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Remove skirmish mode from missile cav in MP

13

Comments

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,119Registered Users
    yst said:

    Meh all talks

    If those guys really wanna play micro -
    REMOVE GROUPING
    REMOVE ALL SHORTCUTS
    REMOVE SKIRMISH
    REMOVE AUTOSHOOT


    Absolute 0 uses from keyboard. Want micro? go enjoy the click fest

    go tell this on Starcraft forums, I'm sure they would love to hear your hyperbolic arguments.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 709Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    yst said:

    Meh all talks

    If those guys really wanna play micro -
    REMOVE GROUPING
    REMOVE ALL SHORTCUTS
    REMOVE SKIRMISH
    REMOVE AUTOSHOOT


    Absolute 0 uses from keyboard. Want micro? go enjoy the click fest

    go tell this on Starcraft forums, I'm sure they would love to hear your hyperbolic arguments.
    I'm sure Starcraft players were really upset when the selection cap of 12 units was removed. Because intentionally encumbering players is really good for "Skill Expression" and "weeding out the good players from the bad ones."

    Its funny that you are using Starcraft as an example, and yet fail to realize the absolutely massive amount the micro tax was reduced between the first and second games.
  • another505another505 Posts: 764Registered Users
    edited June 6
    Green0 said:


    Also, who are you to determine what players should be able to play what armies? That is not for the balance section to decide.

    I'll only answer this part, since the rest of your post is basically you trying to frame things in such a way to call me inconsistent when I've never been that in this post. You might also want to check games like Starcraft 2, you do the same dumb action over and over there too BUT it's part of many MP games really.

    Anyway, for this last remark of yours, what I'm saying is that if you don't have the SKILL to pull it off, you shouldn't bother with a certain unit type. I'm not saying: you are a x/y/z type of person, I forbid you to use that unit. There is really no discrimination. Wanna use missile cav efficiently? Get good enough to do that.

    Also, fyi I find missile cav even in its current state not abusive at all, this change would be aimed more toward screenin out bad missile cav users from good ones.

    If going extreme with greenO argument

    Moving different units with different speed shouldnt be unify
    Fire at will needs to be turned off, skirmish mode of inf needs to he removed
    Infantry shouldnt fight back unless they are explicitly told so
    There should be no target spell but only aoe so gl on fireball
    Missile units you need to tell them where to shoot since moving enemy can dodge

    Can any of you tell me exactly: how is nerfing missile cav and their skirmish mode gonna impact the game in a negative way? Will you pick these units less? Or is it that you can't accept that you might be defeated by a player who micros his missile cav better than you because "muh tactics" should prevail on everything?

    In truth, this game has tactics, RT strategy AND RT "fast" clicking AND good army building to it. ALL of these are good qualities that you need to have if you wanna succeed over your opponent.
    I answered your argument. Which was heavily flawed. Not the OP’s
    Dont switch the goal post

    If i reply to the op
    I already said the multiplayer and game itself is already HEAVILY complicated and hard so it isnt needed

    And i can switch back to ask if removing it has any positive impact to the gameplay.

    And consider you know i play bret heavily
    so i dont really use skirmishers
    Regardless, You stop using something like
    “ you can't accept that you might be defeated by a player who micros his missile cav better than you because "muh tactics" should prevail on everything?“
    Post edited by Canuovea on
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,119Registered Users
    edited June 6
    ok since you accuse me of "moving the goal post", I'll try to make my case as concise and small as possible:

    1) skirmish mode makes it so that you don't need to control, or even think about part of your army during certain parts of the battle
    2) having the AI play for you is dumb, one thing is having control groups and hotkeys to help, another is literally the AI taking control over (big emphasis on this aspect since it is what differentiates it from microing 300g spearmen, or not having hotkeys/control groups that other people have mentioned).
    3) for good players, lack of skirmish mode would make no difference and we should strive to balance for good players (or at least decent ones)
    4) this change would create a further layer of complexity and help screen out average players from good ones. Furthermore you hear on these forums how dodging shots and spells with SEMs is cool and when someone points out you can't dodge 100% of that they are shunned upon because it's implied they have bad micro. But a mechanic that promotes, hell, even encourages bad micro is now acceptable for the majority? Double standards.
    5) wanna play with a lot of units? You get the penalty of additional micro tax. Some factions can be more micro intensive than others (GS, WE...). I see nothing wrong with this. Nobody forces you to play those factions and if you do, you will still be able to succeed with them if you are a truly good players (i.e. have skills other than "I know how Black Ark Corsairs trade into Dryads", which I don't think should be the only skill in this game).
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 12,593Registered Users, Moderators
    Alright. So I was called in here and I decided to take a look. For the most part things have been alright, but gotten to be on the verge of insulting.

