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TW:WH and 3 Kingdoms...bad news for us?

13

Comments

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,425Registered Users
    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    That's not how companies work. A for profit company would make products for both markets, because they are for profit.

    We also know that TWW3 has been in pre production for months now, so CA clearly are making it which neatly disproves your point.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Xenos7Xenos7 Posts: 4,946Registered Users
    Nyxilis said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    There are billions of goods for niche markets that basically toasts your entire point. Or the fact when they found Rome 2 was their most popular the there isn't already a Rome 3 or even better links or more things of that era. Especially when you can't just concentrate in one sole area and retain your market.
    I don't understand what you're trying to say. Obviously there are companies fully dedicated to niche markets. And obviously there are big companies investing into niche markets. Like, McDonald's sells a vegetarian burger. It's quite good, too. But it obviously it is an afterthought for the company, vegetarian food isn't going to be McDonald's main business. They invested a bit in it, but their main interest is going to always be into higher-selling products.

    Now, if half of the population of the US turned vegetarian, of if somehow was possible to produce vegetarian burgers at almost-zero cost, things would change. But it's not the case. So WH is going to be the niche CA product now.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,700Registered Users
    Xenos7 said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    There are billions of goods for niche markets that basically toasts your entire point. Or the fact when they found Rome 2 was their most popular the there isn't already a Rome 3 or even better links or more things of that era. Especially when you can't just concentrate in one sole area and retain your market.
    I don't understand what you're trying to say. Obviously there are companies fully dedicated to niche markets. And obviously there are big companies investing into niche markets. Like, McDonald's sells a vegetarian burger. It's quite good, too. But it obviously it is an afterthought for the company, vegetarian food isn't going to be McDonald's main business. They invested a bit in it, but their main interest is going to always be into higher-selling products.

    Now, if half of the population of the US turned vegetarian, of if somehow was possible to produce vegetarian burgers at almost-zero cost, things would change. But it's not the case. So WH is going to be the niche CA product now.
    By your logic, if the Veggieburger had been super-popular in China, McD would stop selling anything else. I don't have to tell you why that doesn't sound at all realistic, do I?

  • Xenos7Xenos7 Posts: 4,946Registered Users

    Xenos7 said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    There are billions of goods for niche markets that basically toasts your entire point. Or the fact when they found Rome 2 was their most popular the there isn't already a Rome 3 or even better links or more things of that era. Especially when you can't just concentrate in one sole area and retain your market.
    I don't understand what you're trying to say. Obviously there are companies fully dedicated to niche markets. And obviously there are big companies investing into niche markets. Like, McDonald's sells a vegetarian burger. It's quite good, too. But it obviously it is an afterthought for the company, vegetarian food isn't going to be McDonald's main business. They invested a bit in it, but their main interest is going to always be into higher-selling products.

    Now, if half of the population of the US turned vegetarian, of if somehow was possible to produce vegetarian burgers at almost-zero cost, things would change. But it's not the case. So WH is going to be the niche CA product now.
    By your logic, if the Veggieburger had been super-popular in China, McD would stop selling anything else. I don't have to tell you why that doesn't sound at all realistic, do I?
    I didn't say that they would stop. Like, stop cold. But if the Veggiburger turned more popular and cheaper to produce than meat burgers obviously the suits at McD would try to redirect the company to a veggie-first market policy. It would completely reverse priorities.
  • LolTHELolLolTHELol Posts: 769Registered Users
    edited May 25
    Actually this is actually good news.

    This shows CA that customers do like more campaign map features. That they like human factions (this gives more hope for Cathay, Araby and Kislev).

    Furthermore, CA now has more money to spend on their future projects. Namely WH3 and any DLCs they are going to make plus future historical games.

    Also do not forget ton of people who liked the WH games also got 3K. Without the success of WH, 3K would have not been as big a successful. However it is most likely true that 3K has lower costs compared to WH in model and animation section but most likely also has lower DLC potential.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,700Registered Users
    edited May 25
    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    There are billions of goods for niche markets that basically toasts your entire point. Or the fact when they found Rome 2 was their most popular the there isn't already a Rome 3 or even better links or more things of that era. Especially when you can't just concentrate in one sole area and retain your market.
    I don't understand what you're trying to say. Obviously there are companies fully dedicated to niche markets. And obviously there are big companies investing into niche markets. Like, McDonald's sells a vegetarian burger. It's quite good, too. But it obviously it is an afterthought for the company, vegetarian food isn't going to be McDonald's main business. They invested a bit in it, but their main interest is going to always be into higher-selling products.

    Now, if half of the population of the US turned vegetarian, of if somehow was possible to produce vegetarian burgers at almost-zero cost, things would change. But it's not the case. So WH is going to be the niche CA product now.
    By your logic, if the Veggieburger had been super-popular in China, McD would stop selling anything else. I don't have to tell you why that doesn't sound at all realistic, do I?
    I didn't say that they would stop. Like, stop cold. But if the Veggiburger turned more popular and cheaper to produce than meat burgers obviously the suits at McD would try to redirect the company to a veggie-first market policy. It would completely reverse priorities.
    They would still not stop selling everything else.

    Do you know why? Because they know that's stuff people want. The Veggieburger could be a fad. They also have an entire infrastructure and business plans centered around selling the standard stuff, you can't just change them on a whim and risk angering your suppliers you probably have long-term agreements with and that's just the more basic stuff. You'd also have to retrain your personnel, change your ad campaigns and so on and so forth, there's a lot of work going into that.

    The market is one of the most complicated entities that exist. It's people treating running a business as overly simple that cause stuff like Bethesda's recent Fallout '76 brainfart.

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,425Registered Users
    edited May 25
    LolTHELol said:

    Actually this is actually good news.

    This shows CA that customers do like more campaign map features. That they like human factions (this gives more hope for Cathay, Araby and Kislev).

    Furthermore, CA now has more money to spend on their future project. Namely WH3 and any DLCs they are going to make plus future historical games.

    Also do not forget ton of people who liked the WH games also got 3K. Without the success of WH, 3K would have not been as big a successful. However it is most likely true that 3K has lower costs compared to WH in model and animation section but most likely also has lower DLC potential.

    Especially considering CA initially planned game 3 as an expansion.

    Now there's no reason for it not to be a full priced full on TWW game.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Xenos7Xenos7 Posts: 4,946Registered Users

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    That's not how companies work. A for profit company would make products for both markets, because they are for profit.
    Why exactly? Basic business sense says they should direct all production capability to the higher RoI.

    Now, it's not that simple because companies aren't *just* about making money here and now. There is also market positioning, brand loyalty, there are production chains and so on. So yeah, they'll probably produce for both markets. But one market will be the main market, and the others will be secondary.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,425Registered Users
    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    That's not how companies work. A for profit company would make products for both markets, because they are for profit.
    Why exactly? Basic business sense says they should direct all production capability to the higher RoI.

    Now, it's not that simple because companies aren't *just* about making money here and now. There is also market positioning, brand loyalty, there are production chains and so on. So yeah, they'll probably produce for both markets. But one market will be the main market, and the others will be secondary.
    Basic business sense says use both markets because both are profitable. Businesses do not go after the highest RoI to the exclusion of every other profit making opportunity. That's not how business works. Businesses make profit everywhere they can.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 3,007Registered Users
    Xenos7 said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    There are billions of goods for niche markets that basically toasts your entire point. Or the fact when they found Rome 2 was their most popular the there isn't already a Rome 3 or even better links or more things of that era. Especially when you can't just concentrate in one sole area and retain your market.
    I don't understand what you're trying to say. Obviously there are companies fully dedicated to niche markets. And obviously there are big companies investing into niche markets. Like, McDonald's sells a vegetarian burger. It's quite good, too. But it obviously it is an afterthought for the company, vegetarian food isn't going to be McDonald's main business. They invested a bit in it, but their main interest is going to always be into higher-selling products.

    Now, if half of the population of the US turned vegetarian, of if somehow was possible to produce vegetarian burgers at almost-zero cost, things would change. But it's not the case. So WH is going to be the niche CA product now.
    No, all these niche products are still managed by the big boys. LIke all the supposed local indy draft beers are largely owned by the main company. Coke, Pepsi and every other make a bunch of other flavors that don't sell as much as the flagship. Each car company sells more of one model than the other. They still market to groups that have different regulations and they change up for it. Disney still translates out for languages that are far few in others. TV channels and even streaming is more divided than its ever been because companies are getting better at offering to niche audiences or managing multiple products.

    In fact, the greater world market has moved faster to many products than fewer.

    CA has two proven products, they can easily produce big titles between them so they don't grow stale and consider on like they have right now.

    It's once more 100% foolish to think that 3k is all Chinese audience powered. I'd hazard to say most of the audience is the same historical crew but powered by the Chinese audience for a lil a good boost. Aside from the weaker currency there are plenty of purchases this side. I will be picking it up at some point within the next few months. Because me as an American want to play something from old China and to which most games prior have usually failed to do. I 100% hope they do other Chinese eras, a Mongolian game later, and would love to see a few Indian era ones as well.
  • Xenos7Xenos7 Posts: 4,946Registered Users

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    That's not how companies work. A for profit company would make products for both markets, because they are for profit.
    Why exactly? Basic business sense says they should direct all production capability to the higher RoI.

    Now, it's not that simple because companies aren't *just* about making money here and now. There is also market positioning, brand loyalty, there are production chains and so on. So yeah, they'll probably produce for both markets. But one market will be the main market, and the others will be secondary.
    Basic business sense says use both markets because both are profitable. Businesses do not go after the highest RoI to the exclusion of every other profit making opportunity. That's not how business works. Businesses make profit everywhere they can.
    Not *equally*. That's what I said.
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Posts: 1,473Registered Users

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    That's not how companies work. A for profit company would make products for both markets, because they are for profit.

    We also know that TWW3 has been in pre production for months now, so CA clearly are making it which neatly disproves your point.
    Not every company is the same and CA saying something doesn't make it true. I've had 40+ games in development since the age of six if CA's statement can be taken as accurate.They must be really polished by now, I should check.

    The general trend with the gaming industry has been for the biggest companies to just copy each other. In the 00s they were all making Call of Duty clones, in the early 10s they were going all-in on open-world games and now everyone is scrambling to make live service games.

    Companies that aren't doing that, like CA, are only doing anything different because they do not have any reason to believe their attempts would win in that highly-competitive arena. Companies are otherwise perfectly fine with ignoring potential audiences if their resources are better spent elsewher, my go-to example being 2K chasing after the wild-goose of third-person shooters with the unwanted reboot of the X-COM series. Had there not been a backlash or had they not responded to said backlash, we would not have got a return of an X-COM strategy game, produced as an after-thought on the cheap but a much higher ROI than X-COM: The Bureau, which they wanted to be a Gears Of War-killing success.

    A smart company might serve different markets, if they had the long-term thinking that not serving a particular market may cede market-share to another company. Behold EA delaying and then blundering with Sim City 5, arrogantly believing the players had nowhere else to go when given a compromised 'gave as service' with an unnecessary online-only requirement, only to have Paradox win that audience over with Cities: Skylines; a much better version of what is basically the same game.

    You'd think so, but Ubisoft is still one of the most successful companies there is and made it so by making every game they release an Assassin's Creed 2 clone with maps littered in icons representing stuff. They do it because any resource they do not spend on the highest ROI but spend on something else, is money being lost.

    Hollywood is the same, which is why we had five Transformers films by Michael Bay, until the money-well dried up. It's idiotic, I don't like it, there's nothing I can do about it except scream into the bottom of my empty whisky glass.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,425Registered Users
    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    That's not how companies work. A for profit company would make products for both markets, because they are for profit.
    Why exactly? Basic business sense says they should direct all production capability to the higher RoI.

    Now, it's not that simple because companies aren't *just* about making money here and now. There is also market positioning, brand loyalty, there are production chains and so on. So yeah, they'll probably produce for both markets. But one market will be the main market, and the others will be secondary.
    Basic business sense says use both markets because both are profitable. Businesses do not go after the highest RoI to the exclusion of every other profit making opportunity. That's not how business works. Businesses make profit everywhere they can.
    Not *equally*. That's what I said.
    Where's that come into it? Either CA makes money from TWW3 or it doesn't. There's no neat and simple halfway point. They could do a saga game with monos, but that wouldn't make the profit. To make the profit they need to spend the resources. Companies are if anything highly adept at this.

    I can only see 3K benefitting TWW. Having two successes is better than one.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,093Registered Users

    Goatforce said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 is 100% complete, there might be a few extras (including race packs) but I admit they are not needed.
    Is it? I see a big land full of sand yet no Araby to cover it. I see High Elves, dragon themed race without dragonrider LL. I see a potential for Dogs of War but no barking follows. I admit there is plenty to include. Plenty of needed things!

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 will be 75% abandoned only if CA will "delete" the future release LP's and FLC's.
    With nothing to come I think it would be 100%.

    Araby is an incredibly minor race, it was the longest of longshots that they would get in in retrospect - the certainty they would come was mostly fabricated by the forums (myself included admittedly) based on vague hints, resulting in it overhyping itself.

    Also if you want Imrik, surely you should be happy it's LPs coming? That means he still has a shot, though to me he seems more like a FLC slot, sorry may be missing something but he just seems like a generic prince who has been given a named character slot to me.


    They probably had the LPs coming next planned for ages, perhaps even since game 2 launched. Saying 3K had an impact on the decision to do LPs instead of CPs is rather silly.

    On another note, why the hell do people think they are going to just cancel stuff which has already been confirmed to be coming? We know there are LPs coming, we know there is another game coming. Just because this new project is successful doesn't mean they are going to abandon another successful project, come on its one thing being pessimistic, but that is ridiculous.
    Minor or not, it is quite unique and popular among the fans of this game. Quite anticipated too.

    Yes but Araby, DoW and other things never excluded his inclusion. Also knowing CA they might as you say make him FLC and take away great potential of Caledor oriented faction mechanics; combat over intrigues, dragon waking, dragon bond, dragon cavern etc. We could get fully fleshed out LL with a dragon mount that is not just a mount but a spellcaster with dedicated talents.

    They probably had 3K coming planned for ages too. It selling well was given.
    Being anticipated does not change the fact it was extremely unlikely - I mean it is even possible that GW wouldn't allow them to make it for some reason. Also tbh I never really heard many people talking about it until a video showcasing the Vortex map in which an apparent Araby hint was dropped. I might be wrong but all the hype seemed to be manufactured by the forum speculation rather than people going into game 2 thinking Araby would be amazing - before the game was announced I doubt many people cared about them or had even heard of them in some cases - they are a footnote faction. I mean Araby might still come after game 3's main cycle, hopefully they will continue supporting the game and putting out content, which would be cool.

    Combat over intrigues? You mean a fairly standard TW campaign? The dragon stuff seems pretty much precluded by the existance of dragons as a generic unit, and locking them behind a mechanic (waking) would ironically give the dragon oriented faction more restricted access to dragons. This all seems like FLC level stuff to me - a "Workshop" style Dragon Cavern (I assume that's what you meant) could be easily ported over in free content - especially considering Imrik's genericness. Having a dragon does not seem to be a good qualifier for being a DLC LL in a faction that is flush with dragons. I mean I would not complain about a new LL, but this one seems like an uninspired choice to me, sorry. Eltharion vs Grom seems like the way to go to me for DLC, not because Eltharion is a character I'm super into (though the mount makes him more unique as a HE lord atm), but his rivalry gives him a hook as a character choice.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,093Registered Users
    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    That's not how companies work. A for profit company would make products for both markets, because they are for profit.
    Why exactly? Basic business sense says they should direct all production capability to the higher RoI.

