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Idea for WH3 turn times

HerrickHerrick Posts: 173Registered Users
There should be an option for Max number of factions (normal number of factions) and a Minimal number of factions.
My idea for a "minimal" number means that factions start with more territories (like 3-4) so that there would be less minor factions, therefore a faster turn time.

You guys think that this would be a good idea for this future huge map?

Comments

  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,195Registered Users
    edited June 12
    I don't see how this would help with anything. The problem isn't factions, it's regions.

    A giant bloc faction would just spend the same amount of time managing armies and settlements as if it were made up of smaller factions occupying the same space.

    And then there's the immense game balance problem, some factions are critical to preventing others from steamrolling. Whatever this arbitrary limitation and reduction is, it would eventually be something like having Mannfred owning the lands of Duftbar, or the Von Carsteins, etc.

    It's not like the old Total War games where there were grey Rebel armies between major factions.

    Then there's the fact that you just have late-game starts, which then becomes boring bloc parties, just like in Rome2's Empire Divided campaign, where everybody has already chosen sides and you just have boring big fights with zero proxy wars.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • BetoBotBetoBot Posts: 244Registered Users
    The best idea is a already invented idea: go to age of wonders 2 synchronized turns.. While you are playing the IA is also playing. YES that means that when you click on end turn you have to move quickly the army you are being running off...

    That will only be useful in single player when the IA can autoresolve everything except your battles...
  • uriakuriak Posts: 3,416Registered Users
    We don't know exactly what the cost of calculation are. So we can't really know if mini factions put together take more time than large ones. I'd have a hunch multiple armies and ennemies makes the complexity exponential, hard to say.?

    What is the ratio of time lost to pure CPU shenanigans vs some camera/diplomacy moments ? Unknown, too.
  • LoffenmeisterLoffenmeister Posts: 87Registered Users
    I dont see that really working out. Im guessing you will have to live with the "vortex" style map in WH3 if you hate turn times that bad. My best guess is they will be able to make it abaout as sluggish as Mortal Empires turn times at best and to be honest im fine with that and really dont get all the people complaining abaout the turn times, but they might be running off HDDs or 5 year old slow ssds. Mabe a SSD upgrade would help with turn times for people? Im running a NVME and have at max 1 min turntimes in lategame me.
  • MarkerMarker Posts: 759Registered Users
    Herrick said:

    There should be an option for Max number of factions (normal number of factions) and a Minimal number of factions.
    My idea for a "minimal" number means that factions start with more territories (like 3-4) so that there would be less minor factions, therefore a faster turn time.

    You guys think that this would be a good idea for this future huge map?

    The only thing that would work is all legendary factions and every race has a minor faction and have a lot of ruins and start with a province or more.

    Or u could play Warhammer 1, Vortex and in the Future the Campaign of Warhammer 3.

    I rather have more patience and more to work with and speed it up with a faster PC or something.

    But being able to choose which factions and the rest would be ruins is fine with me as a Custom campaign mode.
  • uriakuriak Posts: 3,416Registered Users
    Honestly, I'm annoyed because there are quite a few game 1 factions I've yet to try (or retry post changes) but then the horrible turns kick in and I give up. I miss being able to do an old world only campaign.
  • SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior Member ChilePosts: 599Registered Users
    I still can't find any issue with turn times...When I start a new campaign, and all the factions are present....they have so little armies and settlements that the turns last less than 45 secs.

    Then, in mid game, a lot of factions are not present but you can see more in the map, the turn times are practically the same.

    In late game, you have military alliances, you can see a lot of factions but there are just a few of them.....the turn times are the same lol.

    Buy a SSD, is the best solution..
  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Posts: 516Registered Users
    I guess that could work for some people. Myself, I don't ever want to trade less factions for quicker end turn times.
  • markusasmarkusas Posts: 35Registered Users
    The best way to speed up turn times is load them in multithread nstead of just single thread. Scale it as much as possible, more cores = more factions can be loaded almost simultaneously
  • psychoakpsychoak Posts: 2,248Registered Users
    Yes, turn times are essentially a product of nearly idle modern processors with 4+ cores, running a single thread.