    Consider this a warning that personal sniping will not be tolerated.
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -The "Spam" flag is not a "disagree" flag. Have a care.
    -...No, no the "Abuse" flag isn't a "disagree" flag either!
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • MrRipper707MrRipper707 Posts: 137Registered Users
    I was thinking about this earlier today. Skirmish does get in the way sometimes. But if I send chaos dogs to attack your skirmish cav using one click should you have to micro that unit for the rest of the game? I feel like removing skirmish would disproporionately swing things in favor of that attacker considering a simple charge order can last so much longer than constant movement updates.
  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 423Registered Users
    I never use skirmish mode since i don’t trust the AI. Nevertheless, i don’t think skirmish mode is a problem and thus i see no reason to change/remove it.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,677Registered Users
    edited June 6
    eumaies said:

    .

    eumaies said:

    Not this again.

    Making the game harder to play to satisfy a few players who play this game a ton is nonsense. The point shoudl be to maximize strategy, not force you to babysit units doing predictable things.


    As has been discussed ad infinitum, using skirmishing mode is not always a good idea. It's a delegation of authority that can get you into trouble.

    In the past i suggested to remove it on all units not ONLY skirmish cav.

    If its not a good idea some of the time to use skirmish mode than even less reason to keep it.

    Its not really strategy though when you let AI play for you.
    The strategy is to tell your troops what you want them to do. The competitive clicking to see who is better at quickly telling their troops what to do is some other terrible game that has nothing to do with strategy. 0%. If I want my skirmish cav to run there is no strategy involved in making it harder for me to do that.
    In that case can we have

    Auto brace button
    Skirmish mode for melee if opponent is stronger
    Auto fire vs best target
    Auto cast spells onoptimum target
    Auto engage
    Auto disangage loosing fights

    Because rite now all above example are not strategy they are just clicking.


    I want to tell my troops to only engage fights they can win and avoid loosing fights, why do i have to click rite now to do that, this is not strategy....

    Sounds like this game needs to be made into turn based to please people.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,677Registered Users
    I'm surprised that none of the people defending skirmish mode on missile cav have started a topic about salamander hunting pack getting skirmish mode.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 709Registered Users
    edited June 6

    eumaies said:

    .

    eumaies said:

    Not this again.

    Making the game harder to play to satisfy a few players who play this game a ton is nonsense. The point shoudl be to maximize strategy, not force you to babysit units doing predictable things.


    As has been discussed ad infinitum, using skirmishing mode is not always a good idea. It's a delegation of authority that can get you into trouble.

    In the past i suggested to remove it on all units not ONLY skirmish cav.

    If its not a good idea some of the time to use skirmish mode than even less reason to keep it.

    Its not really strategy though when you let AI play for you.
    The strategy is to tell your troops what you want them to do. The competitive clicking to see who is better at quickly telling their troops what to do is some other terrible game that has nothing to do with strategy. 0%. If I want my skirmish cav to run there is no strategy involved in making it harder for me to do that.
    In that case can we have

    Auto brace button
    Skirmish mode for melee if opponent is stronger
    Auto fire vs best target
    Auto cast spells onoptimum target
    Auto engage
    Auto disangage loosing fights

    Because rite now all above example are not strategy they are just clicking.


    I want to tell my troops to only engage fights they can win and avoid loosing fights, why do i have to click rite now to do that, this is not strategy....

    Sounds like this game needs to be made into turn based to please people.
    This is called hyperbole.

    Remember what YST just did:
    yst said:

    Meh all talks

    If those guys really wanna play micro -
    REMOVE GROUPING
    REMOVE ALL SHORTCUTS
    REMOVE SKIRMISH
    REMOVE AUTOSHOOT


    Absolute 0 uses from keyboard. Want micro? go enjoy the click fest

    Thats what you are doing right now. Stop exaggerating, and understand that there can be a balance struck between automating certain aspects of the game and leaving leaving others to player micro.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,578Registered Users
    edited June 6

    I'm surprised that none of the people defending skirmish mode on missile cav have started a topic about salamander hunting pack getting skirmish mode.

    I'm surprised you would be unable to see how irrelevant that is.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,578Registered Users
    edited June 6

    eumaies said:

    .

    eumaies said:

    Not this again.

    Making the game harder to play to satisfy a few players who play this game a ton is nonsense. The point shoudl be to maximize strategy, not force you to babysit units doing predictable things.


    As has been discussed ad infinitum, using skirmishing mode is not always a good idea. It's a delegation of authority that can get you into trouble.

    In the past i suggested to remove it on all units not ONLY skirmish cav.

    If its not a good idea some of the time to use skirmish mode than even less reason to keep it.

    Its not really strategy though when you let AI play for you.
    The strategy is to tell your troops what you want them to do. The competitive clicking to see who is better at quickly telling their troops what to do is some other terrible game that has nothing to do with strategy. 0%. If I want my skirmish cav to run there is no strategy involved in making it harder for me to do that.
    In that case can we have

    Auto brace button
    Skirmish mode for melee if opponent is stronger
    Auto fire vs best target
    Auto cast spells onoptimum target
    Auto engage
    Auto disangage loosing fights

    Because rite now all above example are not strategy they are just clicking.


