, i think buffing a unit thats picked near 100% of the time doesnt make the roster more balanced it just makes other picks even worse.

I do believe chaos maybe needs other buffs also, but from what i seen CW shield are not in need of any buffs, for that matter i dont think any "chaos warriors" in its name, infantry is in need of buffs currently.

ArchonPrime said:
And:Council Guard * +200g....

srsly....?I'm not a skaven player,and i know unbreakable AL units with guardian seems broken,but they are stormvermin afterall,especially if CA really delete dot armor of Warlock Engineer,skaven blob won't do much.I think it's better to choose one of these two.It's not necessary to nerf all to the ground.

Yes +200g is fair in my view here is why;

Rank 9 SV halberds = 1370g
Council Guard = 1300
+Guardian, +Unbreakable (30 ld more than rank 9 SV).

Unbreakable is an amazing ability on low LD troops, especially on low LD elite troops, the reason Stromvermin are balanced to begin with is because of low ld, unbreakable removes that, further more they have guardian, which is a strong synergy in a skaven roster as they usually take at least 2 characters, now one way to get rid of guardian is to break the unit that has it so the charecters do not benefit from it, this ofcourse is impossible due to the unit being unbrakable, so your option is to kill those charecters and what better way than with large units, but ofcourse council guard have halberds.

I think the fact they have Guardian and Unbreakable is crazy strong synergy to begin with, than you see that its in skaven roster and you realise they have the perfect ability synergy for the roster they are in, i do think at 1500 they be strong and well balanced.

ArchonPrime · April 2019

CW shield on almost all match up...?not the CW-GW...?if so,I hope they have a good winning rate because for me I haven't seen them for a long time..and i say 100% frankly here,i will switch CW with GG if i have a chance,even i can't heal GG as chaos...and i don't think high using rate=strong,in WH1 early version you and iru use WW in almost any WE match too also have good wining rate,but no one think WW are strong in WH1...sometimes it's more like no choice

About Council guard,I know they are far better than a normaly LV9 SV halberd,but original SV halberd are the worst halberd infs in this game...and there are no ROR units pirce=lv9 original unit price+ability price..maybe 1300 for CG is OP,but we can start at +50g or 100g..

Lotus_Moon#2452 · April 2019

ArchonPrime said:
CW shield on almost all match up...?not the CW-GW...?if so,I hope they have a good winning rate because for me I haven't seen them for a long time..and i say 100% frankly here,i will switch CW with GG if i have a chance,even i can't GG as chaos...

About Council guard,I know they are far better than a normaly LV9 SV halberd,but original SV halberd are the worst halberd infs in this game...and there are no ROR units pirce=lv9 original unit price+ability price..maybe 1300 for CG is OP,but we can start at +50g or 100g..

+50g or 100g is simply not enough, i know rank 9 gold cost is not a good indication of ROR unit, but lets compare them to rank 1 SVH

+300g

+40ld
+5ma
+12MD
+unbreakable (which means immune to fear and terror also)
+guardian

Unbreakable and the extra stats easly cover the 300g gap cost, than it just depends how much value you put on guardian, i normally rate it as 150g ability but in a skaven roster and attached to unbrakable unit i wwould rate it as extra 50g, hence my +200g suggestion.

If you do want to be on the safe side than +150g is the minimum, the unit is simply to perfect in Skaven roster.

As for CW yes i do feel i see them in all match-ups, the units i do not see are Chaos knights, chaos monsters, forsaken. I actually feel Chaos lord on dragon and in general could use big buff, i just couldn't think of what kind of buff rather than generic cost reduction.

@ArchonPrime what would you suggest to buff Chaos lord (all variants), i have not seen him used for a very long time.

I just tried opening chaos games in last tournament and you tube and i didn't find one without CWS in it.

ArchonPrime · April 2019

Nahhhh...I still think 1500 is tooooo expensive...but I'll give up about that,time will tell.

yst#1879 · April 2019

This is beyond idoicy. Complete out of touch is to the least.

While frikking wood elves getting such mad buffs and not a single fanbois talked about it

Suggestion * -45m range, -30 armour, increase calibration area from 0.5 to 1. Worst suggestion ive ever seen in the entire 4 years of warhammer existence. Totally out of the loop of balance, fanbois witch hunt to the finest, they want the already frikking expensive unit to do like 200ap per volley lol while waywatch can easily deal over 600+ ap even after missing 40% of the shots, tripling the dmg.

