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How do you think about fimir?

keroro7keroro7 Posts: 183Registered Users
I do not have objectivity because i thought when i saw the last tournament.
personally, i am worried that i did not have many match up with norska.

so this is my personal opinion from now.

Norsca and Chaos have received a buff for the Horse Master since the last patch.
i think that's a good idea for their weakness, i mean kitting, and I think it was a necessary patch for Chaos.

however, Norsca also has a horse master, i think that result remove weakness of Norsca, which has already got anit kitting tool, and buffed horse master has more decreased weak point. now i doubtful how to deal with a faction that does not have a power in the frontline fight because they got some useful tools that also prevent the kite.

frost wyrm = 90speed, -36% decrease speed aura, frostbite.
ice wolf = 95speed, frostbite
skin wolf = 65speed, regeneration (regen make them to less effect missiles for micro)

now once u got bitten them ur unit speed -76%, yes it mean never run, and when your movement stops, powerful warriors will approach you. like berserker, fimir, mammoth

so I think berseker, mammoth are fine. why it is norska's personality and they got some weakness.
but i don't find fimirs weakness.

45 speed, 22% missle resist, hard armor, some magic attack options.

Is there a reason why fimir should be so strong at this time?
i don't know, please tell me your opinion freely.
«1345

Comments

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,119Registered Users
    Norsca is not weak to kiting. It is one of the strongest anti-kiting factions in the game.

    Fimirs are way overtuned, there is no need for them to have BvL, magical attacks, armor sundering, missile resist and 110 armor all on the same unit.

    Mammoths, well, the mammoth lords are absolutely not fine, too high LD and HP. RoR Mammoth is also overtuned (beats every AL cav in the game 1v1 in prolonged melee).
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 1,702Registered Users
    Yeah Fimir need to lose something i would say armour sundering, and keep it for the ror.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,119Registered Users
    edited June 11

    Yeah Fimir need to lose something i would say armour sundering, and keep it for the ror.

    I would say they be balanced if they dropped armor sundering and missile resist. Norsca players shouldn't feel very safe in picking them vs strong missile factions. Likewise Armor Sundering synergizes too well with Berserkers/Norscan Marauders and allows these units to trade up very well, for example Empire can't bring a Greatswords frontline which would be a good pick vs Norsca otherwise because of Fimirs.

    Compare to Kroxigors, for 350g you get:

    +10 armor
    -10 LD
    +5 MA
    +13 MD
    +3 WS (with 27 BvL compared to the 20 of Kroxigors)
    +13 CB

    - extra 7% missile resist.
    - magical attacks
    - armor sundering

    I would say the stats buffs are worth around 200-250g because in particular the melee stats vs infantry are very decent, while Kroxigors are bad vs, say, even low tier cavs like Empire Knights or the 900g Silver Helms. You need to rank up Kroxigors to rank 8 (1324g) to have the same MA and still 4 less MD than these guys. Having a BvL is also arguably worth much more than having a BvI since large units are typically bigger threats in this game. Of course Fimirs have much lower LD, but again, LD is a two-edged sword and it only matters if you engage into fights that you could lose to begin with, which generally won't happen to Fimirs since there will likely be Berserker/Mammoth support. Realistically LD is an issue vs Undead factions which can terror rout you, and is a non-issue vs everyone else since their potential of evaporating a unit on the charge together with a Mammoth or some Berserkers is very high.

    So for 100g they get 7% extra missile resist, magical attacks and armor sundering.

    I would say their fair price should be something like 1450-1500g if they stay as they are, alternatively they could drop armor sundering and have only 15% missile resistance and -1 MA/-1 MD.
  • another505another505 Posts: 764Registered Users
    The mammoth buff definitely made them very viable now so fimir dont need such stats for its price

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,095Registered Users
    They have always been a bit too much IMO.
  • another505another505 Posts: 764Registered Users
    Just a question. I dont get why they have magic attack.
    I read fimir lore but doesnt explain any reason for it.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,149Registered Users
    Tbh, the frost wyrm is pretty rare, especially given how bad Norsca is at supporting aerial plays, so at most you're likely to face the 36% frostbite snare from throgg/icewolves. Tough, but not the 72% from the frost wyrm. Most of the other frostbite units are also pretty damn easy to rout. That aside, I do think fimir are somewhat overtuned, and think Green0 actually delivers a pretty solid analysis in comparison to Kroxigors. I do think the armor sundering is a bit strong, especially given that Norsca already has access to lore of death, metal and shadows, all of which come with armor debuffs. Personally I think stripping sundering from generic fimir and only leaving it on heroes and the RoR would be a solid start to nerfs, and maybe reducing missile resist to 15% could also be good.
    Green0 said:

    Norsca is not weak to kiting. It is one of the strongest anti-kiting factions in the game.

    Fimirs are way overtuned, there is no need for them to have BvL, magical attacks, armor sundering, missile resist and 110 armor all on the same unit.

    Mammoths, well, the mammoth lords are absolutely not fine, too high LD and HP. RoR Mammoth is also overtuned (beats every AL cav in the game 1v1 in prolonged melee).