    Now, it's not that simple because companies aren't *just* about making money here and now. There is also market positioning, brand loyalty, there are production chains and so on. So yeah, they'll probably produce for both markets. But one market will be the main market, and the others will be secondary.
    Not necessarily, I mean they will absolutely go for the RoI, but they will not put all their eggs in one basket unless they have to, which in this case they don't. The fact is they have the manpower to do both, 3K was likely in development since before WH 1 and we did not notice, it was probably only in the rush to complete (and fix considering the massive delays) the game that it appears to have had an effect on WH. Stuffing everyone into one project when you can put them in 2 is a bad use of resources (especially if one is fairly cheap to make, in which case it doesn't need a huge manpower investment) - 2 income streams is better than 1.

    Besides, 3K is out now, I doubt this will change the fact that the next historical game still has years left to cook, and it has not been CA's style to release a full sequel straight after their game (though I guess Napoleon and Attilla were sort of sequels). They have a project to fill this gap and they will use it.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 5,277Registered Users
    edited May 25
    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 is 100% complete, there might be a few extras (including race packs) but I admit they are not needed.
    Is it? I see a big land full of sand yet no Araby to cover it. I see High Elves, dragon themed race without dragonrider LL. I see a potential for Dogs of War but no barking follows. I admit there is plenty to include. Plenty of needed things!

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 will be 75% abandoned only if CA will "delete" the future release LP's and FLC's.
    With nothing to come I think it would be 100%.

    Araby is an incredibly minor race, it was the longest of longshots that they would get in in retrospect - the certainty they would come was mostly fabricated by the forums (myself included admittedly) based on vague hints, resulting in it overhyping itself.

    Also if you want Imrik, surely you should be happy it's LPs coming? That means he still has a shot, though to me he seems more like a FLC slot, sorry may be missing something but he just seems like a generic prince who has been given a named character slot to me.


    They probably had the LPs coming next planned for ages, perhaps even since game 2 launched. Saying 3K had an impact on the decision to do LPs instead of CPs is rather silly.

    On another note, why the hell do people think they are going to just cancel stuff which has already been confirmed to be coming? We know there are LPs coming, we know there is another game coming. Just because this new project is successful doesn't mean they are going to abandon another successful project, come on its one thing being pessimistic, but that is ridiculous.
    Minor or not, it is quite unique and popular among the fans of this game. Quite anticipated too.

    Yes but Araby, DoW and other things never excluded his inclusion. Also knowing CA they might as you say make him FLC and take away great potential of Caledor oriented faction mechanics; combat over intrigues, dragon waking, dragon bond, dragon cavern etc. We could get fully fleshed out LL with a dragon mount that is not just a mount but a spellcaster with dedicated talents.

    They probably had 3K coming planned for ages too. It selling well was given.
    Being anticipated does not change the fact it was extremely unlikely - I mean it is even possible that GW wouldn't allow them to make it for some reason. Also tbh I never really heard many people talking about it until a video showcasing the Vortex map in which an apparent Araby hint was dropped. I might be wrong but all the hype seemed to be manufactured by the forum speculation rather than people going into game 2 thinking Araby would be amazing - before the game was announced I doubt many people cared about them or had even heard of them in some cases - they are a footnote faction. I mean Araby might still come after game 3's main cycle, hopefully they will continue supporting the game and putting out content, which would be cool.

    Combat over intrigues? You mean a fairly standard TW campaign? The dragon stuff seems pretty much precluded by the existance of dragons as a generic unit, and locking them behind a mechanic (waking) would ironically give the dragon oriented faction more restricted access to dragons. This all seems like FLC level stuff to me - a "Workshop" style Dragon Cavern (I assume that's what you meant) could be easily ported over in free content - especially considering Imrik's genericness. Having a dragon does not seem to be a good qualifier for being a DLC LL in a faction that is flush with dragons. I mean I would not complain about a new LL, but this one seems like an uninspired choice to me, sorry. Eltharion vs Grom seems like the way to go to me for DLC, not because Eltharion is a character I'm super into (though the mount makes him more unique as a HE lord atm), but his rivalry gives him a hook as a character choice.
    It wasn't extremely unlikely. I have seen plenty of threads since the game series were announced.

    Yes. No. More like Dong Zhuo in 3K, exercising intimidation in poitics instead of intrigues. Getting bonuses by gaining glory.

    Walking dragons could be tied to dragon cavern and great many unlocks. Workshop like mechanic is just one of them. Dragons like to hoard things, I'm sure some would be willing to part with them for a price. It can work in both ways, random item you pull from dragon's pile or a named stuff of legends. And the most important part about walking dragons is the possibility to put Dragon Princes on them, specifically drakes, that is young Sun Dragons. Other unit unlocks too are possible.

    High Elves are dragon themed race, of course being a dragonrider is a good qualifier. Generic lords will never make up for LL's importance.

    It is also a chance to get more dragon body variants, visual rework for Lore of Fire, maybe a new spell too, chance for dragons to speak. To flesh out bond between Caledorians and their draconic allies CA can give the creature unique abilities. Unique take on units and mounts.

    Minaithnir himself can have access to Lore of Fire and turn Prince Imrik into a special kind of hybrid.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • Xenos7Xenos7 Posts: 4,946Registered Users
    Goatforce said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    That's not how companies work. A for profit company would make products for both markets, because they are for profit.
    Why exactly? Basic business sense says they should direct all production capability to the higher RoI.

    Now, it's not that simple because companies aren't *just* about making money here and now. There is also market positioning, brand loyalty, there are production chains and so on. So yeah, they'll probably produce for both markets. But one market will be the main market, and the others will be secondary.
    Not necessarily, I mean they will absolutely go for the RoI, but they will not put all their eggs in one basket unless they have to, which in this case they don't. The fact is they have the manpower to do both, 3K was likely in development since before WH 1 and we did not notice, it was probably only in the rush to complete (and fix considering the massive delays) the game that it appears to have had an effect on WH. Stuffing everyone into one project when you can put them in 2 is a bad use of resources (especially if one is fairly cheap to make, in which case it doesn't need a huge manpower investment) - 2 income streams is better than 1.

    Besides, 3K is out now, I doubt this will change the fact that the next historical game still has years left to cook, and it has not been CA's style to release a full sequel straight after their game (though I guess Napoleon and Attilla were sort of sequels). They have a project to fill this gap and they will use it.
    I'll eat my hat if we don't see a 3K stand alone spin-off in a year.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 18,657Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Well, this has turned into a business discussion. Moved to Chat.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,093Registered Users

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 is 100% complete, there might be a few extras (including race packs) but I admit they are not needed.
    Is it? I see a big land full of sand yet no Araby to cover it. I see High Elves, dragon themed race without dragonrider LL. I see a potential for Dogs of War but no barking follows. I admit there is plenty to include. Plenty of needed things!

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 will be 75% abandoned only if CA will "delete" the future release LP's and FLC's.
    With nothing to come I think it would be 100%.

    Araby is an incredibly minor race, it was the longest of longshots that they would get in in retrospect - the certainty they would come was mostly fabricated by the forums (myself included admittedly) based on vague hints, resulting in it overhyping itself.

    Also if you want Imrik, surely you should be happy it's LPs coming? That means he still has a shot, though to me he seems more like a FLC slot, sorry may be missing something but he just seems like a generic prince who has been given a named character slot to me.


    They probably had the LPs coming next planned for ages, perhaps even since game 2 launched. Saying 3K had an impact on the decision to do LPs instead of CPs is rather silly.

    On another note, why the hell do people think they are going to just cancel stuff which has already been confirmed to be coming? We know there are LPs coming, we know there is another game coming. Just because this new project is successful doesn't mean they are going to abandon another successful project, come on its one thing being pessimistic, but that is ridiculous.
    Minor or not, it is quite unique and popular among the fans of this game. Quite anticipated too.

    Yes but Araby, DoW and other things never excluded his inclusion. Also knowing CA they might as you say make him FLC and take away great potential of Caledor oriented faction mechanics; combat over intrigues, dragon waking, dragon bond, dragon cavern etc. We could get fully fleshed out LL with a dragon mount that is not just a mount but a spellcaster with dedicated talents.

    They probably had 3K coming planned for ages too. It selling well was given.
    Being anticipated does not change the fact it was extremely unlikely - I mean it is even possible that GW wouldn't allow them to make it for some reason. Also tbh I never really heard many people talking about it until a video showcasing the Vortex map in which an apparent Araby hint was dropped. I might be wrong but all the hype seemed to be manufactured by the forum speculation rather than people going into game 2 thinking Araby would be amazing - before the game was announced I doubt many people cared about them or had even heard of them in some cases - they are a footnote faction. I mean Araby might still come after game 3's main cycle, hopefully they will continue supporting the game and putting out content, which would be cool.

    Combat over intrigues? You mean a fairly standard TW campaign? The dragon stuff seems pretty much precluded by the existance of dragons as a generic unit, and locking them behind a mechanic (waking) would ironically give the dragon oriented faction more restricted access to dragons. This all seems like FLC level stuff to me - a "Workshop" style Dragon Cavern (I assume that's what you meant) could be easily ported over in free content - especially considering Imrik's genericness. Having a dragon does not seem to be a good qualifier for being a DLC LL in a faction that is flush with dragons. I mean I would not complain about a new LL, but this one seems like an uninspired choice to me, sorry. Eltharion vs Grom seems like the way to go to me for DLC, not because Eltharion is a character I'm super into (though the mount makes him more unique as a HE lord atm), but his rivalry gives him a hook as a character choice.
    It wasn't extremely unlikely. I have seen plenty of threads since the game series were announced.

    Yes. No. More like Dong Zhuo in 3K, exercising intimidation in poitics instead of intrigues. Getting bonuses by gaining glory.

    Walking dragons could be tied to dragon cavern and and great many unlocks. Workshop like mechanic is just one of them. Dragons like to hoard things, I'm sure some would be willing to part with them for a price. It can work in both ways, random item you pull from dragon's pile or a named stuff of legends. And the most important part about walking dragons is the possibility to put Dragon Princes on them, specifically drakes, that is young Sun Dragons.

    High Elves are dragon themed race, of course being a dragonrider is a good qualifier. Generic lords will never make up for LL's importance.

    It is also a chance to get more dragon body variants, visual rework for Lore of Fire, maybe a new spell too, chance for dragons to speak. To flesh out bond between Caledorians and their draconic allies CA can give the creature unique abilities. Unique take on units and mounts.

    Minaithnir himself can have access to Lore of Fire and turn Prince Imrik into a special kind of hybrid.
    Interesting, I don't think I really saw any of note until game 2 hints got the forum going - outside of the "look at this outlier race that could be put into the game", which has happened for every concievable race even when they obviously weren't coming (amazons and Albion for example), which isn't really the same as people getting hyped for a specific faction that they are excited for.

    Again, restricting dragons for the dragon focussed race seems counterproductive for them. Getting stuff from dragon hordes is a bit meh when HEs already have rite that gives them an item, and even so is not really a huge feature. I doubt they are going to randomly give dragons - a unit we already have - voiced lines in a DLC. Lore of fire doesn't need a visual rework, it is good as is, though I would welcome completion of all the lores of magic, it is sucky that many have a spell missing (for god's sake CA at least give Morathi Anzipaal's Black Horror, it's already in the game!).

    Did HE dragons have unique abilities on TT? If not seems unlikely, and also DLC is not where we get reworks of existing units. Same with new bodies etc, I mean unit variants are good but DLC again is about adding new, not reworking old.

    If everyone and their mom can ride a dragon (admittedly barring the LLs) it does not make a character a standout.

    I mean giving a character lore of fire when he has his mount is cool, did he have that on TT? Still this is all very FLC level stuff.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 5,277Registered Users
    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 is 100% complete, there might be a few extras (including race packs) but I admit they are not needed.
    Is it? I see a big land full of sand yet no Araby to cover it. I see High Elves, dragon themed race without dragonrider LL. I see a potential for Dogs of War but no barking follows. I admit there is plenty to include. Plenty of needed things!

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 will be 75% abandoned only if CA will "delete" the future release LP's and FLC's.
    With nothing to come I think it would be 100%.

    Araby is an incredibly minor race, it was the longest of longshots that they would get in in retrospect - the certainty they would come was mostly fabricated by the forums (myself included admittedly) based on vague hints, resulting in it overhyping itself.

    Also if you want Imrik, surely you should be happy it's LPs coming? That means he still has a shot, though to me he seems more like a FLC slot, sorry may be missing something but he just seems like a generic prince who has been given a named character slot to me.


    They probably had the LPs coming next planned for ages, perhaps even since game 2 launched. Saying 3K had an impact on the decision to do LPs instead of CPs is rather silly.

    On another note, why the hell do people think they are going to just cancel stuff which has already been confirmed to be coming? We know there are LPs coming, we know there is another game coming. Just because this new project is successful doesn't mean they are going to abandon another successful project, come on its one thing being pessimistic, but that is ridiculous.
    Minor or not, it is quite unique and popular among the fans of this game. Quite anticipated too.

    Yes but Araby, DoW and other things never excluded his inclusion. Also knowing CA they might as you say make him FLC and take away great potential of Caledor oriented faction mechanics; combat over intrigues, dragon waking, dragon bond, dragon cavern etc. We could get fully fleshed out LL with a dragon mount that is not just a mount but a spellcaster with dedicated talents.

    They probably had 3K coming planned for ages too. It selling well was given.
    Being anticipated does not change the fact it was extremely unlikely - I mean it is even possible that GW wouldn't allow them to make it for some reason. Also tbh I never really heard many people talking about it until a video showcasing the Vortex map in which an apparent Araby hint was dropped. I might be wrong but all the hype seemed to be manufactured by the forum speculation rather than people going into game 2 thinking Araby would be amazing - before the game was announced I doubt many people cared about them or had even heard of them in some cases - they are a footnote faction. I mean Araby might still come after game 3's main cycle, hopefully they will continue supporting the game and putting out content, which would be cool.

    Combat over intrigues? You mean a fairly standard TW campaign? The dragon stuff seems pretty much precluded by the existance of dragons as a generic unit, and locking them behind a mechanic (waking) would ironically give the dragon oriented faction more restricted access to dragons. This all seems like FLC level stuff to me - a "Workshop" style Dragon Cavern (I assume that's what you meant) could be easily ported over in free content - especially considering Imrik's genericness. Having a dragon does not seem to be a good qualifier for being a DLC LL in a faction that is flush with dragons. I mean I would not complain about a new LL, but this one seems like an uninspired choice to me, sorry. Eltharion vs Grom seems like the way to go to me for DLC, not because Eltharion is a character I'm super into (though the mount makes him more unique as a HE lord atm), but his rivalry gives him a hook as a character choice.
    It wasn't extremely unlikely. I have seen plenty of threads since the game series were announced.

    Yes. No. More like Dong Zhuo in 3K, exercising intimidation in poitics instead of intrigues. Getting bonuses by gaining glory.

    Walking dragons could be tied to dragon cavern and and great many unlocks. Workshop like mechanic is just one of them. Dragons like to hoard things, I'm sure some would be willing to part with them for a price. It can work in both ways, random item you pull from dragon's pile or a named stuff of legends. And the most important part about walking dragons is the possibility to put Dragon Princes on them, specifically drakes, that is young Sun Dragons.

    High Elves are dragon themed race, of course being a dragonrider is a good qualifier. Generic lords will never make up for LL's importance.

    It is also a chance to get more dragon body variants, visual rework for Lore of Fire, maybe a new spell too, chance for dragons to speak. To flesh out bond between Caledorians and their draconic allies CA can give the creature unique abilities. Unique take on units and mounts.