This has to top the most selfish thread ive ever seen thus far. Completely and utterly destroying the game.

-$75 to eagle bolt lol....
vargulf +$200
Zombie Pirate Deckhands Mob (all variants) *-9hp - epic lol, a $300 SWORD that cant even beat a $250 SPEAR

waste of time reading tbh. Legendary fail, this does nothing but ruin the mass majority of the players in mp significantly favouring the few selfish extremists. Its so bad it cant in anyway classify as a balance thread

ArchonPrime · April 2019

Lotus_Moon said:

@ArchonPrime what would you suggest to buff Chaos lord (all variants), i have not seen him used for a very long time.

.

I think the problem is that they are vulnerable,no healing, hard to show their value,and chaos have no good air support...maybe +5LS for Chaos sorcerer lord,and +4MD for Chaos Lord/Chaos sorcerer lord on dragon.

yst#1879 · April 2019

ArchonPrime said:

Lotus_Moon said:

@ArchonPrime what would you suggest to buff Chaos lord (all variants), i have not seen him used for a very long time.

.
I think the problem is that they are vulnerable,no healing, hard to show their value,and chaos have no good air support...maybe +5LS for Chaos sorcerer lord,and +4MD for Chaos Lord/Chaos sorcerer lord on dragon.

Meh complete deviation and distraction really. No one is foolish enough to think this has anything to do with BUT skaven, liz and undead nerfs. Dont bother about the side chaos distraction really, everyone knows its not the aim of certain grp of ppl.

They r as mundane as phophetess or whichever generic garbage lords no one takes. This is like shifting the talk to generic orc warboss which one one ever takes

Disposable Hero · April 2019

Well done Lotus, feels very spot on. Maybe vargulf doesn't need such a cost increase if the other issues are solved with its animations, otherwise nothing struck me as controversial really.

+ 1

Lotus_Moon#2452 · April 2019

yst said:
This is beyond idoicy. Complete out of touch is to the least.

While frikking wood elves getting such mad buffs and not a single fanbois talked about it

Suggestion * -45m range, -30 armour, increase calibration area from 0.5 to 1. Worst suggestion ive ever seen in the entire 4 years of warhammer existence. Totally out of the loop of balance, fanbois witch hunt to the finest, they want the already frikking expensive unit to do like 200ap per volley lol while waywatch can easily deal over 600+ ap even after missing 40% of the shots, tripling the dmg.

This has to top the most selfish thread ive ever seen thus far. Completely and utterly destroying the game.

-$75 to eagle bolt lol....
vargulf +$200
Zombie Pirate Deckhands Mob (all variants) *-9hp - epic lol, a $300 SWORD that cant even beat a $250 SPEAR

waste of time reading tbh. Legendary fail, this does nothing but ruin the mass majority of the players in mp significantly favouring the few selfish extremists. Its so bad it cant in anyway classify as a balance thread

Please be polite or don't post, im happy discuss in non aggressive matter.

Reason for Bolt thrower suggestion is because currently you overpay for Multi shot

Dwarf one is 550 g
Elven ones are 700g

You pay 150 for multi shot which is not good at all.

-75g aims to breach that gap, other option could be -150g remove multi shot, which i think would be perfect.

Actually i can't be assed to get into discussion with you coz all you will do is troll the post.

Lotus_Moon#2452 · April 2019

Disposable Hero said:
Well done Lotus, feels very spot on. Maybe vargulf doesn't need such a cost increase if the other issues are solved with its animations, otherwise nothing struck me as controversial really.

+ 1

Thats true, perhaps a bit overreaction on Vharghulf i will tone it down to +100g for now, i think the recent buff was totally not needed.

ArchonPrime said:

Lotus_Moon said:

@ArchonPrime what would you suggest to buff Chaos lord (all variants), i have not seen him used for a very long time.

.
I think the problem is that they are vulnerable,no healing, hard to show their value,and chaos have no good air support...maybe +5LS for Chaos sorcerer lord,and +4MD for Chaos Lord/Chaos sorcerer lord on dragon.

Yeh those are good suggestion i will add them in, what about a shield item the same one that Paladin has?

