WH3 Discussion-Time: Tzeentch 4 LLs

Gotrek_Beastslayer

Greetings, worshippers of Sigmar and warm-blooded creatures!

Feelin' putrid? Feelin' sanguinary? Bad for you then, 'cause this thread is blessed by The Changer of Ways! The Supreme Trollin' hard God! The Itachi Uchiha of Warhammer 'verse...The Aizen Sosuke of Warhammer 'verse...

I'm talking about Tzeentch, Dogbert's Master ~

This is mah 2nd thread about the 4 possible LLs for each one of the Chaos Gods ~

*Extra*

If ya' wanna check Papa Nurgle and Buddy Khorne's 4 LLs, here the links:

Nurgle: 4 LLs:

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/232124/wh3-discussion-time-nurgle-4-lls/p1

Khorne: 4 LLs:

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/240974/wh3-discussion-time-khorne-4-lls/p1


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Enough chit-chat! Let's start:

The Changeling ~ Malthael goes Prank

'Kay...this is probably one of the most tricky and funny LL that CA can add ~ he's a Living-Genjutsu and he can easily become the best "Cause Terror" user of the game.

The Changeling, known as the Perplexing Prankster, the Decieving Horror, or even Tzeentch's Trickster, personifies the part of Tzeentch's psyche that is the meddler and the deceiver. He is the ultimate trickster, who can take the form of other beings, from the tiniest of insects to the most massive of Greater Daemons. None, save perhaps Tzeentch himself, know the Changeling’s true form, for he goes cowled and cloaked when in his own shape — perhaps even the Changeling himself has forgotten it. Not only can the Changeling mirror the form of another, he can adopt mannerisms and personalities in so flawless a fashion that even the Dark Gods can be deceived.

Though Tzeentch loves to take credit for the Changeling's schemes, only a handful of the Daemon's adventures are carried out at his patron's directions. The Great Schemer is content to let the Changeling roam wild through eternity, causing havoc where he may. Each meddling opens up more possibilities in the Great Game, and Tzeentch watches with amusement as the Changeling weaves his uneven tapestry of disruption.
That so many of his pranks have caused terrible wars is of no concern to the Changeling. He loves the discord of conflict, for it breeds opportunity to deceive and dismay like nothing else. His enjoyment begins even before armies clash: impersonating messengers and generals to disrupt strategy wherever possible. When battle begins, the Changeling is wont to adopt the shape and skill of the most powerful foe, pounding the enemy to pieces with malicious enthusiasm and borrowed muscle.

The Changeling exists to play malicious tricks upon all about him.
On one occasion, taking the shape of a Daemonette, he stole the silver apples of knowledge from Slaanesh's palace. On the edge of the Dark Prince's territory he then assumed the form of a Plaguebearer and slipped into Nurgle's garden, only to grow tired of the game and abandon the apples to rot amidst the decaying fronds. When Slaanesh discovered the theft, he flew into a rage and sent his armies to retrieve the lost treasures. So did Slaanesh and Nurgle come to blows, the former believing the latter to be a thief, and the latter convinced the former had engineered a pretext for invasion.
The Changeling was already elsewhere -- stealing Collars of Khorne from Flesh Hounds and melting them down to create brass dioramas of the Blood God's greatest defeats. So has the Changeling passed through eternity, sowing mischief in his wake. It was he who cut away Slaanesh's hair while the Dark Prince slept, and from it wove the cloak that Tzeentch presented to the mortal champion Egrimm van Horstmann. It was the Changeling who sealed the doors of Khorne's citadel while he was away campaigning, forcing the Blood God to shatter his own proud gates when he returned.

The Changeling took the form of the Liche King Arkhan the Black. So disguised, he promised a cabal of Necrarch Vampires untold sorcerous knowledge in exchange for their assistance in an attack on the Lustrian temple-city of Tlanxla. Whilst Zombie hordes fight Tlanxla's Lizardmen protectors to a standstill, the Changeling’s Daemons ransacked the treasure vaults of both sides, swiftly overwhelming defences weakened by the ongoing battle and claiming many mighty artefacts — which they then devoured.

