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Remove skirmish mode from missile cav in MP

Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,602Registered Users
As title suggests, i hope skirmish mode gets removed from skirmish cav in MP, units with highest speed in the game should not have an auto escape button.

Skirmish mode is not an issue on foot units but its abusive and annoying on 95 speed cav.

Make the player control those units not AI do it for him.

This should be for Multiplayer only.

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Comments

  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,330Registered Users
    Agreed, it would actually make skirmish cav more about risk vs reward rather than the practically guaranteed reward some of it often is.
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  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 904Registered Users
    i mean, skirmish mode is not really any more effective than a regular player microing it. Its just skill gating a set of units. Skirmish cav wouldn't be less effective in the right hands, just the majority of not micro intense players. There's not really a good reason to do this: you're not really nerfing the unit at a high level, instead you are just making it pointlessly more difficult for most players to use.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,993Registered Users
    it's not pointlessly though, micro is definitely one of the elements in the skillset of a "good TW player".
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,155Registered Users
    Skirmish mode isn’t really that great though. It’s still kind of buggy and it’s easy to corner skirmishing units and kill them. Also they seem to somehow get caught by slower units. They can also just get zoned out by cheap infantry.

    Skirmish mode is no substitute for good micro, if you really want to get good value from skirmish units you need to take them out of skirmish mode at least part of the time.
  • WunderKatzeWunderKatze Posts: 216Registered Users
    edited June 6
    Here's where the overtuning begins. Where we have to add 50 special rules and conditions to our multiplayer experience to appease a small percentage of the community. Changes that overwise have no logical basis within the game and do nothing but disrupt new multiplayer players and let some high level players eke out victories where they should have losses.

    Removing skirmish mode from missile cavarly also effects units disproportionately. 360 fire and long range units are better off than the others.

    This is a really dumb idea.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,279Registered Users
    edited June 6

    Here's where the overtuning begins. Where we have to add 50 special rules and conditions to our multiplayer experience to appease a small percentage of the community. Changes that overwise have no logical basis within the game and do nothing but disrupt new multiplayer players and let some high level players eke out victories where they should have losses.

    Removing skirmish mode from missile cavarly also effects units disproportionately. 360 fire and long range units are better off than the others.

    This is a really dumb idea.

    I agree to some extent, but it is also a balancing act.

    It can be very disheartening as a new player to come up against armies full of missile cav on skirmish mode/SEs/Full Cav builds that they can't catch and don't know how to appropriately respond too. But I think Skirmish mode should stay as this game is unfriendly enough for beginners as is, and it is buggy enough that a skilled player can take advantage of its overuse.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 904Registered Users
    edited June 6
    So you want to deliberately make a part of the game less accessible because skill?

    It doesn't make sense. Theres no deliberate reason to make units more clunky and difficult to use for the sake of skill expression. Its all ready less efficient than microing the unit anyways.

    If skirmish units are overperforming, nerf them. But they arn't. There's nothing wrong with an average skill player having some automation to help them. Especially seeing as:

    1. Its less effective than microing them yourself anyways
    2. They are vulnerable to the same counters either way

    Making a game intentionally more cumbersome doesn't make it better. It makes it worse.
  • WunderKatzeWunderKatze Posts: 216Registered Users
    edited June 6
    OrkLads said:

    Here's where the overtuning begins. Where we have to add 50 special rules and conditions to our multiplayer experience to appease a small percentage of the community. Changes that overwise have no logical basis within the game and do nothing but disrupt new multiplayer players and let some high level players eke out victories where they should have losses.

    Removing skirmish mode from missile cavarly also effects units disproportionately. 360 fire and long range units are better off than the others.

    This is a really dumb idea.

    I agree to some extent, but it is also a balancing act.

    It can be very disheartening as a new player to come up against armies full of missile cav on skirmish mode/SEs/Full Cav builds that they can't catch and don't know how to appropriately respond too. I think Skirmish mode should stay as this game is unfriendly enough for beginners as is, and it is buggy enough that a skilled player can take advantage of its overuse.
    That's what quick battle restrictions are for.

