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Beastmen and Wood Elves Content Drought

blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 936
edited April 2019 in General Discussion
After logging about 450 hours into Total Warhammer 2 it's clear that longstanding races, Beastmen and Wood Elves are getting left in the dust.

Wood Elves have a pitiful 2 Legendary Lords and a frustrating unique campaign mechanic while Beastmen have the smallest roster in the entire game (with Wood Elves coming in second). While I'm sure Chaos Warriors will be expanded in game 3, I'm worried that CA will not give these factions any more attention. As well as having totally underwhelming campaign experiences, both races are on the verge of multiplayer redundancy due to the sheer amount of content other factions enjoy. While Lizardmen now have strong tool for any problem, Skaven have been turned into dominant ranged specialists and even Greenskins have a giant roster, Wood Elves are becoming highly predictable and Beastmen have become incredibly easy to counter, they have recently lost a ton of viability due to their limited options.

Vampire Counts recently got a swathe of new lords. While the Ghorgon or the Jabberslythe would be hard to animate, CA could easily produce a Doombull, a Wargor, a Great Bray Shaman, Tuskgor Chariots/Chariot Mounts (using Boar Chariot assets) and marked Bestigors. This would be the work of a moment for game developers, as modders have proven. A new Legendary Lord for Wood Elves, who are missing plenty of named characters, would also be no trouble compared to, say, the recent Bretonnia update.

A content update for both these factions would generate sales of their respective DLCs, and I'm sure people would even buy a Lord pack for them if CA don't like modelling units without a new source of revenue to go with them. Personally, I'm losing interest and feeling frustrated as a result of content/power creep, bloated new factions are overshadowing classic ones. I hope a few people in the forums and, especially, at CA feel the same way.

Comments

  • dodge33cymrudodge33cymru Registered Users Posts: 3,193
    Whilst I agree with the general sentiment (not big new monsters, but an elven LL for WE and tuskgor chariots for Beastmen would be nice), this was always going to be the case for the earlier factions.

    Power creep is the main thing I'm worried about, because surely as players are more experienced with the game the new additions should create more challenge rather than more ease, but it appears to take the opposite approach. That said, both WE and Beastmen are averagely competitive in multiplayer, so I can't really complain - I don't believe campaign 'balance' is necessary personally.

    A question for you OP: would them making any of these changes generate enough new sales of that content to warrant the investment?

    My suggestion, let's pick this discussion up when Game 3 is out - there's not much point in doing this for Game 2 now IMO when it would just continue through Game 3's life cycle.

    Personally, I'm hoping both of these races are included in the base Game 3 in some way, so no DLC is needed to play them but they would be able to develop further DLC for them without it being "DLC for DLC" (and same for any Game 1 races).
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 936

    A question for you OP: would them making any of these changes generate enough new sales of that content to warrant the investment?

    If the content patches were just applied directly to the DLC, I believe that if they were coupled with a well advertised Steam Sale, they would make a considerable profit. A more profitable policy would be to release a new Lord Pack - I have no doubt that Lord Packs absolutely print money, this could have been behind the decisions to stick to them exclusively from now on. If it came with a ton of content and perhaps alongside a sale of the base DLC, I would be happy to buy it.

    As for multiplayer, I think with this update we have begun to stray into the new balance problem of an overload of options for certain factions. If more "normal" Lord Packs are coming, Warhammer 2 starting factions will have tools to predict and counter everything the limited factions can bring. This has already badly, badly hurt the Dwarves, who feel incredibly weak now that the new factions have so many counters. I think Beastmen and (to a lesser extent) Wood Elves are going to slip towards the bottom of the tier list as well, Beasts in particular.

    I totally agree with you about everything else, and I wouldn't mind waiting till Warhammer 3. But, if we want game 1 races to be overhauled in game 3, I think now's the time to make noise.
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 11,653
    I'd wager that something gets added somewhere down the line. When that is is anybody's guess though. Both have somewhat lacklustre tech and mechanics. I don't personally have a problem with the rosters finding them generally fun but I wouldn't mind a unit or two for especially the Beastmen.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,657
    Yea I wish CA would implement the easy wins. Slangors, wargors, khorngors etc air fairly easy to implement
  • Harddrive44Harddrive44 Registered Users Posts: 617
    Wood Elves really just need a FLC LL and some missing units and they would be alright...

