Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

How to make Grimgor awsome!

2»

Comments

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,222Registered Users
    edited June 5

    Uagrim said:

    The problem with making footlords anchored to the ground and unpushable is that it makes no sense when a mammoth or a sphinx or a shaggoth or a giant or a leviathan crab or something else of that size just stumbles into said footlord and then crashes to a halt, and the footlord barely flinches.

    Yes, Grimgor is big. For an orc. He's not big for an ogre, in fact he's quite lovingly dimminutive by their standards. And giants pick up Grimgor-sized parcels like they're a snack, which, frankly, they generally are.

    Grimgor is almost certainly outmassed and outweighed by a knight in full plate riding on a barded warhorse. Put speed on said horse and if the tackle lands then Grimgor will go to ground like a sack of potatoes, because he's just not big enough to simply shrug off that impact the same way the super-massives would. And that's how it should be.

    Footlords suck in MP, but some lords have to suck when there's so many in the mix. Some adjustment is in order and sure, Grimgor isn't quite as scary as he maybe should be, but then that's true for almost everybody, since there are so many scary entities around that it affects the baseline quite a lot. In SP, the problem is much less as supported footlords can deal out plenty of damage in grindy infantry fights.

    Acctualy they should, charging a monster into an Anti Large lord like for example Ungrim should be dangerous and not a zero risk move like it is at the moment.

    The Problem is melee footlords are limited in what they can do, namely fight what chooses to fight them. A mage can effect a wide area with spells not even getting into mounted characters which can choose engagement and utterly ruin a footlord with a bit of cycle charging. In a slug fest footlords take ages to get their value back and as soon as a monster goes in you can forget about them.

    It should not effect all character but melee foot characters should be hard to play bounce ball with.
    This goes doubly so for characters which can't take mounts to solve that problem.
    You sound like you're commenting from an MP perspective. And yes, from an MP perspective, footlords suck and are trivially countered with super-large single entities. I don't think there's any fix for that without making footlords broken. They just don't have the mobility that mounted lords do and they do not have the area of impact that spellcasters do. Making them harder to ragdoll is reasonable, since you can argue that some of these epic characters have extreme skill and speed and might therefore dodge impacts somewhat, but anti large does not mean immune to physics.

    Regarding Ungrim, yes, it should be dangerous to charge him, but if he gets shoulder barged by a sphinx then he absolutely should be sent flying. If a giant plays a game of golf then he's even flying into next week. If something like a regular horseman nudges him then he shouldn't get ragdolled but even a dwarf can't just shake it off if well over half a ton of flesh and metal makes a full speed running tackle. Anti Large does not mean immune to physics.

    A lithe elf princess on her horse should get send flying by such a charge too, but isn't. It's just arbitrary that anything on four feet is knockback immune but anything on two feet, no matter how sturdy or heavy, is send flying if nudged by a even a small horse (yes that includes monster-sized Gorebulls).
  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Posts: 828Registered Users

    Uagrim said:

    The problem with making footlords anchored to the ground and unpushable is that it makes no sense when a mammoth or a sphinx or a shaggoth or a giant or a leviathan crab or something else of that size just stumbles into said footlord and then crashes to a halt, and the footlord barely flinches.

    Yes, Grimgor is big. For an orc. He's not big for an ogre, in fact he's quite lovingly dimminutive by their standards. And giants pick up Grimgor-sized parcels like they're a snack, which, frankly, they generally are.

    Grimgor is almost certainly outmassed and outweighed by a knight in full plate riding on a barded warhorse. Put speed on said horse and if the tackle lands then Grimgor will go to ground like a sack of potatoes, because he's just not big enough to simply shrug off that impact the same way the super-massives would. And that's how it should be.

    Footlords suck in MP, but some lords have to suck when there's so many in the mix. Some adjustment is in order and sure, Grimgor isn't quite as scary as he maybe should be, but then that's true for almost everybody, since there are so many scary entities around that it affects the baseline quite a lot. In SP, the problem is much less as supported footlords can deal out plenty of damage in grindy infantry fights.

    Acctualy they should, charging a monster into an Anti Large lord like for example Ungrim should be dangerous and not a zero risk move like it is at the moment.

    The Problem is melee footlords are limited in what they can do, namely fight what chooses to fight them. A mage can effect a wide area with spells not even getting into mounted characters which can choose engagement and utterly ruin a footlord with a bit of cycle charging. In a slug fest footlords take ages to get their value back and as soon as a monster goes in you can forget about them.

    It should not effect all character but melee foot characters should be hard to play bounce ball with.
    This goes doubly so for characters which can't take mounts to solve that problem.
    You sound like you're commenting from an MP perspective. And yes, from an MP perspective, footlords suck and are trivially countered with super-large single entities. I don't think there's any fix for that without making footlords broken. They just don't have the mobility that mounted lords do and they do not have the area of impact that spellcasters do. Making them harder to ragdoll is reasonable, since you can argue that some of these epic characters have extreme skill and speed and might therefore dodge impacts somewhat, but anti large does not mean immune to physics.