---> Ladies and Gentlemortals...what we have here is probably the funniest (and maybe hardest) LL that CA can create. Imagine spreading tricks, false informations and mind-corruption to all your opponents. Destroying enemy alliances, and taking the advantages of civil wars in ME and/or in the Story Mode! Not just against the other 3 Gods, but against everyone who opposes to Tzeentch.
Upgrading The Changeling means unlocking new ways to prank and confuse the other races, not just shape-shifting or mind-washing ~ amazing!

The Changeling is a perfect candidate to be the Lesser Daemon LL but he can also be a perfect LH.

Vilitch the Curseling ~ Me, Myself and...This damn Thing on my shoulder?!

---> The true mixed king...Vilitch is what i'd like the most for a Monogod Warrior LL . A Melee-Beast and a Master-Spellcaster fused togheter ~ strong close range figher, strong long range mage. And definitely a God Tier char of the Loyalty mechanic...and, probably, with the best "leadership" of the game.

Once there was born a pair of twins; one healthy, strong and good to look upon, and one wretched, weak and tiny. Though the tribe’s leaders expected the wholesome son to become a great warrior, it was the runt Vilitch who was to change their fate forever.
As they grew up, Thomin - the thriving twin - excelled in the hunt, and soon rose to lead the tribe’s youngest warriors. The weakling Vilitch, on the other hand, was universally despised for his ugliness and frailty. He was forced to perform his dead mother’s chores and, humiliatingly, was denied the use of a sword. Thomin used to beat Vilitch for the slightest infraction and, despite the runt’s pleas, his father would not intervene.

Thomin became well-muscled and athletic, quickly learning the ways of the warrior. Vilitch barely managed to scrape by as an apprentice to the tribe’s shaman, where he learnt a few meagre cantrips and a little knowledge about the powers that dwelt beyond the veil. Every night, the runtling prayed fervently to Tzeentch to reverse their fates, to make him the strong one and his brother the slave. The Great Sorcerer, who delights in anarchy, agreed to Vilitch’s selfish request.
One Geheimnisnacht, when the Chaos moon passed close to the world, Vilitch awoke to find that his body and that of his sibling Thomin had melded together. His brother’s intellect had been added to his own, and there was nothing left of Thomin’s mind save for a drooling automaton enthralled to Vilitch’s command.

The grotesque fusion of warrior and runtling that staggered out of the twins’ tent glowed with the power of baleful magic. Vilitch’s budding magical abilities had been enhanced a hundredfold, and the hulking body to which his withered frame had been fused was possessed of diabolic strength. Laughing maniacally at his newfound powers, Vilitch embarked upon a bloody killing spree, sending crackling arcs of pure change into those who had looked down upon him in the past and forcing the body of Thomin to throttle any who tried to stop him.

But Vilitch’s story did not end there. The malformed sorcerer-twin hunted down all of the warrior elite of his tribe and used his dire powers to enslave their minds, making them little more than walking puppets that lived and died according to his whims.
Now, wherever the Curseling plots and schemes to further his own power, a band of hard-bitten veterans marches at his side, each of them under the fearful command of the disturbing creature that they know only as the Twisted Twin.

Vilitch posses The Vessel of Chaos: Vilitch enjoys the patronage of the Great Sorcerer himself and as part of Tzeentch's fickle plans, he has gifted the Twisted Twin with a dark crucible - a powerful artefact that is able to harness and store a great reservoir of unstable magical energy.

Kairos Fateweaver ~ "I know what you did last summer" all over again!

---> The Greater Daemon LL and the most powerful of his kind...and one of the stronget mage-type of the game.
Imagine the possibility to see the future actions (like next turn, upgraded to 2-3 turns) of all the factions of the game (ME and Story Mode).
IMO there's only one negative point on Kairos' favor...his in-game model. His 8th ed. model looks so...ehm, so normal
What i'd like to see is End Times Kairos!

Just look at him:

so hot ~

Kairos Fateweaver, known also as the Oracle of Tzeentch, the Keeper of the Destiny Scrolls, and even the Mocking Watcher, is perhaps the most powerful of his kind due to the actions of his master, the Changer of Ways, the Daemon now knowing every spell in existence, and every action before it's conceived. Ever since he clawed his way back from the Well of Eternity after years uncounted within its depths, Kairos can see things that are hidden even to Tzeentch.