    Norsca is pretty damn weak to kiting. Not the worst for sure, but they have very few tools to effectively punish enemy skirmishers, especially if they're reasonably supported, and unlike chaos don't have a bajillion silver shields they can throw in the path of skirmishers. Also don't agree with the mammoth analysis except the LD on lord variants. An RoR Mammoth costs an arm and a leg, would be pretty shocking if it didn't beat cav, especially when it gets its charge in.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,119Registered Users
    edited June 11
    Wyvern2 said:

    Tbh, the frost wyrm is pretty rare, especially given how bad Norsca is at supporting aerial plays, so at most you're likely to face the 36% frostbite snare from throgg/icewolves. Tough, but not the 72% from the frost wyrm. Most of the other frostbite units are also pretty damn easy to rout. That aside, I do think fimir are somewhat overtuned, and think Green0 actually delivers a pretty solid analysis in comparison to Kroxigors. I do think the armor sundering is a bit strong, especially given that Norsca already has access to lore of death, metal and shadows, all of which come with armor debuffs. Personally I think stripping sundering from generic fimir and only leaving it on heroes and the RoR would be a solid start to nerfs, and maybe reducing missile resist to 15% could also be good.

    Green0 said:

    Norsca is not weak to kiting. It is one of the strongest anti-kiting factions in the game.

    Fimirs are way overtuned, there is no need for them to have BvL, magical attacks, armor sundering, missile resist and 110 armor all on the same unit.

    Mammoths, well, the mammoth lords are absolutely not fine, too high LD and HP. RoR Mammoth is also overtuned (beats every AL cav in the game 1v1 in prolonged melee).

    Norsca is pretty damn weak to kiting. Not the worst for sure, but they have very few tools to effectively punish enemy skirmishers, especially if they're reasonably supported, and unlike chaos don't have a bajillion silver shields they can throw in the path of skirmishers. Also don't agree with the mammoth analysis except the LD on lord variants. An RoR Mammoth costs an arm and a leg, would be pretty shocking if it didn't beat cav, especially when it gets its charge in.
    I am curious why u think Norsca is weak to kiting? I play them occasionally and it seems the roster is full of anti-kiting tools. Frost Wolves (with Frostbite and ~95 speed), Marauder Horsemasters have very decent DPS, fairly tanky and high LD for a missile cav, in melee they also get the Norsca passive. Frost Wyrm can help you win fights vs stuff like Cold One Knights, Skin Wolves are also very strong at destroying any low-tier heavy cav. The RoR Norsca Ice Wolves also have something like 40% missile resist. iirc.

    I mean, yeah, if you bring a Marauder Berserker frontline with Fimirs, then yeah you're weak to kiting but that's on you building a "bad" army and getting outpicked in army builder not on Norsca being weak.

    I'm curious though why u think Norsca is weak to kiting. What factions can contest them in kiting and outplay them? Except maybe WE I don't see any. HE, DE, Empire, Beastmen, I think Norsca can comfortably counter kiting by any of these factions.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 183Registered Users
    edited June 11
    Green0 said:

    Norsca is not weak to kiting. It is one of the strongest anti-kiting factions in the game.

    Fimirs are way overtuned, there is no need for them to have BvL, magical attacks, armor sundering, missile resist and 110 armor all on the same unit.

    Mammoths, well, the mammoth lords are absolutely not fine, too high LD and HP. RoR Mammoth is also overtuned (beats every AL cav in the game 1v1 in prolonged melee).

    yes, maybe u r right. mostly I used kite against norsca and it works well, but like i said, I do not have much experience against norsca. maybe i have thought it was a micro-fight if the norsca before the patch, but this time is not for buffed horse master. so now I agree ur opinion. and another parts, actually i do not know well so I will spare my words.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,095Registered Users
    I have had better results kiting norsca than feeding their mammoths fighting norsca. :)
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,149Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Tbh, the frost wyrm is pretty rare, especially given how bad Norsca is at supporting aerial plays, so at most you're likely to face the 36% frostbite snare from throgg/icewolves. Tough, but not the 72% from the frost wyrm. Most of the other frostbite units are also pretty damn easy to rout. That aside, I do think fimir are somewhat overtuned, and think Green0 actually delivers a pretty solid analysis in comparison to Kroxigors. I do think the armor sundering is a bit strong, especially given that Norsca already has access to lore of death, metal and shadows, all of which come with armor debuffs. Personally I think stripping sundering from generic fimir and only leaving it on heroes and the RoR would be a solid start to nerfs, and maybe reducing missile resist to 15% could also be good.

    Green0 said:

    Norsca is not weak to kiting. It is one of the strongest anti-kiting factions in the game.

    Fimirs are way overtuned, there is no need for them to have BvL, magical attacks, armor sundering, missile resist and 110 armor all on the same unit.

    Mammoths, well, the mammoth lords are absolutely not fine, too high LD and HP. RoR Mammoth is also overtuned (beats every AL cav in the game 1v1 in prolonged melee).