    Minaithnir himself can have access to Lore of Fire and turn Prince Imrik into a special kind of hybrid.
    Interesting, I don't think I really saw any of note until game 2 hints got the forum going - outside of the "look at this outlier race that could be put into the game", which has happened for every concievable race even when they obviously weren't coming (amazons and Albion for example), which isn't really the same as people getting hyped for a specific faction that they are excited for.

    Again, restricting dragons for the dragon focussed race seems counterproductive for them. Getting stuff from dragon hordes is a bit meh when HEs already have rite that gives them an item, and even so is not really a huge feature. I doubt they are going to randomly give dragons - a unit we already have - voiced lines in a DLC. Lore of fire doesn't need a visual rework, it is good as is, though I would welcome completion of all the lores of magic, it is sucky that many have a spell missing (for god's sake CA at least give Morathi Anzipaal's Black Horror, it's already in the game!).

    Did HE dragons have unique abilities on TT? If not seems unlikely, and also DLC is not where we get reworks of existing units. Same with new bodies etc, I mean unit variants are good but DLC again is about adding new, not reworking old.

    If everyone and their mom can ride a dragon (admittedly barring the LLs) it does not make a character a standout.

    I mean giving a character lore of fire when he has his mount is cool, did he have that on TT? Still this is all very FLC level stuff.
    I have seen plenty of Araby mentions alright.

    Who said anything about restrictions. Those would be much better items, or maybe the ones that could change units appearance visually, standards play quite important role for Dragon Princes after all. Rite of Addaioth, for fire's sake could be added and Invocation of Vaul enhanced. It is big enough. I don't share those doubts. Dragons should be able to communicate and Caledorians offer the best opportunity for it to happen. Lore of Fire is quite outdated in comparison to the recent ones. Dragon Mages for sure could use some new spells.



    No. But they can get them and should considering breath is their only way of firing - even if as Workshop like upgrade. Rework? No. Enhancement for a faction specialised in dragons. Unit variants would of course come free of charge alongside patch. Theme gives an opportunity to revisit lacking elements.

    If LL can't ride a dragon then what is the worth of everyone else and their moms. What everybody should do is to ride griffons, those are far more common creatures.

    He didn't have that on TT. That's more of a lore thing for dragons, ability to learn magic. I have never seen FLC with such rich mechanics. I doubt I ever will. Dragon cavern alone would require quite some work if it is to be done well visually. Not to mention interactive. Ah and let's not forget that Workshop like mechanic too requires some work, upgrades must be displayed visually on the units.

    Eltharion has even less to offer. He brings no new units. Yvresse is more of the same, that is combination of Nagarythe and Lothern. His mechanic is akin to geomantic web. That's it. Ah and Yvresse will miss it's main feature and that is daemonic onslaught, for obvious reasons. Caledorians offer a breeze of fresh air! Focus on cavalry and air units with no nonsense approach to campaign.

    Also the whole idea that Caledor 'stands alone' can play role in faction mechanics. Maybe no option for defensive alliance or at least public penalty for engaging in them.

    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,093Registered Users

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 is 100% complete, there might be a few extras (including race packs) but I admit they are not needed.
    Is it? I see a big land full of sand yet no Araby to cover it. I see High Elves, dragon themed race without dragonrider LL. I see a potential for Dogs of War but no barking follows. I admit there is plenty to include. Plenty of needed things!

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 will be 75% abandoned only if CA will "delete" the future release LP's and FLC's.
    With nothing to come I think it would be 100%.

    Araby is an incredibly minor race, it was the longest of longshots that they would get in in retrospect - the certainty they would come was mostly fabricated by the forums (myself included admittedly) based on vague hints, resulting in it overhyping itself.

    Also if you want Imrik, surely you should be happy it's LPs coming? That means he still has a shot, though to me he seems more like a FLC slot, sorry may be missing something but he just seems like a generic prince who has been given a named character slot to me.


    They probably had the LPs coming next planned for ages, perhaps even since game 2 launched. Saying 3K had an impact on the decision to do LPs instead of CPs is rather silly.

    On another note, why the hell do people think they are going to just cancel stuff which has already been confirmed to be coming? We know there are LPs coming, we know there is another game coming. Just because this new project is successful doesn't mean they are going to abandon another successful project, come on its one thing being pessimistic, but that is ridiculous.
    Minor or not, it is quite unique and popular among the fans of this game. Quite anticipated too.

    Yes but Araby, DoW and other things never excluded his inclusion. Also knowing CA they might as you say make him FLC and take away great potential of Caledor oriented faction mechanics; combat over intrigues, dragon waking, dragon bond, dragon cavern etc. We could get fully fleshed out LL with a dragon mount that is not just a mount but a spellcaster with dedicated talents.

    They probably had 3K coming planned for ages too. It selling well was given.
    Being anticipated does not change the fact it was extremely unlikely - I mean it is even possible that GW wouldn't allow them to make it for some reason. Also tbh I never really heard many people talking about it until a video showcasing the Vortex map in which an apparent Araby hint was dropped. I might be wrong but all the hype seemed to be manufactured by the forum speculation rather than people going into game 2 thinking Araby would be amazing - before the game was announced I doubt many people cared about them or had even heard of them in some cases - they are a footnote faction. I mean Araby might still come after game 3's main cycle, hopefully they will continue supporting the game and putting out content, which would be cool.

    Combat over intrigues? You mean a fairly standard TW campaign? The dragon stuff seems pretty much precluded by the existance of dragons as a generic unit, and locking them behind a mechanic (waking) would ironically give the dragon oriented faction more restricted access to dragons. This all seems like FLC level stuff to me - a "Workshop" style Dragon Cavern (I assume that's what you meant) could be easily ported over in free content - especially considering Imrik's genericness. Having a dragon does not seem to be a good qualifier for being a DLC LL in a faction that is flush with dragons. I mean I would not complain about a new LL, but this one seems like an uninspired choice to me, sorry. Eltharion vs Grom seems like the way to go to me for DLC, not because Eltharion is a character I'm super into (though the mount makes him more unique as a HE lord atm), but his rivalry gives him a hook as a character choice.
    It wasn't extremely unlikely. I have seen plenty of threads since the game series were announced.

    Yes. No. More like Dong Zhuo in 3K, exercising intimidation in poitics instead of intrigues. Getting bonuses by gaining glory.

    Walking dragons could be tied to dragon cavern and and great many unlocks. Workshop like mechanic is just one of them. Dragons like to hoard things, I'm sure some would be willing to part with them for a price. It can work in both ways, random item you pull from dragon's pile or a named stuff of legends. And the most important part about walking dragons is the possibility to put Dragon Princes on them, specifically drakes, that is young Sun Dragons.

    High Elves are dragon themed race, of course being a dragonrider is a good qualifier. Generic lords will never make up for LL's importance.

    It is also a chance to get more dragon body variants, visual rework for Lore of Fire, maybe a new spell too, chance for dragons to speak. To flesh out bond between Caledorians and their draconic allies CA can give the creature unique abilities. Unique take on units and mounts.

    Minaithnir himself can have access to Lore of Fire and turn Prince Imrik into a special kind of hybrid.
    Interesting, I don't think I really saw any of note until game 2 hints got the forum going - outside of the "look at this outlier race that could be put into the game", which has happened for every concievable race even when they obviously weren't coming (amazons and Albion for example), which isn't really the same as people getting hyped for a specific faction that they are excited for.

    Again, restricting dragons for the dragon focussed race seems counterproductive for them. Getting stuff from dragon hordes is a bit meh when HEs already have rite that gives them an item, and even so is not really a huge feature. I doubt they are going to randomly give dragons - a unit we already have - voiced lines in a DLC. Lore of fire doesn't need a visual rework, it is good as is, though I would welcome completion of all the lores of magic, it is sucky that many have a spell missing (for god's sake CA at least give Morathi Anzipaal's Black Horror, it's already in the game!).

    Did HE dragons have unique abilities on TT? If not seems unlikely, and also DLC is not where we get reworks of existing units. Same with new bodies etc, I mean unit variants are good but DLC again is about adding new, not reworking old.

    If everyone and their mom can ride a dragon (admittedly barring the LLs) it does not make a character a standout.

    I mean giving a character lore of fire when he has his mount is cool, did he have that on TT? Still this is all very FLC level stuff.
    I have seen plenty of Araby mentions alright.

    Who said anything about restrictions. Those would be much better items, or maybe the ones that could change units appearance visually, standards play quite important role for Dragon Princes after all. Rite of Addaioth, for fire's sake could be added and Invocation of Vaul enhanced. It is big enough. I don't share those doubts. Dragons should be able to communicate and Caledorians offer the best opportunity for it to happen. Lore of Fire is quite outdated in comparison to the recent ones. Dragon Mages for sure could use some new spells.



    No. But they can get them and should considering breath is their only way of firing - even if as Workshop like upgrade. Rework? No. Enhancement for a faction specialised in dragons. Unit variants would of course come free of charge alongside patch. Theme gives an opportunity to revisit lacking elements.

    If LL can't ride a dragon then what is the worth of everyone else and their moms. What everybody should do is to ride griffons, those are far more common creatures.

    He didn't have that on TT. That's more of a lore thing for dragons, ability to learn magic. I have never seen FLC with such rich mechanics. I doubt I ever will. Dragon cavern alone would require quite some work if it is to be done well visually. Not to mention interactive. Ah and let's not forget that Workshop like mechanic too requires some work, upgrades must be displayed visually on the units.

    Eltharion has even less to offer. He brings no new units. Yvresse is more of the same, that is combination of Nagarythe and Lothern. His mechanic is akin to geomantic web. That's it. Ah and Yvresse will miss it's main feature and that is daemonic onslaught, for obvious reasons. Caledorians offer a breeze of fresh air! Focus on cavalry and air units with no nonsense approach to campaign.

    Also the whole idea that Caledor 'stands alone' can play role in faction mechanics. Maybe no option for defensive alliance or at least public penalty for engaging in them.

    I get that you really want Imrik, but this is an adaptation of the TT first and foremost - just making up rules for a factions dragons, solely to justify their inclusion as their own faction indicates that they aren't a DLC-worthy addition.

    But the fact is in this game dragons are extremely common, meaning they do nothing for making a LL stand out. Unless Imrik has some big rivalry or story behind him, he is just another dude with a dragon.

    Also dragons are really nothing new, paying for something to spice up units we have had - in one form or another - since game 1? And new units, well the dragon mage is the only real linked one, which would be an inferior choice to the Archmage, unless you give Dragon Princes dragons as a unit - not an expert but as I recall that goes against both TT and lore, I thought Dragon Princes hadn't ridden dragons (as a standard mount) for millenia.

    Visual changes based on items equipped isn't going to happen, it would need to happen for every faction if they did that, they won't do it just for a HE subfaction. It also isn't in the realm of what a LP offers. The dragon cave thing still sounds like the workshop to me, just with a lot of convolutions (interactions with the dragons?) which are unlikely to fit well in a TW game, and again - dragons are not really something special in this series, we have too many of them - they aren't really a big selling point when the faction already has 3 variants of them. Imrik as a FLC LL with a dragon version of the workshop with maybe a few tweaks (maybe a "Bond" tab with options to modify specific Lords with Dragon Mounts to differentiate them) would be more than sufficient to make them an interesting and fun faction.

    Eltherion isn't really about the units linked to him (obviously there aren't many), it is about his rivalry and what that brings - an X-LP which would be an important step to bringing the series where it needs to be, as well as a solid and established character foundation for the LP, as CA likes to do actual lore rivalries if they can. Through this both game 1 and 2 factions could aproach content completion, which to me is where CA should be aiming.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 5,277Registered Users
    edited May 26
    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 is 100% complete, there might be a few extras (including race packs) but I admit they are not needed.
    Is it? I see a big land full of sand yet no Araby to cover it. I see High Elves, dragon themed race without dragonrider LL. I see a potential for Dogs of War but no barking follows. I admit there is plenty to include. Plenty of needed things!

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 will be 75% abandoned only if CA will "delete" the future release LP's and FLC's.
    With nothing to come I think it would be 100%.

    Araby is an incredibly minor race, it was the longest of longshots that they would get in in retrospect - the certainty they would come was mostly fabricated by the forums (myself included admittedly) based on vague hints, resulting in it overhyping itself.

    Also if you want Imrik, surely you should be happy it's LPs coming? That means he still has a shot, though to me he seems more like a FLC slot, sorry may be missing something but he just seems like a generic prince who has been given a named character slot to me.


    They probably had the LPs coming next planned for ages, perhaps even since game 2 launched. Saying 3K had an impact on the decision to do LPs instead of CPs is rather silly.

    On another note, why the hell do people think they are going to just cancel stuff which has already been confirmed to be coming? We know there are LPs coming, we know there is another game coming. Just because this new project is successful doesn't mean they are going to abandon another successful project, come on its one thing being pessimistic, but that is ridiculous.
    Minor or not, it is quite unique and popular among the fans of this game. Quite anticipated too.

    Yes but Araby, DoW and other things never excluded his inclusion. Also knowing CA they might as you say make him FLC and take away great potential of Caledor oriented faction mechanics; combat over intrigues, dragon waking, dragon bond, dragon cavern etc. We could get fully fleshed out LL with a dragon mount that is not just a mount but a spellcaster with dedicated talents.

    They probably had 3K coming planned for ages too. It selling well was given.
    Being anticipated does not change the fact it was extremely unlikely - I mean it is even possible that GW wouldn't allow them to make it for some reason. Also tbh I never really heard many people talking about it until a video showcasing the Vortex map in which an apparent Araby hint was dropped. I might be wrong but all the hype seemed to be manufactured by the forum speculation rather than people going into game 2 thinking Araby would be amazing - before the game was announced I doubt many people cared about them or had even heard of them in some cases - they are a footnote faction. I mean Araby might still come after game 3's main cycle, hopefully they will continue supporting the game and putting out content, which would be cool.

    Combat over intrigues? You mean a fairly standard TW campaign? The dragon stuff seems pretty much precluded by the existance of dragons as a generic unit, and locking them behind a mechanic (waking) would ironically give the dragon oriented faction more restricted access to dragons. This all seems like FLC level stuff to me - a "Workshop" style Dragon Cavern (I assume that's what you meant) could be easily ported over in free content - especially considering Imrik's genericness. Having a dragon does not seem to be a good qualifier for being a DLC LL in a faction that is flush with dragons. I mean I would not complain about a new LL, but this one seems like an uninspired choice to me, sorry. Eltharion vs Grom seems like the way to go to me for DLC, not because Eltharion is a character I'm super into (though the mount makes him more unique as a HE lord atm), but his rivalry gives him a hook as a character choice.
    It wasn't extremely unlikely. I have seen plenty of threads since the game series were announced.

    Yes. No. More like Dong Zhuo in 3K, exercising intimidation in poitics instead of intrigues. Getting bonuses by gaining glory.

    Walking dragons could be tied to dragon cavern and and great many unlocks. Workshop like mechanic is just one of them. Dragons like to hoard things, I'm sure some would be willing to part with them for a price. It can work in both ways, random item you pull from dragon's pile or a named stuff of legends. And the most important part about walking dragons is the possibility to put Dragon Princes on them, specifically drakes, that is young Sun Dragons.

    High Elves are dragon themed race, of course being a dragonrider is a good qualifier. Generic lords will never make up for LL's importance.

    It is also a chance to get more dragon body variants, visual rework for Lore of Fire, maybe a new spell too, chance for dragons to speak. To flesh out bond between Caledorians and their draconic allies CA can give the creature unique abilities. Unique take on units and mounts.