    Oh, and get rid of amber....

    Oh, and get rid of the horrible outpost system....


    Oh, and...

    Nvm- They probably need more than this.
  • TalmoreanTalmorean Registered Users Posts: 1,487
    Izariel said:

    Wood Elves really just need a FLC LL and some missing units and they would be alright...

    Oh, and get rid of amber....

    Oh, and get rid of the horrible outpost system....


    Oh, and...

    Nvm- They probably need more than this.

    Amber needs to be collected, not produced. If you sack a settlement, you get the 1-2 amber from it. Permanently. You don't have to hold that settlement to keep the amber.

    Also no units should cost amber, that's absurd.

    And a World Roots system would be nice. To move around quickly to attack and sack.
  • HeresyHoundHeresyHound Registered Users Posts: 8,253
    Theo91 said:

    Yea I wish CA would implement the easy wins. Slangors, wargors, khorngors etc air fairly easy to implement

    If they just painted them different colors they would be easy. Of they actually had differing heads and whatnot like they have been described they would be a bit harder.
  • ObsidiusObsidius Registered Users Posts: 118
    edited April 2019
    Here's a crazy method that could work: Bundle all of it in a Kislev DLC. Have a mini-campaign dedicated to Kislev defending its borders from hordes of Warriors of Chaos, Norsca, Beastmen, and Wood Elves. First three could be lead by a new LL for Chaos or Norsca like Tamurkhan or Glottkins (because the other three Chaos Gods have a representative unit but Nurgle doesn't for some reason), Wood Elves get a third LL (Araloth? Drycha? Scarloc?). Said hordes can be where new units can appear since, in addition to what is in the opening post, WoC have a few new beasts that could be added consisting of Chaos Ogres, Chimeras, Slaughterbrutes, and Mutalith Vortex Beasts. I say that as someone who thinks Chaos Ogres would make more sense for Chaos Dwarfs in game 3 given the geography, but the other three would only fit in Warriors or Norsca (unless game 3 has Kurgans to serve as Eastern flavored Norsca). If a player has one of the DLCs of those factions then they would get those units free in custom battles and multiplayer. Fans loyal to game 1 get something, CA gets more DLC sales, Warhammer fans get things they didn't previously, everyone's satisfied (in theory).
  • Prkl8rPrkl8r Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,081
    No DLC for DLC is a double edged sword.

  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 8,012
    edited April 2019
    Content drought? Kind of an odd term to use but I get the sentiment. I think WE are definitely going to get a new LL, seem to remember it being hinted at in an ama or something (this is not me saying it is confirmed!) and it is just such an obvious hole in the series. I remember Loremaster of Sotek saying he thought WE were definitely getting a new LL eventually as well, though doubt that had any solid evidence either - but I stand by it! Edit, hopefully we will get 2 though, imo ideally we will get 4 LLs for each major faction at least.

    Beastmen are a bit harder, since they have far more that is missing. Personally I think they should bite the PR bullet and just do a LP with them in (and @Prkl8r it has been confirmed "no DLC for DLC" isn't actually a thing, it is a bit of a myth which began years ago by someone who doesn't work at CA anymore - think Grace even said that it isn't policy, but they had no plans for DLC for DLC atm, a year or so back). Maybe add Taurox, Ghorgon, Jabber (or Preyton if cost is an issue), and a couple of more simple units - perhaps a FLC Great Bray Shaman and patch giving some overhauls to campaign and such and that should get them to a pretty good place.

    I don't know, however, why people seem so confident that there will be some big change to WoC with game 3. Sure they will probably get something, at least an OW style overhaul, which may well do wonders for them; but they are missing a lot of units which will likely not be fixed for free. I have made this point before but I propose an "upgrade pack" which is a LP focussed solely on WoC and essentially tiers them up to a CP. This is assuming we won't get Monos, but it will include Valkia and Festus (or Tamurkhan, who would be cooler but Festus a bigger character) with Van Horstman as FLC; it will also add all the marked warriors as well as a few other tidbits (maybe Slaughterbrute). If this comes with game 3(or close enough to port its assets like Harpies with BM) it could port in some Daemon stuff with the free patch and rework, Daemon Price ascention (could use Norsca Alignment on each Lord to dedicate to gods as a "path to Daemonhood") as well as a few reskinned units - Skullcrushers and Hellstriders beig the obvious ones.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 35,525
    The unfortunate reality is that as DLC'S they're low down on the priority list. Updates to them benefit less people than core updates.
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  • eomateomat Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,588
    I so badly want Ghorros Warhoof as a 4th LL for BM and hopefully a Doombull generic Lord too. I wouldn’t mind if all 4 LL then would be in one faction so you could at least get them all. Plus Morghur and Khazrak need to be switched. Khazrak needs to be fighting Middenland. They said they didn’t so he could gain levels but he never gets there anyway. Morghur needs to be constantly giving Athel Loren a hard time.