His right head sees possible futures as clear as day. No scheme is hidden from its sight and the infinite possibilities of tomorrow crystallise into irrefutable fact. Kairos’ left head sees the past without the petty colourations of perspective and bias. Past and future pulse through a body shrivelled and twisted by its passage through the Well. Valuable as this vision is, it comes with a heavy cost. Both of Kairos’ heads are blind to the present; he cannot see time as it passes — only events that are to come or whose time has already lapsed.
Kairos’ blindness to the present makes him vulnerable to physical attack — the future does not reveal itself swifty enough to predict battles to and fro. Nevertheless, Kairos’ unique vision allows him to stay one step ahead of adversaries, pitting various assailants against one another in timestream-straddling duels. In the arena of magic, Kairos is unstoppable. He knows every spell in existence, every sigil, sign and quirk of mystical power; though even he cannot marshal them all without a modicum of preparation. Such ability makes him Tzeentch’s favoured agent.

Even Tzeentch dares not enter the Well of Eternity, the vast receptacle of knowledge at the heart of the Impossible Fortress. The Great Sorcerer, mighty though he is, cannot be sure of survival within the inky currents of infinity. Still the Well of Eternity holds great sway over Tzeentch’s mind, for it is the one puzzle he cannot solve, and the one mystery he cannot know — a challenge almost painful in its intensity. It was in the cause of understanding that Tzeentch hurled Kairos, a Lord of Change known as the Fateweaver to mortals, into the foreboding depths of the Well.

Kairos now sits at Tzeentch’s right hand, stirring the stygian depths of the Well as he whispers aloud the secrets that only he can see. Nine times nine Lords of Change transcribe these insights with quills drawn from their own plumage and inked with Tzeentch’s blood. Each scribe jealously guards the secrets he hears — every such facet of eternity is a powerful tool in the unending intrigue and collusion of Tzeentch’s court.

Egrimm van Horstmann ~ Sugar, Spice...and Logain from Dragon Age (sorry, no rhyme)

---> I know what you're thinkin'..."that's a Warrior LL" ...yup, but there are 3 points on Egrimm's favor:

• Egrimm is basically the Malus Darkbalde & Thanquol of the Tzeentch-roster. Hes' the protagonist of a novel (by Ben Counter)
  

• Egrimm is the Mount-LL of the Tzeentch-roster, due to his Chaos Dragon mount, Baudros
  

• Egrimm is the perfect Tzeentch LL for mixed TZ daemons + TZ warriors/beasties armies.
  

There's a loooooooot of stuff about Egrimm (ya' know...he has an entire novel about him) so i'll try to make it as short as i can:

Egrimm van Horstmann is the most infamous, and perhaps most dangerous, of the Imperial Colleges’ few known traitors, and he is the White Order’s greatest shame. There was a time when Horstmann was counted amongst the brightest and most talented Magisters of the Order. He was the last occupant of the Patriarch’s Throne at the Order of Light.
In his day, Horstmann was acclaimed as the youngest, most gifted Magister to ever preside over one of the Empire’s Colleges of Magic. As he knelt down to swear his allegiance to the Supreme Patriarch, the Emperor, and the cause of the Order, no one guessed that his loyalties, and soul, had already been given over to a far more sinister master.
Horstmann was praying to the Chaos Gods for the power and knowledge to surpass his peers, which explained his rapid progress through the ranks. By day, he studied the pure magics of Hysh, and by night he pored over the ancient manuscripts devoted to the tainted lores of sorcery that the Hierophants kept locked away within its libraries, binding Daemons to serve his nefarious plans. The Daemons of Tzeentch no doubt whispered their timeless secrets into Horstmann’s sleeping mind, and his powers grew strong.

