Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

DLC Power Creep in Total War Warhammer 2 - A video by Indypride of MilkandcookiesTW

WothanazWothanaz Registered Users Posts: 82



I've seen it twice, and I not only agree with Indypride, but also would dare to say that this video is a MUST for CA.
I really think they should give us fixes and balance patches in a more constant way.
I can wait the 5-6 months for major content patches, however seeing how buggy was the last patch, i expect a more quality assurance in that regard.
Let's hope this can change in the future.
What do you think?

Warhammer almost quoting Heraclitus:
"Is not the only constant in the universe change? some day all this will be dust, and even the stars above us will flicker and grow dim. Your life is but a tiny candle in the darkness, and your death an afterthought shorn of meaning by its insignificance. Come, little one, and let me show you how your flame can burn bright..."
-Vilitreska, Lord of the Flux
«13

Comments

  • gunner8521gunner8521 Registered Users Posts: 428
    edited May 2019
    since we have no Idea when the new lord packs are expected to come out and Race Packs are out. They can use some of the extra time to modify campaigns of old factions.

    This would be in addition to some optimization to the game as well. I'm starting to really get annoyed of the long turn times and considering doing another vortex campaign as Avelorn.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 8,160
    *shrug* makes me want to play out of meta options.

    I'm having a fun expedition into the jungle with Lokhir and romping with the Empire for a bit.


    Still. People will ignore it if the faction they like is OP at the moment.

    Like how people complained that VP were too easy and then Ikit brought nukes and Workshop and no one is complaining all of the sudden.

    I actually won't get the Nukit vs Danger Noodle for now. Maybe once I feel like playing a Skaven or Lizardmen campaign and get then.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,996
    I really hate god damned youtube as a form of media.

    I wish these people would write something instead of blabber on a camera.
  • SelakahSelakah Registered Users Posts: 520
    Power Creep and Feature Creep are the two biggest issues I have with the Trilogy right now.

    The Greenskins' Arachnarok Spider, a core unit from a core faction, is a pixelated, low-resolution mess with robotic animations. The Rotting Levtiathan, a made-up unit for a non-core faction, has much higher resolution textures, a greater level of detail, and beautiful, fluid animations.

    Mortal Empires doesn't feel like a cohesive experience; the divide between Game 1 content, Game 2 content, and Game 2 DLC content is painful and makes me feel like I'm playing different games haphazardly stitched together.





  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,996
    You are playing different games haphazardly stitched together.
  • MrMecHMrMecH Registered Users Posts: 2,297
    edited May 2019
    MP community realized this since Norsca release. I don't think new campaign mechanic is the problem but balancing issue is the real one. Newer factions roster always be more and more versatile and become no weakness at all. Even unit status is absolutely op.

    I will compare the most broken match-up, Minotaur vs Mourngul. Minotaur price is more expansive (1,200 vs 1,000) and have slightly better status. However Mourngul has tons of ability that could overcome Minotaur badly. It has Vanguard Deployment, Hunger, Stalk, Cause Fear, Cause Terror, Anti-Infantry Bonus, Unbreakable (from being Undead) while Minotaur only has Bloodgreed, Cause Fear, No Forest Penalty.

    It look so stupid that Beastmen unit can't has Vanguard Deployment or Hide (Forest) while VP unit can get all of its with cheaper price.
    SHUT UP GIVE US GHORGON!!!!!

  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,996
    You mentioned something vampirate. Everything vampirate is irredeemably broken.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,670
    Itharus said:

    You are playing different games haphazardly stitched together.

    The whole point of the trilogy being a trilogy is to have this not be the case!
    Space Frontier is a sci-fi themed board game I've designed for 2-4 players. Please take a look and enjoy our free Print-and-Play at FreezeDriedGames.com

    If you have any questions about tactics or mechanics in Total War Warhammer multiplayer, feel free to PM me.
  • IndyprideIndypride Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,686
    Itharus said:

    I really hate god damned youtube as a form of media.

    I wish these people would write something instead of blabber on a camera.

    Yes, written media, what a fantastic way to show off the game we're all here for 👀
  • rad13rad13 Member Registered Users Posts: 630
    Kayosiv said:

    Itharus said:

    You are playing different games haphazardly stitched together.

    The whole point of the trilogy being a trilogy is to have this not be the case!
    this logic only holds true if you are happy for everything released at the end to be of the same quality as that released at the start. It's commercially and physically impossible for them to update every single race every time they take the series forward, either with a new game, a new race pack, new campaign mechanics etc.

    if you want and expect CA to constantly improve the quality of the game, then the cost of this is that older parts of the trilogy by definition will be left behind.

    for mine, I think the current approach in working on a game 1 race with a major update alongside each of the new pieces of content is a very good compromise.