    World Roots idea would be great. Instead of making WE the same as any other faction conquering settlements they could make outposts perhaps in forests around the world or under cities like Skaven but just use them to travel. Thus they could keep their isolationist personality but hit and fade from Athel Loren. They need a Elven LL in Laurelorn Forest. There is enough space for it.
  • dodge33cymrudodge33cymru Registered Users Posts: 3,193
    Another issue with this is adding anything for either faction would mean touching the TWW1 codebase again, and I doubt CA have any interest in doing so.

    Another reason to include these races as base content in Game 3 :tongue:
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 8,401
    They should add the following to the wood elves.

    Ariel - High/Dark/Life Caster Lord
    Spellweaver

    Glade Captain
    Shadow Dancer

    Greatstag mount for the Melee focused Glade lord and Glade Captain
    Unicorn mount for the Mages

    Arcane Bodkins - Armor Sundering
    Moonfire Shafts - AP + Magic Damage
    True Flight Arrows - Faster Projectile Speed and much Greater Accuracy (so they can hit flyers with ease)

    They should add a campaign mechanic where you bring the Oak of Ages back to life by reinvigorating its dead root network and you should be able to use that network to teleport between points. Drop the current World Roots movement stance and replace it with the ambush movement mode that the B-Men/Skaven have. Make amber an accumulated and spent resource for having control of world roots. Give them hidden cities like the Skaven.
  • SaurianDruidSaurianDruid Registered Users Posts: 1,707
    Talmorean said:



    Amber needs to be collected, not produced. If you sack a settlement, you get the 1-2 amber from it. Permanently. You don't have to hold that settlement to keep the amber.

    Also no units should cost amber, that's absurd.

    And a World Roots system would be nice. To move around quickly to attack and sack.

    I've been saying this for a long time now. Having it so that you lose your amber if you lose an outpost makes the outposts far too valuable to function like expendable outposts. Ideally you should only set them up where you need replenishment for your campaigns searching for amber far away from Athel Loren.

    Wood elves shouldn't care about holding lands outside the forest. The amber mechanic was a good idea to force them to go out on Wild Hunts, but making them have to babysit huge stretches of land just plays against the faction fantasy.

    World roots would also be great. Just have it be an outpost building you can make that allows your army to travel between the outpost and the Oak of Ages instantly.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 8,012
    Talmorean said:

    Izariel said:

    Wood Elves really just need a FLC LL and some missing units and they would be alright...

    Oh, and get rid of amber....

    Oh, and get rid of the horrible outpost system....


    Oh, and...

    Nvm- They probably need more than this.

    Amber needs to be collected, not produced. If you sack a settlement, you get the 1-2 amber from it. Permanently. You don't have to hold that settlement to keep the amber.

    Also no units should cost amber, that's absurd.

    And a World Roots system would be nice. To move around quickly to attack and sack.
    I don't know that the units cost amber is inherently a problem, it's the imbalance of it in the roster. Durthu can pretty much have anything without amber, just not Waywatchers and Sisters of Thorn I think. Orion even has to pay Amber for Hawk Riders, plus of course all Forest Spirits except Dryads. This always seemed ridiculous to me, Durthu's setup is fine, but Orion should only have to pay Amber for Dragon and Treeman. To me amber for units works well as a restriction for top-tier units of elves/spirits, creating an interesting divide and thematic focus depending on starting LL, but not when it unnecessarily restricts you from using mid-tier stuff.
  • talonntalonn Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,459
    I am sick of amber system of Woodelves
  • KaedrinKaedrin Registered Users Posts: 73
    edited April 2019
    Across the board their units are are overly populated with swords when they should be using spears and their spears still use game 1 rules (if even then). Very few of their weapons meet the standards of game 2 when it comes to spears/great weapons getting a BvL bonus, dual wield getting a BvI, etc. Yet more and more new content gets add with the correct stats and these are unchanged. That's even ignoring the army book implications of asrai spears and longbows being inherently AP which is rarely reflected in their stats.