    Regarding Ungrim, yes, it should be dangerous to charge him, but if he gets shoulder barged by a sphinx then he absolutely should be sent flying. If a giant plays a game of golf then he's even flying into next week. If something like a regular horseman nudges him then he shouldn't get ragdolled but even a dwarf can't just shake it off if well over half a ton of flesh and metal makes a full speed running tackle. Anti Large does not mean immune to physics.

    A lithe elf princess on her horse should get send flying by such a charge too, but isn't. It's just arbitrary that anything on four feet is knockback immune but anything on two feet, no matter how sturdy or heavy, is send flying if nudged by a even a small horse (yes that includes monster-sized Gorebulls).
    I agree. Little elves on ponies and similar large entities should not be immune to getting knocked about. By all means, give them a chance to get a friendly nudge from super-large entities. But that's a different discussion, isn't it?

    My point isn't that footlords have to suck and can't get rebalanced, it is that things get too crazy if a mammoth or a sphinx at speed is bouncing off something roughly the size of a human. There's suspension of disbelief and then there's bizarro world. Might as well put little wings on steamtanks and call them Skaven Jetplanes.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,222Registered Users
    Dogs, which are much smaller and lighter than infantry, are knockback immune too no matter what runs into them, just because they stand on four feet.

    I think that alone is reason enough to rework knockback immunity for infantry. Braced and BvL infantry charged from the front should not get ragdolled around at the very least.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,884Registered Users
    There is no way Ungrim would get bowled around 50 feet in the lore when changed by a mammoth. He would roll and hamstring the beast while laughing madly.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,884Registered Users
    Was Legolas bowled around by mumakils?

    Or Aragorn? What about Gimli?

    Or maybe Boromir?

    That would look stupid. And if someone gets trampled or tossed 50 feet then they should die or take massive damage.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • uriakuriak Posts: 3,421Registered Users
    Are dogs knockback immune ? I should check.

    Anyway, the issue is maybe of value rather than mechanics. In the TT you wouldn't cycle charge. So being mobile was nice but not THAT nice. So putting a premium on the movile version of lords is maybe enough.

    Alternatively, make charge, especially for large entities, much more vigor consuming. Or give foot lords a good dmg reduction on impact damage alltogether. SO you may stall them but not much more.
  • doclumbagodoclumbago Posts: 1,451Registered Users
    don´t know about footlords generally, for Grimgor:

    -Increase Mass
    -Explosion AoEability (like Skaven/Saurus Lords). Call it Stomp!
    -Grimgor should get additional bonuses when in prolonged combat
    -perfect Vigor

  • dodge33cymrudodge33cymru Posts: 1,812Registered Users
    As per @Lord_Distamorfin suggestion, I really hope they manage the option to embed lords within a unit in WH3. Anyone on foot or horse should be able to remove their single entity status by having a unit around them and this fixes the problem IMO.
  • Brianfowler713Brianfowler713 Posts: 64Registered Users
    edited June 6
    Sorry for the double post everyone, the first post disappeared after editing it (I swear it was just gone) so I made a hopefully more concise version, went to bed, and when I woke up both posts were here.

    I think my second version made my point better, so I'm just going with that one.

    Again, sorry.
    Post edited by Brianfowler713 on
    I suppose I should just be grateful for the views...
  • Brianfowler713Brianfowler713 Posts: 64Registered Users

    As per @Lord_Distamorfin suggestion, I really hope they manage the option to embed lords within a unit in WH3. Anyone on foot or horse should be able to remove their single entity status by having a unit around them and this fixes the problem IMO.

    I've been wondering how they could have done inserting characters into units and the only way I can imagine it was if characters weren't unit cards at all, but banner icons.

    You know how if your general has a Razor Standard or Banner of Eternal Flame equipped, how it would appear as a round icon you could drag and drop on the unit you wanted? Well in my hypothetical scenario, that's how characters work. Drag Karl Franz onto a spearmen unit and when the battle map loads he'll be standing in the front row of the spearmen. Drop Archaon onto Chaos Knights and he'll lead them atop Dhorgar (but put him in Chosen and he'll slog it on foot).

    Monster mounts actually would have their own unit cards, and have to be recruited from the appropriate building (you get Deathclaw from a Menagerie for example). Once you have the monster in your army you equip the characters like you would with a unit, and then you got Karl on Deathclaw.

    The biggest problem with this is Kholek. Either we make an exception for him and give him his own unit card, or insist he be embedded in Dragon Ogres (which would seem weird, except he is still a general, and generals expect to lead).
    I suppose I should just be grateful for the views...
  • Brianfowler713Brianfowler713 Posts: 64Registered Users
    The other problem is we're two games into a trilogy, and it's a little late to change things.
    I suppose I should just be grateful for the views...
Sign In or Register to comment.