    I want to tell my troops to only engage fights they can win and avoid loosing fights, why do i have to click rite now to do that, this is not strategy....

    Sounds like this game needs to be made into turn based to please people.
    Those aren't worth button space on the screen as they're almost all useless.

    Auto brace would almost never be helpful and would mess up your charge bonus more often than help you vs an idiot cav charge. Takes more micro to use than to not use.

    All four related to "best/strong/optimum/losing" target are garbage optimizations that would be useless in a real game since the AI has useful conception of what those terms really mean in practice.

    Auto engage (i.e. chase nearest enemy unit for melee attack) is called rampage and the ability to turn that on would be fine - it's a standing order that simulates a general delegating important decisions to stupid commanders. I wouldn't use it much but it would actually be interesting micro to determine when to use. Just as skirmish button is, actually.

    And of course you can take it the other way if you prefer -- you should manually aim each archer, and units should swing only when you click on them. Go for it, prove you're the best.

    As I said above, all the useful buttons that allow players to focus on strategy rather than no-brainer commands could be optional in battle lobby screen for the tiny minority of players who want to play their peers who also think clicking is the most interesting part of this game.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,677Registered Users
    Cukie251 said:

    eumaies said:

    .

    eumaies said:

    Not this again.

    Making the game harder to play to satisfy a few players who play this game a ton is nonsense. The point shoudl be to maximize strategy, not force you to babysit units doing predictable things.


    As has been discussed ad infinitum, using skirmishing mode is not always a good idea. It's a delegation of authority that can get you into trouble.

    In the past i suggested to remove it on all units not ONLY skirmish cav.

    If its not a good idea some of the time to use skirmish mode than even less reason to keep it.

    Its not really strategy though when you let AI play for you.
    The strategy is to tell your troops what you want them to do. The competitive clicking to see who is better at quickly telling their troops what to do is some other terrible game that has nothing to do with strategy. 0%. If I want my skirmish cav to run there is no strategy involved in making it harder for me to do that.
    In that case can we have

    Auto brace button
    Skirmish mode for melee if opponent is stronger
    Auto fire vs best target
    Auto cast spells onoptimum target
    Auto engage
    Auto disangage loosing fights

    Because rite now all above example are not strategy they are just clicking.


    I want to tell my troops to only engage fights they can win and avoid loosing fights, why do i have to click rite now to do that, this is not strategy....

    Sounds like this game needs to be made into turn based to please people.
    This is called hyperbole.

    Remember what YST just did:
    yst said:

    Meh all talks

    If those guys really wanna play micro -
    REMOVE GROUPING
    REMOVE ALL SHORTCUTS
    REMOVE SKIRMISH
    REMOVE AUTOSHOOT


    Absolute 0 uses from keyboard. Want micro? go enjoy the click fest

    Thats what you are doing right now. Stop exaggerating, and understand that there can be a balance struck between automating certain aspects of the game and leaving leaving others to player micro.
    Not at all, my posts ask to remove skirmish mode on missile cav, not on all units, eumies said that its a bad idea because the game is a strategy game not click game.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,578Registered Users

    Cukie251 said:

    eumaies said:

    .

    eumaies said:

    Not this again.

    Making the game harder to play to satisfy a few players who play this game a ton is nonsense. The point shoudl be to maximize strategy, not force you to babysit units doing predictable things.


    As has been discussed ad infinitum, using skirmishing mode is not always a good idea. It's a delegation of authority that can get you into trouble.

    In the past i suggested to remove it on all units not ONLY skirmish cav.

    If its not a good idea some of the time to use skirmish mode than even less reason to keep it.

    Its not really strategy though when you let AI play for you.
    The strategy is to tell your troops what you want them to do. The competitive clicking to see who is better at quickly telling their troops what to do is some other terrible game that has nothing to do with strategy. 0%. If I want my skirmish cav to run there is no strategy involved in making it harder for me to do that.
    In that case can we have

    Auto brace button
    Skirmish mode for melee if opponent is stronger
    Auto fire vs best target
    Auto cast spells onoptimum target
    Auto engage
    Auto disangage loosing fights

    Because rite now all above example are not strategy they are just clicking.


    I want to tell my troops to only engage fights they can win and avoid loosing fights, why do i have to click rite now to do that, this is not strategy....

    Sounds like this game needs to be made into turn based to please people.
    This is called hyperbole.