    Also you are wrong. The army full of skirmish cav is going to win, because the player who plays all skirmish cav is going to be ready to micro them. The noob is going to think it's cheesy still because any army that isn't a melee spam with token range is cheese and he also can't tell the difference between micro and skirmish mode.

    This change doesn't solve anything. It's just the ridiculous brand of overtuning that should be left to tournaments.

    Also I would like to issue a challenge to all of the top 1000 players here. Let's battle, you guys play skirmish cav and turn off skirmish mode and I'll play a regular army and lose and prove my point. That's what this thread is about right? "So you aren't good enough to play without skirmish mode?"
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,602Registered Users
    Mistakes should be punished, skirmish mode on missile cav removes that.

    Do not i only want it removed on missile cav.


    Skirmish units are not overperforming, theres a difference between unit being good and not being able to catch a unit that the opponent doesn't control.

    Which is the main problem with skirmish mode on missile cav, you don't control the unit the AI does for you.

    Making missile cav be needed to control by the player to keep out of danger is a positive it got added to salamander hunting pack this DLC and its quite rewarding.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,602Registered Users

    Here's where the overtuning begins. Where we have to add 50 special rules and conditions to our multiplayer experience to appease a small percentage of the community. Changes that overwise have no logical basis within the game and do nothing but disrupt new multiplayer players and let some high level players eke out victories where they should have losses.

    Removing skirmish mode from missile cavarly also effects units disproportionately. 360 fire and long range units are better off than the others.

    This is a really dumb idea.

    Actually opposite, 360 Fire units are better with skirmish mode on, because AI plays the unit 100% for you currently.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,602Registered Users

    Skirmish mode isn’t really that great though. It’s still kind of buggy and it’s easy to corner skirmishing units and kill them. Also they seem to somehow get caught by slower units. They can also just get zoned out by cheap infantry.

    Skirmish mode is no substitute for good micro, if you really want to get good value from skirmish units you need to take them out of skirmish mode at least part of the time.

    Thats not totally accurate, if you forget the missile cav but its on skrmismish mode it will still avoid danger for most part, mistakes like that should be punished not rewarded.
  • ystyst Posts: 5,934Registered Users
    I dont think that shows enough skill.

    Autofire should be remove to reflect that. I mean no skirmish is childs play, every missile fire requiring a click, ya thats more like it.
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,602Registered Users
    edited June 6
    yst said:

    I dont think that shows enough skill.

    Autofire should be remove to reflect that. I mean no skirmish is childs play, every missile fire requiring a click, ya thats more like it.

    I know your trying to derail the thread again but ill try to respond nevertheless.

    Autofire is the only way currently in the game to fire while moving, it is NOT possible to fire on the move without auto fire active.

    Stick to the thread or don't comment please.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,600Registered Users
    I am on the fence on this one....

    It does help newer players to use this unit type at all the way they are supposedly designed to be used originally, like a smaller skirmish contingent of your army.

    On the other hand it helps mediocre players over perform with full skirmish spam armies in qb.

    One solution is to remove skirmish mode, another would be to get better caps in qb that prevents such builds.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,602Registered Users

    I am on the fence on this one....

    It does help newer players to use this unit type at all the way they are supposedly designed to be used originally, like a smaller skirmish contingent of your army.

    On the other hand it helps mediocre players over perform with full skirmish spam armies in qb.

    One solution is to remove skirmish mode, another would be to get better caps in qb that prevents such builds.

    There already is a cap of max 5, how much more cap is there room for, max 0?

    New players can just learn to use the unit, having skirmish mode on missile cav does not help them learn to use the unit better.
  • ystyst Posts: 5,934Registered Users
    edited June 6

    Autofire is the only way currently in the game to fire while moving, it is NOT possible to fire on the move without auto fire active.

    Stick to the thread or don't comment please.

    Not at all, u can easily still move and shoot, all it does is a slight delay which pretty much is EXACTLY what u want to show off your skills, spam click move, shoot, move, I mean u want to play micro game that would be the goal. Units like glade guards barely have any delay, afterall its just basic stuffs which u already know compared to others such as empire crossbows. Skirmish just childs play.