Disposable Hero · April 2019

One thing I miss in that list:

Warrior priest scroll of power either removed or the two area buffs need +24 second cooldown so that you can no longer fire them off back to back.

Cukie251 · April 2019

+100 on GK in exchange for minor infantry and treb buffs? Big cup on nope there.

IMO you are trying to accomplish too much with this thread. You are throwing out massive base cost nerfs/buffs to units from all factions with minimal explanation. If you want to talk about a hot fix, target the egregious overperforms and leave the rest for later.

Lotus_Moon#2452 · April 2019

Cukie251 said:
+100 on GK in exchange for minor infantry and treb buffs? Big cup on nope there.

IMO you are trying to accomplish too much with this thread. You are throwing out massive base cost nerfs/buffs to units from all factions with minimal explanation. If you want to talk about a hot fix, target the egregious overperforms and leave the rest for later.

Only first part is hotfix suggestion only about 5 of them with expiation rest are just next patch suggestion not aimed at the hotfix at all. I edited it so its more clear.

GK have been OP for a long time now, now that brets are getting other buffs they deserve the nerf, its also why its accompanied with +12 bonus v Large to Paladins to give Brets alternatives in dealing with large monsters.

Godefroy_de_Bouillon · April 2019

Lotus_Moon said:
Hi All

In my opinion the current patch is both amazing and horrible at the same time, i love 95% of the new balance changes if we exclude the addition of the DLC which i feel totally breaks the current Multiplayer quick battles in very abusive way.

Biggest positives for me are the summoning changes and overall a lot of unused units got nice buffs (except vharghulf a buff!!...why?), the spell balance for magic missiles this patch was quite nice also.

Below post will be split into 2, a Hotfix section addressing the things that i feel are way OP or UP thus in need of hotfix in order for us to enjoy Multiplayer and a patch suggestion for next big patch which will focus on overall balance of the game.

Hotfix;
Doom-flayers - a game braking unit in its current instalment, i'm not sure if their hit box is bugged or was made as a late april fools joke that forgot to be recalled before the DLC relase.

Suggestion * -10 normal damage/-25 AP damage, -5 speed, +bigger it box in melee and from ranged, "the best defence" should be changed to missile resistance in combat in my view but thats not too important"

Jezzails - i'm very confused how they can be seen as balanced by anyone who is not totally bias, a unit that is near immune to its counters and has 300m range, and is way to accurate.

Suggestion * -45m range, -30 armour, increase calibration area from 0.5 to 1.

rattling guns - I don't have the biggest issue with them if there is no poison or gutter runner nets in the army, but when there are, its totally Abusive when opponents infantry runs at 10 speed and cav at 20.

Suggestion * - 18% suppression effect.

Ancient Salamander - unit capable of 2 shooting units while kitting away with great melee stats, i call it a flame cannon/steam tank fusion.

Suggestion * -10 speed, +150g

Salamander hunting pack - Not the biggest offender of this patch but i do feel their speed should be reduced along with Ancient Slamander, but a unit of 24 models doing so much splash dmg is rather strong in some cases.

Suggestion * -5 speed, -3 normal explosion dmg / -1 ap explosion dmg.

Lord Kroak - The way he promotes blobs and in general his effectiveness is just too good, the fact you can get 2 greater arcane conduits + the combo of net and itza 3 is too good in my view.

Suggestion * +100 base cost, itza 1 - no friendly damage, itza 2 - 50% friendly damage, itza 3 - 100% friendly damage, +supreme shield of the old ones shuold NOT stack with shield of the old ones, itza 3 +2 WOM.

Invocation of Nehek - continues to be the best spell in the game for over a year and is the main reason that VC and VP are overpowered currently, the myth that VC units need nehek to trade well is nothing but a myth or a lie that has been spread for as long as i can remember, i have tested VC units numerous times and its simply not true.

Suggestion * -3s duration

Those are my suggestions for a hotfix, now moving onto patch suggestions i will not go into detail reason for my suggestions but if you do question it than please feel free to ask specifics and i will reply, explaing my reason.
SUGGESTIONS FOR NEXT PATCH (NOT HOTFIX)
Greenskins
Doom Diver * -30 AP missile damage, +30 normal missile damage or if kept in current state +50g
Grimgor * +100 hp (on ultra), +20% model size, +300 mass
Giant * +6 Speed

Empire
Which Hunter * Accusation add recharge in melee condition.
Warrior Pries * Remove Scroll of Power
Free Company Militia * +1ap missile damage, Add fire on the move or at the very least add fire on the move to the ROR version.