    Remember what YST just did:
    yst said:

    Meh all talks

    If those guys really wanna play micro -
    REMOVE GROUPING
    REMOVE ALL SHORTCUTS
    REMOVE SKIRMISH
    REMOVE AUTOSHOOT


    Absolute 0 uses from keyboard. Want micro? go enjoy the click fest

    Thats what you are doing right now. Stop exaggerating, and understand that there can be a balance struck between automating certain aspects of the game and leaving leaving others to player micro.
    Not at all, my posts ask to remove skirmish mode on missile cav, not on all units, eumies said that its a bad idea because the game is a strategy game not click game.
    The game is better the more strategy there is, it's true. You should just play on 2x speed then you can enjoy the great fun of a game that is more about fast decisions and reflexes and less about interesting decisions.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,677Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    .

    eumaies said:

    Not this again.

    Making the game harder to play to satisfy a few players who play this game a ton is nonsense. The point shoudl be to maximize strategy, not force you to babysit units doing predictable things.


    As has been discussed ad infinitum, using skirmishing mode is not always a good idea. It's a delegation of authority that can get you into trouble.

    In the past i suggested to remove it on all units not ONLY skirmish cav.

    If its not a good idea some of the time to use skirmish mode than even less reason to keep it.

    Its not really strategy though when you let AI play for you.
    The strategy is to tell your troops what you want them to do. The competitive clicking to see who is better at quickly telling their troops what to do is some other terrible game that has nothing to do with strategy. 0%. If I want my skirmish cav to run there is no strategy involved in making it harder for me to do that.
    In that case can we have

    Auto brace button
    Skirmish mode for melee if opponent is stronger
    Auto fire vs best target
    Auto cast spells onoptimum target
    Auto engage
    Auto disangage loosing fights

    Because rite now all above example are not strategy they are just clicking.


    I want to tell my troops to only engage fights they can win and avoid loosing fights, why do i have to click rite now to do that, this is not strategy....

    Sounds like this game needs to be made into turn based to please people.
    Those aren't worth button space on the screen as they're almost all useless.

    Auto brace would almost never be helpful and would mess up your charge bonus more often than help you vs an idiot cav charge. Takes more micro to use than to not use.

    All four related to "best/strong/optimum/losing" target are garbage optimizations that would be useless in a real game since the AI has useful conception of what those terms really mean in practice.

    Auto engage (i.e. chase nearest enemy unit for melee attack) is called rampage and the ability to turn that on would be fine - it's a standing order that simulates a general delegating important decisions to stupid commanders. I wouldn't use it much but it would actually be interesting micro to determine when to use. Just as skirmish button is, actually.

    And of course you can take it the other way if you prefer -- you should manually aim each archer, and units should swing only when you click on them. Go for it, prove you're the best.

    As I said above, all the useful buttons that allow players to focus on strategy rather than no-brainer commands could be optional in battle lobby screen for the tiny minority of players who want to play their peers who also think clicking is the most interesting part of this game.

    auto brace - can be a toggle like skirmish mode

    they not garbage they are strategy you tell your troops before the game so you don't have to click


    What strategy are you focusing on by clicking? Ain't you saying skirmish mode on missile cav should stay so you don't have to click as much?

    Keeping away from charging units with missile cav is strategy, its not just about clicking like you clim it to be.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,677Registered Users
    edited June 6
    eumaies said:

    Cukie251 said:

    eumaies said:

    .

    eumaies said:

    Not this again.

    Making the game harder to play to satisfy a few players who play this game a ton is nonsense. The point shoudl be to maximize strategy, not force you to babysit units doing predictable things.


    As has been discussed ad infinitum, using skirmishing mode is not always a good idea. It's a delegation of authority that can get you into trouble.

    In the past i suggested to remove it on all units not ONLY skirmish cav.

    If its not a good idea some of the time to use skirmish mode than even less reason to keep it.

    Its not really strategy though when you let AI play for you.
    The strategy is to tell your troops what you want them to do. The competitive clicking to see who is better at quickly telling their troops what to do is some other terrible game that has nothing to do with strategy. 0%. If I want my skirmish cav to run there is no strategy involved in making it harder for me to do that.
    In that case can we have

    Auto brace button
    Skirmish mode for melee if opponent is stronger
    Auto fire vs best target
    Auto cast spells onoptimum target
    Auto engage
    Auto disangage loosing fights

    Because rite now all above example are not strategy they are just clicking.


    I want to tell my troops to only engage fights they can win and avoid loosing fights, why do i have to click rite now to do that, this is not strategy....

    Sounds like this game needs to be made into turn based to please people.
    This is called hyperbole.