The discovery of Horstmann’s corruption is a long, morbid tale with a terrible ending. Before he and his twisted Apprentices fled before the combined fury of Volkmar the Grim and those initiates of the Order who were still loyal to its honest principles, Horstmann managed to free the infamous Chaos Dragon Baudros from its prison beneath the Pyramid of Light, and upon its winged and two-headed form Horstmann took to the sky and fled towards the Chaos Wastes. Reliable information about Horstmann after this point is hard to come by. It is known that he set about creating a citadel fortress in the Wastes, at the edge of the Screaming Hills. To these gleaming silver towers he summoned many corrupted souls - many of them being the very College folk his machinations had so perverted.
Horstmann and his corrupted Apprentices formed the Cabal — perhaps the most infamous of any group dedicated to Tzeentch. The sorcerers of the Cabal bow only to Horstmann and only because he is the most powerful of them. The majority of the warriors who protect the Cabal are willing slaves to Horstmann and his Apprentices.
Once accepted in the Cabal, a sorcerer must swear binding magical oaths of loyalty to Horstmann, and his dark lord, Tzeentch. Once branded with Tzeentch’s rune, the initiate can never rebel against the will of his masters under pain of being reduced to the state of a mindless spawn of Chaos. Horstmann’s Apprentices are everywhere, and nearly two thirds of all the Chaos cults in the Empire are either created indirectly by agents from within his network, are controlled by his Cabal in some round about way, or owe direct allegiance to him.
Such plotting and scheming no doubt pleases Tzeentch, and he seems to have rewarded Horstmann greatly over the years, making him his most favoured mortal servant.

Egrimm van Horstmann's insanity lies with the fact that he is devoid of sympathy, empathy, guilt, and has an extreme willingness to do anything he can to achieve his ultimate goal. It takes a certain kind of mind to envision schemes where each fragment of seemingly unrelated events are intricately woven together to carry out a goal that only is part of a larger plot, that it itself is only a small piece of a grand clockwork-scale design of an incomprehensibly complicated orchestra of Change. This is why he is so favoured by the God of Change. It is said that to look upon the raw form of Tzeentch is to bring about madness, but this is not so for van Horstmann; by the time he made his pact and gazed upon his God, he had already brought madness with him.
Patient, beguiling, and deceptive, Egrimm van Horstmann appears devoid of any emotion at all as he plunges into his work. Indeed, the only time van Horstmann appears to allow himself to feel any emotion is only when a plot nears its end, and usually he only basks in the change it has wrought. Be wary if you ever encounter Egrimm van Horstmann, for it may not be by chance, but engineered by his design.

Favored of Tzeentch, and master of daemons, Egrimm van Horstmann is by far one of the most powerful and disciplined Chaos Sorcerers ever to walk this world. Able to master the winds of Hysh simultaneously with a much Darker Art, and dabbling in Daemonology as only a young magister in secret, his arcane prowess can only have increased ten-fold now giving himself entirely to Tzeentch. Masterful pact-maker with daemonkind and plotter of intricate schemes, van Horstmann's ploys and ruses are just as deadly as any magical dread-bolt or daemonic flame he can conjure.
Egrimm van Horstmann is favoured by Tzeentch, and often utilizes pacts that he has made with daemonkind. It is said that to gaze upon the bare flesh of van Horstmann is to invite madness, for burned into his entire body is an endless text of restless contracts that unnaturally swirl, spiral, and shift around if watched too long. Such contracts have bound to him an equal number of countless daemons, not just limited to those of Tzeentch.

Skull of Katam ---> The spirit of the long-dead Daemonologist Katam is said to still linger within his skull and will whisper the secrets of sorcery to whomever possesses it, only to have their minds utterly destroyed by the horrific revelations of chaos. It was the Skull of Katam that whispered to van Horstman the secret of how to contact Tzeentch directly, but to what mischievous gain this brought to Katam none can say.

Van Horstmann's Speculum ---> A small magical mirror able to switch the fighting capabilities with the wearer and the attacker.

Baudros ---> Baudros is a two-headed Chaos Dragon that often serves as Egrimm van Horstmann's flying steed into battle. One head is bestial with an undercut-jaw, and the other is clever with sharp eyes and a skinny frame. Not much can match the ferocity of this black-grey scaled abomination, and with one head spouting black fire and the other blasting acidic bile, not many can run away either.

HONORABLE MENTION AND POSSIBLE LH:

The Blue Scribes

The Blue Scribes, sometimes known as Azure Arcanologists, Wandering Wizards, and Tzeentch's Quaestors, are a pair of powerful Blue Horrors which ride their Disc of Tzeentch through realms eternal and mortal, squabbling as they seek lost fragments of their god to bind them with parchment and ink.