    Norsca is pretty damn weak to kiting. Not the worst for sure, but they have very few tools to effectively punish enemy skirmishers, especially if they're reasonably supported, and unlike chaos don't have a bajillion silver shields they can throw in the path of skirmishers. Also don't agree with the mammoth analysis except the LD on lord variants. An RoR Mammoth costs an arm and a leg, would be pretty shocking if it didn't beat cav, especially when it gets its charge in.
    I am curious why u think Norsca is weak to kiting? I play them occasionally and it seems the roster is full of anti-kiting tools. Frost Wolves (with Frostbite and ~95 speed), Marauder Horsemasters have very decent DPS, fairly tanky and high LD for a missile cav, in melee they also get the Norsca passive. Frost Wyrm can help you win fights vs stuff like Cold One Knights, Skin Wolves are also very strong at destroying any low-tier heavy cav. The RoR Norsca Ice Wolves also have something like 40% missile resist. iirc.

    I mean, yeah, if you bring a Marauder Berserker frontline with Fimirs, then yeah you're weak to kiting but that's on you building a "bad" army and getting outpicked in army builder not on Norsca being weak.

    I'm curious though why u think Norsca is weak to kiting. What factions can contest them in kiting and outplay them? Except maybe WE I don't see any. HE, DE, Empire, Beastmen, I think Norsca can comfortably counter kiting by any of these factions.
    its 50% on beasts of tashnaar actually, but theyre only hounds, not wolves.

    Either way, Norsca lacks range to zone off well microed horse skirmishers which reduces them to shutting down skirmishers via melee only. This isn't bad in and of itself, given that other factions are in a similar boat, including beastmen, chaos and vampire counts. The problem is that the former has a cavalry roster composed entirely of units that have light cav speed, giving them ridiculous group maneuverability, and the latter two have hard hitting heavy cav/monstrous cav to back their fast counter-skirmishers with. Norsca has skinwolves, and that's practically it. Not saying skinwolves are bad, but they also aren't going to win you any beauty contests if your opponent decides to throw down the gauntlet in the flank fight. There's also the problem of icewolves costing 650 gold and having trash leadership and being your only cheap snaring unit. At least the poison hounds of other factions cost a mere 475 gold, and they deliver more utility if the fight degenerates into an actual cav battle since poison debuffs damage.

    I'm not trying to say norsca can't counter skirmish play or anything of that nature btw, but I think that to call them great at countering a well orchestrated kite build is simply inaccurate, especially when something like half the factions in the game can handily counter skirmish play with skirmishers/artilery of their own. As for their own ability to kite, they're basically chaos 2.0, not the worst I guess, but not exactly stellar either.
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    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPI93p-X2T4YKD18O16bhPw
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,126Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Frost Wolves (with Frostbite and ~95 speed), Marauder Horsemasters have very decent DPS, fairly tanky and high LD for a missile cav,

    It is quite similar to Chaos. But with Chaos poison dogos having more utility(not just slow, but minus WS too) and being cheaper.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,151Registered Users
    edited June 11
    Fimirs are extremely strong, but I don't believe they need a big nerf. They are like on the verge of being OP, but not quite there imo.

    Removing armor sundering is not even an option here. Some people have too high of an expectation on our power here in Balance forum. This game is SP, removing one of the defining trait of a unit is not an option. Fimirs could maybe use less armor and a smaller missile resist. Just to make them a tad more vulnerable.


  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,119Registered Users
    edited June 11
    Wyvern2 said:

    Green0 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Tbh, the frost wyrm is pretty rare, especially given how bad Norsca is at supporting aerial plays, so at most you're likely to face the 36% frostbite snare from throgg/icewolves. Tough, but not the 72% from the frost wyrm. Most of the other frostbite units are also pretty damn easy to rout. That aside, I do think fimir are somewhat overtuned, and think Green0 actually delivers a pretty solid analysis in comparison to Kroxigors. I do think the armor sundering is a bit strong, especially given that Norsca already has access to lore of death, metal and shadows, all of which come with armor debuffs. Personally I think stripping sundering from generic fimir and only leaving it on heroes and the RoR would be a solid start to nerfs, and maybe reducing missile resist to 15% could also be good.

    Green0 said:

    Norsca is not weak to kiting. It is one of the strongest anti-kiting factions in the game.

    Fimirs are way overtuned, there is no need for them to have BvL, magical attacks, armor sundering, missile resist and 110 armor all on the same unit.

    Mammoths, well, the mammoth lords are absolutely not fine, too high LD and HP. RoR Mammoth is also overtuned (beats every AL cav in the game 1v1 in prolonged melee).

    Norsca is pretty damn weak to kiting. Not the worst for sure, but they have very few tools to effectively punish enemy skirmishers, especially if they're reasonably supported, and unlike chaos don't have a bajillion silver shields they can throw in the path of skirmishers. Also don't agree with the mammoth analysis except the LD on lord variants. An RoR Mammoth costs an arm and a leg, would be pretty shocking if it didn't beat cav, especially when it gets its charge in.
    I am curious why u think Norsca is weak to kiting? I play them occasionally and it seems the roster is full of anti-kiting tools. Frost Wolves (with Frostbite and ~95 speed), Marauder Horsemasters have very decent DPS, fairly tanky and high LD for a missile cav, in melee they also get the Norsca passive. Frost Wyrm can help you win fights vs stuff like Cold One Knights, Skin Wolves are also very strong at destroying any low-tier heavy cav. The RoR Norsca Ice Wolves also have something like 40% missile resist. iirc.