    Not hard really, I mean if u wanna show off, simply turn off skirmish mode live on your twitch lol, I mean surely such trivial mode by your opponent is hardly a challenge
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,600Registered Users
    5?

    Three is also a problem that it would affect short range fast units like pistoliers more than longer ranged ones like sw.

    I am not totally against it, just unsure. There is plus and minus.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,602Registered Users
    yst said:

    Autofire is the only way currently in the game to fire while moving, it is NOT possible to fire on the move without auto fire active.

    Stick to the thread or don't comment please.

    Not at all, u can easily still move and shoot, all it does is a slight delay which pretty much is EXACTLY what u want to show off your skills, spam click move, shoot, move, I mean u want to play micro game that would be the goal. Units like glade guards barely have any delay, afterall its just basic stuffs which u already know compared to others such as empire crossbows. Skirmish just childs play.

    Not hard really, I mean if u wanna show off, simply turn off skirmish mode live on your twitch lol, I mean surely such trivial mode by your opponent is hardly a challenge
    no you can't it is impossible to fire on the move without fire at will.

    Fire on the move means without stoping, if you click a ranged attack while moving the unit will stop to shoot, i don't know why i need to explain this to you, this is not what the topic is about, do you mind sticking to the OP thanks.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,602Registered Users

    5?

    Three is also a problem that it would affect short range fast units like pistoliers more than longer ranged ones like sw.

    I am not totally against it, just unsure. There is plus and minus.

    Yeah skirmish cav is capped at 5 in quick battles, this includes missile chariots.

    It is true that it might require some buffs to short ranged units, but those can get +10 range or even 25g cost reduction in some cases.

  • ystyst Posts: 5,934Registered Users
    Yea i dont mind, simple means CA will have to move skink jav into inf category.

    Afterall the exact official response was they r put into missile BECAUSE of skirmish. I mean sure why not if skink jav r finally moved to where they belong, rather than stupidly being wrongly categorised.

    I mean u can even put the entire missile category onto inf, dont mind having 19x 360s on the field without skirmish.
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,600Registered Users

    5?

    Three is also a problem that it would affect short range fast units like pistoliers more than longer ranged ones like sw.

    I am not totally against it, just unsure. There is plus and minus.

    Yeah skirmish cav is capped at 5 in quick battles, this includes missile chariots.

    It is true that it might require some buffs to short ranged units, but those can get +10 range or even 25g cost reduction in some cases.

    But three are many more units you can spam right, not just cav. If the suggestion was for cav only I missed that, sorry. I think the worst spam armies don't use much skirm cav...

    Anyways, there's definitely something to gain from it for qb.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,602Registered Users

    5?

    Three is also a problem that it would affect short range fast units like pistoliers more than longer ranged ones like sw.

    I am not totally against it, just unsure. There is plus and minus.

    Yeah skirmish cav is capped at 5 in quick battles, this includes missile chariots.

    It is true that it might require some buffs to short ranged units, but those can get +10 range or even 25g cost reduction in some cases.

    But three are many more units you can spam right, not just cav. If the suggestion was for cav only I missed that, sorry. I think the worst spam armies don't use much skirm cav...

    Anyways, there's definitely something to gain from it for qb.
    Yep only for missile cav its in the heading.
  • WunderKatzeWunderKatze Posts: 216Registered Users

    Here's where the overtuning begins. Where we have to add 50 special rules and conditions to our multiplayer experience to appease a small percentage of the community. Changes that overwise have no logical basis within the game and do nothing but disrupt new multiplayer players and let some high level players eke out victories where they should have losses.

    Removing skirmish mode from missile cavarly also effects units disproportionately. 360 fire and long range units are better off than the others.

    This is a really dumb idea.

    Actually opposite, 360 Fire units are better with skirmish mode on, because AI plays the unit 100% for you currently.
    That doesn't make non 360 fire units better without skirmish mode so you are wrong.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,602Registered Users
    edited June 6

    Here's where the overtuning begins. Where we have to add 50 special rules and conditions to our multiplayer experience to appease a small percentage of the community. Changes that overwise have no logical basis within the game and do nothing but disrupt new multiplayer players and let some high level players eke out victories where they should have losses.