P'tarix scrawls frantically with a quill crafted from a Lord of Change's pinfeather.

Xirat'p reads the written words to check for mistakes; in so doing unleashing the power bound within on any unfortunate enough to be nearby.

The Blue Scribes' mission often draws them to battlefields, where the most destructive and powerful magics are used. If threatened, Xirat'p starts reading at random from the accumulated scrolls, trusting to the hand of fate, his master, to guide him to the correct scroll for each occasion. This can have quite spectacular and bizarre results, with a foe as likely to be struck by multicoloured lightning as he is to be drenched by his own personal thunderstorm or transmuted to solid gold.
Tzeentch created these two daemons, P'tarix and Xirat'p, tasked with learning every spell in existence. Though Blue Horrors in form and surly personality, the quest required these Blue Scribes to be more self-aware than others of their kind. Ever careful of betrayal, Tzeentch bestowed this intelligence with care. P'tarix can transcribe the magical syllables of any spell to parchment, but cannot read. Xirat'p can read his brother's scribblings, but cannot understand them.
udging his work to be good, the Great Sorcerer sent his creations out into existence to complete their quest. In truth, the Blue Scribes can never complete their task, for magic has multiplied in the service of mortals. This is well for Xirat'p and P'tarix and for existence itself. Should the Blue Scribes complete their task, Tzeentch would swallow them, reuniting the lost fragments of his being and absorbing the extra power born along the way. It is doubtful that any creature, mortal or Daemon, would survive such a renewal.

---> A very easy-to-make and fun to play LH, with an interesting Campaign Quest, basing on the lore. If this doesn't make The Scribes as a potential candidate(s) for the LH-place...

Tears_After_Hate

Cool thread! I was looking at Tzeentch and his possible Legendary Lords for a while.

I was sad when i have found out that WoC Undivided didn't have had Vilitch as one of the Lords. I was very disappointed because he is my favorite Chaos Warrior Lord, with Tamurkhan and Arbaal. But now that i read your thread i can perfectly see why Vilitch would be a much better option as one of the Tzeentch Legendary Lords!

Egrimm is a surprise! I want to read his novel!

The Changeling seems so epic! I hope he will be one of the first two Tzeentch's Legendary Lords.

ScreamimgEnvy

The Changeling is so different...so interesting. I like it.
Thanks for the list, Gotrek! I'm a Nurgle fan but I can't say that Tzeentch has not some good cards in his hand.

RomeoReject#1666

I like Tzeench primarily because of how fabulous all his stuff looks. I actually despise the magic mechanic, but would without a doubt pick a Tzeenchian Lord without hesitation, exclusively due to aesthetics.

Harkovast#1792

Aekold Helbrass!
His ability gives those around him regeneration.
You could use that to heal your own troops but also giving enemies regen would make them vulnerable to fire, something Tzeentch is good at producing.

Draxynnic#3149

Should have saved that rhyme for Slaanesh: "Sugar and spice and all things vice!"

I'd probably be inclined to make the Changeling a LH rather than a LL. It would be wasted if it was tied to an army rather than being able to run around as a lone agent performing agent actions.

dodge33cymru#1936

Love these threads and this is the one I've been waiting for.

Really think you should add Aekold Helbrass though, he has so much potential to be completely different from all other Chaos lords, with his ability to breathe life into things. I also imagine his animation would look superb, plants springing up when he moves etc. and be a great juxtaposition to the classic Chaos tropes (which, after all, is sort of the point!).

No idea how they'd do the Changeling.

Another obvious candidate (especially as CA seems to prioritise 8th edition stuff *sigh*) is Galrauch. Would be relatively easy to make, seeing as there's already a Chaos Dragon model to use as a base.

Fingers crossed Game 3 is based around the principle of making this possible......

Gerardofthetitan

Top thread! In my opinion:

- Changeling = core LL

- Vilitch = core LL

- Kairos = DLC Lord Pack

- Egrimm = FLC

Aekold Helbrass sounds cool. I have to search more details about him.

Draxynnic#3149

I think they've got a suitable effect for Alarielle, so they could re-use that.