    Minaithnir himself can have access to Lore of Fire and turn Prince Imrik into a special kind of hybrid.
    Interesting, I don't think I really saw any of note until game 2 hints got the forum going - outside of the "look at this outlier race that could be put into the game", which has happened for every concievable race even when they obviously weren't coming (amazons and Albion for example), which isn't really the same as people getting hyped for a specific faction that they are excited for.

    Again, restricting dragons for the dragon focussed race seems counterproductive for them. Getting stuff from dragon hordes is a bit meh when HEs already have rite that gives them an item, and even so is not really a huge feature. I doubt they are going to randomly give dragons - a unit we already have - voiced lines in a DLC. Lore of fire doesn't need a visual rework, it is good as is, though I would welcome completion of all the lores of magic, it is sucky that many have a spell missing (for god's sake CA at least give Morathi Anzipaal's Black Horror, it's already in the game!).

    Did HE dragons have unique abilities on TT? If not seems unlikely, and also DLC is not where we get reworks of existing units. Same with new bodies etc, I mean unit variants are good but DLC again is about adding new, not reworking old.

    If everyone and their mom can ride a dragon (admittedly barring the LLs) it does not make a character a standout.

    I mean giving a character lore of fire when he has his mount is cool, did he have that on TT? Still this is all very FLC level stuff.
    I have seen plenty of Araby mentions alright.

    Who said anything about restrictions. Those would be much better items, or maybe the ones that could change units appearance visually, standards play quite important role for Dragon Princes after all. Rite of Addaioth, for fire's sake could be added and Invocation of Vaul enhanced. It is big enough. I don't share those doubts. Dragons should be able to communicate and Caledorians offer the best opportunity for it to happen. Lore of Fire is quite outdated in comparison to the recent ones. Dragon Mages for sure could use some new spells.



    No. But they can get them and should considering breath is their only way of firing - even if as Workshop like upgrade. Rework? No. Enhancement for a faction specialised in dragons. Unit variants would of course come free of charge alongside patch. Theme gives an opportunity to revisit lacking elements.

    If LL can't ride a dragon then what is the worth of everyone else and their moms. What everybody should do is to ride griffons, those are far more common creatures.

    He didn't have that on TT. That's more of a lore thing for dragons, ability to learn magic. I have never seen FLC with such rich mechanics. I doubt I ever will. Dragon cavern alone would require quite some work if it is to be done well visually. Not to mention interactive. Ah and let's not forget that Workshop like mechanic too requires some work, upgrades must be displayed visually on the units.

    Eltharion has even less to offer. He brings no new units. Yvresse is more of the same, that is combination of Nagarythe and Lothern. His mechanic is akin to geomantic web. That's it. Ah and Yvresse will miss it's main feature and that is daemonic onslaught, for obvious reasons. Caledorians offer a breeze of fresh air! Focus on cavalry and air units with no nonsense approach to campaign.

    Also the whole idea that Caledor 'stands alone' can play role in faction mechanics. Maybe no option for defensive alliance or at least public penalty for engaging in them.

    I get that you really want Imrik, but this is an adaptation of the TT first and foremost - just making up rules for a factions dragons, solely to justify their inclusion as their own faction indicates that they aren't a DLC-worthy addition.

    But the fact is in this game dragons are extremely common, meaning they do nothing for making a LL stand out. Unless Imrik has some big rivalry or story behind him, he is just another dude with a dragon.

    Also dragons are really nothing new, paying for something to spice up units we have had - in one form or another - since game 1? And new units, well the dragon mage is the only real linked one, which would be an inferior choice to the Archmage, unless you give Dragon Princes dragons as a unit - not an expert but as I recall that goes against both TT and lore, I thought Dragon Princes hadn't ridden dragons (as a standard mount) for millenia.

    Visual changes based on items equipped isn't going to happen, it would need to happen for every faction if they did that, they won't do it just for a HE subfaction. It also isn't in the realm of what a LP offers. The dragon cave thing still sounds like the workshop to me, just with a lot of convolutions (interactions with the dragons?) which are unlikely to fit well in a TW game, and again - dragons are not really something special in this series, we have too many of them - they aren't really a big selling point when the faction already has 3 variants of them. Imrik as a FLC LL with a dragon version of the workshop with maybe a few tweaks (maybe a "Bond" tab with options to modify specific Lords with Dragon Mounts to differentiate them) would be more than sufficient to make them an interesting and fun faction.

    Eltherion isn't really about the units linked to him (obviously there aren't many), it is about his rivalry and what that brings - an X-LP which would be an important step to bringing the series where it needs to be, as well as a solid and established character foundation for the LP, as CA likes to do actual lore rivalries if they can. Through this both game 1 and 2 factions could aproach content completion, which to me is where CA should be aiming.
    Is it though? Latest additions were rather frivolous adaptations. With many loreful and less additions.

    He will stand out just because he will be the first HE LL on a dragon. He and his dragon have unique models. More than a rivalry he offers theme that is an integral part of his whole race and bloodline that is second to Aenarion. Faction that would be unlike any other HE. Open field filled with trembling grass and roaring skies.

    Definitely not new but still adored considering how many people deploy them and have a fun by making dragon stacks. And we wouldn't pay for them. I have said nothing about units in his LP except for Dragon Mages who are heroes. Archmages of course should be added and they too would benefit from Imrik's buff to dragons. That's partially true. Dragon Princes hadn't ridden dragons for quite some time. But there is a prophecy speaking about all dragons awakening during End Times. That's why dragon awakening should be the main faction mechanic.

    Is it not a thing for Skaven, visual upgrades from Workshop? Anyway, it can happen. Those items could just be small changes in appearance, of course no switching weapon types etc. At some point it can happen to everyone in some form, just as TK mechanic went to Dwarfs and Coves to Skaven. A taste of things to come. It is precisely in the realm of what a LP offers. We don't really have enough dragon types in the game. We have 3 variants that differ only in colour and even those are lacking tones, shades and tints. Dragons are a good selling point and TW could benefit from RP elements and interactions. We are speaking about High Elves here, they are dragon themed faction and many people love them for it. I bet CA wouldn't give them half of what you propose for FLC.

    There is not even one unique unit linked to Yvresse. It is not worth to sacrifice High Elves to get cross-overs rolling. Eltharion is a good FLC addition, simpe mechanics for simple faction.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,093Registered Users

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 is 100% complete, there might be a few extras (including race packs) but I admit they are not needed.
    Is it? I see a big land full of sand yet no Araby to cover it. I see High Elves, dragon themed race without dragonrider LL. I see a potential for Dogs of War but no barking follows. I admit there is plenty to include. Plenty of needed things!

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 will be 75% abandoned only if CA will "delete" the future release LP's and FLC's.
    With nothing to come I think it would be 100%.

    Araby is an incredibly minor race, it was the longest of longshots that they would get in in retrospect - the certainty they would come was mostly fabricated by the forums (myself included admittedly) based on vague hints, resulting in it overhyping itself.

    Also if you want Imrik, surely you should be happy it's LPs coming? That means he still has a shot, though to me he seems more like a FLC slot, sorry may be missing something but he just seems like a generic prince who has been given a named character slot to me.


    They probably had the LPs coming next planned for ages, perhaps even since game 2 launched. Saying 3K had an impact on the decision to do LPs instead of CPs is rather silly.

    On another note, why the hell do people think they are going to just cancel stuff which has already been confirmed to be coming? We know there are LPs coming, we know there is another game coming. Just because this new project is successful doesn't mean they are going to abandon another successful project, come on its one thing being pessimistic, but that is ridiculous.
    Minor or not, it is quite unique and popular among the fans of this game. Quite anticipated too.

    Yes but Araby, DoW and other things never excluded his inclusion. Also knowing CA they might as you say make him FLC and take away great potential of Caledor oriented faction mechanics; combat over intrigues, dragon waking, dragon bond, dragon cavern etc. We could get fully fleshed out LL with a dragon mount that is not just a mount but a spellcaster with dedicated talents.

    They probably had 3K coming planned for ages too. It selling well was given.
    Being anticipated does not change the fact it was extremely unlikely - I mean it is even possible that GW wouldn't allow them to make it for some reason. Also tbh I never really heard many people talking about it until a video showcasing the Vortex map in which an apparent Araby hint was dropped. I might be wrong but all the hype seemed to be manufactured by the forum speculation rather than people going into game 2 thinking Araby would be amazing - before the game was announced I doubt many people cared about them or had even heard of them in some cases - they are a footnote faction. I mean Araby might still come after game 3's main cycle, hopefully they will continue supporting the game and putting out content, which would be cool.

    Combat over intrigues? You mean a fairly standard TW campaign? The dragon stuff seems pretty much precluded by the existance of dragons as a generic unit, and locking them behind a mechanic (waking) would ironically give the dragon oriented faction more restricted access to dragons. This all seems like FLC level stuff to me - a "Workshop" style Dragon Cavern (I assume that's what you meant) could be easily ported over in free content - especially considering Imrik's genericness. Having a dragon does not seem to be a good qualifier for being a DLC LL in a faction that is flush with dragons. I mean I would not complain about a new LL, but this one seems like an uninspired choice to me, sorry. Eltharion vs Grom seems like the way to go to me for DLC, not because Eltharion is a character I'm super into (though the mount makes him more unique as a HE lord atm), but his rivalry gives him a hook as a character choice.
    It wasn't extremely unlikely. I have seen plenty of threads since the game series were announced.

    Yes. No. More like Dong Zhuo in 3K, exercising intimidation in poitics instead of intrigues. Getting bonuses by gaining glory.

    Walking dragons could be tied to dragon cavern and and great many unlocks. Workshop like mechanic is just one of them. Dragons like to hoard things, I'm sure some would be willing to part with them for a price. It can work in both ways, random item you pull from dragon's pile or a named stuff of legends. And the most important part about walking dragons is the possibility to put Dragon Princes on them, specifically drakes, that is young Sun Dragons.

    High Elves are dragon themed race, of course being a dragonrider is a good qualifier. Generic lords will never make up for LL's importance.

    It is also a chance to get more dragon body variants, visual rework for Lore of Fire, maybe a new spell too, chance for dragons to speak. To flesh out bond between Caledorians and their draconic allies CA can give the creature unique abilities. Unique take on units and mounts.

    Minaithnir himself can have access to Lore of Fire and turn Prince Imrik into a special kind of hybrid.
    Interesting, I don't think I really saw any of note until game 2 hints got the forum going - outside of the "look at this outlier race that could be put into the game", which has happened for every concievable race even when they obviously weren't coming (amazons and Albion for example), which isn't really the same as people getting hyped for a specific faction that they are excited for.

    Again, restricting dragons for the dragon focussed race seems counterproductive for them. Getting stuff from dragon hordes is a bit meh when HEs already have rite that gives them an item, and even so is not really a huge feature. I doubt they are going to randomly give dragons - a unit we already have - voiced lines in a DLC. Lore of fire doesn't need a visual rework, it is good as is, though I would welcome completion of all the lores of magic, it is sucky that many have a spell missing (for god's sake CA at least give Morathi Anzipaal's Black Horror, it's already in the game!).

    Did HE dragons have unique abilities on TT? If not seems unlikely, and also DLC is not where we get reworks of existing units. Same with new bodies etc, I mean unit variants are good but DLC again is about adding new, not reworking old.

    If everyone and their mom can ride a dragon (admittedly barring the LLs) it does not make a character a standout.

    I mean giving a character lore of fire when he has his mount is cool, did he have that on TT? Still this is all very FLC level stuff.
    I have seen plenty of Araby mentions alright.

    Who said anything about restrictions. Those would be much better items, or maybe the ones that could change units appearance visually, standards play quite important role for Dragon Princes after all. Rite of Addaioth, for fire's sake could be added and Invocation of Vaul enhanced. It is big enough. I don't share those doubts. Dragons should be able to communicate and Caledorians offer the best opportunity for it to happen. Lore of Fire is quite outdated in comparison to the recent ones. Dragon Mages for sure could use some new spells.



    No. But they can get them and should considering breath is their only way of firing - even if as Workshop like upgrade. Rework? No. Enhancement for a faction specialised in dragons. Unit variants would of course come free of charge alongside patch. Theme gives an opportunity to revisit lacking elements.

    If LL can't ride a dragon then what is the worth of everyone else and their moms. What everybody should do is to ride griffons, those are far more common creatures.

    He didn't have that on TT. That's more of a lore thing for dragons, ability to learn magic. I have never seen FLC with such rich mechanics. I doubt I ever will. Dragon cavern alone would require quite some work if it is to be done well visually. Not to mention interactive. Ah and let's not forget that Workshop like mechanic too requires some work, upgrades must be displayed visually on the units.

    Eltharion has even less to offer. He brings no new units. Yvresse is more of the same, that is combination of Nagarythe and Lothern. His mechanic is akin to geomantic web. That's it. Ah and Yvresse will miss it's main feature and that is daemonic onslaught, for obvious reasons. Caledorians offer a breeze of fresh air! Focus on cavalry and air units with no nonsense approach to campaign.

    Also the whole idea that Caledor 'stands alone' can play role in faction mechanics. Maybe no option for defensive alliance or at least public penalty for engaging in them.

    I get that you really want Imrik, but this is an adaptation of the TT first and foremost - just making up rules for a factions dragons, solely to justify their inclusion as their own faction indicates that they aren't a DLC-worthy addition.

    But the fact is in this game dragons are extremely common, meaning they do nothing for making a LL stand out. Unless Imrik has some big rivalry or story behind him, he is just another dude with a dragon.

    Also dragons are really nothing new, paying for something to spice up units we have had - in one form or another - since game 1? And new units, well the dragon mage is the only real linked one, which would be an inferior choice to the Archmage, unless you give Dragon Princes dragons as a unit - not an expert but as I recall that goes against both TT and lore, I thought Dragon Princes hadn't ridden dragons (as a standard mount) for millenia.

    Visual changes based on items equipped isn't going to happen, it would need to happen for every faction if they did that, they won't do it just for a HE subfaction. It also isn't in the realm of what a LP offers. The dragon cave thing still sounds like the workshop to me, just with a lot of convolutions (interactions with the dragons?) which are unlikely to fit well in a TW game, and again - dragons are not really something special in this series, we have too many of them - they aren't really a big selling point when the faction already has 3 variants of them. Imrik as a FLC LL with a dragon version of the workshop with maybe a few tweaks (maybe a "Bond" tab with options to modify specific Lords with Dragon Mounts to differentiate them) would be more than sufficient to make them an interesting and fun faction.

    Eltherion isn't really about the units linked to him (obviously there aren't many), it is about his rivalry and what that brings - an X-LP which would be an important step to bringing the series where it needs to be, as well as a solid and established character foundation for the LP, as CA likes to do actual lore rivalries if they can. Through this both game 1 and 2 factions could aproach content completion, which to me is where CA should be aiming.
    Is it though? Latest additions were rather frivolous adaptations. With many loreful and less additions.

    He will stand out just because he will be the first HE LL on a dragon. He and his dragon have unique models. More than a rivalry he offers theme that is an integral part of his whole race and bloodline that is second to Aenarion. Faction that would be unlike any other HE. Open field filled with trembling grass and roaring skies.

    Definitely not new but still adored considering how many people deploy them and have a fun by making dragon stacks. And we wouldn't pay for them. I have said nothing about units in his LP except for Dragon Mages who are heroes. Archmages of course should be added and they too would benefit from Imrik's buff to dragons. That's partially true. Dragon Princes hadn't ridden dragons for quite some time. But there is a prophecy speaking about all dragons awakening during End Times. That's why dragon awakening should be the main faction mechanic.