  • endikuxendikux Registered Users Posts: 490
    Agree with Indypride 100%. Well made and stated argument.

    I've been harping on this for a year now. THREE KINGDOMS is the cause of all of this. Creative Assembly's chasing of the Chinese Market is the cause of all of this imbalance of the factions.

    It's annoying and stupid that CA would divert resources away from their wildly successful Total War Warhammer series. It feel like a complete betrayal on the level on Blizzard doing the same to Diablo fans in order to create a mobile game to chase the Chinese Market. These companies earn our money through highly successful and popular games, but instead of reinvesting it back into those same products we enjoy, they instead use that profit to chase an entirely new foreign market that has no loyalty to them.

    As a customer this feels horrible and like a betrayal. But I DO get it. They are a company and they want to expand into new markets. Doesn't mean I like it, but I get the business sense of it.

    The problem isn't that CA does this. The infuriating thing is that they openly LIE about it. They LIED to us when they said they weren't siphoning off devs from TW:W2 for 3K. They LIED when they claim this super long patch cycle is because of any reason other than a low dev count. And the LIED when they made the stupidly laughable excuse that "more devs doesn't equal more work on a project." As a developer myself this particular lie drives me up the wall.

    CA wants to have their cake and eat it too. So they lie to the Warhammer players and tell them they aren't doing what they are most obviously doing, which is siphoning off all the devs for another game. And then they compound that lie when they say the number of devs doesn't have an effect anyway. They want people to believe that this is just the norm of how the game is developed so their customers don't get mad at the fact that they are diverting resources towards another game. It's like trying to please 2 girlfriend at the same time. It never works and only leads to big problems.

    So CA should man up and admit the reality of the development state at the minimum. They should invest more devs into the game if they really want to fix things, just as Indypride said. Their current release cycle is ridiculously long but it is juuuuust short enough that by the time 3 months have passed and people are getting uppity they dole out a new patch or content release in order to quiet everyone down until the next overdue feeding.

    Everyone needs to stop buying into the BS "reasons" CA puts out about why content takes so long. Just admit that it is their chasing after a new foreign market and putting us as #2. That is the first step that needs to happen around here instead of people buying into nonsense excuses or being CA apologists.

    The only reason people like myself get worked up about this is that we actually enjoy this stupid game and actually support this stupid company and want it to do better, not worse.
  • rad13rad13 Member Registered Users Posts: 630
    the only time in their entire history that I can recall CA having a fast patching process is when they were trying to repair Rome 2 immediately after launch

    they have never had weekly or monthly patches as part of their development process. For any game. They didn't do it during game 1, they didn't do it during Atilla, and they certainly didn't do it for all their titles prior to Rome 2.

    Please stop blaming three kingdoms. It wasn't the cause of it as they never did it beforehand. It's a massive straw man argument.
  • KelefaneKelefane Registered Users Posts: 2,485
    edited May 2019
    The only real way to remedy it is to go back and give WH1 factions a REAL thorough rework and not just a once over touch up. But I don't see that happening so......

    Fact is some WH1 factions almost need a damn facelift like the Greenskins and Beastmen and I'm not so sure CA has the allotted time to put the effort in to do real justice

  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,996
    Kayosiv said:

    Itharus said:

    You are playing different games haphazardly stitched together.

    The whole point of the trilogy being a trilogy is to have this not be the case!
    I don't disagree.
    Indypride said:

    Itharus said:

    I really hate god damned youtube as a form of media.

    I wish these people would write something instead of blabber on a camera.

    Yes, written media, what a fantastic way to show off the game we're all here for 👀
    For that particular vid? Damn skippy. I mean is the point to highlight the issues or show off the game? A written article could succinctly and eloquently make the point and do it with more alacrity and substantially less bandwidth :-P My issue's with the format not the content btw.
  • Rolf1989Rolf1989 Registered Users Posts: 464
    Itharus said:

    Kayosiv said:

    Itharus said:

    You are playing different games haphazardly stitched together.

    The whole point of the trilogy being a trilogy is to have this not be the case!
    I don't disagree.
    Indypride said:

    Itharus said:

    I really hate god damned youtube as a form of media.

    I wish these people would write something instead of blabber on a camera.