    I mean, yeah, if you bring a Marauder Berserker frontline with Fimirs, then yeah you're weak to kiting but that's on you building a "bad" army and getting outpicked in army builder not on Norsca being weak.

    I'm curious though why u think Norsca is weak to kiting. What factions can contest them in kiting and outplay them? Except maybe WE I don't see any. HE, DE, Empire, Beastmen, I think Norsca can comfortably counter kiting by any of these factions.
    its 50% on beasts of tashnaar actually, but theyre only hounds, not wolves.

    Either way, Norsca lacks range to zone off well microed horse skirmishers which reduces them to shutting down skirmishers via melee only. This isn't bad in and of itself, given that other factions are in a similar boat, including beastmen, chaos and vampire counts. The problem is that the former has a cavalry roster composed entirely of units that have light cav speed, giving them ridiculous group maneuverability, and the latter two have hard hitting heavy cav/monstrous cav to back their fast counter-skirmishers with. Norsca has skinwolves, and that's practically it. Not saying skinwolves are bad, but they also aren't going to win you any beauty contests if your opponent decides to throw down the gauntlet in the flank fight. There's also the problem of icewolves costing 650 gold and having trash leadership and being your only cheap snaring unit. At least the poison hounds of other factions cost a mere 475 gold, and they deliver more utility if the fight degenerates into an actual cav battle since poison debuffs damage.

    I'm not trying to say norsca can't counter skirmish play or anything of that nature btw, but I think that to call them great at countering a well orchestrated kite build is simply inaccurate, especially when something like half the factions in the game can handily counter skirmish play with skirmishers/artilery of their own. As for their own ability to kite, they're basically chaos 2.0, not the worst I guess, but not exactly stellar either.
    you pretty much admit that Norsca has counters to any mid-tier and light cav, except for stuff like Demis or Dragons ("ultimate weapons/elite cav"), right?

    Well, vs that you use a fall back point in the form of Fimirs/Mammoths. So Norsca is 100% kite-proof in my view.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,151Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Green0 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Tbh, the frost wyrm is pretty rare, especially given how bad Norsca is at supporting aerial plays, so at most you're likely to face the 36% frostbite snare from throgg/icewolves. Tough, but not the 72% from the frost wyrm. Most of the other frostbite units are also pretty damn easy to rout. That aside, I do think fimir are somewhat overtuned, and think Green0 actually delivers a pretty solid analysis in comparison to Kroxigors. I do think the armor sundering is a bit strong, especially given that Norsca already has access to lore of death, metal and shadows, all of which come with armor debuffs. Personally I think stripping sundering from generic fimir and only leaving it on heroes and the RoR would be a solid start to nerfs, and maybe reducing missile resist to 15% could also be good.

    Green0 said:

    Norsca is not weak to kiting. It is one of the strongest anti-kiting factions in the game.

    Fimirs are way overtuned, there is no need for them to have BvL, magical attacks, armor sundering, missile resist and 110 armor all on the same unit.

    Mammoths, well, the mammoth lords are absolutely not fine, too high LD and HP. RoR Mammoth is also overtuned (beats every AL cav in the game 1v1 in prolonged melee).

    Norsca is pretty damn weak to kiting. Not the worst for sure, but they have very few tools to effectively punish enemy skirmishers, especially if they're reasonably supported, and unlike chaos don't have a bajillion silver shields they can throw in the path of skirmishers. Also don't agree with the mammoth analysis except the LD on lord variants. An RoR Mammoth costs an arm and a leg, would be pretty shocking if it didn't beat cav, especially when it gets its charge in.
    I am curious why u think Norsca is weak to kiting? I play them occasionally and it seems the roster is full of anti-kiting tools. Frost Wolves (with Frostbite and ~95 speed), Marauder Horsemasters have very decent DPS, fairly tanky and high LD for a missile cav, in melee they also get the Norsca passive. Frost Wyrm can help you win fights vs stuff like Cold One Knights, Skin Wolves are also very strong at destroying any low-tier heavy cav. The RoR Norsca Ice Wolves also have something like 40% missile resist. iirc.

    I mean, yeah, if you bring a Marauder Berserker frontline with Fimirs, then yeah you're weak to kiting but that's on you building a "bad" army and getting outpicked in army builder not on Norsca being weak.

    I'm curious though why u think Norsca is weak to kiting. What factions can contest them in kiting and outplay them? Except maybe WE I don't see any. HE, DE, Empire, Beastmen, I think Norsca can comfortably counter kiting by any of these factions.
    its 50% on beasts of tashnaar actually, but theyre only hounds, not wolves.

    Either way, Norsca lacks range to zone off well microed horse skirmishers which reduces them to shutting down skirmishers via melee only. This isn't bad in and of itself, given that other factions are in a similar boat, including beastmen, chaos and vampire counts. The problem is that the former has a cavalry roster composed entirely of units that have light cav speed, giving them ridiculous group maneuverability, and the latter two have hard hitting heavy cav/monstrous cav to back their fast counter-skirmishers with. Norsca has skinwolves, and that's practically it. Not saying skinwolves are bad, but they also aren't going to win you any beauty contests if your opponent decides to throw down the gauntlet in the flank fight. There's also the problem of icewolves costing 650 gold and having trash leadership and being your only cheap snaring unit. At least the poison hounds of other factions cost a mere 475 gold, and they deliver more utility if the fight degenerates into an actual cav battle since poison debuffs damage.