    8th Edition -
    Lords:
    Araloth (Spear/Shield, High Ward Save, Unbreakable)
    Glade Lord/Lady - Missing Stag, Magic Arrows (choice other than Trueflight), Shield and Spear (with bonus vs large) or a Great Weapon
    Spellweaver - For the 8 Battle Lores, High, AND Dark magic. Armed with a Longbow. May use a Steed, Eagle, or Unicorn.
    Treeman Ancient - Strangleroots is a ranged attack that should be usable every round. Not on a massive cooldown.
    Drycha (Lore of Shadows Caster, supposed to get much nastier to more she is hurt)
    Naestra and Arahan (Eagle/Dragon mount, two crazy good archers, could do them as a unique two in one unit lord)

    Heroes:
    Glade Captain - Light Armor, Longbow, Arrow Kurnous, Magic Arrows, Spear/Shield or Dual Wield or Great Weapon. Steed, Eagle or Stag. Your utility belt guy.
    Spellsinger - Missing their longbow option. Missing most of the lores of magic when they are supposed to get all 8. Unicorn mount for more magic resist.
    Shadowdancer - Dual Wield, Shadow Lore, Ward Save, and the Shadow Dances of Loec (4).
    Waystalker - Dual Wield, should follow Waywatcher rules and be an upgrade version but is not. Should be updated to use dual wield weapon rules like HE/DE.
    Branchwraith - Should not be vulnerable to fire. Missing hatred for bursts of MA when first getting in to a fight.

    Not all magic arrows would necessarily be useful (ie trueflight is a bit too prone to miss) but with too many of the magic arrows being made physical it may make sense to make starfire magic and moonfire physical or vice versa (and both flaming).

    Units:
    Glade Guard - Missing Swiftshiver, Arcane Bodkin, and Moonfire arrows.
    Dryad - Missing hatred and shouldn't be flammable.
    Glade Riders - Missing Swiftshiver, Arcane Bodkin, Moonfire, and Starfire arrows. Missing a Spear.
    Wardancers - Missing the rest of the Dances of Loec (3). 20% Physical doesn't really make up for 15% Ward save and they are missing their replacement for Ambushers which looks like it was implemented as Vanguard.
    Deepwood Scouts - Missing Arcane Bodkin, Hagbane Tips, Starfire, and Moonfire Arrows.
    Warhawk Riders - Named wrong. Missing Spear. Animation Issues. Stats definitely don't match up to TT.
    Wildriders - Spear cav without BvL. Dual Wield doesn't do more damage. 20% Physical doesn't quite make up for 15% Ward save.
    Waywatchers - Dual Wield rules. I'd give up Hawkish precision for Hawk-Eyed archer (two abilities you can switch between instantly where one is AP and one is swiftshiver) while losing the extra ranger over the normal longbow.
    Great Eagle - Unit size in TT is 1+ so make a flight of eagles as 1 is... meh.
    Treeman - Missing Strangleroots as a ranged ability that can be used every round.


    6th Edition -
    Lords (all gain access to a few skills providing unique abilities from Spites)
    Ancient Treeman - gets stronger due to the +1 S they lost in 8th.

    Heroes (all gain access to a few skills providing unique abilities from Spites)

    Units:
    Dryads - Dryads get stronger due to the +1 S they lost in 8th.
    Treekin - gets stronger due to the +1 S they lost in 8th.
    Treeman - gets stronger due to the +1 S they lost in 8th.

    Lore of Athel Loren could be a unique magic they add for a unique lord/mechanic (such as growing out the forest).