Chaos
Chaos Lord * add Charmed Shield
Chaos Lord Dragon * +4MA/MD
Chaos Sorc Lord * +5ld
Giant * +6 Speed
Chaos Spawn * -100g
Forsaken * +5 LD, +2md, -25g
Chaos Knights * +2ap, +1ld
Chaos Knights Lances *-25g, +1ld

Dwarfs
All dwarf lords with exception of runelord * -50g
Gyrobomber * -200g (and ROR)

Lizardmen *including hotfix changes
Red Crested Skinks * +50g (including ROR)
Cohert of Sotek * refuse to die made 1 use only (unbreakable and frenzy that cannot be lost is plenty to cover the gold difference)
Star Chamber Guardians * Either remove guardian or +150g
Ripperdactyl Riders * +bigger hit box, -6CB (including ROR)
Legion of Chaqua * +50g
The Thunderous One * reduce damage on his passive lightning by about 1/3.

Skaven *including hotfix changes
Ikit Claw * +100 base cost, +100 cost of flayer mount.
Council Guard * +150g
Blightscab's Plaguepack +75g
Natty Buboe's Sharpshooters +100g (along with the changes in hotfix)
Gutter Runners All variants * Their slowing net should a ca-stable ability that can only affect 1 unit at a time not an AOE auto toggle, -50g
Warlock Engineer * - Remove DOT armour

Bestmen (not a typo)
Gorebull * - remove fly (gets knocked around too often and too far)
Cygor * -100g
Giant * +6 Speed
Chaos Spawn * -100g
Ungor Spearmen Herd * +vanguard
Ungor Raiders * +10 range

High Elves
Star of Avelorn * Another -10% healing.
Bolt Thrower * -75g
Loremaster * +5ld

Wood Elves
Orion * +vangaurd, -5MD
Hagbane tips * -1ap/+1 normal damage
Waywatchers * -6MD, -4Speed, +25m hawkish percision, +8 Bonus v Infantry -1s reload time, IF THIS IS NOT ENOUGH THAN -8hp, +10%missile resistance (with the HP nerf this should keep their effective HP in ranged duel at similar level).
Dryads * +2HP
Hawk Riders * +200 mass, -50g

Dark Elves
Bolt Thrower * -75g
Dark Riders * +1MA/MD, +1ap damage
Shades (all variants) * -50g

Bretonnia
Paladin * +12 bonus v Large, remove Guardian
Pelearms * -25g
Mounted yomen and archers * -25g
Knights Errant * +50g
Grail Knights * +100g
Blessed Treb * Slowing effect on shots, -50g
Men and spears at arms (shield ONLY) * -25g
The Companions of Quenelles * +100g, +Guardian

Vampire Counts *including hotfix changes
Vharghulf * +100g, fix animations so he is not immune to damage from his counters, reduce mass so he cannot push through so easily.
Mortise Engine * Add limit of 1 in QB
Cairn Wraiths * +2md, -50g
Hexwraiths * +2md, -50g
Zombies * +50g

Tomb Kings
Realm of Seouls * Ushabti summon attached to TK lord, range reduced to 100m, ALL TK lords -50g
Nehekhara Horsemen * +100g

Norsca
Add caster Lord
Fimir Warriors (all variants) * +25g
ALL mammoths * -1000hp (on ultra)
Giant * +6 Speed

Vampire Pirates
Count Noctilus * less influence on power bar, -10md, moondail -50 range
Mournguls * +100g
Deck Droppers (Handguns) * +50g
Zombie Pirate Deckhands Mob (all variants) *-9hp
Bloted Corps * -100g
Depth Guard (all variants) * +400HP (on ultra)

Spells

Invocation of Nehek * -3s duration (as stated in hotfix notes)
Raise Dead * -2 casts, -1 WOM
Raise Dead (Vampire Coast) * -1 cast, -1 WOM

Summon Manticore * -2WOM

Awakening of the Wood * -1WOM
Regrowth * -2 WOM, remove restore vigour
Flesh to Stone * Remake into AOE with appropriate WOM/Duration Adjustment