    I'm not trying to say norsca can't counter skirmish play or anything of that nature btw, but I think that to call them great at countering a well orchestrated kite build is simply inaccurate, especially when something like half the factions in the game can handily counter skirmish play with skirmishers/artilery of their own. As for their own ability to kite, they're basically chaos 2.0, not the worst I guess, but not exactly stellar either.
    you pretty much admit that Norsca has counters to any mid-tier and light cav, except for stuff like Demis or Dragons, right?

    Well, vs that you use a fall back point in the form of Fimirs/Mammoths. So Norsca is 100% kite-proof in my view.
    Hum ok, nothing is 100% something proof... dont use hyperboly please, is leads no where


  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,126Registered Users
    edited June 11
    Green0 said:


    you pretty much admit that Norsca has counters to any mid-tier and light cav, except for stuff like Demis or Dragons, right?

    As any faction in the game. It is who guess enemy pick better.
    Green0 said:


    Well, vs that you use a fall back point in the form of Fimirs/Mammoths. So Norsca is 100% kite-proof in my view.

    It depend on how much Norsca invest in anti kite and how much you invest in kite. You have not enough funds for both Fimirs/Mammonths heavy army and anti kite.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,119Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Green0 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Tbh, the frost wyrm is pretty rare, especially given how bad Norsca is at supporting aerial plays, so at most you're likely to face the 36% frostbite snare from throgg/icewolves. Tough, but not the 72% from the frost wyrm. Most of the other frostbite units are also pretty damn easy to rout. That aside, I do think fimir are somewhat overtuned, and think Green0 actually delivers a pretty solid analysis in comparison to Kroxigors. I do think the armor sundering is a bit strong, especially given that Norsca already has access to lore of death, metal and shadows, all of which come with armor debuffs. Personally I think stripping sundering from generic fimir and only leaving it on heroes and the RoR would be a solid start to nerfs, and maybe reducing missile resist to 15% could also be good.

    Green0 said:

    Norsca is not weak to kiting. It is one of the strongest anti-kiting factions in the game.

    Fimirs are way overtuned, there is no need for them to have BvL, magical attacks, armor sundering, missile resist and 110 armor all on the same unit.

    Mammoths, well, the mammoth lords are absolutely not fine, too high LD and HP. RoR Mammoth is also overtuned (beats every AL cav in the game 1v1 in prolonged melee).

    Norsca is pretty damn weak to kiting. Not the worst for sure, but they have very few tools to effectively punish enemy skirmishers, especially if they're reasonably supported, and unlike chaos don't have a bajillion silver shields they can throw in the path of skirmishers. Also don't agree with the mammoth analysis except the LD on lord variants. An RoR Mammoth costs an arm and a leg, would be pretty shocking if it didn't beat cav, especially when it gets its charge in.
    I am curious why u think Norsca is weak to kiting? I play them occasionally and it seems the roster is full of anti-kiting tools. Frost Wolves (with Frostbite and ~95 speed), Marauder Horsemasters have very decent DPS, fairly tanky and high LD for a missile cav, in melee they also get the Norsca passive. Frost Wyrm can help you win fights vs stuff like Cold One Knights, Skin Wolves are also very strong at destroying any low-tier heavy cav. The RoR Norsca Ice Wolves also have something like 40% missile resist. iirc.

    I mean, yeah, if you bring a Marauder Berserker frontline with Fimirs, then yeah you're weak to kiting but that's on you building a "bad" army and getting outpicked in army builder not on Norsca being weak.

    I'm curious though why u think Norsca is weak to kiting. What factions can contest them in kiting and outplay them? Except maybe WE I don't see any. HE, DE, Empire, Beastmen, I think Norsca can comfortably counter kiting by any of these factions.
    its 50% on beasts of tashnaar actually, but theyre only hounds, not wolves.

    Either way, Norsca lacks range to zone off well microed horse skirmishers which reduces them to shutting down skirmishers via melee only. This isn't bad in and of itself, given that other factions are in a similar boat, including beastmen, chaos and vampire counts. The problem is that the former has a cavalry roster composed entirely of units that have light cav speed, giving them ridiculous group maneuverability, and the latter two have hard hitting heavy cav/monstrous cav to back their fast counter-skirmishers with. Norsca has skinwolves, and that's practically it. Not saying skinwolves are bad, but they also aren't going to win you any beauty contests if your opponent decides to throw down the gauntlet in the flank fight. There's also the problem of icewolves costing 650 gold and having trash leadership and being your only cheap snaring unit. At least the poison hounds of other factions cost a mere 475 gold, and they deliver more utility if the fight degenerates into an actual cav battle since poison debuffs damage.

    I'm not trying to say norsca can't counter skirmish play or anything of that nature btw, but I think that to call them great at countering a well orchestrated kite build is simply inaccurate, especially when something like half the factions in the game can handily counter skirmish play with skirmishers/artilery of their own. As for their own ability to kite, they're basically chaos 2.0, not the worst I guess, but not exactly stellar either.
    you pretty much admit that Norsca has counters to any mid-tier and light cav, except for stuff like Demis or Dragons, right?