    Yes, written media, what a fantastic way to show off the game we're all here for 👀
    For that particular vid? Damn skippy. I mean is the point to highlight the issues or show off the game? A written article could succinctly and eloquently make the point and do it with more alacrity and substantially less bandwidth :-P My issue's with the format not the content btw.
    Lol. I don't care for youtubers either. But I just don't watch them. There's written discussions about power creep, and every single other topic on this forum, just go read them. You know, my guess is indypride and other youtubers get so many clicks, is because a lot of people enjoy the format.
    So what's your point? I thought you disliked people who want things changed so it caters to them, to the detriment of their core audience (a masterful link to your complaining about 'casuals').

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 21,200
    Having things be OP upon entry seems to be CA's intent rather than a mistake.
    Thanks CA for working with Epic Games to give us Troy for free!
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,376
    Itharus said:

    A written article could succinctly and eloquently make the point and do it with more alacrity and substantially less bandwidth :-P My issue's with the format not the content btw.

    Lol fair enough. I suppose it's a great way to get people thinking about this issue since more people will see it than if it were a written article. Hopefully, the more people that start realizing that is is an issue that has been plaguing the game for over a year now the more people will want something done about it. Which, in turn, will hopefully make CA do something about it and not take another five months to do so only to reintroduce all the same issues with the next OP DLC.

    100% agree with the video though. Love the new content, but man are there issues.
  • Rolf1989Rolf1989 Registered Users Posts: 464

    Having things be OP upon entry seems to be CA's intent rather than a mistake.

    I agree.
    And I do think it's a problem.
    But I would like to remind people of the release of Wood Elves. When they got released they were fun, challenging and balanced. People was **** of that WE archers lost to quarrelers in a straight skirmish, so CA quickly released a patch which buffed Wood Elves.
    So it seem like there's a reason as to why CA would make new units too strong.
  • epic_159732489858zE2g60qepic_159732489858zE2g60q Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,314
    endikux said:

    Agree with Indypride 100%. Well made and stated argument.

    I've been harping on this for a year now. THREE KINGDOMS is the cause of all of this. Creative Assembly's chasing of the Chinese Market is the cause of all of this imbalance of the factions.

    It's annoying and stupid that CA would divert resources away from their wildly successful Total War Warhammer series. It feel like a complete betrayal on the level on Blizzard doing the same to Diablo fans in order to create a mobile game to chase the Chinese Market. These companies earn our money through highly successful and popular games, but instead of reinvesting it back into those same products we enjoy, they instead use that profit to chase an entirely new foreign market that has no loyalty to them.

    As a customer this feels horrible and like a betrayal. But I DO get it. They are a company and they want to expand into new markets. Doesn't mean I like it, but I get the business sense of it.

    The problem isn't that CA does this. The infuriating thing is that they openly LIE about it. They LIED to us when they said they weren't siphoning off devs from TW:W2 for 3K. They LIED when they claim this super long patch cycle is because of any reason other than a low dev count. And the LIED when they made the stupidly laughable excuse that "more devs doesn't equal more work on a project." As a developer myself this particular lie drives me up the wall.

    CA wants to have their cake and eat it too. So they lie to the Warhammer players and tell them they aren't doing what they are most obviously doing, which is siphoning off all the devs for another game. And then they compound that lie when they say the number of devs doesn't have an effect anyway. They want people to believe that this is just the norm of how the game is developed so their customers don't get mad at the fact that they are diverting resources towards another game. It's like trying to please 2 girlfriend at the same time. It never works and only leads to big problems.

    So CA should man up and admit the reality of the development state at the minimum. They should invest more devs into the game if they really want to fix things, just as Indypride said. Their current release cycle is ridiculously long but it is juuuuust short enough that by the time 3 months have passed and people are getting uppity they dole out a new patch or content release in order to quiet everyone down until the next overdue feeding.

    Everyone needs to stop buying into the BS "reasons" CA puts out about why content takes so long. Just admit that it is their chasing after a new foreign market and putting us as #2. That is the first step that needs to happen around here instead of people buying into nonsense excuses or being CA apologists.

    The only reason people like myself get worked up about this is that we actually enjoy this stupid game and actually support this stupid company and want it to do better, not worse.

    If you really need to blame, blame Warhammer 3. Bulk of the Warhammer 2 personnel have moved on to Warhammer 3. Warhammer 2 team now only consist of the DLC team only made of 5 to 10 people.