    Remember what YST just did:
    yst said:

    Meh all talks

    If those guys really wanna play micro -
    REMOVE GROUPING
    REMOVE ALL SHORTCUTS
    REMOVE SKIRMISH
    REMOVE AUTOSHOOT


    Absolute 0 uses from keyboard. Want micro? go enjoy the click fest

    Thats what you are doing right now. Stop exaggerating, and understand that there can be a balance struck between automating certain aspects of the game and leaving leaving others to player micro.
    Not at all, my posts ask to remove skirmish mode on missile cav, not on all units, eumies said that its a bad idea because the game is a strategy game not click game.
    The game is better the more strategy there is, it's true. You should just play on 2x speed then you can enjoy the great fun of a game that is more about fast decisions and reflexes and less about interesting decisions.
    I think it be to be made control the unit in multiplayer not have AI control it for you, its called multi player for a reason.

    And its really only a problem when the unit that AI plays for you is 95 speed.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,578Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    .

    eumaies said:

    Not this again.

    Making the game harder to play to satisfy a few players who play this game a ton is nonsense. The point shoudl be to maximize strategy, not force you to babysit units doing predictable things.


    As has been discussed ad infinitum, using skirmishing mode is not always a good idea. It's a delegation of authority that can get you into trouble.

    In the past i suggested to remove it on all units not ONLY skirmish cav.

    If its not a good idea some of the time to use skirmish mode than even less reason to keep it.

    Its not really strategy though when you let AI play for you.
    The strategy is to tell your troops what you want them to do. The competitive clicking to see who is better at quickly telling their troops what to do is some other terrible game that has nothing to do with strategy. 0%. If I want my skirmish cav to run there is no strategy involved in making it harder for me to do that.
    In that case can we have

    Auto brace button
    Skirmish mode for melee if opponent is stronger
    Auto fire vs best target
    Auto cast spells onoptimum target
    Auto engage
    Auto disangage loosing fights

    Because rite now all above example are not strategy they are just clicking.


    I want to tell my troops to only engage fights they can win and avoid loosing fights, why do i have to click rite now to do that, this is not strategy....

    Sounds like this game needs to be made into turn based to please people.
    Those aren't worth button space on the screen as they're almost all useless.

    Auto brace would almost never be helpful and would mess up your charge bonus more often than help you vs an idiot cav charge. Takes more micro to use than to not use.

    All four related to "best/strong/optimum/losing" target are garbage optimizations that would be useless in a real game since the AI has useful conception of what those terms really mean in practice.

    Auto engage (i.e. chase nearest enemy unit for melee attack) is called rampage and the ability to turn that on would be fine - it's a standing order that simulates a general delegating important decisions to stupid commanders. I wouldn't use it much but it would actually be interesting micro to determine when to use. Just as skirmish button is, actually.

    And of course you can take it the other way if you prefer -- you should manually aim each archer, and units should swing only when you click on them. Go for it, prove you're the best.

    As I said above, all the useful buttons that allow players to focus on strategy rather than no-brainer commands could be optional in battle lobby screen for the tiny minority of players who want to play their peers who also think clicking is the most interesting part of this game.

    auto brace - can be a toggle like skirmish mode

    they not garbage they are strategy you tell your troops before the game so you don't have to click


    What strategy are you focusing on by clicking? Ain't you saying skirmish mode on missile cav should stay so you don't have to click as much?

    Keeping away from charging units with missile cav is strategy, its not just about clicking like you clim it to be.
    Of course skirmishin from enemies is a strategy. That's exactly why there's no reason to make it more difficult to implement. Making strategies easier to implement, for example by allowing people to move units in formation, allows people to play the game at a higher level without training their reflexes. That in turn frees you up for smarter decisions or to do more clicking for the stuff that does require micro, whatever you enjoy in the game.

    Like i said auto brace is useless. If it was every a useful strategy to have that stance I'd support having the button. But it's so niche and counter to other goals for your units no one would ever use it.

    I'd take auto rampage as a button and auto-charge nearby enemy as a button. But they're both tradeoffs for a simpler interface and neither really adds that much value either.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,677Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    .

    eumaies said:

    Not this again.

    Making the game harder to play to satisfy a few players who play this game a ton is nonsense. The point shoudl be to maximize strategy, not force you to babysit units doing predictable things.


    As has been discussed ad infinitum, using skirmishing mode is not always a good idea. It's a delegation of authority that can get you into trouble.

    In the past i suggested to remove it on all units not ONLY skirmish cav.

    If its not a good idea some of the time to use skirmish mode than even less reason to keep it.

    Its not really strategy though when you let AI play for you.
    The strategy is to tell your troops what you want them to do. The competitive clicking to see who is better at quickly telling their troops what to do is some other terrible game that has nothing to do with strategy. 0%. If I want my skirmish cav to run there is no strategy involved in making it harder for me to do that.
    In that case can we have

    Auto brace button
    Skirmish mode for melee if opponent is stronger
    Auto fire vs best target
    Auto cast spells onoptimum target
    Auto engage
    Auto disangage loosing fights

    Because rite now all above example are not strategy they are just clicking.


    I want to tell my troops to only engage fights they can win and avoid loosing fights, why do i have to click rite now to do that, this is not strategy....