    Is it not a thing for Skaven, visual upgrades from Workshop? Anyway, it can happen. Those items could just be small changes in appearance, of course no switching weapon types etc. At some point it can happen to everyone in some form, just as TK mechanic went to Dwarfs and Coves to Skaven. A taste of things to come. It is precisely in the realm of what a LP offers. We don't really have enough dragon types in the game. We have 3 variants that differ only in colour and even those are lacking tones, shades and tints. Dragons are a good selling point and TW could benefit from RP elements and interactions. We are speaking about High Elves here, they are dragon themed faction and many people love them for it. I bet CA wouldn't give them half of what you propose for FLC.

    There is not even one unique unit linked to Yvresse. It is not worth to sacrifice High Elves to get cross-overs rolling. Eltharion is a good FLC addition, simpe mechanics for simple faction.
    Not really, I mean you have the ancient Salamander and Doomrocket, but that is really it for unloreful. RCS (and Lord variant) I believe aren't in TT but in lore. There is also a difference between padding out unit additions or mount options and making up rules for a TT character just to make him somewhat unique.

    We don't have enough dragon types? To my knowledege we have pretty much every "common" dragon type in the WH world, excepting sea dragons and Cathayan dragons. HEs have their 3 TT dragons, they don't need more than that - more really risks bloat. Any more and dragons risk going the way of giants (at least to an extent) illiciting a groan every time one is added as they seem to be everywhere.

    To my knowledge the workshop upgrades have no effect on the models themselves, would be very interesting if I am wrong but pretty sure about this. Perhaps they won't (though considering the workshop is already in game I don't think it is unreasonable) but tbh I am hoping for Eltharion vs Grom with Thorek Ironbrow as FLC anyway.

    Sacrifice HEs? That is a rather strong way to put it. They have a virtually complete unit roster and 4 good LLs, if CA decides that they won't get a LP slot now it won't change the fact HEs are in a good position as they are. Eltharion has a very strong rivalry which would make a good theme, does Imrik? This second LP would also complete the roster, so sacrifice is not a good term considering there are very few factions with completed unit rosters; HEs will do extremely well off the pack, as would the OW who need the attention more, I don't see a guy and his dragon as being a good alternative to this, especially since from all I have seen Eltharion is a popular character anyway.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,093Registered Users
    Xenos7 said:

    Goatforce said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Xenos7 said:

    I don't understand this logic.

    CA aren't going to spend less on TWW3 because they've just made a bucket of cash with 3K. They still want to make a load of money off of TWW.

    Because that's the way a non-profit company would work. All the money gets reinvested. But CA and SEGA are for-profit company. Which means that they chase the better RoI and pocket the profit margin.
    So they're going to choose not to make money on one of their most successful games ever because another game did well? It doesn't work. That's something they'd do if they didn't like long term success and money.
    Let's try to make it simple, then

    Market 1 has a RoI of 10 to 1
    Market 2 has a RoI of 5 to 1

    A non-profit company may be bound to provide to both markets equally. A for-profit company will always produce for Market 1. Till when? Till the market is saturated and the RoI goes below that of Market 2. Then they'll sell to Market 2. Now, 3K seems like a big market with a big RoI, so I anticipate it'll take a long long time before it becomes economically wise to think about Market 2 again.
    That's not how companies work. A for profit company would make products for both markets, because they are for profit.
    Why exactly? Basic business sense says they should direct all production capability to the higher RoI.

    Now, it's not that simple because companies aren't *just* about making money here and now. There is also market positioning, brand loyalty, there are production chains and so on. So yeah, they'll probably produce for both markets. But one market will be the main market, and the others will be secondary.
    Not necessarily, I mean they will absolutely go for the RoI, but they will not put all their eggs in one basket unless they have to, which in this case they don't. The fact is they have the manpower to do both, 3K was likely in development since before WH 1 and we did not notice, it was probably only in the rush to complete (and fix considering the massive delays) the game that it appears to have had an effect on WH. Stuffing everyone into one project when you can put them in 2 is a bad use of resources (especially if one is fairly cheap to make, in which case it doesn't need a huge manpower investment) - 2 income streams is better than 1.

    Besides, 3K is out now, I doubt this will change the fact that the next historical game still has years left to cook, and it has not been CA's style to release a full sequel straight after their game (though I guess Napoleon and Attilla were sort of sequels). They have a project to fill this gap and they will use it.
    I'll eat my hat if we don't see a 3K stand alone spin-off in a year.
    It is quite possible, though they may focus on DLC expansions set in other periods of the war. Perhaps they might do a Napoleon style game based on the An Lushan revolt, which would be several centuries later thus could change things up a little to justify the pricetag.

    Anyway, the overall point still stands that focussing everything on one income stream is a bad idea if a company can avoid it.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 5,277Registered Users
    edited May 26
    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 is 100% complete, there might be a few extras (including race packs) but I admit they are not needed.
    Is it? I see a big land full of sand yet no Araby to cover it. I see High Elves, dragon themed race without dragonrider LL. I see a potential for Dogs of War but no barking follows. I admit there is plenty to include. Plenty of needed things!

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 will be 75% abandoned only if CA will "delete" the future release LP's and FLC's.
    With nothing to come I think it would be 100%.

    Araby is an incredibly minor race, it was the longest of longshots that they would get in in retrospect - the certainty they would come was mostly fabricated by the forums (myself included admittedly) based on vague hints, resulting in it overhyping itself.

    Also if you want Imrik, surely you should be happy it's LPs coming? That means he still has a shot, though to me he seems more like a FLC slot, sorry may be missing something but he just seems like a generic prince who has been given a named character slot to me.


    They probably had the LPs coming next planned for ages, perhaps even since game 2 launched. Saying 3K had an impact on the decision to do LPs instead of CPs is rather silly.

    On another note, why the hell do people think they are going to just cancel stuff which has already been confirmed to be coming? We know there are LPs coming, we know there is another game coming. Just because this new project is successful doesn't mean they are going to abandon another successful project, come on its one thing being pessimistic, but that is ridiculous.
    Minor or not, it is quite unique and popular among the fans of this game. Quite anticipated too.

    Yes but Araby, DoW and other things never excluded his inclusion. Also knowing CA they might as you say make him FLC and take away great potential of Caledor oriented faction mechanics; combat over intrigues, dragon waking, dragon bond, dragon cavern etc. We could get fully fleshed out LL with a dragon mount that is not just a mount but a spellcaster with dedicated talents.

    They probably had 3K coming planned for ages too. It selling well was given.
    Being anticipated does not change the fact it was extremely unlikely - I mean it is even possible that GW wouldn't allow them to make it for some reason. Also tbh I never really heard many people talking about it until a video showcasing the Vortex map in which an apparent Araby hint was dropped. I might be wrong but all the hype seemed to be manufactured by the forum speculation rather than people going into game 2 thinking Araby would be amazing - before the game was announced I doubt many people cared about them or had even heard of them in some cases - they are a footnote faction. I mean Araby might still come after game 3's main cycle, hopefully they will continue supporting the game and putting out content, which would be cool.

    Combat over intrigues? You mean a fairly standard TW campaign? The dragon stuff seems pretty much precluded by the existance of dragons as a generic unit, and locking them behind a mechanic (waking) would ironically give the dragon oriented faction more restricted access to dragons. This all seems like FLC level stuff to me - a "Workshop" style Dragon Cavern (I assume that's what you meant) could be easily ported over in free content - especially considering Imrik's genericness. Having a dragon does not seem to be a good qualifier for being a DLC LL in a faction that is flush with dragons. I mean I would not complain about a new LL, but this one seems like an uninspired choice to me, sorry. Eltharion vs Grom seems like the way to go to me for DLC, not because Eltharion is a character I'm super into (though the mount makes him more unique as a HE lord atm), but his rivalry gives him a hook as a character choice.
    It wasn't extremely unlikely. I have seen plenty of threads since the game series were announced.

    Yes. No. More like Dong Zhuo in 3K, exercising intimidation in poitics instead of intrigues. Getting bonuses by gaining glory.

    Walking dragons could be tied to dragon cavern and and great many unlocks. Workshop like mechanic is just one of them. Dragons like to hoard things, I'm sure some would be willing to part with them for a price. It can work in both ways, random item you pull from dragon's pile or a named stuff of legends. And the most important part about walking dragons is the possibility to put Dragon Princes on them, specifically drakes, that is young Sun Dragons.

    High Elves are dragon themed race, of course being a dragonrider is a good qualifier. Generic lords will never make up for LL's importance.

    It is also a chance to get more dragon body variants, visual rework for Lore of Fire, maybe a new spell too, chance for dragons to speak. To flesh out bond between Caledorians and their draconic allies CA can give the creature unique abilities. Unique take on units and mounts.

    Minaithnir himself can have access to Lore of Fire and turn Prince Imrik into a special kind of hybrid.
    Interesting, I don't think I really saw any of note until game 2 hints got the forum going - outside of the "look at this outlier race that could be put into the game", which has happened for every concievable race even when they obviously weren't coming (amazons and Albion for example), which isn't really the same as people getting hyped for a specific faction that they are excited for.

    Again, restricting dragons for the dragon focussed race seems counterproductive for them. Getting stuff from dragon hordes is a bit meh when HEs already have rite that gives them an item, and even so is not really a huge feature. I doubt they are going to randomly give dragons - a unit we already have - voiced lines in a DLC. Lore of fire doesn't need a visual rework, it is good as is, though I would welcome completion of all the lores of magic, it is sucky that many have a spell missing (for god's sake CA at least give Morathi Anzipaal's Black Horror, it's already in the game!).

    Did HE dragons have unique abilities on TT? If not seems unlikely, and also DLC is not where we get reworks of existing units. Same with new bodies etc, I mean unit variants are good but DLC again is about adding new, not reworking old.

    If everyone and their mom can ride a dragon (admittedly barring the LLs) it does not make a character a standout.

    I mean giving a character lore of fire when he has his mount is cool, did he have that on TT? Still this is all very FLC level stuff.
    I have seen plenty of Araby mentions alright.

    Who said anything about restrictions. Those would be much better items, or maybe the ones that could change units appearance visually, standards play quite important role for Dragon Princes after all. Rite of Addaioth, for fire's sake could be added and Invocation of Vaul enhanced. It is big enough. I don't share those doubts. Dragons should be able to communicate and Caledorians offer the best opportunity for it to happen. Lore of Fire is quite outdated in comparison to the recent ones. Dragon Mages for sure could use some new spells.



    No. But they can get them and should considering breath is their only way of firing - even if as Workshop like upgrade. Rework? No. Enhancement for a faction specialised in dragons. Unit variants would of course come free of charge alongside patch. Theme gives an opportunity to revisit lacking elements.

    If LL can't ride a dragon then what is the worth of everyone else and their moms. What everybody should do is to ride griffons, those are far more common creatures.

    He didn't have that on TT. That's more of a lore thing for dragons, ability to learn magic. I have never seen FLC with such rich mechanics. I doubt I ever will. Dragon cavern alone would require quite some work if it is to be done well visually. Not to mention interactive. Ah and let's not forget that Workshop like mechanic too requires some work, upgrades must be displayed visually on the units.

    Eltharion has even less to offer. He brings no new units. Yvresse is more of the same, that is combination of Nagarythe and Lothern. His mechanic is akin to geomantic web. That's it. Ah and Yvresse will miss it's main feature and that is daemonic onslaught, for obvious reasons. Caledorians offer a breeze of fresh air! Focus on cavalry and air units with no nonsense approach to campaign.

    Also the whole idea that Caledor 'stands alone' can play role in faction mechanics. Maybe no option for defensive alliance or at least public penalty for engaging in them.

    I get that you really want Imrik, but this is an adaptation of the TT first and foremost - just making up rules for a factions dragons, solely to justify their inclusion as their own faction indicates that they aren't a DLC-worthy addition.

    But the fact is in this game dragons are extremely common, meaning they do nothing for making a LL stand out. Unless Imrik has some big rivalry or story behind him, he is just another dude with a dragon.

    Also dragons are really nothing new, paying for something to spice up units we have had - in one form or another - since game 1? And new units, well the dragon mage is the only real linked one, which would be an inferior choice to the Archmage, unless you give Dragon Princes dragons as a unit - not an expert but as I recall that goes against both TT and lore, I thought Dragon Princes hadn't ridden dragons (as a standard mount) for millenia.

    Visual changes based on items equipped isn't going to happen, it would need to happen for every faction if they did that, they won't do it just for a HE subfaction. It also isn't in the realm of what a LP offers. The dragon cave thing still sounds like the workshop to me, just with a lot of convolutions (interactions with the dragons?) which are unlikely to fit well in a TW game, and again - dragons are not really something special in this series, we have too many of them - they aren't really a big selling point when the faction already has 3 variants of them. Imrik as a FLC LL with a dragon version of the workshop with maybe a few tweaks (maybe a "Bond" tab with options to modify specific Lords with Dragon Mounts to differentiate them) would be more than sufficient to make them an interesting and fun faction.

    Eltherion isn't really about the units linked to him (obviously there aren't many), it is about his rivalry and what that brings - an X-LP which would be an important step to bringing the series where it needs to be, as well as a solid and established character foundation for the LP, as CA likes to do actual lore rivalries if they can. Through this both game 1 and 2 factions could aproach content completion, which to me is where CA should be aiming.
    Is it though? Latest additions were rather frivolous adaptations. With many loreful and less additions.

    He will stand out just because he will be the first HE LL on a dragon. He and his dragon have unique models. More than a rivalry he offers theme that is an integral part of his whole race and bloodline that is second to Aenarion. Faction that would be unlike any other HE. Open field filled with trembling grass and roaring skies.

    Definitely not new but still adored considering how many people deploy them and have a fun by making dragon stacks. And we wouldn't pay for them. I have said nothing about units in his LP except for Dragon Mages who are heroes. Archmages of course should be added and they too would benefit from Imrik's buff to dragons. That's partially true. Dragon Princes hadn't ridden dragons for quite some time. But there is a prophecy speaking about all dragons awakening during End Times. That's why dragon awakening should be the main faction mechanic.

    Is it not a thing for Skaven, visual upgrades from Workshop? Anyway, it can happen. Those items could just be small changes in appearance, of course no switching weapon types etc. At some point it can happen to everyone in some form, just as TK mechanic went to Dwarfs and Coves to Skaven. A taste of things to come. It is precisely in the realm of what a LP offers. We don't really have enough dragon types in the game. We have 3 variants that differ only in colour and even those are lacking tones, shades and tints. Dragons are a good selling point and TW could benefit from RP elements and interactions. We are speaking about High Elves here, they are dragon themed faction and many people love them for it. I bet CA wouldn't give them half of what you propose for FLC.

    There is not even one unique unit linked to Yvresse. It is not worth to sacrifice High Elves to get cross-overs rolling. Eltharion is a good FLC addition, simpe mechanics for simple faction.
    Not really, I mean you have the ancient Salamander and Doomrocket, but that is really it for unloreful. RCS (and Lord variant) I believe aren't in TT but in lore. There is also a difference between padding out unit additions or mount options and making up rules for a TT character just to make him somewhat unique.

    We don't have enough dragon types? To my knowledege we have pretty much every "common" dragon type in the WH world, excepting sea dragons and Cathayan dragons. HEs have their 3 TT dragons, they don't need more than that - more really risks bloat. Any more and dragons risk going the way of giants (at least to an extent) illiciting a groan every time one is added as they seem to be everywhere.