    Removing skirmish mode from missile cavarly also effects units disproportionately. 360 fire and long range units are better off than the others.

    This is a really dumb idea.

    Actually opposite, 360 Fire units are better with skirmish mode on, because AI plays the unit 100% for you currently.
    That doesn't make non 360 fire units better without skirmish mode so you are wrong.
    Yes it does compared to non 360 units.

    one can do damage while running away due to skirmish mode the other can't, for me its clear which one is better, if for you doing no damage is the better performing unit than ok but thats very strange.

    I dunno if i missunderstood your original point perhaps.

    What i'm saying is that units with 360* fire are better with skirmish mode on than those without it, because the unit can shoot while the AI controls their movements also, this is no the case with fire to the front units who only run away.
  • WunderKatzeWunderKatze Posts: 216Registered Users

    Here's where the overtuning begins. Where we have to add 50 special rules and conditions to our multiplayer experience to appease a small percentage of the community. Changes that overwise have no logical basis within the game and do nothing but disrupt new multiplayer players and let some high level players eke out victories where they should have losses.

    Removing skirmish mode from missile cavarly also effects units disproportionately. 360 fire and long range units are better off than the others.

    This is a really dumb idea.

    Actually opposite, 360 Fire units are better with skirmish mode on, because AI plays the unit 100% for you currently.
    That doesn't make non 360 fire units better without skirmish mode so you are wrong.
    Yes it does compared to non 360 units.

    onc can do damage while running away due to skirmish mode the other can't, for me its clear which one is better, if for you doing no damage is the better performing unit than ok but thats very strange.
    Might want to read my original comment and work it out.

    It doesn't matter which unit was better with skirmish mode on. Obviously having a larger firing arc is always better.

    A 360 firing unit only has to move away from the enemy. A regular ranged unit has to be microed to turn around which means if wants to do any damage he has to estimate when he will put enough distance between him and his for before he can squeeze out shots.

    In short skirmish mode is more valuable on regular units because it preforms two actions. Whereas with 360 firing one is sufficient.

    Why would you even challenge that?
  • ystyst Posts: 5,934Registered Users
    Ya well auto fire already meant ai is controlling ur missile like u know, auto firing. Removing skirmish wont show off skills at all, kids level stuff. As if the current pathing is already as buggy as it is.

    Manual fire, now thats more like it. Really wouldnt want ppl to have it easy for ai to autoplay for them in continuous firing now wont we? thats just too easy for them, wheres the micro?
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,602Registered Users
    yst said:

    Ya well auto fire already meant ai is controlling ur missile like u know, auto firing. Removing skirmish wont show off skills at all, kids level stuff. As if the current pathing is already as buggy as it is.

    Manual fire, now thats more like it. Really wouldnt want ppl to have it easy for ai to autoplay for them in continuous firing now wont we? thats just too easy for them, wheres the micro?

    The topic is not about removing skirmish mode, its about removing skirmish mode from missile cav.
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Posts: 469Registered Users
    I disagree with the change. I want this game opened up with a larger multiplayer community not the opposite.
    This would mean at low skill levels you would hardly see these units anymore resulting in more lower skilled players having no idea how to deal with the unit as well. (which could potentially affect the numbers CA uses in balancing units allowing said unit to potentially be buffed because average players can't get them to pay for their cost)
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 641Registered Users

    I disagree with the change. I want this game opened up with a larger multiplayer community not the opposite.
    This would mean at low skill levels you would hardly see these units anymore resulting in more lower skilled players having no idea how to deal with the unit as well. (which could potentially affect the numbers CA uses in balancing units allowing said unit to potentially be buffed because average players can't get them to pay for their cost)

    This.

    New players would not bother using this unit since it would very difficult for them.

    Also, as someone else pointed out. Missile cav with long range would suddenly be better relative to short range missile cav. If something has 70 range, increasing range to 80 is not going to make it that much better for new/less skilled players.

    In addition, missile cav with lower speed gets hit harder.

    So we would need to rebalance on a unit by unit basis.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 1,744Registered Users
    i agree micro is huge part of the skill in an RTS game.
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