    Sounds like this game needs to be made into turn based to please people.
    Those aren't worth button space on the screen as they're almost all useless.

    Auto brace would almost never be helpful and would mess up your charge bonus more often than help you vs an idiot cav charge. Takes more micro to use than to not use.

    All four related to "best/strong/optimum/losing" target are garbage optimizations that would be useless in a real game since the AI has useful conception of what those terms really mean in practice.

    Auto engage (i.e. chase nearest enemy unit for melee attack) is called rampage and the ability to turn that on would be fine - it's a standing order that simulates a general delegating important decisions to stupid commanders. I wouldn't use it much but it would actually be interesting micro to determine when to use. Just as skirmish button is, actually.

    And of course you can take it the other way if you prefer -- you should manually aim each archer, and units should swing only when you click on them. Go for it, prove you're the best.

    As I said above, all the useful buttons that allow players to focus on strategy rather than no-brainer commands could be optional in battle lobby screen for the tiny minority of players who want to play their peers who also think clicking is the most interesting part of this game.

    auto brace - can be a toggle like skirmish mode

    they not garbage they are strategy you tell your troops before the game so you don't have to click


    What strategy are you focusing on by clicking? Ain't you saying skirmish mode on missile cav should stay so you don't have to click as much?

    Keeping away from charging units with missile cav is strategy, its not just about clicking like you clim it to be.
    Of course skirmishin from enemies is a strategy. That's exactly why there's no reason to make it more difficult to implement. Making strategies easier to implement, for example by allowing people to move units in formation, allows people to play the game at a higher level without training their reflexes. That in turn frees you up for smarter decisions or to do more clicking for the stuff that does require micro, whatever you enjoy in the game.

    Like i said auto brace is useless. If it was every a useful strategy to have that stance I'd support having the button. But it's so niche and counter to other goals for your units no one would ever use it.

    I'd take auto rampage as a button and auto-charge nearby enemy as a button. But they're both tradeoffs for a simpler interface and neither really adds that much value either.

    There is a reason to make it more difficult, and that is so that the player plays the game, rather than being able to pick the unit and AFK and still get best value out of it.

    Skirmish cav have the best speed in the game, so its easier to avoid opponents with them than with other units.

    You say you take the two example because there be a trade off, well there is no trade of with skirmish mode, its just a pure advantage on high speed unit.

    This also at max would affect 5 units in the army and not even for all factions, its be a great quality of life change for newer players also as they won't feel so helpless vs AI controlled units in multiplayer.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 709Registered Users
    It boils down to this:

    No one can actually present a legitimate balancing-based argument that the skirmish mode button should be removed. Because by everyone's own admission, skirmish mode typically uses ammo and chooses targets sub-optimally. You cant "Pick skirmish cav and afk" unless you want to shoot 700+ gold of arrows into a silver shield - pretending theres no skill to skirmish cav even with skirmish mode on is intentionally being ignorant.

    Which means, and I'm going to blow your mind with this, its a matter of preference and accessibility.

    I earnestly don't see why you would want to make a game less accessible for the majority of players, for the express purpose of making a type of unit more difficult to use. Especially if it wouldn't have an impact on the highest levels of play anyways.


    Fortunately, Skirmish mode is a staple for literally every Total War multiplayer. So your chances of changing it are quite low anyways.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,578Registered Users
    I’m surprised you’d say there’s no trade off to skirmishing with a fast unit. It’s easy to exploit if you have any fast units to trap them. And if you don’t then who wants to win just because someone sucks at micro?

    You win with your build and strategy, and skirmish cav are balanced fine. If someone is losing to them it has nothing to do with a comparative micro disadvantage. It’s because they didn’t bring the right counters, as it should be. Clicking to chase a skirmish cav is just as easy as having skirmish mode on.
  • 39821739175248623982173917524862 Posts: 624Registered Users
    Skirmish is not perfect, the AI can get easily sandwiched by a player with units that have the same speed or better. Skirmish also only works against close range melee persuers, the skirmish won't dodge missile duels or try and outrange other missile units. More often than not, the player can do that. Also group hotkeys and double tapping to focus his screen on the unit to move it whenever something comes close. It's just busywork, like another poster said, it functions exactly like right clicking an unit. Would you want to continuously spam orders for attack orders or move orders like older TW titles, which was not a design choice, but an engine limitation?
    TW has always been a real time strategy game and with an emphasis on strategy and less on spammy APM clickfests. I would prefer it stays that way.
    Not to mention, if you actually want to make this change exist in MP battles only, then you are alienating and chasing off potential players that have not tried MP, further decreasing the active MP playerbase.
    If you want to play with it off, there is nothing stopping you. Don't limit other people's options just because of your preferences.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,677Registered Users
    Cukie251 said:

    It boils down to this:

    No one can actually present a legitimate balancing-based argument that the skirmish mode button should be removed. Because by everyone's own admission, skirmish mode typically uses ammo and chooses targets sub-optimally. You cant "Pick skirmish cav and afk" unless you want to shoot 700+ gold of arrows into a silver shield - pretending theres no skill to skirmish cav even with skirmish mode on is intentionally being ignorant.