    To my knowledge the workshop upgrades have no effect on the models themselves, would be very interesting if I am wrong but pretty sure about this. Perhaps they won't (though considering the workshop is already in game I don't think it is unreasonable) but tbh I am hoping for Eltharion vs Grom with Thorek Ironbrow as FLC anyway.

    Sacrifice HEs? That is a rather strong way to put it. They have a virtually complete unit roster and 4 good LLs, if CA decides that they won't get a LP slot now it won't change the fact HEs are in a good position as they are. Eltharion has a very strong rivalry which would make a good theme, does Imrik? This second LP would also complete the roster, so sacrifice is not a good term considering there are very few factions with completed unit rosters; HEs will do extremely well off the pack, as would the OW who need the attention more, I don't see a guy and his dragon as being a good alternative to this, especially since from all I have seen Eltharion is a popular character anyway.
    RCS leading armies too is unloreful. RCS with hammers are neither loreful nor a TT thing. Invocation of Sotek? The guy appeared once a long, long time ago from what I remember. Warlock Master? I never heard of this guy. Doomsphere? Lore thing, not TT. Workshop giving all kind of bonuses? Definitely not a TT thing. Is it loreful? I doubt it. Skaven magitek is upredictable while in Game2 it becomes more and more stable while gaining power. Probably I have missed few things. And that's just P&W, VCoast and QnC too offer their share with VCoast bordering fanfiction levels.

    Yes, we don't. Almost everything is common in comparison to Star Dragons. High Elves are dragon themed race, they can't get bloated with dragons just as Empire can't get bloated with knightly orders. But giants do appear in great many armies. Unfound complaint.

    Yes, sacrifice. They lack units important to their identity and flavour. Archmages are prime example of it. Followed by Dragon Mages and mages of every discipline, Sea Helms, Anointed of Asuryan, White Lion Chariots, Lothern Skycutters. They are in terrible position. No, Prince Imrik doesn't have a very strong rivalry but neither did Nukit and Tehenhauin or Alarielle and Hellebron. Those were theme LP. Sacrifice is a perfctly fine term. I do see it. He, his dragon and his people are lifeblood of Ulthuan. Prince Imrik too is a popular character, just not in the Greenskin and Crossover circles.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,093Registered Users

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 is 100% complete, there might be a few extras (including race packs) but I admit they are not needed.
    Is it? I see a big land full of sand yet no Araby to cover it. I see High Elves, dragon themed race without dragonrider LL. I see a potential for Dogs of War but no barking follows. I admit there is plenty to include. Plenty of needed things!

    Xenos7 said:

    Yep, I think it's bad news. The series will be half-abandoned, I guess. I would love to be proven wrong, obviously. Will check back in a year time and see if my pessimism was spot on.

    As an optimist I think Game2 will be in 75% abandoned. The first sign of things to come are LP over CP. 3K might the thing I needed for the prophecy of doom and gloom to be completed.
    WH2 will be 75% abandoned only if CA will "delete" the future release LP's and FLC's.
    With nothing to come I think it would be 100%.

    Araby is an incredibly minor race, it was the longest of longshots that they would get in in retrospect - the certainty they would come was mostly fabricated by the forums (myself included admittedly) based on vague hints, resulting in it overhyping itself.

    Also if you want Imrik, surely you should be happy it's LPs coming? That means he still has a shot, though to me he seems more like a FLC slot, sorry may be missing something but he just seems like a generic prince who has been given a named character slot to me.


    They probably had the LPs coming next planned for ages, perhaps even since game 2 launched. Saying 3K had an impact on the decision to do LPs instead of CPs is rather silly.

    On another note, why the hell do people think they are going to just cancel stuff which has already been confirmed to be coming? We know there are LPs coming, we know there is another game coming. Just because this new project is successful doesn't mean they are going to abandon another successful project, come on its one thing being pessimistic, but that is ridiculous.
    Minor or not, it is quite unique and popular among the fans of this game. Quite anticipated too.

    Yes but Araby, DoW and other things never excluded his inclusion. Also knowing CA they might as you say make him FLC and take away great potential of Caledor oriented faction mechanics; combat over intrigues, dragon waking, dragon bond, dragon cavern etc. We could get fully fleshed out LL with a dragon mount that is not just a mount but a spellcaster with dedicated talents.

    They probably had 3K coming planned for ages too. It selling well was given.
    Being anticipated does not change the fact it was extremely unlikely - I mean it is even possible that GW wouldn't allow them to make it for some reason. Also tbh I never really heard many people talking about it until a video showcasing the Vortex map in which an apparent Araby hint was dropped. I might be wrong but all the hype seemed to be manufactured by the forum speculation rather than people going into game 2 thinking Araby would be amazing - before the game was announced I doubt many people cared about them or had even heard of them in some cases - they are a footnote faction. I mean Araby might still come after game 3's main cycle, hopefully they will continue supporting the game and putting out content, which would be cool.

    Combat over intrigues? You mean a fairly standard TW campaign? The dragon stuff seems pretty much precluded by the existance of dragons as a generic unit, and locking them behind a mechanic (waking) would ironically give the dragon oriented faction more restricted access to dragons. This all seems like FLC level stuff to me - a "Workshop" style Dragon Cavern (I assume that's what you meant) could be easily ported over in free content - especially considering Imrik's genericness. Having a dragon does not seem to be a good qualifier for being a DLC LL in a faction that is flush with dragons. I mean I would not complain about a new LL, but this one seems like an uninspired choice to me, sorry. Eltharion vs Grom seems like the way to go to me for DLC, not because Eltharion is a character I'm super into (though the mount makes him more unique as a HE lord atm), but his rivalry gives him a hook as a character choice.
    It wasn't extremely unlikely. I have seen plenty of threads since the game series were announced.

    Yes. No. More like Dong Zhuo in 3K, exercising intimidation in poitics instead of intrigues. Getting bonuses by gaining glory.

    Walking dragons could be tied to dragon cavern and and great many unlocks. Workshop like mechanic is just one of them. Dragons like to hoard things, I'm sure some would be willing to part with them for a price. It can work in both ways, random item you pull from dragon's pile or a named stuff of legends. And the most important part about walking dragons is the possibility to put Dragon Princes on them, specifically drakes, that is young Sun Dragons.

    High Elves are dragon themed race, of course being a dragonrider is a good qualifier. Generic lords will never make up for LL's importance.

    It is also a chance to get more dragon body variants, visual rework for Lore of Fire, maybe a new spell too, chance for dragons to speak. To flesh out bond between Caledorians and their draconic allies CA can give the creature unique abilities. Unique take on units and mounts.

    Minaithnir himself can have access to Lore of Fire and turn Prince Imrik into a special kind of hybrid.
    Interesting, I don't think I really saw any of note until game 2 hints got the forum going - outside of the "look at this outlier race that could be put into the game", which has happened for every concievable race even when they obviously weren't coming (amazons and Albion for example), which isn't really the same as people getting hyped for a specific faction that they are excited for.

    Again, restricting dragons for the dragon focussed race seems counterproductive for them. Getting stuff from dragon hordes is a bit meh when HEs already have rite that gives them an item, and even so is not really a huge feature. I doubt they are going to randomly give dragons - a unit we already have - voiced lines in a DLC. Lore of fire doesn't need a visual rework, it is good as is, though I would welcome completion of all the lores of magic, it is sucky that many have a spell missing (for god's sake CA at least give Morathi Anzipaal's Black Horror, it's already in the game!).

    Did HE dragons have unique abilities on TT? If not seems unlikely, and also DLC is not where we get reworks of existing units. Same with new bodies etc, I mean unit variants are good but DLC again is about adding new, not reworking old.

    If everyone and their mom can ride a dragon (admittedly barring the LLs) it does not make a character a standout.

    I mean giving a character lore of fire when he has his mount is cool, did he have that on TT? Still this is all very FLC level stuff.
    I have seen plenty of Araby mentions alright.

    Who said anything about restrictions. Those would be much better items, or maybe the ones that could change units appearance visually, standards play quite important role for Dragon Princes after all. Rite of Addaioth, for fire's sake could be added and Invocation of Vaul enhanced. It is big enough. I don't share those doubts. Dragons should be able to communicate and Caledorians offer the best opportunity for it to happen. Lore of Fire is quite outdated in comparison to the recent ones. Dragon Mages for sure could use some new spells.



    No. But they can get them and should considering breath is their only way of firing - even if as Workshop like upgrade. Rework? No. Enhancement for a faction specialised in dragons. Unit variants would of course come free of charge alongside patch. Theme gives an opportunity to revisit lacking elements.

    If LL can't ride a dragon then what is the worth of everyone else and their moms. What everybody should do is to ride griffons, those are far more common creatures.

    He didn't have that on TT. That's more of a lore thing for dragons, ability to learn magic. I have never seen FLC with such rich mechanics. I doubt I ever will. Dragon cavern alone would require quite some work if it is to be done well visually. Not to mention interactive. Ah and let's not forget that Workshop like mechanic too requires some work, upgrades must be displayed visually on the units.

    Eltharion has even less to offer. He brings no new units. Yvresse is more of the same, that is combination of Nagarythe and Lothern. His mechanic is akin to geomantic web. That's it. Ah and Yvresse will miss it's main feature and that is daemonic onslaught, for obvious reasons. Caledorians offer a breeze of fresh air! Focus on cavalry and air units with no nonsense approach to campaign.

    Also the whole idea that Caledor 'stands alone' can play role in faction mechanics. Maybe no option for defensive alliance or at least public penalty for engaging in them.

    I get that you really want Imrik, but this is an adaptation of the TT first and foremost - just making up rules for a factions dragons, solely to justify their inclusion as their own faction indicates that they aren't a DLC-worthy addition.

    But the fact is in this game dragons are extremely common, meaning they do nothing for making a LL stand out. Unless Imrik has some big rivalry or story behind him, he is just another dude with a dragon.

    Also dragons are really nothing new, paying for something to spice up units we have had - in one form or another - since game 1? And new units, well the dragon mage is the only real linked one, which would be an inferior choice to the Archmage, unless you give Dragon Princes dragons as a unit - not an expert but as I recall that goes against both TT and lore, I thought Dragon Princes hadn't ridden dragons (as a standard mount) for millenia.

    Visual changes based on items equipped isn't going to happen, it would need to happen for every faction if they did that, they won't do it just for a HE subfaction. It also isn't in the realm of what a LP offers. The dragon cave thing still sounds like the workshop to me, just with a lot of convolutions (interactions with the dragons?) which are unlikely to fit well in a TW game, and again - dragons are not really something special in this series, we have too many of them - they aren't really a big selling point when the faction already has 3 variants of them. Imrik as a FLC LL with a dragon version of the workshop with maybe a few tweaks (maybe a "Bond" tab with options to modify specific Lords with Dragon Mounts to differentiate them) would be more than sufficient to make them an interesting and fun faction.

    Eltherion isn't really about the units linked to him (obviously there aren't many), it is about his rivalry and what that brings - an X-LP which would be an important step to bringing the series where it needs to be, as well as a solid and established character foundation for the LP, as CA likes to do actual lore rivalries if they can. Through this both game 1 and 2 factions could aproach content completion, which to me is where CA should be aiming.
    Is it though? Latest additions were rather frivolous adaptations. With many loreful and less additions.

    He will stand out just because he will be the first HE LL on a dragon. He and his dragon have unique models. More than a rivalry he offers theme that is an integral part of his whole race and bloodline that is second to Aenarion. Faction that would be unlike any other HE. Open field filled with trembling grass and roaring skies.

    Definitely not new but still adored considering how many people deploy them and have a fun by making dragon stacks. And we wouldn't pay for them. I have said nothing about units in his LP except for Dragon Mages who are heroes. Archmages of course should be added and they too would benefit from Imrik's buff to dragons. That's partially true. Dragon Princes hadn't ridden dragons for quite some time. But there is a prophecy speaking about all dragons awakening during End Times. That's why dragon awakening should be the main faction mechanic.

    Is it not a thing for Skaven, visual upgrades from Workshop? Anyway, it can happen. Those items could just be small changes in appearance, of course no switching weapon types etc. At some point it can happen to everyone in some form, just as TK mechanic went to Dwarfs and Coves to Skaven. A taste of things to come. It is precisely in the realm of what a LP offers. We don't really have enough dragon types in the game. We have 3 variants that differ only in colour and even those are lacking tones, shades and tints. Dragons are a good selling point and TW could benefit from RP elements and interactions. We are speaking about High Elves here, they are dragon themed faction and many people love them for it. I bet CA wouldn't give them half of what you propose for FLC.

    There is not even one unique unit linked to Yvresse. It is not worth to sacrifice High Elves to get cross-overs rolling. Eltharion is a good FLC addition, simpe mechanics for simple faction.
    Not really, I mean you have the ancient Salamander and Doomrocket, but that is really it for unloreful. RCS (and Lord variant) I believe aren't in TT but in lore. There is also a difference between padding out unit additions or mount options and making up rules for a TT character just to make him somewhat unique.

    We don't have enough dragon types? To my knowledege we have pretty much every "common" dragon type in the WH world, excepting sea dragons and Cathayan dragons. HEs have their 3 TT dragons, they don't need more than that - more really risks bloat. Any more and dragons risk going the way of giants (at least to an extent) illiciting a groan every time one is added as they seem to be everywhere.

    To my knowledge the workshop upgrades have no effect on the models themselves, would be very interesting if I am wrong but pretty sure about this. Perhaps they won't (though considering the workshop is already in game I don't think it is unreasonable) but tbh I am hoping for Eltharion vs Grom with Thorek Ironbrow as FLC anyway.

    Sacrifice HEs? That is a rather strong way to put it. They have a virtually complete unit roster and 4 good LLs, if CA decides that they won't get a LP slot now it won't change the fact HEs are in a good position as they are. Eltharion has a very strong rivalry which would make a good theme, does Imrik? This second LP would also complete the roster, so sacrifice is not a good term considering there are very few factions with completed unit rosters; HEs will do extremely well off the pack, as would the OW who need the attention more, I don't see a guy and his dragon as being a good alternative to this, especially since from all I have seen Eltharion is a popular character anyway.
    RCS leading armies too is unloreful. RCS with hammers are neither loreful nor a TT thing. Invocation of Sotek? The guy appeared once a long, long time ago from what I remember. Warlock Master? I never heard of this guy. Doomsphere? Lore thing, not TT. Workshop giving all kind of bonuses? Definitely not a TT thing. Is it loreful? I doubt it. Skaven magitek is upredictable while in Game2 it becomes more and more stable while gaining power. Probably I have missed few things. And that's just P&W, VCoast and QnC too offer their share with VCoast bordering fanfiction levels.

    Yes, we don't. Almost everything is common in comparison to Star Dragons. High Elves are dragon themed race, they can't get bloated with dragons just as Empire can't get bloated with knightly orders. But giants do appear in great many armies. Unfound complaint.

    Yes, sacrifice. They lack units important to their identity and flavour. Archmages are prime example of it. Followed by Dragon Mages and mages of every discipline, Sea Helms, Anointed of Asuryan, White Lion Chariots, Lothern Skycutters. They are in terrible position. No, Prince Imrik doesn't have a very strong rivalry but neither did Nukit and Tehenhauin or Alarielle and Hellebron. Those were theme LP. Sacrifice is a perfctly fine term. I do see it. He, his dragon and his people are lifeblood of Ulthuan. Prince Imrik too is a popular character, just not in the Greenskin and Crossover circles.
    Did RCS have a defined weapon of choice? It seems to me they were added due to ease and their relationship with Tehenhuain, and the weapon they were given was simply to make them fill a gap given the lack of lore. RCS chief was simply because LM have no character choices left so a skink lord makes sense, if the Trog had been included I'm fairly sure they would have promoted the Oracle to fit - as they have to have a character in the LP. Warlock Master was part of a supplement. If sotek was manifested once, he can be manifested again, this is not really against the lore. I think Ikkit does have a "forbidden workshop" in the lore, and I believe one of his titles is "Arch Tinkerer of Skryre" or something like that, and he is known to have given incomplete doomwheel plans so he would be the only one to have perfect ones - workshop system works perfectly with his lore. Q&C is consistant with the lore - all the units are 8th, Death Night is a thing Hellebron does, Allarielle's link to Ulthuan is a big part of her lore. Coast draws heavily from MA and Dreadfleet, think the only thing that is full on made up is Cylostra, which was needed to fill a slot.