    At this stage of development, even TW3K have skeleton crew since the only thing being done now is bug fixing before release. The main team has moved on to different project as from release onwards, the DLC team for TW3K will take over.
  • KelefaneKelefane Registered Users Posts: 2,485
    Indypride said:

    Itharus said:

    I really hate god damned youtube as a form of media.

    I wish these people would write something instead of blabber on a camera.

    Yes, written media, what a fantastic way to show off the game we're all here for 👀
    First of all I love your channel and content. However in this case I do think a post here and on Reddit may have done this particular subject more justice because it's easier to get your thoughts and points across via text in a more articulate and thoughtful manner. Maybe do both? Writeup a post on each forum now about power creep?

  • IndyprideIndypride Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,686
    Itharus said:

    Kayosiv said:

    Itharus said:

    You are playing different games haphazardly stitched together.

    The whole point of the trilogy being a trilogy is to have this not be the case!
    I don't disagree.
    Indypride said:

    Itharus said:

    I really hate god damned youtube as a form of media.

    I wish these people would write something instead of blabber on a camera.

    Yes, written media, what a fantastic way to show off the game we're all here for 👀
    For that particular vid? Damn skippy. I mean is the point to highlight the issues or show off the game? A written article could succinctly and eloquently make the point and do it with more alacrity and substantially less bandwidth :-P My issue's with the format not the content btw.
    Lol its no problem, I'm a visual guy and a lot of other people are as well. There's a sense of personal connection with people you can get through voice/commentary that can be hard to replicate through written media, and ultimately this is a videogame with fantastic visuals, I like to show them off whenever possible. Especially when it matches up with whats being discussed ;P
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 8,948
    Itharus said:

    I really hate god damned youtube as a form of media.

    I wish these people would write something instead of blabber on a camera.

    It’s great for working out. Something to keep the ears occupied and the boredom away whilst chiseling away at that perfect sculpt for the glory of Slaanesh.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,810
    edited May 2019
    I don't think power creep is necessarily bad when done tastefully. I've had more fun playing Ikit than any other lord.

    That being said I think Vampirates are a good example of it done badly. All the mechanics without any negatives. More climates than anyone else. The benefits of corruption without any of the negatives etc.

    And he's 100% right that there's no point playing the other Skaven lords. They should have translated the workshop to the others with different buffs. Have Skrolk get pestilens stuff etc. Queek + tretch could get stormvermin, clanrat and warlord or something.

    But, I wonder if a separate balance for MP and SP might be beneficial. Because I love the new Skaven toys, don't want them nerfed at all because they're overperforming. But with the way CA handles 1 patching process there's not a chance of that.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,302
    HoneyBun said:

    It is easy to forget what TW life was like before WH1 released. There were so many voices making negative predictions, so many people calling themselves historical only fans and complaining about fantasy.

    Unsurprisingly in the environment CA did two things:

    1. They toned down the fantasy elements - and magic at release was a joke as s result.
    2. They under invested resources in game 1 just in case it flopped.

    What people now see as power creep is just CA changing to a new level of confidence. The reason people believe it is also simple, it was a long held belief that GW itself had power creep issues and it is a human trait to believe negative things. (These things are also more intense for MP. Anything new takes time to adapt to. Before it is adapted to, it will seem OP - because you are losing and dislike losing)

    What actually happened was that the game 1 races all suffered while it took CA some time to believe in WH as a project. Those races are being fixed. The fact is that is taking some time to achieve - but that does not mean CA is over powering the new races.

    Pretty sure I remember the issue with magic at release being a bug during most if not all of game 1 as Magic in general had been using the scale of one unit size for all unit sizes so it ended up leaving conflicting results being that not everyone plays on the same unit size.
    Example being I play on the biggest unit size and I felt magic was weak in game 1 but I watched a video on a much lower unit size and lords and/or (memory is not clear) units were getting one shot.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • KelefaneKelefane Registered Users Posts: 2,485
    Indypride said:

    Itharus said:

    Kayosiv said:

    Itharus said:

    You are playing different games haphazardly stitched together.

    The whole point of the trilogy being a trilogy is to have this not be the case!
    I don't disagree.
    Indypride said:

    Itharus said:

    I really hate god damned youtube as a form of media.

    I wish these people would write something instead of blabber on a camera.

    Yes, written media, what a fantastic way to show off the game we're all here for 👀
    For that particular vid? Damn skippy. I mean is the point to highlight the issues or show off the game? A written article could succinctly and eloquently make the point and do it with more alacrity and substantially less bandwidth :-P My issue's with the format not the content btw.
    Lol its no problem, I'm a visual guy and a lot of other people are as well. There's a sense of personal connection with people you can get through voice/commentary that can be hard to replicate through written media, and ultimately this is a videogame with fantastic visuals, I like to show them off whenever possible. Especially when it matches up with whats being discussed ;P
    But one has to wonder how much the Devs watch videos like that vs read posts like that. In this case, they are the ones whom your message needs to reach the most. Not us.