    4rd Edition -
    Lords (gain access to Chariot Mounts)
    Ariel (Caster) - Probably High or Dark magic choice and Life. Longbow. The butterfly wings are her war shape, she does have a normal form they could do and say she doesn't do the butterfly anymore LOL.
    Naieth - See Mixu's version!
    Thalandor - Starts on a eagle. WE version of Tiqtaq'to (master of the sky). Mage, very high ward save against missiles and decent against melee, good armor.
    Scarloc - WE merc company leader known to roam the world. Would make sense as a remote location "leader" such as Oreon's location if two with a name that close is a nono. Sword/Shield, Light armor, Longbow, 5+ ward save.
    Drycha - gains a very high ward save and the 3 aspects from the usual Dryads).

    Heroes (gain access to Chariot Mounts)

    Units:
    Dryads - Gain 3 aspects (can have one up at a time) which boost +1S/+1T or +1A or a -1A aura (vanilla equivalent).
    Meadow Chariots - Light armor, shield and a choice of spear or longbow. Can have scythed wheels and steed armor.
    Glade Riders - Gain access to a shield and light armor.
    Warhawk Riders - Gain access to a shield, light armor, and vanguard
    Wardancers - Gain access to a sword and shield version
    Glade Guard - Gain access to light armor, shields, and spears.
    Waywatchers - Gain access to a snare-net style trap

    Other sources -

    Citadel 34
    Unit - Bolt thrower
    Hero - Beastmaster
    Armor Buff - Improved armor for all mounted units at a higher unit cost
    Forest Wolves (host of the forest floor)
    Hunting Hounds - 3rd
    Alter Kins (Laith-Kourn) - 6th edition, essentially skin wolves
    Spite Swarms in 4th and 6th
    Ethereal hosts - 3rd edition
    Guardian Trees - Storm of Magic, which are essentially just a way to make any kind of tree more unique by giving it properties (for example Venom Thicket has Poison and the Blood Forest has Frenzy). A Treeman (Blood Forest) would be a slightly more expensive treeman with Frenzy.
    Naiads and Kelpies are mentioned as spirits that awaken in Athel Loren in 8th which CA could use to do their own thing.



    Post edited by Kaedrin on
  • IMayboIMaybo Registered Users Posts: 457
    also you forgot trueflight arrows
  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 8,012
    @Kaedrin I think you make a point that could be very interesting for the Elves in general if applied. What if the elf Hero mages kept the more limited selection of Lores that they have now, but then the Lord versions got all lores (No High for DE or Dark for HE though)? So Supreme Sorceress, Archmage and Spellweaver need to be used to take some lores for their faction, forcing you to use a Lord Slot to take that lore. Think that would be an interesting way to give Elves all the magic they should have but have a bit of a dilema on how to integrate it into yor army in general.
  • SaitohSaitoh Registered Users Posts: 383
    People who can buy a DE/HE/LM/SK DLC: Everyone who owns WH2.

    People who can buy a Empire/GS/VC/Dwarf/Bret DLC: people who own both WH2 and WH1.

    People who can buy a WE/BM/WOC DLC: people who own WH2 and WH1 AND WH1 DLC.
  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Registered Users Posts: 1,907
    Izariel said:

    Wood Elves really just need a FLC LL and some missing units and they would be alright...

    Oh, and get rid of amber....

    Oh, and get rid of the horrible outpost system....


    Oh, and...

    Nvm- They probably need more than this.

    Keep Amber, but use it to improve "your side's" troops like Ikit Claw, as well as for techs and the Tree of Life.

    Outpost system I could tolerate if it was made way, way better.
  • IMayboIMaybo Registered Users Posts: 457
    I would also like to see:
    • The forest battles changed, like getting a better view of the troops fighting in the forest, improving the cover system for units in the forest against units outside the forest area (archers shooting a tree in front of them looks ridiculous)

    • Decrease stat buffs which wood elf units receive from the forest but allow WE to buy the ability to spawn 2-3 custom tree areas, which are placed during the deployment phase before the battle starts (like in TT). It allows receiving forest buffs more consistently than relying on the map. Current bonuses (+50% accuracy, +10% MD bonus and Wildwood Rangers anti-large bonus) are too unbalanced to give them any time the map has a forest in the right place of the map. This change gives elves and their opponents more objectives - both will want to control those areas. Being in the forest or outside of the forest won't affect WE's performance as much as it's now. Current bonuses + penalties that some large entities of other factions receive in the forest make some of WE's units performance in the forest and outside of the forest like day and night (i.e. Wildwood Rangers against monsters and cavalry)
  • WarfieldWarfield Registered Users Posts: 526
    blindjonn said:

    After logging about 450 hours into Total Warhammer 2 it's clear that longstanding races, Beastmen and Wood Elves are getting left in the dust.