    6 factions (7 if Ice Wyrm included) have access to dragons, I believe 4 have access to giants? It is absolutely not an unfounded complaint to point out that perhaps we don't need more dragons, we have plenty (unless we somehow get Cathay, Chinese style dragons would be fairly unique). I don't really care that Star Dragons are by far the strongest (except I guess for some Chaos Dragons and I have heard Cathayan Emporer Dragons can give them trouble), they are just a more powerful dragon variant. Would I like more model variety in them? Absolutely. But this series has tons of Dragons - HEs have their 3 TT Dragon variants, that is enough to cement their position as the "Dragon Faction" Whilst I expect more dragon riding characters are coming (Archmages), more dragon variants would be bloat. I wouldn't complain about Imrik and a "Dragon Workshop", but it isn't really a thing that feels massively lacking - at least from a TW perspective (if this were an RPG then absolutely those details should be in, but in a RTS it isn't massively necessary).

    Almost all factions have missing stuff, which can be argued to be important to their flavour. Whilst I would agree HEs should have got Archmage in Q&C and Elves and LM should have their lores of magic it is hardly a sacrifice that they don't have everything when that is a common theme in a lot of races - Skaven for example are missing more than HEs both in units and in iconic rep (Great Clans such as Moulder, Council of 13 for example). If you want a faction that is actually woefully lacking in its TT and lore flavour look at WoC, which is missing all its god representation (except Siggy and Mirror Guard), not HEs, which has the vast majority of its stuff - not being able to sing to dragons hardly compares to WoC. HEs have stuff missing, which will probably be fixed for the most part in the coming LPs, they are not in anything close to a bad position, therefore they are not sacrificing anything. True, CA has dispensed with rivalry where none were suitable, when a character is too important not to include, though there has always at least been a theme (religion vs Science, both being the spiritual leaders of their races) - we have all of the huge names (minus Thanquol and Malus) for game 2 so the obvious choice is to go with the best rivalry to set up the pack.

    But honestly, to use your terminology, if getting content for game 1 races who are in far greater need of it requires "sacrificing" a named prince who doesn't seem to have that much unique about him (you had me excited when you suggested his dragon could cast from lore of fire, but if that isn't actually in his rules) and getting another character who is arguably also fairly generic (but also popular in HE circles as I understand), then 1000 times yes. Imrik can be a FLC with a workshop for Dragons, that would seem to be fine for him from everything I've heard here, many characters have far worse he would be an interesting campaign. Game 1 content updates are a far bigger deal, especially when HEs will be made pretty much content complete by the update anyway. I get that it is dissapointing if you don't get a character you love (I am still pining for Neferata, so I know how it feels) but this series probably can't fit everyone in, it is a question of what benefits the game overall. I don't even like the GS that much (though I hope that will change after the rework and hopeful LP), they are my least favourite faction by a large margin, but X-LPs are just too big a deal to pass up on.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 5,277Registered Users
    edited May 26
    Goatforce said:



    Did RCS have a defined weapon of choice? It seems to me they were added due to ease and their relationship with Tehenhuain, and the weapon they were given was simply to make them fill a gap given the lack of lore. RCS chief was simply because LM have no character choices left so a skink lord makes sense, if the Trog had been included I'm fairly sure they would have promoted the Oracle to fit - as they have to have a character in the LP. Warlock Master was part of a supplement. If sotek was manifested once, he can be manifested again, this is not really against the lore. I think Ikkit does have a "forbidden workshop" in the lore, and I believe one of his titles is "Arch Tinkerer of Skryre" or something like that, and he is known to have given incomplete doomwheel plans so he would be the only one to have perfect ones - workshop system works perfectly with his lore. Q&C is consistant with the lore - all the units are 8th, Death Night is a thing Hellebron does, Allarielle's link to Ulthuan is a big part of her lore. Coast draws heavily from MA and Dreadfleet, think the only thing that is full on made up is Cylostra, which was needed to fill a slot.

    6 factions (7 if Ice Wyrm included) have access to dragons, I believe 4 have access to giants? It is absolutely not an unfounded complaint to point out that perhaps we don't need more dragons, we have plenty (unless we somehow get Cathay, Chinese style dragons would be fairly unique). I don't really care that Star Dragons are by far the strongest (except I guess for some Chaos Dragons and I have heard Cathayan Emporer Dragons can give them trouble), they are just a more powerful dragon variant. Would I like more model variety in them? Absolutely. But this series has tons of Dragons - HEs have their 3 TT Dragon variants, that is enough to cement their position as the "Dragon Faction" Whilst I expect more dragon riding characters are coming (Archmages), more dragon variants would be bloat. I wouldn't complain about Imrik and a "Dragon Workshop", but it isn't really a thing that feels massively lacking - at least from a TW perspective (if this were an RPG then absolutely those details should be in, but in a RTS it isn't massively necessary).

    Almost all factions have missing stuff, which can be argued to be important to their flavour. Whilst I would agree HEs should have got Archmage in Q&C and Elves and LM should have their lores of magic it is hardly a sacrifice that they don't have everything when that is a common theme in a lot of races - Skaven for example are missing more than HEs both in units and in iconic rep (Great Clans such as Moulder, Council of 13 for example). If you want a faction that is actually woefully lacking in its TT and lore flavour look at WoC, which is missing all its god representation (except Siggy and Mirror Guard), not HEs, which has the vast majority of its stuff - not being able to sing to dragons hardly compares to WoC. HEs have stuff missing, which will probably be fixed for the most part in the coming LPs, they are not in anything close to a bad position, therefore they are not sacrificing anything. True, CA has dispensed with rivalry where none were suitable, when a character is too important not to include, though there has always at least been a theme (religion vs Science, both being the spiritual leaders of their races) - we have all of the huge names (minus Thanquol and Malus) for game 2 so the obvious choice is to go with the best rivalry to set up the pack.

    But honestly, to use your terminology, if getting content for game 1 races who are in far greater need of it requires "sacrificing" a named prince who doesn't seem to have that much unique about him (you had me excited when you suggested his dragon could cast from lore of fire, but if that isn't actually in his rules) and getting another character who is arguably also fairly generic (but also popular in HE circles as I understand), then 1000 times yes. Imrik can be a FLC with a workshop for Dragons, that would seem to be fine for him from everything I've heard here, many characters have far worse he would be an interesting campaign. Game 1 content updates are a far bigger deal, especially when HEs will be made pretty much content complete by the update anyway. I get that it is dissapointing if you don't get a character you love (I am still pining for Neferata, so I know how it feels) but this series probably can't fit everyone in, it is a question of what benefits the game overall. I don't even like the GS that much (though I hope that will change after the rework and hopeful LP), they are my least favourite faction by a large margin, but X-LPs are just too big a deal to pass up on.

    No, but hammers are not something associated with skinks. Lore wise skinks don't lead armies. If Sotek manifesting once is enough. Then there is no problem with any loreful addition to Prince Imrik, Caledorians and dragons. Skaven deploy highly volatile units, even Nukit. Them having stable constructs goes aganst their theme. Widowmaker comes to mind as part of that update. Everybody can wield it even though Elves only can claim it. It gives made up wind spell as far as I'm aware. VCoast is a bag of treats. Cylostra was not needed, already existing character could fit caster role. Lore of the Deep is made up. Aranessa leading vampires is made up and probably some other things too.

    It is absolutely unfounded complaint. Emperor Dragon is not Cathayan. Dragon Emperor is Cathayan title. Especially because HE holes are not in double digits those should be filled. Not to mention High Elves are missing fancy models. They would sacrifice thematic integrity if Imrik won't be a LL of choice with Caledorians fleshed out. The obvious choice is to make a good theme and Prince Imrik can fit in many of those. He and his faction offers the most. Also when I speak about dragon variety I mean their appearance. Sun, Moon and Star dragons almost look like copies. Dragon Faction without dragon riding LL is nothing but a joke. It is massively lacking, especially from TW-RTS perspective considering vastly different approach to campaign and battles Caledorians offer.

    Also as someone else said in other thread:

    Agreed on Imrik.

    Even if the Caledor subfaction itself may not necessarily be playable I feel the whole Dragon/Caledor side of the High Elf unit roster isn't properly represented by their lords (and heroes) yet, despite them being a huge deal in the lore. Eltharion, while a cool character, doesn't really do any of these things imo (Eltharion/Yvresse have no stand out units related to them, at least not to the point that other characters in game don't already adequately represent them).

    On TT this was less an issue since it was all about creating your own characters and armies and the generic High Elf lord class, the Prince, had quite a large amount of options and wasn't really overshadowed by Legendary Lords.
    In Total War campaigns however, Legendary Lords tend to outclass generic Lords with all kinds of additional skill trees and other cool stuff so just getting a Prince to try to represent the Caledor side of things doesn't really work that well.
    As others have pointed out, he can also start virtually everywhere considering he was quite the adventurous type so no need to stick him next to Tyrion.


    I don't care about Game1 races if their way to spotlight is through usurpation of fire. Justice for the High Elves! Ulthuan, Ulthuan above all, above all in the world! It isn't in his rules but I gather you have no problem with loreful additions judging by your comment in defence of other irregularities not present on TT or even in the lore. Prince Imrik does appear in the End Times book so he isn't really generic. To do justice to Prince Imrik, Dragonrealm, his people and Ulthuan as whole he requires far more work than FLC will ever allow. Not to mention I doubt we would even get 'dragon workshop' for FLC.

    Crossover DLC are a good idea for Game3. Now we have a chance to complete Game2 races.

    High Elves, Dark Elves, Skaven and Lizardmen are the way to go!
    Post edited by Maedrethnir on
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  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,093Registered Users

    Goatforce said:



    Did RCS have a defined weapon of choice? It seems to me they were added due to ease and their relationship with Tehenhuain, and the weapon they were given was simply to make them fill a gap given the lack of lore. RCS chief was simply because LM have no character choices left so a skink lord makes sense, if the Trog had been included I'm fairly sure they would have promoted the Oracle to fit - as they have to have a character in the LP. Warlock Master was part of a supplement. If sotek was manifested once, he can be manifested again, this is not really against the lore. I think Ikkit does have a "forbidden workshop" in the lore, and I believe one of his titles is "Arch Tinkerer of Skryre" or something like that, and he is known to have given incomplete doomwheel plans so he would be the only one to have perfect ones - workshop system works perfectly with his lore. Q&C is consistant with the lore - all the units are 8th, Death Night is a thing Hellebron does, Allarielle's link to Ulthuan is a big part of her lore. Coast draws heavily from MA and Dreadfleet, think the only thing that is full on made up is Cylostra, which was needed to fill a slot.

    6 factions (7 if Ice Wyrm included) have access to dragons, I believe 4 have access to giants? It is absolutely not an unfounded complaint to point out that perhaps we don't need more dragons, we have plenty (unless we somehow get Cathay, Chinese style dragons would be fairly unique). I don't really care that Star Dragons are by far the strongest (except I guess for some Chaos Dragons and I have heard Cathayan Emporer Dragons can give them trouble), they are just a more powerful dragon variant. Would I like more model variety in them? Absolutely. But this series has tons of Dragons - HEs have their 3 TT Dragon variants, that is enough to cement their position as the "Dragon Faction" Whilst I expect more dragon riding characters are coming (Archmages), more dragon variants would be bloat. I wouldn't complain about Imrik and a "Dragon Workshop", but it isn't really a thing that feels massively lacking - at least from a TW perspective (if this were an RPG then absolutely those details should be in, but in a RTS it isn't massively necessary).

    Almost all factions have missing stuff, which can be argued to be important to their flavour. Whilst I would agree HEs should have got Archmage in Q&C and Elves and LM should have their lores of magic it is hardly a sacrifice that they don't have everything when that is a common theme in a lot of races - Skaven for example are missing more than HEs both in units and in iconic rep (Great Clans such as Moulder, Council of 13 for example). If you want a faction that is actually woefully lacking in its TT and lore flavour look at WoC, which is missing all its god representation (except Siggy and Mirror Guard), not HEs, which has the vast majority of its stuff - not being able to sing to dragons hardly compares to WoC. HEs have stuff missing, which will probably be fixed for the most part in the coming LPs, they are not in anything close to a bad position, therefore they are not sacrificing anything. True, CA has dispensed with rivalry where none were suitable, when a character is too important not to include, though there has always at least been a theme (religion vs Science, both being the spiritual leaders of their races) - we have all of the huge names (minus Thanquol and Malus) for game 2 so the obvious choice is to go with the best rivalry to set up the pack.

    But honestly, to use your terminology, if getting content for game 1 races who are in far greater need of it requires "sacrificing" a named prince who doesn't seem to have that much unique about him (you had me excited when you suggested his dragon could cast from lore of fire, but if that isn't actually in his rules) and getting another character who is arguably also fairly generic (but also popular in HE circles as I understand), then 1000 times yes. Imrik can be a FLC with a workshop for Dragons, that would seem to be fine for him from everything I've heard here, many characters have far worse he would be an interesting campaign. Game 1 content updates are a far bigger deal, especially when HEs will be made pretty much content complete by the update anyway. I get that it is dissapointing if you don't get a character you love (I am still pining for Neferata, so I know how it feels) but this series probably can't fit everyone in, it is a question of what benefits the game overall. I don't even like the GS that much (though I hope that will change after the rework and hopeful LP), they are my least favourite faction by a large margin, but X-LPs are just too big a deal to pass up on.

    No, but hammers are not something associated with skinks. Lore wise skinks don't lead armies. If Sotek manifesting once is enough. Then there is no problem with any loreful addition to Prince Imrik, Caledorians and dragons. Skaven deploy highly volatile units, even Nukit. Them having stable constructs goes aganst their theme. Widowmaker comes to mind as part of that update. Everybody can wield it even though Elves only can claim it. It gives made up wind spell as far as I'm aware. VCoast is a bag of treats. Cylostra was not needed, already existing character could fit caster role. Lore of the Deep is made up. Aranessa leading vampires is made up and probably some other things too.

    It is absolutely unfounded complaint. Emperor Dragon is not Cathayan. Dragon Emperor is Cathayan title. Especially because HE holes are not in double digits those should be filled. Not to mention High Elves are missing fancy models. They would sacrifice thematic integrity if Imrik won't be a LL of choice with Caledorians fleshed out. The obvious choice is to make a good theme and Prince Imrik can fit in many of those. He and his faction offers the most. Also when I speak about dragon variety I mean their appearance. Sun, Moon and Star dragons almost look like copies. Dragon Faction without dragon riding LL is nothing but a joke. It is massively lacking, sspecially from TW-RTS perspective considering vastly different approach to campaign and battles Caledorians offer.

    Also as someone else said in other thread:

    Agreed on Imrik.