    Which means, and I'm going to blow your mind with this, its a matter of preference and accessibility.

    I earnestly don't see why you would want to make a game less accessible for the majority of players, for the express purpose of making a type of unit more difficult to use. Especially if it wouldn't have an impact on the highest levels of play anyways.


    Fortunately, Skirmish mode is a staple for literally every Total War multiplayer. So your chances of changing it are quite low anyways.

    The argument is;

    That the unit with 95 speed auto escaping any potential danger without requiring any attention from the player is not good for the game play.

    IM NOT saying remove skirmish mode from the game, only from missile cav, that is a big difference.
    eumaies said:

    I’m surprised you’d say there’s no trade off to skirmishing with a fast unit. It’s easy to exploit if you have any fast units to trap them. And if you don’t then who wants to win just because someone sucks at micro?

    You win with your build and strategy, and skirmish cav are balanced fine. If someone is losing to them it has nothing to do with a comparative micro disadvantage. It’s because they didn’t bring the right counters, as it should be. Clicking to chase a skirmish cav is just as easy as having skirmish mode on.

    Its not easy to exploit at all, what is say is simply not true.

    I agree with the 2nd part but point is that some of the counters to skirmish cav get countered by skirmish mode.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,578Registered Users
    Tips and tricks - disrupt an entire skirmishing cav firing line by charging a single armored cav model in their general direction. Good way to waste their ammo and time.

    Anyway if this button makes them better then removing this button would encourage ca to buff skirmishing cav, which in turn would allow click masters to get too much value out of them.

    Don’t be salty just because a button lets all players get similar expected value from a unit. That’s a good thing.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,677Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    Tips and tricks - disrupt an entire skirmishing cav firing line by charging a single armored cav model in their general direction. Good way to waste their ammo and time.

    Anyway if this button makes them better then removing this button would encourage ca to buff skirmishing cav, which in turn would allow click masters to get too much value out of them.

    Don’t be salty just because a button lets all players get similar expected value from a unit. That’s a good thing.

    Yeah it doesn't work like that, your tip is to throw away a cav unit for no reason...what kind of advice is that.

    No the button makes them easier to use not better, but easier i mean AI plays them for the player.

    How am i being salty? because i want players to have an easier way with dealing with computer controlled units in multiplayer?


    I mean your advice to dealing with them is to throw your cav away for free, i can understand why you would need it to be kept but others that don't want to throw the game away do have a hard time dealing with skirmish mode 95speed units.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,119Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    Tips and tricks - disrupt an entire skirmishing cav firing line by charging a single armored cav model in their general direction. Good way to waste their ammo and time.

    Anyway if this button makes them better then removing this button would encourage ca to buff skirmishing cav, which in turn would allow click masters to get too much value out of them.

    Don’t be salty just because a button lets all players get similar expected value from a unit. That’s a good thing.

    Yeah it doesn't work like that, your tip is to throw away a cav unit for no reason...what kind of advice is that.

    No the button makes them easier to use not better, but easier i mean AI plays them for the player.

    How am i being salty? because i want players to have an easier way with dealing with computer controlled units in multiplayer?


    I mean your advice to dealing with them is to throw your cav away for free, i can understand why you would need it to be kept but others that don't want to throw the game away do have a hard time dealing with skirmish mode 95speed units.
    it's really functionally equivalent to give an 'avoid melee' button, or 'shoot at most expensive target'. These really are the same, only difference is that missile cav shoots arrows and melee units do not so I don't see why we shouldn't give, say, Death Runners an option to run from an engagement with, say, Ironbreakers.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,578Registered Users
    Which unit giving players trouble again?

    Chasing a unit that theoretically counters you because maybe your opponent sucks at micro is not a skillful thing for people to learn. What’s good for people to learn is how to build a strategy and army that’s robust to skirmish cav.

    And feel free to read my actual tip.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 709Registered Users

    Cukie251 said:

    It boils down to this:

    No one can actually present a legitimate balancing-based argument that the skirmish mode button should be removed. Because by everyone's own admission, skirmish mode typically uses ammo and chooses targets sub-optimally. You cant "Pick skirmish cav and afk" unless you want to shoot 700+ gold of arrows into a silver shield - pretending theres no skill to skirmish cav even with skirmish mode on is intentionally being ignorant.

    Which means, and I'm going to blow your mind with this, its a matter of preference and accessibility.

    I earnestly don't see why you would want to make a game less accessible for the majority of players, for the express purpose of making a type of unit more difficult to use. Especially if it wouldn't have an impact on the highest levels of play anyways.