    Making them massively faster is a matter of making the AI asynchronous, which is not a simple matter, programming wise, but utterly necessary.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 2,975Registered Users
    There are a lot of ways to speed up times by a smidge or by a lot. Factions are not entirely the worst part of it. Even if I think the piece of 8 factions can bugger off in ME. But yeah, I can't imagine it being factions as my turn times certainly do not get any better after I've murdered the continent around me, and other factions then dominate their lands. In fact, they're usually a lot quicker at the start. I'd hazard to guess the greater processing goes to individual choices by volumes of units. What does that army do, what does that hero do. So yeah, those many officers running around performing delay actions probably cost more than the simple act of a faction existing. To which a larger money powered HE or Dwarfs are fielding far more of mid and late game.

    First really, there just needs to be a lot of optimization. We've gotten some real spaghetti code in the works now and some of it needs to be cleaned up. This goes to near everything from the AI behaviors, how the maps shift, and the like. There is a lot of things under this hood that are bogging it down.

    More options to just trim stuff during turn times. What you see, what speed it does it, loads of things I might not really care about. Including denying diplomacy based on conditions you set. At war? DON'T CARE. Anything from WoC? Don't care. Or are they offering trade? Sure, lets talk.

  • JadawinKhanidiJadawinKhanidi Posts: 684Registered Users

    I dont see that really working out. Im guessing you will have to live with the "vortex" style map in WH3 if you hate turn times that bad. My best guess is they will be able to make it abaout as sluggish as Mortal Empires turn times at best and to be honest im fine with that and really dont get all the people complaining abaout the turn times, but they might be running off HDDs or 5 year old slow ssds. Mabe a SSD upgrade would help with turn times for people? Im running a NVME and have at max 1 min turntimes in lategame me.

    Is this 1 minute in late-game just a subjective guess or have you actually used a stopwatch?

    In any case, SSD has nothing to do with it. Which CPU do you have? I get >2 minute turn times in late game, using a SSD. But my CPU is not the fastest. If I could get down to 1 minute, that would be a massive improvement.
  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Posts: 773Registered Users
    Async faction turns (and thus multithreaded) is not really a step forward as long as factions have to take their turns in order. You're not really gaining anything on having different cores do this when job 4 cannot start until job 3 has concluded because the starting state for job 4 is simply not known until that time.

  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Posts: 516Registered Users

    I dont see that really working out. Im guessing you will have to live with the "vortex" style map in WH3 if you hate turn times that bad. My best guess is they will be able to make it abaout as sluggish as Mortal Empires turn times at best and to be honest im fine with that and really dont get all the people complaining abaout the turn times, but they might be running off HDDs or 5 year old slow ssds. Mabe a SSD upgrade would help with turn times for people? Im running a NVME and have at max 1 min turntimes in lategame me.

    Is this 1 minute in late-game just a subjective guess or have you actually used a stopwatch?

    In any case, SSD has nothing to do with it. Which CPU do you have? I get >2 minute turn times in late game, using a SSD. But my CPU is not the fastest. If I could get down to 1 minute, that would be a massive improvement.
    CPU is a massive factor. My "experiment" only touches clock speeds, but going from stock clocks on an FX-4170 (4.3GHz) to my overclock (4.95GHz) cut the load times dramatically. I had tried going to an SSD (As I heard good things about it), but it didn't seem to make a difference in end turn times, only in the initial load.
  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Posts: 4,122Registered Users

    I dont see that really working out. Im guessing you will have to live with the "vortex" style map in WH3 if you hate turn times that bad. My best guess is they will be able to make it abaout as sluggish as Mortal Empires turn times at best and to be honest im fine with that and really dont get all the people complaining abaout the turn times, but they might be running off HDDs or 5 year old slow ssds. Mabe a SSD upgrade would help with turn times for people? Im running a NVME and have at max 1 min turntimes in lategame me.

    Is this 1 minute in late-game just a subjective guess or have you actually used a stopwatch?