Warp Lightning * +1 WOM
Skaven Summon * -2 casts

Howling Warpgale * -15m range of affect

Wind Blast * +2sec wind up time

Doombolt * -2 WOM from both versions

Doom & Darkness * Add -18% speed debuf effect

Fiery Convocation * Reduce wind up time by 3s

Light of Battle * Increase Duration to 86s

Plague of Rust *
normal version +2WOM, incresse effect to -60 armour
overcast * +6 WOM, Add 40m AOE

Transmutation of Lead overcast * -2 WOM

Usirian’s Incantation of Vengeance * -2 WOM

Withering * -1 WOM
Okkam’s Mindrazor * -1 WOM

Summon Cygor * -1WOM

This is my view what would bring balance to MP; I would like to add few more unit restrictions but i will leave it out of this post.

If you wonder why a certain change i'm happy to explain it in detail just let me know which one.

agreed

Ekonaii · April 2019

Agree with almost everything on your list.

The few things I'd argue with are:

Nehekara Horsemen +100g. I think 750g would be too much for them, +50g to make them 700g would be better imo.

Men and Spearmen at Arms with shields: -25g. I don't think this is a warranted buff. The melee defense that those units receive from the shield alone is worth the 75g. Same thing with Empire spearmen and they pay 75g for a bronze shield while men and spearmen at arms get a silver shield.

Lastly, I don't think that RoR questing knights is the ideal unit to give guardian too. But I think its likely to be the best option after removing it from Paladins. Like you said, I think having an RoR Grail Guardian unit that has guardian would be great. What do you think about giving guardian to the Green Knight?

#20766 · April 2019

Occasionally good concepts for buffs, sullied by an undercurrent of bias.

Godefroy_de_Bouillon · April 2019

maybe give paladins +5 LD too? I mean the bravest of the brave have LD just slightly above KE? :>

EvilPanda#8470 · April 2019

Love most of the suggestions. I'll add a couple change to BM part.i think they need desperate help against terror and some SE

At least -50 gold on minos (base variant)

+15 range instead of +10 on ungor raiders to match the range of some easy to abuse units like deck droppers and others skirmishers cav/flyers

Maybe +2 CB on Ungor herds since they are paying to much for stalk+vanguard and are trash in melee. But if spearmen would get vanguard as well would be beneficial for them as well and they will become more usable (you can ambush with them without fearing losing 400 gold in a charge or random cav)

Cygor summon: why only -1 if manticore summon gets -2?it's clear now that manticore summon is already decent while cygor is trashed...i think this spells need either -2 WOM at least or +30/40 seconds(two more boulders)

I would like a little buff on lore of wilds. Either rework spells to make it more versatile(viletide should be a magic missiles),or lower cost (mantle of Ghorros cost 200+) or adjust/tweaks to others (make traito kin able to di what is written on the card and damage single entities)

Then some update to BM lords but i think this thread is only about unit right @lotus_moon ?

EDIT: there are also two oversight (i think they are,at least) 1)+4 LD on unshielded ungor spears to match the shielded variant and +1 MA on Gor Herd shield ROR to match rank 9 stats of regular Gor (few patches ago Gor receive +1 MA but the RoR was forgotten)

Reym#7442 · April 2019

I agree overall, maybe I would change a bit some numbers but that's about it.

The only exception is the witch hunter's accusation.
His debuff is indeed strong but got a fairly low range (75m) when you had the fact that he is forced to remain on foot it simply means this buff will truly be usefull in defensive-ish set ups.
On top of that he is simply not a melee heroe with his 36 MA 34 MD and 330 WS as well as 2766 HP with some 30 armor.
He will simply be too squishy against a lot of races.

And yeah sorry since he is a range heroe I want him to shoot his 50 bullets, not swinging his fancy but yet mediocre magic rapier around. Adding such condition simply create the heroe with the less synergy between his ability and his stats.

To me the change for accusation could look more like + 30 sec CD (if you indeed have a problem with the cooldown) + 25 meters maybe you could implement max uses (2?) instead of adding CD.

Lotus_Moon#2452 · April 2019

Markrox said:
Occasionally good concepts for buffs, sullied by an undercurrent of bias.

Which suggestion are "sullied by an undercurrent of bias"? Care to specify so i have to opportunity to explain my reasoning behind them or do you preffer to derail the thread?