    A content update for both these factions would generate sales of their respective DLCs, and I'm sure people would even buy a Lord pack for them if CA don't like modelling units without a new source of revenue to go with them. Personally, I'm losing interest and feeling frustrated as a result of content/power creep, bloated new factions are overshadowing classic ones. I hope a few people in the forums and, especially, at CA feel the same way.

    I am not a Wood Elf or Beastmen player, but I do agree with you with regards to feeling that WH2 factions overshadow the WH1 factions. It is one of the reasons I am not buying WH2.

    My prediction is that if CA is still making content for WH1, then WE vs BM will be the next Lord Pack (before a possible Chaos and Bretonnia Lord Pack). It makes a lot of sense from a lore perspective, plus there is plenty of content to add for both factions.


    Warfield Undermountain
    Dwarf Lord of Stone and Steel


    TWW3 Dwarf Content Series:
    FLC/Update #1: "Brewing" Update, Josef Bugman FLC, Bugman's Brewery faction
    FLC/Update #2: "Royal Blood" Update, Alrik Ranulfsson FLC, Karak Hirn faction
    FLC/Update #3: "Vengeance" Update, Kazador Thunderhorn FLC, Karak Azul faction
    FLC/Update #4: "Runelore" Update, Kragg the Grim FLC, Runesmith's Guild faction

    DLC #1: The Sorcerer and the Engineer, "Engineer's Workshop" Update
    DLC #2: The Daemon and the Slayer, "Slayer's Oath" Update
  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 8,012
    Warfield said:

    blindjonn said:

    After logging about 450 hours into Total Warhammer 2 it's clear that longstanding races, Beastmen and Wood Elves are getting left in the dust.

    A content update for both these factions would generate sales of their respective DLCs, and I'm sure people would even buy a Lord pack for them if CA don't like modelling units without a new source of revenue to go with them. Personally, I'm losing interest and feeling frustrated as a result of content/power creep, bloated new factions are overshadowing classic ones. I hope a few people in the forums and, especially, at CA feel the same way.

    I am not a Wood Elf or Beastmen player, but I do agree with you with regards to feeling that WH2 factions overshadow the WH1 factions. It is one of the reasons I am not buying WH2.

    My prediction is that if CA is still making content for WH1, then WE vs BM will be the next Lord Pack (before a possible Chaos and Bretonnia Lord Pack). It makes a lot of sense from a lore perspective, plus there is plenty of content to add for both factions.

    Why not get 2? I mean they are (slowly) pdating game 1 races so VC, Dwarfs and Brets - so far - play way better than they did in game 1. Also there have been a lot of under the hood changes that make stuff a lot better - magic for example is far better (god I remember how useless most damage spells, vortexes particularly, were).

    But game 1 is complete, so nothing new for that - it has been hinted that WEs would get another LL and it is possible they have listened and we are to recieve the Holy Grail that is Cross-LPs. Unfortunately BM and WE are unlikely to recieve LPs though.
  • WarfieldWarfield Registered Users Posts: 526
    Goatforce said:


    Why not get 2? I mean they are (slowly) pdating game 1 races so VC, Dwarfs and Brets - so far - play way better than they did in game 1. Also there have been a lot of under the hood changes that make stuff a lot better - magic for example is far better (god I remember how useless most damage spells, vortexes particularly, were).

    I tend to play Dwarf armies and so the race content in WH2 didn't appeal to me very much. I will likely purchase it at some point so that my Dwarf army can beat up on some elves. I would rather pay for another Lord Pack that featured one of the Dwarf Lords (such Thorek Ironbrow or Alrik Ranulffson), than buy a game I wouldn't even start a campaign for. If they released a Dwarf DLC for WH2 I would finally cave in!