    Well, vs that you use a fall back point in the form of Fimirs/Mammoths. So Norsca is 100% kite-proof in my view.
    Hum ok, nothing is 100% something proof... dont use hyperboly please, is leads no where
    we're arguing opinions here, I think nobody offered a piece of "proof" so far. Wyvern agrees that Norsca has good anti low-tier kiting tools. I claim that Fimirs + Mammoths bridge the gap of countering high-tier kiting (~dragons, Demis, etc.).

    On a side note, it's not like other factions (except perhaps WE) fare much better than Norsca in terms of anti-kiting. HE, only 750g Reaver archers and 550g Reavers (no poison, only 92 speed vs 95 or Warhounds). Empire, no anti-kiting except Pistoliers and maybe Steam Tank. So yeah. Countering kiting in general isn't easy regardless of the faction you pick and Norsca isn't better or worse off.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,119Registered Users
    tank3487 said:


    It depend on how much Norsca invest in anti kite and how much you invest in kite. You have not enough funds for both Fimirs/Mammonths heavy army and anti kite.

    yes, but this applies equally to every faction. Bring a lot of infantry as Empire expecting a line rush by Norsca and they go kite instead -> loss.

    Bring a defensive build as HE and DE go kite -> generally a loss.

    So yeah my key point is that the tools are there, hounds with slow effect and missile resist, Skin Wolves killing every mid-tier cav, Fimirs for the rest, and Marauders for counter-skirmishing.
  • VistahmVistahm Posts: 213Registered Users
    So many misconceptions going around here.

    First Norsca is decent vs kiting, of course Norsca is better than chaos with regard to kiting, but that does not mean Norsca is great at dealing with kiting builds, it means that Chaos sucks at dealing with kiting.

    Second , marauders horsemasters are a great unit vs Beastmen, Chaos, in the mirror, and vs Dark elves, but pointless vs everything else, where you are way better off picking the cheapest misisle cav option. So saying that they are a great anti kiting tool is simply not true.
    Third HE, empire WE, Dark elves, lizardmen, and even greenskins can kite Norsca succesfully.
    And in general I agree completly with what Wyvern have been saying above with regard to norsca prowess as an anti kiting race.

    Finally to answer the OP, and state my opinion about fimirs, I have to say that imo Fimirs are balanced right now and do not deserve a nerf.

    Fimirs are a super overhyped unit imo, is just the exact opposite of what happens with trolls imo.

    Normal fimirs are in fact an underwhelming unit, that I personally never pick, because imo they are seldom worth it. I only pick the ROR version in the skaven match up, and sometimes vs greenskins too, but even in this last match up I have started using the double feral manticore pick which I find overall way more useful than the ROR fimirs

    The thing with fimirs is that on paper they look great and amazing with a lot of cool abilities, but in practice in a roster like the Norsca one where you have trolls competing also to accomplish the exact same role, 95 % percent of the time you are better off going with trolls.
    Trolls are probably one of the most underrated unit at the moment, they fill the same spot than fimirs basically, but they have in fact a higher damage outpout, more speed, frost bite (ice trolls) and a super nice comeback mechanic with regeneration that allow them to heal a huge chunk of their lost health, and keep smashing the already tatter units of the enemy. And most important they cost a whooping 400 gold less than fimirs, which is simply great and the most decisive factor.

    So nerfing normal fimirs would make an already meh unit even more useless imo, and the nerf will certanily only have an impact on Norscan noobs.

    And you know what, it seems I am not the only one that thinks that way, cause if you take a look at the last tourney stream you would see that Felckon a top Norsca player, never picks normal fimirs only the ROR ones.

    And with regard to fimirs great weapons this unit has got several nerfs since their re-release during the Queen and Crone patch, and after all those nerfs they are finally balanced.
    They excel at killing heavy cav, but they are ot nearly as good at dealing with monsters (they normally can not envelope them well and also for their **** leadership that means they get terror tout easily) especially if they are in a blob.

    Also like any other mosntruous inf they can not work vs inf on their own , they need an inf support unit to being able to do that.

    They are a good pick vs the heavy cav factions namely HE, VC, empire brettonia, and lizardmen.

    Probably vs Chaos also, but taking into account that Chaos knights suck and almost none bring them, and that Norsca has much better ways to deal with shaggoths, like marauders javelin spam, I think they are far from being an optimal pick here.

    And of the above stated races where fimirs great weapons are good, only one of them may have problems dealing with them all the others have enouh tools for that aim.

    A unit that is good in 5 fact match ups out of 14 is hardly an OP unit.








  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 1,702Registered Users
    i was referring to Fimirs GW.
  • VistahmVistahm Posts: 213Registered Users
    edited June 11
    "Skin Wolves killing every mid-tier cav"

    First of all I would like to know what do you mean with mid -tier cav.

    Cause if you are talking about errant knights, empire knights or silver helms your point makes sense.

    But If you are referring to reiksguard, cold ones spear riders and knights, and knights of the realm I disagree.

