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No more useless retreats. Retreat with honor!!

QuintoMaximoQuintoMaximo Junior MemberPosts: 26Registered Users
I have been playing total war for more than 12 years now and I always thought that there should be a way of getting some units out of a fight without losing half of the unit.

Could it be possible that CA can develop a way of retreating some units in a more neat way, defending themselves while retrating and thus you could replace that unit for other of your reserves. This could work for every total war and in my opinion it would make the battles way more interesting.

What do you think?

Comments

  • NariacNariac Posts: 201Registered Users
    It's almost impossible to disengage from melee combat in good order. I feel the way it works now is fine to be honest. For example, my more disciplined armies are able to hold their lines and pull back only losing a few men - when I'm dwarfs or empire. If I try doing that with skaven, the unit sometimes takes so many hits trying to retreat that it actually breaks, but that makes sense for the rats.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 15,368Registered Users
    Eh. Retreating from melee is always going to be messy. At some point folk need to turn their back, and when they do... Stabby stab!

    Especially since few soldiers are trained to retreat, especially in Warhammer. Possibly the Elves and Empire, but even those are doubtful. Retreating isn't really a Warhammer thing.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • khyronkhyron Posts: 172Registered Users
    A "fighting retreat" Stance would be hard to implement. One where troops fight but attempt to take a step back could be extremely powerful in the hands clever players. Hannibal surrounding a larger Roman force comes to mind.

    For retreating troops off a the map to save them you can run a unit near the border and hit the retreat button one of the flag looking buttons on the unit card stance/orders display. That units card slot will be opened and if any reinforcing units are avaliable they will enter from the reinforcements point. I have used this to swap near dead units for supporting reinforcements such as those times you have 3 (20) unit stacks vs 3 (20) unit stacks, large battles you are limited to 40 units on the battlefield at a time. Telling that life mage who is at healing cap with no wind of magic, and a couple nearly destroyed units that rallied at the board edge to hit the road having them be replaced by a full units for a focused reinforce as opposed to drip feed reinforcements.

    Careful once you do find the button as hitting retreat confers all the penalties as if it was a broken unit it has to rally naturally and can be rode down. Those poor half strength unbreakable Sons of Sigmar rode down because I hit a wrong button.

    You can cheese the system a bit and retreat expensive undead units off the battlefield if it become apparent you would lose. Just get them out before the army losses crumble starts and you could save that powerful Construct the tomb kings player wont be able to replace for 60 turns.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 9,581Registered Users

    Eh. Retreating from melee is always going to be messy. At some point folk need to turn their back, and when they do... Stabby stab!

    Especially since few soldiers are trained to retreat, especially in Warhammer. Possibly the Elves and Empire, but even those are doubtful. Retreating isn't really a Warhammer thing.

    actually, i think in the Thorgrim novella (screw GWs for that... Eight Peaks omnibus... Headtaker and Skarsnik are full novels... then we have one more queek short story and one Gorfang Rotgut short story... and the main Dwarf thing is a novella... and yes, i know Headtaker has a substantial Kazador part, but still... i was looking forward to a book with the High King and Ironhammer in center stage. Well, KF has a similiar issue) the Angrund Dwarfs do a fighting retreat in good order. They are Dwarfs for Grungni's sake... Shieldwall and slowly stepping back :tongue:
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?
  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Posts: 4,387Registered Users
    I wish fliers didn't get stuck so easily.

    Last night I had a eagle and one remaining cold one chariot hugging each other for half a lengthy seige ...

    Utterly pointless.

    They are making an FPS. Who knew a company could have a mid-life crisis ...

  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,414Registered Users
    Total war is almost to generous when it comes to this.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • davor999davor999 Posts: 91Registered Users
    You can always try to sacrifice some spearmen to try to hold the line while others retreat.
    Helps if you stay near the edge of the map
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Posts: 1,466Registered Users
    CA are not in the habit of adding features that make it easier to preserve units, they've been going mainly in the opposite direction and stripping out things that do it like loose formation etc.

    I for one don't like that when lines meet, they remain static and that shouldn't be the case. It should have been a mechanical improvement CA got round to in recent years, but they've completely changed their design philosophy. It should be possible for some units to 'push' against the enemy to move them gradually backwards or 'give ground' so a unit slowly keeps moving backwards, with a 'hold ground' neutral uption.

    Toggles are great, but CA removed them on the excuse that it would 'reduce micro', apparently not understanding that toggles reduce micro as they allow a player to anticipate rather than react all the time.
  • Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Posts: 376Registered Users

    CA are not in the habit of adding features that make it easier to preserve units, they've been going mainly in the opposite direction and stripping out things that do it like loose formation etc.

    I for one don't like that when lines meet, they remain static and that shouldn't be the case. It should have been a mechanical improvement CA got round to in recent years, but they've completely changed their design philosophy. It should be possible for some units to 'push' against the enemy to move them gradually backwards or 'give ground' so a unit slowly keeps moving backwards, with a 'hold ground' neutral uption.

    Toggles are great, but CA removed them on the excuse that it would 'reduce micro', apparently not understanding that toggles reduce micro as they allow a player to anticipate rather than react all the time.

    I really hate how streamlined they made the game just because of the inclusion of magic. There's no reason not to have proper unit formations for infantry while also having magic and hero/lord abilities. It's not like unit formations are particularly micro-intensive; usually you would pick what formation you want your units to be in at the beginning of the game and leave them in that formation for a good chunk of the battle. I wish CA would add back in loose formations at a minimum. Just because this is fantasy and based on a tabletop game where formations largely weren't a thing doesn't mean they should be stripped out entirely (with the exception of Bretonnian Wedge Formation, since they had that as an actual rule).

    It also bothers me that there are no preset formations for the army or the ability to save a preferred formation for an army. Why would anyone ever use the basic line formation button?
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Posts: 1,466Registered Users
    The basic line formation is good...if your best option is to engage all at once with every unit available, which is how CA themsevles play the game every time we get to watch them. This is bad.

    Army pattern formations exist for a reason; the outcome of battles were being staked on them having a purpose but now this purpose is becoming less and less relevant in Total War and it makes my bum hurt. CA should change it because I am bum-hurt; every argument I've made hasn't worked, so that's all I have left.
  • GloatingSwineGloatingSwine Posts: 30Registered Users
    edited June 1
    The thing about retreating is that it's the guys at the front of the bunch that first get the idea that retreating is the thing to do.

    That means they've got people in front of them trying to kill them and people behind them who aren't in on the retreat plan just yet and so are in the way.

    So there's really no orderly way to do it.
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Posts: 1,466Registered Users

    The thing about retreating is that it's the guys at the front of the bunch that first get the idea that retreating is the thing to do.

    That means they've got people in front of them trying to kill them and people behind them who aren't in on the retreat plan just yet and so are in the way.

    So there's really no orderly way to do it.

    The scenario being described there is a rout; the guys at the front have lost the courage and will to fight, so they are running into the guys behind who are advancing forwards. Tactical retreats are a thing though; the unit is ordered to retreat and must start giving ground before breaking into a full run in the other direction. This was often used to put an enemy out of position if they continued advancing, as well as preserve a unit rather than continue fighting an engagement they can't win.

    It can be done in an ordered way, even if not every attempt is successful. The problem is CA favour one very narrow set of tactics over alternatives.
  • kelembribor21kelembribor21 Posts: 115Registered Users
    edited June 1
    Honourable retreat? Yes, Yes!
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    edited June 2
    Your units are more likely to retreat with few casualties simply by routing. How that always works for the AI is beyond me.
    Post edited by Combat_Wombat on
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