    Even if the Caledor subfaction itself may not necessarily be playable I feel the whole Dragon/Caledor side of the High Elf unit roster isn't properly represented by their lords (and heroes) yet, despite them being a huge deal in the lore. Eltharion, while a cool character, doesn't really do any of these things imo (Eltharion/Yvresse have no stand out units related to them, at least not to the point that other characters in game don't already adequately represent them).

    On TT this was less an issue since it was all about creating your own characters and armies and the generic High Elf lord class, the Prince, had quite a large amount of options and wasn't really overshadowed by Legendary Lords.
    In Total War campaigns however, Legendary Lords tend to outclass generic Lords with all kinds of additional skill trees and other cool stuff so just getting a Prince to try to represent the Caledor side of things doesn't really work that well.
    As others have pointed out, he can also start virtually everywhere considering he was quite the adventurous type so no need to stick him next to Tyrion.


    I don't care about Game1 races if their way to spotlight is through usurpation of fire. Justice for the High Elves! Ulthuan, Ulthuan above all, above all in the world! It isn't in his rules but I gather you have no problem with loreful additions judging by your comment in defence of other irregularities not present on TT or even in the lore. Prince Imrik does appear in the End Times book so he isn't really generic. To do justice to Prince Imrik, Dragonrealm, his people and Ulthuan as whole he requires far more work than FLC will ever allow. Not to mention I doubt we would even get 'dragon workshop' for FLC.

    Crossover DLC are a good idea for Game3. Now we have a chance to complete Game2 races.

    High Elves, Dark Elves, Skaven and Lizardmen are the way to go!
    Actually Aranessa leading Vampires isn't made up. There is a scenario in Dreadfleet in which Noctilus turns Aranessa (CA seems to have gone halfway on that and had her keep her mortality and independence). What character could they add instead of Cylostra? Every other related character is a servant of either Harkon or Noctilus, and wouldn't make sense in the conflict between them.

    Yes Skaven tech is unpredictable, but that can't really be showcased as almost all TT RNG has been canned, this is more an expression of the limitations of the game than an intentional design divergence.

    Yes on further inspection it seems I had mixed up Emporer Dragons and the Dragon Emperor. This error still does not make my point that Dragons are extremely common in the game setting - even more so than the much bemoaned giants - any less valid. They are extremely common, especially in HEs. Now maybe if they do some reworking to HEs they could make the dragons a little deeper, but new dragon representation isn't particularly necessary. Also thematic integrity? The primary goal is to get the most important characters, good campaign mechanics and a good, preferably filled out, roster of units - this has for the most part been fullfilled for the HEs. The characters that remain are fairly secondary, even if they obviously have some devout followers. It is good that some will have a chance to get in, and that some of the races will likely have filled out unit rosters, but the overall theme of the faction is established, secure and solid. As a fan of the faction you obviously have ideas to elevate it, details to flesh it out, and it would be nice if CA could do that with all the factions, but the faction is very solid already, anything extra is a bonus.

    Game 2 factions are all solid atm, and will of course recieve more from LPs, preferably at least 4 of them - though we only know of 2 atm - that are Cross Game. The content divide between 1 and 2 is getting wider, the reworks are good for this but ideally more needs to be added to game 1 factions. The idea this would be a usurption is silly, both games have had their standard LP runs, now is the time for the focus to change. This is an interconnected trilogy, it is time for CA to fully commit to that, patching up the content divide before the final chapter is the best course of action, not widening it further. This is about the series as a whole, what is best for it is for all its factions to be robust, which will be better to do before a flood of new ones enter the frey, ensuring that many factions are left behind for years as they are at the back of the game 3 schedule. Post game 3 is a place for expanding further, not dashing to bring factions up to date after years of waiting. Imrik can wait at the back of that line or come as FLC (which I am still convinced is where he belongs), he is unnecessary - Eltharion will more than serve as a new LL (possibly expanded as a duel form LL, where the player chooses between "the blind" and "the grim") and will be instrumental in the ascention of the OW races.

    I don't really care if Imrik has just as much a claim, or that he rides a dragon. What I care about, with regards to this series, is making it the best overall experience possible. Imrik is not the way forward for that - Eltharion is, therefore he is the better choice, even if the HE lose out on some mechanics in the short run, in the long run all the factions (including HE who are the open to recieving content in the next game's cycle with X-LPs being introduced) are better off for it.

    But, in the end, all of this is irrelevant. CA has made their decision, who and what we are getting is set, and we have strayed far from the topic of the thread.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 5,277Registered Users
    Goatforce said:

    Goatforce said:



    Did RCS have a defined weapon of choice? It seems to me they were added due to ease and their relationship with Tehenhuain, and the weapon they were given was simply to make them fill a gap given the lack of lore. RCS chief was simply because LM have no character choices left so a skink lord makes sense, if the Trog had been included I'm fairly sure they would have promoted the Oracle to fit - as they have to have a character in the LP. Warlock Master was part of a supplement. If sotek was manifested once, he can be manifested again, this is not really against the lore. I think Ikkit does have a "forbidden workshop" in the lore, and I believe one of his titles is "Arch Tinkerer of Skryre" or something like that, and he is known to have given incomplete doomwheel plans so he would be the only one to have perfect ones - workshop system works perfectly with his lore. Q&C is consistant with the lore - all the units are 8th, Death Night is a thing Hellebron does, Allarielle's link to Ulthuan is a big part of her lore. Coast draws heavily from MA and Dreadfleet, think the only thing that is full on made up is Cylostra, which was needed to fill a slot.

    6 factions (7 if Ice Wyrm included) have access to dragons, I believe 4 have access to giants? It is absolutely not an unfounded complaint to point out that perhaps we don't need more dragons, we have plenty (unless we somehow get Cathay, Chinese style dragons would be fairly unique). I don't really care that Star Dragons are by far the strongest (except I guess for some Chaos Dragons and I have heard Cathayan Emporer Dragons can give them trouble), they are just a more powerful dragon variant. Would I like more model variety in them? Absolutely. But this series has tons of Dragons - HEs have their 3 TT Dragon variants, that is enough to cement their position as the "Dragon Faction" Whilst I expect more dragon riding characters are coming (Archmages), more dragon variants would be bloat. I wouldn't complain about Imrik and a "Dragon Workshop", but it isn't really a thing that feels massively lacking - at least from a TW perspective (if this were an RPG then absolutely those details should be in, but in a RTS it isn't massively necessary).

    Almost all factions have missing stuff, which can be argued to be important to their flavour. Whilst I would agree HEs should have got Archmage in Q&C and Elves and LM should have their lores of magic it is hardly a sacrifice that they don't have everything when that is a common theme in a lot of races - Skaven for example are missing more than HEs both in units and in iconic rep (Great Clans such as Moulder, Council of 13 for example). If you want a faction that is actually woefully lacking in its TT and lore flavour look at WoC, which is missing all its god representation (except Siggy and Mirror Guard), not HEs, which has the vast majority of its stuff - not being able to sing to dragons hardly compares to WoC. HEs have stuff missing, which will probably be fixed for the most part in the coming LPs, they are not in anything close to a bad position, therefore they are not sacrificing anything. True, CA has dispensed with rivalry where none were suitable, when a character is too important not to include, though there has always at least been a theme (religion vs Science, both being the spiritual leaders of their races) - we have all of the huge names (minus Thanquol and Malus) for game 2 so the obvious choice is to go with the best rivalry to set up the pack.

    But honestly, to use your terminology, if getting content for game 1 races who are in far greater need of it requires "sacrificing" a named prince who doesn't seem to have that much unique about him (you had me excited when you suggested his dragon could cast from lore of fire, but if that isn't actually in his rules) and getting another character who is arguably also fairly generic (but also popular in HE circles as I understand), then 1000 times yes. Imrik can be a FLC with a workshop for Dragons, that would seem to be fine for him from everything I've heard here, many characters have far worse he would be an interesting campaign. Game 1 content updates are a far bigger deal, especially when HEs will be made pretty much content complete by the update anyway. I get that it is dissapointing if you don't get a character you love (I am still pining for Neferata, so I know how it feels) but this series probably can't fit everyone in, it is a question of what benefits the game overall. I don't even like the GS that much (though I hope that will change after the rework and hopeful LP), they are my least favourite faction by a large margin, but X-LPs are just too big a deal to pass up on.

    No, but hammers are not something associated with skinks. Lore wise skinks don't lead armies. If Sotek manifesting once is enough. Then there is no problem with any loreful addition to Prince Imrik, Caledorians and dragons. Skaven deploy highly volatile units, even Nukit. Them having stable constructs goes aganst their theme. Widowmaker comes to mind as part of that update. Everybody can wield it even though Elves only can claim it. It gives made up wind spell as far as I'm aware. VCoast is a bag of treats. Cylostra was not needed, already existing character could fit caster role. Lore of the Deep is made up. Aranessa leading vampires is made up and probably some other things too.

    It is absolutely unfounded complaint. Emperor Dragon is not Cathayan. Dragon Emperor is Cathayan title. Especially because HE holes are not in double digits those should be filled. Not to mention High Elves are missing fancy models. They would sacrifice thematic integrity if Imrik won't be a LL of choice with Caledorians fleshed out. The obvious choice is to make a good theme and Prince Imrik can fit in many of those. He and his faction offers the most. Also when I speak about dragon variety I mean their appearance. Sun, Moon and Star dragons almost look like copies. Dragon Faction without dragon riding LL is nothing but a joke. It is massively lacking, sspecially from TW-RTS perspective considering vastly different approach to campaign and battles Caledorians offer.

    Also as someone else said in other thread:

    Agreed on Imrik.

    Even if the Caledor subfaction itself may not necessarily be playable I feel the whole Dragon/Caledor side of the High Elf unit roster isn't properly represented by their lords (and heroes) yet, despite them being a huge deal in the lore. Eltharion, while a cool character, doesn't really do any of these things imo (Eltharion/Yvresse have no stand out units related to them, at least not to the point that other characters in game don't already adequately represent them).

    On TT this was less an issue since it was all about creating your own characters and armies and the generic High Elf lord class, the Prince, had quite a large amount of options and wasn't really overshadowed by Legendary Lords.
    In Total War campaigns however, Legendary Lords tend to outclass generic Lords with all kinds of additional skill trees and other cool stuff so just getting a Prince to try to represent the Caledor side of things doesn't really work that well.
    As others have pointed out, he can also start virtually everywhere considering he was quite the adventurous type so no need to stick him next to Tyrion.


    I don't care about Game1 races if their way to spotlight is through usurpation of fire. Justice for the High Elves! Ulthuan, Ulthuan above all, above all in the world! It isn't in his rules but I gather you have no problem with loreful additions judging by your comment in defence of other irregularities not present on TT or even in the lore. Prince Imrik does appear in the End Times book so he isn't really generic. To do justice to Prince Imrik, Dragonrealm, his people and Ulthuan as whole he requires far more work than FLC will ever allow. Not to mention I doubt we would even get 'dragon workshop' for FLC.

    Crossover DLC are a good idea for Game3. Now we have a chance to complete Game2 races.

    High Elves, Dark Elves, Skaven and Lizardmen are the way to go!
    Actually Aranessa leading Vampires isn't made up. There is a scenario in Dreadfleet in which Noctilus turns Aranessa (CA seems to have gone halfway on that and had her keep her mortality and independence). What character could they add instead of Cylostra? Every other related character is a servant of either Harkon or Noctilus, and wouldn't make sense in the conflict between them.

    Yes Skaven tech is unpredictable, but that can't really be showcased as almost all TT RNG has been canned, this is more an expression of the limitations of the game than an intentional design divergence.

    Yes on further inspection it seems I had mixed up Emporer Dragons and the Dragon Emperor. This error still does not make my point that Dragons are extremely common in the game setting - even more so than the much bemoaned giants - any less valid. They are extremely common, especially in HEs. Now maybe if they do some reworking to HEs they could make the dragons a little deeper, but new dragon representation isn't particularly necessary. Also thematic integrity? The primary goal is to get the most important characters, good campaign mechanics and a good, preferably filled out, roster of units - this has for the most part been fullfilled for the HEs. The characters that remain are fairly secondary, even if they obviously have some devout followers. It is good that some will have a chance to get in, and that some of the races will likely have filled out unit rosters, but the overall theme of the faction is established, secure and solid. As a fan of the faction you obviously have ideas to elevate it, details to flesh it out, and it would be nice if CA could do that with all the factions, but the faction is very solid already, anything extra is a bonus.

    Game 2 factions are all solid atm, and will of course recieve more from LPs, preferably at least 4 of them - though we only know of 2 atm - that are Cross Game. The content divide between 1 and 2 is getting wider, the reworks are good for this but ideally more needs to be added to game 1 factions. The idea this would be a usurption is silly, both games have had their standard LP runs, now is the time for the focus to change. This is an interconnected trilogy, it is time for CA to fully commit to that, patching up the content divide before the final chapter is the best course of action, not widening it further. This is about the series as a whole, what is best for it is for all its factions to be robust, which will be better to do before a flood of new ones enter the frey, ensuring that many factions are left behind for years as they are at the back of the game 3 schedule. Post game 3 is a place for expanding further, not dashing to bring factions up to date after years of waiting. Imrik can wait at the back of that line or come as FLC (which I am still convinced is where he belongs), he is unnecessary - Eltharion will more than serve as a new LL (possibly expanded as a duel form LL, where the player chooses between "the blind" and "the grim") and will be instrumental in the ascention of the OW races.

    I don't really care if Imrik has just as much a claim, or that he rides a dragon. What I care about, with regards to this series, is making it the best overall experience possible. Imrik is not the way forward for that - Eltharion is, therefore he is the better choice, even if the HE lose out on some mechanics in the short run, in the long run all the factions (including HE who are the open to recieving content in the next game's cycle with X-LPs being introduced) are better off for it.

    But, in the end, all of this is irrelevant. CA has made their decision, who and what we are getting is set, and we have strayed far from the topic of the thread.
    It is made up. Tyrion is a brother of Teclis yet they can fight each other. Louen's crown depends on Fay Enchantress yet he can fight her. Being a servant is a non issue.

    Many TT elements have been canned. Inclusion of RNG is not a rocket science code wise, it is a divergence. Winds of Magic pre battle roll is one of many RNG elements already present.

    I don't think judging dragons numbers by their breeds is a valid way. Of course it is necessary, the more the merries. Even giants look different among the factions. It adds to world building. Yes, thematic integrity. No, it is not solid without Caledorians. Only roles in rosters have been filled out, not theme and flavour. Anything extra is a much needed addition, not a bonus.

    They are not solid at all. 2LP will be good, I wouldn't hope for more, especially not for crossover. It would be a usurpation. No, it is time to fully flesh out Game2 for it to not share Game1's fate. Oh they will be robust after reworks. Game 3 is a perfect time for crossovers. Precisely what I have been warning people about: High Elves will be used for OW agenda. Vile.

    What I care about is my favourite faction getting its theme done correctly. Eltharion is FLC material, maybe even for Game3 when DoC arrive. Nonsense, condemning High Elves to more of the same is a barbaric solution, not a long run plan. They need a martial kingdom focused on air and cavalry. There are units waiting to be buffed faction wide.

    Yes, and I hope, truly hope they won't go for cross game LP. I allow FLC LL to be from OW but nothing more. That's the limit of my kindness.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
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  • BreadboxBreadbox Posts: 780Registered Users
    edited May 27
    What’s the worst that could happen, Warhammer goes into a limbo for 4 years while CA releases Three Kingdoms 2 next year, Three Kingdom 3 the next followed Three Kingdoms 4?

    You are vastly overestimating the content potential of 3K, the best they gonna do is a expandalone/saga. If they only care about Rol, we would have gotten goddamn Medieval 3 by now.
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