    Warfield Undermountain
    Dwarf Lord of Stone and Steel


    TWW3 Dwarf Content Series:
    FLC/Update #1: "Brewing" Update, Josef Bugman FLC, Bugman's Brewery faction
    FLC/Update #2: "Royal Blood" Update, Alrik Ranulfsson FLC, Karak Hirn faction
    FLC/Update #3: "Vengeance" Update, Kazador Thunderhorn FLC, Karak Azul faction
    FLC/Update #4: "Runelore" Update, Kragg the Grim FLC, Runesmith's Guild faction

    DLC #1: The Sorcerer and the Engineer, "Engineer's Workshop" Update
    DLC #2: The Daemon and the Slayer, "Slayer's Oath" Update
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,023
    Goatforce said:

    I don't know, however, why people seem so confident that there will be some big change to WoC with game 3. Sure they will probably get something, at least an OW style overhaul, which may well do wonders for them; but they are missing a lot of units which will likely not be fixed for free. I have made this point before but I propose an "upgrade pack" which is a LP focussed solely on WoC and essentially tiers them up to a CP. This is assuming we won't get Monos, but it will include Valkia and Festus (or Tamurkhan, who would be cooler but Festus a bigger character) with Van Horstman as FLC; it will also add all the marked warriors as well as a few other tidbits (maybe Slaughterbrute). If this comes with game 3(or close enough to port its assets like Harpies with BM) it could port in some Daemon stuff with the free patch and rework, Daemon Price ascention (could use Norsca Alignment on each Lord to dedicate to gods as a "path to Daemonhood") as well as a few reskinned units - Skullcrushers and Hellstriders beig the obvious ones.

    Because CA was fairly upfront back when TWW1 released that WoC was essentially a filler intended to be the 'final boss' rather than a full playable race, which was touched up just enough to make them playable due to customer demand. The third major installment was always planned to be when Chaos would get the proper treatment.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 8,012
    Draxynnic said:

    Goatforce said:

    I don't know, however, why people seem so confident that there will be some big change to WoC with game 3. Sure they will probably get something, at least an OW style overhaul, which may well do wonders for them; but they are missing a lot of units which will likely not be fixed for free. I have made this point before but I propose an "upgrade pack" which is a LP focussed solely on WoC and essentially tiers them up to a CP. This is assuming we won't get Monos, but it will include Valkia and Festus (or Tamurkhan, who would be cooler but Festus a bigger character) with Van Horstman as FLC; it will also add all the marked warriors as well as a few other tidbits (maybe Slaughterbrute). If this comes with game 3(or close enough to port its assets like Harpies with BM) it could port in some Daemon stuff with the free patch and rework, Daemon Price ascention (could use Norsca Alignment on each Lord to dedicate to gods as a "path to Daemonhood") as well as a few reskinned units - Skullcrushers and Hellstriders beig the obvious ones.

    Because CA was fairly upfront back when TWW1 released that WoC was essentially a filler intended to be the 'final boss' rather than a full playable race, which was touched up just enough to make them playable due to customer demand. The third major installment was always planned to be when Chaos would get the proper treatment.
    True, but I am still sceptical that they will do some huge rework for free. Don't get me wrong, if they came out swinging with a massive patch that completely transforms the WoC I would be over the moon, but I don't think there patches will get that big. I do think we will get an OW rework for them, and that should at least make the campaign a lot more interesting (especially since the FLC updates seem to be getting bigger and better) and they might pull an Under-City style scale rework to WoC.

    But with regards to filling out the roster, apart from Princes (which we will likely see in rework) Skullcrushers, Hellstriders and any other unit that can be easily transfered from DoC to WoC I don't see WoC getting to a "complete" state without paying extra - which is why I would like an "upgrade" pack for them. I mean it is also possible that CA will pull some weirdness and make WoC a core in 3 or something utterly unexpected like that, or maybe drip feed it updates with Monogod DLC releases.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 936
    Goatforce said:

    I am still sceptical that they will do some huge rework for free.

    This is what I'm concerned about. CA have a golden opportunity to make a "complete" Warhammer game, a true love letter to the setting that will please every kind of Warhammer Fantasy fan. If every unit from Warhammer was eventually included, the depth of content would make for a masterpiece. Long term, it'd be a legendary game and would generate decades of revenue.

    But short term thinking can harm that. "How do we quickly make money from this month's work?", "What can we prioritise to maximise short term profit?", "What factions do we prefer to work on, and which factions are we willing to leave hanging in order to do so?" - these are questions that will damage final product, leaving it feeling lopsided, unbalanced, inconsistent and incomplete. There's nothing more frustrating than media that's almost perfect.
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