    Fortunately, Skirmish mode is a staple for literally every Total War multiplayer. So your chances of changing it are quite low anyways.

    The argument is;

    That the unit with 95 speed auto escaping any potential danger without requiring any attention from the player is not good for the game play.

    IM NOT saying remove skirmish mode from the game, only from missile cav, that is a big difference.
    eumaies said:

    I’m surprised you’d say there’s no trade off to skirmishing with a fast unit. It’s easy to exploit if you have any fast units to trap them. And if you don’t then who wants to win just because someone sucks at micro?

    You win with your build and strategy, and skirmish cav are balanced fine. If someone is losing to them it has nothing to do with a comparative micro disadvantage. It’s because they didn’t bring the right counters, as it should be. Clicking to chase a skirmish cav is just as easy as having skirmish mode on.

    Its not easy to exploit at all, what is say is simply not true.

    I agree with the 2nd part but point is that some of the counters to skirmish cav get countered by skirmish mode.
    Would the unit be able to do avoid units if played optimally? Yes.

    In that case, were the units you were sending after the cav even meant to counter them? Probably not.

    So skirmish cav is still functioning properly, and avoiding units that were never meant to counter them. Yes.

    Do you still have options to counter skirmish cav? Like archers, magic, and high speed fliers, yes. Does skirmish mode have any impact on these? No.


    So it has no impact on overall balance.

    You just want to make the game harder for less micro oriented people.

    In my opinion, and I would guess the opinion of several others here: Deliberately rolling back quality of life features on balanced units that were implimented because said units are a pain in the *** to micro is counter productive. Especially because you just want the opportunity for your oponent to make a dumb mistake that allows you to counter missile cav with a unit that otherwise shouldn't.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,677Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    Which unit giving players trouble again?

    Chasing a unit that theoretically counters you because maybe your opponent sucks at micro is not a skillful thing for people to learn. What’s good for people to learn is how to build a strategy and army that’s robust to skirmish cav.

    And feel free to read my actual tip.

    I did, and i stand by my interpretation of your tip, its a sure way to throw away your cav unit and achieve nothing.
    Cukie251 said:

    Cukie251 said:

    It boils down to this:

    No one can actually present a legitimate balancing-based argument that the skirmish mode button should be removed. Because by everyone's own admission, skirmish mode typically uses ammo and chooses targets sub-optimally. You cant "Pick skirmish cav and afk" unless you want to shoot 700+ gold of arrows into a silver shield - pretending theres no skill to skirmish cav even with skirmish mode on is intentionally being ignorant.

    Which means, and I'm going to blow your mind with this, its a matter of preference and accessibility.

    I earnestly don't see why you would want to make a game less accessible for the majority of players, for the express purpose of making a type of unit more difficult to use. Especially if it wouldn't have an impact on the highest levels of play anyways.


    Fortunately, Skirmish mode is a staple for literally every Total War multiplayer. So your chances of changing it are quite low anyways.

    The argument is;

    That the unit with 95 speed auto escaping any potential danger without requiring any attention from the player is not good for the game play.

    IM NOT saying remove skirmish mode from the game, only from missile cav, that is a big difference.
    eumaies said:

    I’m surprised you’d say there’s no trade off to skirmishing with a fast unit. It’s easy to exploit if you have any fast units to trap them. And if you don’t then who wants to win just because someone sucks at micro?

    You win with your build and strategy, and skirmish cav are balanced fine. If someone is losing to them it has nothing to do with a comparative micro disadvantage. It’s because they didn’t bring the right counters, as it should be. Clicking to chase a skirmish cav is just as easy as having skirmish mode on.

    Its not easy to exploit at all, what is say is simply not true.

    I agree with the 2nd part but point is that some of the counters to skirmish cav get countered by skirmish mode.
    Would the unit be able to do avoid units if played optimally? Yes.

    In that case, were the units you were sending after the cav even meant to counter them? Probably not.

    So skirmish cav is still functioning properly, and avoiding units that were never meant to counter them. Yes.

    Do you still have options to counter skirmish cav? Like archers, magic, and high speed fliers, yes. Does skirmish mode have any impact on these? No.


    So it has no impact on overall balance.

    You just want to make the game harder for less micro oriented people.

    In my opinion, and I would guess the opinion of several others here: Deliberately rolling back quality of life features on balanced units that were implimented because said units are a pain in the *** to micro is counter productive. Especially because you just want the opportunity for your oponent to make a dumb mistake that allows you to counter missile cav with a unit that otherwise shouldn't.
    No i want the players to play the game not AI play for them AND make it easier for players to catch missile cav.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,578Registered Users
    keep working on reading what i wrote in my tip.

    as for the rest, I think it's all been said.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,677Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    keep working on reading what i wrote in my tip.

    as for the rest, I think it's all been said.

    Keep believing its a tip.
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