    Edited for politeness, Canuovea
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,119Registered Users
    edited June 11
    Vistahm said:

    "Skin Wolves killing every mid-tier cav"

    First of all I would like to know what do you mean with mid -tier cav.

    Cause if you are talking about errant knights, empire knights or silver helms your point makes sense.

    But If you are referring to reiksguard, cold ones spear riders and knights, and knights of the realm I disagree.

    bring armored variant vs those + Plague of Rust support ez. If outnumbered you can always bring Fimir to support they are basically a halberd support unit.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 709Registered Users
    edited June 11
    Green0 said:

    Vistahm said:

    "Skin Wolves killing every mid-tier cav"

    First of all I would like to know what do you mean with mid -tier cav.

    Cause if you are talking about errant knights, empire knights or silver helms your point might makes sense.

    But If you are referring to reiksguard, cold ones spear riders and knights, and knights of the realm I simply have no words .

    SPEECHLESS

    bring armored variant vs those + Plague of Rust support ez. If outnumbered you can always bring Fimir to support they are basically a halberd support unit.
    Green0 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Green0 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Tbh, the frost wyrm is pretty rare, especially given how bad Norsca is at supporting aerial plays, so at most you're likely to face the 36% frostbite snare from throgg/icewolves. Tough, but not the 72% from the frost wyrm. Most of the other frostbite units are also pretty damn easy to rout. That aside, I do think fimir are somewhat overtuned, and think Green0 actually delivers a pretty solid analysis in comparison to Kroxigors. I do think the armor sundering is a bit strong, especially given that Norsca already has access to lore of death, metal and shadows, all of which come with armor debuffs. Personally I think stripping sundering from generic fimir and only leaving it on heroes and the RoR would be a solid start to nerfs, and maybe reducing missile resist to 15% could also be good.

    Green0 said:

    Norsca is not weak to kiting. It is one of the strongest anti-kiting factions in the game.

    Fimirs are way overtuned, there is no need for them to have BvL, magical attacks, armor sundering, missile resist and 110 armor all on the same unit.

    Mammoths, well, the mammoth lords are absolutely not fine, too high LD and HP. RoR Mammoth is also overtuned (beats every AL cav in the game 1v1 in prolonged melee).

    Norsca is pretty damn weak to kiting. Not the worst for sure, but they have very few tools to effectively punish enemy skirmishers, especially if they're reasonably supported, and unlike chaos don't have a bajillion silver shields they can throw in the path of skirmishers. Also don't agree with the mammoth analysis except the LD on lord variants. An RoR Mammoth costs an arm and a leg, would be pretty shocking if it didn't beat cav, especially when it gets its charge in.
    I am curious why u think Norsca is weak to kiting? I play them occasionally and it seems the roster is full of anti-kiting tools. Frost Wolves (with Frostbite and ~95 speed), Marauder Horsemasters have very decent DPS, fairly tanky and high LD for a missile cav, in melee they also get the Norsca passive. Frost Wyrm can help you win fights vs stuff like Cold One Knights, Skin Wolves are also very strong at destroying any low-tier heavy cav. The RoR Norsca Ice Wolves also have something like 40% missile resist. iirc.

    I mean, yeah, if you bring a Marauder Berserker frontline with Fimirs, then yeah you're weak to kiting but that's on you building a "bad" army and getting outpicked in army builder not on Norsca being weak.

    I'm curious though why u think Norsca is weak to kiting. What factions can contest them in kiting and outplay them? Except maybe WE I don't see any. HE, DE, Empire, Beastmen, I think Norsca can comfortably counter kiting by any of these factions.
    its 50% on beasts of tashnaar actually, but theyre only hounds, not wolves.

    Either way, Norsca lacks range to zone off well microed horse skirmishers which reduces them to shutting down skirmishers via melee only. This isn't bad in and of itself, given that other factions are in a similar boat, including beastmen, chaos and vampire counts. The problem is that the former has a cavalry roster composed entirely of units that have light cav speed, giving them ridiculous group maneuverability, and the latter two have hard hitting heavy cav/monstrous cav to back their fast counter-skirmishers with. Norsca has skinwolves, and that's practically it. Not saying skinwolves are bad, but they also aren't going to win you any beauty contests if your opponent decides to throw down the gauntlet in the flank fight. There's also the problem of icewolves costing 650 gold and having trash leadership and being your only cheap snaring unit. At least the poison hounds of other factions cost a mere 475 gold, and they deliver more utility if the fight degenerates into an actual cav battle since poison debuffs damage.

    I'm not trying to say norsca can't counter skirmish play or anything of that nature btw, but I think that to call them great at countering a well orchestrated kite build is simply inaccurate, especially when something like half the factions in the game can handily counter skirmish play with skirmishers/artilery of their own. As for their own ability to kite, they're basically chaos 2.0, not the worst I guess, but not exactly stellar either.
    you pretty much admit that Norsca has counters to any mid-tier and light cav, except for stuff like Demis or Dragons ("ultimate weapons/elite cav"), right?

    Well, vs that you use a fall back point in the form of Fimirs/Mammoths. So Norsca is 100% kite-proof in my view.
    Except he didn't.