One potential issue with Galrauch is that CA has shown an antipathy to doing characters that fly without a mount. They might decide that Egrimm van Horstmann offers everything that Galrauch does while avoiding that problem.

Mind you, being in a position where they'd be somewhat obliged to do Greater Demons properly may change that policy...

GodWillTell

Tell me what you want but i'd love to see Vilitch vs Arbaal vs Tamurkhan vs Sigvald/Styrkaar, fighting for the Mortal Throne of Chaos!!

Mr_Finley7#4571

I hate the changeling. As if Chaos isn’t given enough Mary Sues and over the top plot armor, now they have a guy who can appear as anyone he wants, whenever he wants, so he can literally assassinate any other character on a whim.

HeresyHound

RomeoReject said:

I like Tzeench primarily because of how fabulous all his stuff looks. I actually despise the magic mechanic, but would without a doubt pick a Tzeenchian Lord without hesitation, exclusively due to aesthetics.

I like the fact that there is variety in how Tzeentch's stuff looks. I like Nurgle and all but everything related to Nurgle looks the same bloated and green. Tzeentch is actually chaotic with the appearance of units and characters.

Draxynnic#3149

FungusHound said:

RomeoReject said:

I like Tzeench primarily because of how fabulous all his stuff looks. I actually despise the magic mechanic, but would without a doubt pick a Tzeenchian Lord without hesitation, exclusively due to aesthetics.

I like the fact that there is variety in how Tzeentch's stuff looks. I like Nurgle and all but everything related to Nurgle looks the same bloated and green. Tzeentch is actually chaotic with the appearance of units and characters.

I've generally thought of Tzeentch as being the true God of Chaos. Khorne, Slaanesh, and Nurgle all have themes that impose a degree of order on their followers. Khorne has a sense of martial discipline and honour, however hypocritical and bloodthirsty it might be. It's a common theme that Slaanesh requires a degree of order for hedonism to be possible. Nurgle requires some degree of order for his plagues to grow, and imposes a law upon his followers: Thou shalt be infected. Tzeentch, on the other hand... anything goes, as long as it involves change.

LordSolarMach#5538

If we were to end up with Daemons Undivided and Tzeentch Hordes, I had the Lords as:

Warriors of Chaos FLC: Egrimm van Horstmann
-The classic Tzeentch lord. In my plotting for how to add stuff in game three I included FLC Lords of the remaining three gods to balance out Slaanesh's Sigvald. I had Festus for Nurgle and Arbaal for Khorne (another classic). With Tzeentch, I considered Vilitch but... honestly, I don't like him that much. He'd also require making a totally unique skeleton, which might be a bit much for an FLC. Egrimm van Horstmann would also need to come with Baudros and I didn't add Chaos Dragons to my Tzeentch Hordes list (which already included Feathered Sorrow-Spawn, Feral Chimeras, Firewyrms, and Mutalith Vortex Beasts) so he has to go here for me.

Daemons Undivided: The Blue Scribes
-I had conceived of the Rites for Daemons Undivided being split between the four powers. These would generate a number of effects, one of which would be adding a Greater Daemon to the recruit pool. Highly customisable Daemon Princes would be their only Lord choice, so I went for exalted Lesser Daemons as Legendary Lords. When I was thinking of how to implement the army book I left a lot of the Discs of Tzeentch related stuff for the Lord Pack. Having done this, it was natural for the Scribes to be the related lord. Of course, I also had Pyrocasters as a new Hero choice (Flamer champion) so the Changeling could present a similar body type.

Tzeentch Hordes: Kairos Fateweaver, the Changeling
-Unlike the Daemons Undivided, monogod Hordes would have Greater Daemons readily available as Lords. As such, Kairos was with them. For secondary Hordes Lords I went with a mortal-straddling option in most cases (Tamurkahn, Valkia, Dechala) so I thought about including Vilitch here. I ended up with the Changeling because I really liked it and wanted it in game, even though he's a straight up Daemon. As a result of Vilitch not being in the game, I stole his deal for a generic "Curselings" unit in the Tzeentch Horde. (I did this with a lot of the unused characters. Karanak provided Khonate Hordes with "Hounds of Vengeace", etc.)