  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 8,948
    edited May 2019
    Kelefane said:

    Indypride said:

    Itharus said:

    Kayosiv said:

    Itharus said:

    You are playing different games haphazardly stitched together.

    The whole point of the trilogy being a trilogy is to have this not be the case!
    I don't disagree.
    Indypride said:

    Itharus said:

    I really hate god damned youtube as a form of media.

    I wish these people would write something instead of blabber on a camera.

    Yes, written media, what a fantastic way to show off the game we're all here for 👀
    For that particular vid? Damn skippy. I mean is the point to highlight the issues or show off the game? A written article could succinctly and eloquently make the point and do it with more alacrity and substantially less bandwidth :-P My issue's with the format not the content btw.
    Lol its no problem, I'm a visual guy and a lot of other people are as well. There's a sense of personal connection with people you can get through voice/commentary that can be hard to replicate through written media, and ultimately this is a videogame with fantastic visuals, I like to show them off whenever possible. Especially when it matches up with whats being discussed ;P
    But one has to wonder how much the Devs watch videos like that vs read posts like that. In this case, they are the ones whom your message needs to reach the most. Not us.
    The video watching habits of the developers are arguably unknown to us. They too might enjoy sculpting for Slaanesh.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    I don't mind feature creep. The issue is the time to retroactively update the first content. To put it simply, with the resources spent on that project it's impossible to work on - new features - lifting up old content - serious debugging at the same time. Since only the first element is seen as marketable here goes their focus.

    I feel the big issue is external perception of the game. Ask most people midly interested in the serie and they will tell youa bout the number of DLC. The game is maybe lumped with all the games as service crowd, which it really doesn't deserve. It's objective went from warhammer adaption to warhammer conversion, and the community here has been ahead of what they though they could achieve.

    Now about units, I'll be honest and say I haven't tried out the old factions again in ME, because I've yet to really explore all the vortex and ME turn times are killing me. It's entirely possible they do indeed are OP. But I'll say "making other factions obsolete" is a misnomer. Who the hell play a faction start because it's the most overpowered ?The big issue with Ikkit claw is that he came after other skaven campaigns, not before. And maybe he lacks interesting restrictions.

    By the way, about Vampirates : it seems to me the issue was with the community. Each time a mechanic works AGAINST a faction, the outcry is unending : hordes growth, bretonnian economy, amber, food. Like CA doesn't prioritize tweaking the AI to make the best building/units/skill choices because most people don't want the AI to field better armies than them, CA probably's thinking that it's not worth the hassle to put annoying stuff even if it gives actual flavor to a faction.

    Other thing : let's be honest and say they don't test some pretty fronthand stuff like skills for some characters. They don't have the time to really weight whether a campaign is "too" easy, imho.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,848
    Wothanaz said:




    I've seen it twice, and I not only agree with Indypride, but also would dare to say that this video is a MUST for CA.
    I really think they should give us fixes and balance patches in a more constant way.
    I can wait the 5-6 months for major content patches, however seeing how buggy was the last patch, i expect a more quality assurance in that regard.
    Let's hope this can change in the future.
    What do you think?

    This video reaffirms my belief that the next LP has to be empire vs GS. Those two factions have waited way too long. The flc can be Wood elves or BM
  • AsyranAsyran Registered Users Posts: 559
    My only issue is, I don’t want the new factions nerfed. Total War Warhammer 2 factions feel fun, colourful and have some silly quirks with units.

    I would like Total War Warhammer 1 races to be brought up to their standard. To make this feel like a fun Warhammer game with everything that comes with the setting.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    What is acceptable vs inacceptable nerfs, though ?

    I don't feel granting ikkit a doomrocket at the beginning is very interesting for instance. about replenishment, I dunno, many people resent waiting a few turns in general - and the trend has been to reduce recruitement/replenishment turn times -, but this makes the game quite arcady in a sense.

    there are still a big couple issue about updating correctly the old factions :

    - yes curently they can't monetize on it at all.
    - even if properly updated, they are featured in ME, a boring slog of a campaign. If I want to try a new empire campaign the existence of Naggarond and Lustria isn't really important.

Sign In or Register to comment.