    Norsica has quantifiably fewer options than most other factions into skirmish. See: static ranged units - of which norsica has doesn't have -They have to fully commit a portion of their army to zoning out skirmishers whereas other factions only have to buy a few ranged units.

    Fimirs /mammoths are a fallback point? What are you talking about? How are those supposed to stop skirmish cav, they are slow, big, and skirmish cav's ideal targets. Sending those forward is just giving your opponent more value.

    That leaves skin wolves and ice wolves. As someone above said, icewolves will lose in a straight fight with screening elements and doesn't have the combat utility of a poison hound while costing more.

    So now we have skin wolves and armored skin wolves. Good units, but crucially arn't actually fast enough to catch skirmishers, and won't actually beat an ap/al cav (or just an al cav if normal) in a straight fight. On-top of being expensive and less versatile than a typical cav unit.

    Could you combine all of these elements to stop a skirmish force? Absolutely. But even 2x ice and 2x armored skin wolves is going to be running you 3.5k. Thats a pretty big commitment and that won't even stop your opponent if he goes all in on the skirmish game w/ supporting elements. Which is what it boils down to, other factions have units to zone off skirmish cav, norsica's only real method of fighting back is a full commitment.
  • ystyst Posts: 5,361Registered Users
    Vistahm said:

    Fimirs are a super overhyped unit imo

    Pretty much that, nothing more needs to be added. Fimirs being $1200 and beyond does less dmg than a $800 trolls. All that $400 paid is nothing more than stats, ld, armor the whole lot. Not to mention significantly less speed than trolls, those armor can easily be valued out. Since uve trolls and armoured trolls which have the same armor as fimirs.

    End of the day simply utility being superceded by dmg, what fimirs have, r paid in huge premiums. U can fight it out with $1400 minos 2h vs $1350 fimir 2h, its not even frikking close, they completely obliterate them in spectacular heroic outcome.

    I rather use minos than fimirs, even when they r more expensive and crazily so much more vulnerable. However when it comes to that crucial go time, they dont dissapoints. Ld isnt high either, 60 ld for 1.2k 1.35k is pretty low
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,119Registered Users
    edited June 11
    Cukie251 said:


    Fimirs /mammoths are a fallback point? What are you talking about? How are those supposed to stop skirmish cav,

    with their 110 armor mate.

    Inb4 Dark Rider crossbows which you can FULLY deny with a 400g Hound unit vs 650g cost of the crossbows.

    Honestly if you're scared of something like Ellyrean Reavers with your Fimirs, you're not playing Norsca right.
    The only faction where they are a bad pick is probably WE, there... you know, you don't need to take them.
    yst said:

    Vistahm said:

    Fimirs are a super overhyped unit imo

    Pretty much that, nothing more needs to be added. Fimirs being $1200 and beyond does less dmg than a $800 trolls. All that $400 paid is nothing more than stats, ld, armor the whole lot. Not to mention significantly less speed than trolls, those armor can easily be valued out. Since uve trolls and armoured trolls which have the same armor as fimirs.

    End of the day simply utility being superceded by dmg, what fimirs have, r paid in huge premiums. U can fight it out with $1400 minos 2h vs $1350 fimir 2h, its not even frikking close, they completely obliterate them in spectacular heroic outcome.

    I rather use minos than fimirs, even when they r more expensive and crazily so much more vulnerable. However when it comes to that crucial go time, they dont dissapoints. Ld isnt high either, 60 ld for 1.2k 1.35k is pretty low
    don't forget 27 BvL and armor sundering and 110 armor.

    How much armor do Trolls have again? How much BvL? What about LD?
  • VistahmVistahm Posts: 213Registered Users
    edited June 11

    bring armored variant vs those + Plague of Rust support ez. If outnumbered you can always bring Fimir to support they are basically a halberd support unit.

    So in order to beat knight of the realm, cold one knights cold one spear riders kurnous riders, and reiksguard with skin wolves i have to bring a unit of fimirs to support them, making a grand total of 2150 gold to beat units that cost around 1000 gold. Sound super cost effective dude.

    You and Lotus seem so fond of test but know you know talk about ways to support the fight wich all factions have, and some of them way better than norsca.

    Please can you run a series of test of skin wolves vs:

    cold one knights
    knights of the realm
    reiksguard
    kurnous riders
    Cold one spear riders

    So people here can see how close to reality your statements are

  • ystyst Posts: 5,361Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Honestly if you're scared of something like Ellyrean Reavers with your Fimirs, you're not playing Norsca right.

    Lulz... already not playing right bringing fimirs vs helf
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,119Registered Users
    yst said:

    Green0 said:

    Honestly if you're scared of something like Ellyrean Reavers with your Fimirs, you're not playing Norsca right.

    Lulz... already not playing right bringing fimirs vs helf
    why? What can even contest them? They counter all Dragon play if used correctly and protect your Mammoths from them.
  • ystyst Posts: 5,361Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    why? What can even contest them? They counter all Dragon play if used correctly and protect your Mammoths from them.

    Thats $3400 right there or $3550 with 2h variant.

    More than enough funds to form a counter for those
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,095Registered Users
    How about femir gw are good vs he but also he can kite norsca? Everyone is right and wrong, kumbajaaah.
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