    In any case, SSD has nothing to do with it. Which CPU do you have? I get >2 minute turn times in late game, using a SSD. But my CPU is not the fastest. If I could get down to 1 minute, that would be a massive improvement.
    CPU is a massive factor. My "experiment" only touches clock speeds, but going from stock clocks on an FX-4170 (4.3GHz) to my overclock (4.95GHz) cut the load times dramatically. I had tried going to an SSD (As I heard good things about it), but it didn't seem to make a difference in end turn times, only in the initial load.
    Yeah SSD isn't going to help much with turn times, but the loading of the game and battles and the like? That's where that pays off.
    I am incredibly mad and angry at whatever someone insinuated could possibly, but not likely, happen in the WH series today and CA must answer for this with an explanation of why they might possibly, but didn't do this!!!
  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Posts: 601Registered Users
    Maybe a solution would be to have some areas of the map not interact with each other. For example: order of loremasters can play only in Lustria, can't have diplomacy with people in Araby, Ulthuan, Naggaroth etc. Make them already start with Trade Agreements and Alliances with people outside their playground, according to what fits the lore obviously. This way you can process all the minor factions from different continents simultaneously. One thread calculates all the factions that are on the same continent. Example: one thread calculates lustria, one araby, one naggaroth, one ulthuan, one the northern part of the old world etc.

    The downside is that we would never see interactions between new world and old world races. To solve this issue, maybe some factions could be allowed to have the whole map as their playground. These factions would be processed on a single thread, before all the simultaneous minor factions calculations happen. These factions should be as few as possible. Good choices for "world-spanning factions" would be the main factions in my opinion: Lothern, Nagggarond, Hexoatl, Clan Moors, The Empire etc., NOT sub-factions like order of loremasters, cult of pleasure etc.

    So, this is what would happen:
    step 1: calculate all the "world spanning factions" (only one thread is used)
    step 2: calculate simultaneously minor factions (each continent is calculated on a separate thread, all continents are calculated simultaneously)
    step 3: player's turn.

    To have some more replayabilty, the "world spanning factions" could be chosen randomly at the start of each campaign, but I think that they should never be more than one sub-faction per race.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 2,975Registered Users
    People are still missing the big giant glaring issue that there is less turn time when there are more factions at the start, but significantly longer later game when there are less factions but significantly more individual armies and units.

    It's the individual armies and heros making their move decisions that are significantly more contribution to resource use.
  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Posts: 516Registered Users
    Nyxilis said:

    People are still missing the big giant glaring issue that there is less turn time when there are more factions at the start, but significantly longer later game when there are less factions but significantly more individual armies and units.

    It's the individual armies and heros making their move decisions that are significantly more contribution to resource use.

    Is that what happens with yours? In my experience turn times definitely improve late game.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 2,975Registered Users

    Nyxilis said:

    People are still missing the big giant glaring issue that there is less turn time when there are more factions at the start, but significantly longer later game when there are less factions but significantly more individual armies and units.

    It's the individual armies and heros making their move decisions that are significantly more contribution to resource use.

    Is that what happens with yours? In my experience turn times definitely improve late game.
    Not even remotely for me, much shorter right then and there with the start times with all the factions alive it will never be faster. Only in super late game where I've murdered 90% of all other armies and factions do I start to see the drops. Mid game with the larger number of armies and heros is when it's at its worse.
  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Posts: 516Registered Users
    Nyxilis said:

    Nyxilis said:

    People are still missing the big giant glaring issue that there is less turn time when there are more factions at the start, but significantly longer later game when there are less factions but significantly more individual armies and units.

    It's the individual armies and heros making their move decisions that are significantly more contribution to resource use.

    Is that what happens with yours? In my experience turn times definitely improve late game.
    Not even remotely for me, much shorter right then and there with the start times with all the factions alive it will never be faster. Only in super late game where I've murdered 90% of all other armies and factions do I start to see the drops. Mid game with the larger number of armies and heros is when it's at its worse.
    Hmm... Just started a new campaign, I'll pay more attention this time. But I could swear the game tends to speed up more and more as more and more factions die off.
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