Godefroy_de_Bouillon said:
maybe give paladins +5 LD too? I mean the bravest of the brave have LD just slightly above KE? :>

Yeah i could see this be a good change or allow to get immune to psyhology and magical attacks as a grail vow for 50g.

Gilgamesh1 said:
Love most of the suggestions. I'll add a couple change to BM part.i think they need desperate help against terror and some SE

At least -50 gold on minos (base variant)

+15 range instead of +10 on ungor raiders to match the range of some easy to abuse units like deck droppers and others skirmishers cav/flyers

Maybe +2 CB on Ungor herds since they are paying to much for stalk+vanguard and are trash in melee. But if spearmen would get vanguard as well would be beneficial for them as well and they will become more usable (you can ambush with them without fearing losing 400 gold in a charge or random cav)

Cygor summon: why only -1 if manticore summon gets -2?it's clear now that manticore summon is already decent while cygor is trashed...i think this spells need either -2 WOM at least or +30/40 seconds(two more boulders)

I would like a little buff on lore of wilds. Either rework spells to make it more versatile(viletide should be a magic missiles),or lower cost (mantle of Ghorros cost 200+) or adjust/tweaks to others (make traito kin able to di what is written on the card and damage single entities)

Then some update to BM lords but i think this thread is only about unit right @lotus_moon ?

I still feel cygor summon is better than manticore one as i explained in anothher thread. Totally against what you suggest for it, (have a read of my response on another thread to it)

I dont have string view on minions currently so -50g could be justified.

+15 range is getting into damgeroys territory without different changes, how much ap their missiles have? Maybe that could be adjusted.

For lore of wild i didnt add changes because i want to see how the cygor nerfs affect it, i feel cygor summon was so OP for so long that people never used other spells in that lore.

Im not against buffs to other BM units but im not sure which ones are underperforming maybe 2hand weapon gors need a CB buff.

BM lords do need item adjustments i feel, their items need buffs thats my biggest thing other than that they feel balanced, perhaps with the summon nerfs the chaos spawn from enamy unit can be targetable again and not auto cast anymore.

#20766 · April 2019

I'm not trying to derail the thread, as I said there are some good things in here.

The problem arises when you try to make 100 changes instead of 5. You move from "necessary" to "personally appealing". Stick to the mentality you had for the hotfix.

CatholicAlcoholic#6232 · April 2019

In case of Kroak I think CA won't remove the no-friendly fire aspect, since they probably won't remove features for multiplayer balance.

Maybe a better fix would be to increase its casting time, right now the damage radius is quite big and not really that easy to dodge. Since it does no friendly damage its perfectly viable to cast it on a unit that you've already enveloped in order to prevent it from fleeing.

As for HE's Boltthrower (and I guess DE's as well) I would much prefer it if the multi shot would actually do something at some point instead of it getting cheaper. There are already so many people wanting to nerf them because of their artillery sniping potential and making them cheaper won't really help the current fact that they are positively atrocious against infantry.

Also the TK's screaming skull catapult is still utter garbage, a bit more damage and and a decent bit more accuracy would really help.

AristodemosII · April 2019

Wow I must say I am positively surprised by this threat, I've seen a ton of great suggestions, arguments and responses, and only 2 troll posts.

Lotus I hope you see my answer within the mess of the forum (would have sent you a discord pm but I think it's more worth it if everybody can see it).

First be said I agree with *most* of your changes, as well as the idea of making a hotfix and a patch separately. Especially I like the ideas you have in mind for Bretonnia, Vampires, BM and WE; And pretty much all spell change suggestions you made were amazing.

But I couldn't help but recognizing a certain tendency (won't call it bias) that seemed to have clouded your judgement. With the new content (==> hotfix section) you are more than eager to come up with the nerfhammer (like doomflayers, you suggested a reduction in weapon damage, AP damage, speed and hitbox AND special abilities), whereas with longer existing stuff that is broken too you're more careful and calculating (like nehek just -3s duration, for the strongest spell in the game).
Generally I don't like people saying "we can't say anything about the new patch until we've played it", because obviously we can spot OP things simply by watching 2 players use them (like in the everchosen), but I still do think that you're overreacting here, the hotfix should be smaller buffs than what you suggested.

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