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The Green Knight !

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  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,402Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    He has a good matchup vs dwarfs for sure, and then for other races I don't think it's fair to always assume you're going to be facing death magic, particularly vs empire. And on the flip side brettonia can always plan to bring life magic so there's more upside than downside.

    Basically, brettonia has a very limited roster in terms of unit types but can still go wide and give themselves another avenue to win through ethereal end-gaming and still field a pretty strong army.

    He's pricey enough that you could afford to make him cheaper as that's not going to be game-breaking even if you push it too far.

    But making his stats or abilities to avoid his weaknesses would be a big problem since then you have the classic unit that can't be caught, can't be shot, and you either brought direct damage spells / magic attacks or you can't kill him. That's bad design.

    The proposed change would be a verminous valour that recharge in melee, so he would need to stick into melee for a while before getting out. The thing is even if he survives the entire game he struggles to make his cost back. Because when he gets stuck in infantry he fight them for a really long time and doesnt get a lot of value. Using healing can be good, but you are simply putting even more moeny and ressources in him which as we have pointed out is hard to make back.


  • another505another505 Posts: 1,073Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    eumaies said:

    He has a good matchup vs dwarfs for sure, and then for other races I don't think it's fair to always assume you're going to be facing death magic, particularly vs empire. And on the flip side brettonia can always plan to bring life magic so there's more upside than downside.

    Basically, brettonia has a very limited roster in terms of unit types but can still go wide and give themselves another avenue to win through ethereal end-gaming and still field a pretty strong army.

    He's pricey enough that you could afford to make him cheaper as that's not going to be game-breaking even if you push it too far.

    But making his stats or abilities to avoid his weaknesses would be a big problem since then you have the classic unit that can't be caught, can't be shot, and you either brought direct damage spells / magic attacks or you can't kill him. That's bad design.

    I wouldn't call him good vs dwarfs. He's "good" in the sense that dwarfs cant kill him quickly(unless grombi is on the field, since hes a pretty common pick in that MU), the problem is that he can't kill the dwarfs particularly quickly either, so you're better off putting another squad of hippogryphs on the field.

    Empire might have hammer of witches, silver bullets, fireball, final transmutation etc, so the risk of bringing him into that matchup is pretty huge, and once again, you're probably better off coughing up the cash for far more consistent hippogryphs.
    this

    besides, he really need to kill a lot to make that cost back... what, 1 giant slayer and a thunderer just for base cost.
    also, multiple runesmith and runelord could take him out easy with rune of wrath and ruin
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users
    The Green Knight is comparable to Tyrion, but you trade 55% resist for slightly better stats/speed. HP is actually similar.

    In theory that means he is balanced. I highly doubt runes would do that much damage to single entity.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 920Registered Users
    Problem with greenknight is twofold.

    He doesn't have mass/flying, so if the enemy wants to play "protect the Lord" it's really easy to bog him down in chaff.

    He also doesn't hurt infantry quickly, so he will never pay himself off if he isn't diving heroes. Also, unlike an unbreakable steam tank, the GK isn't really a win condition since base tier infantry will eventually catch and grind him down.

    That puts him in an awkward place where unless he can snipe a Lord or monster, it's basically impossible to generate real value with him.
  • another505another505 Posts: 1,073Registered Users
    edited June 14

    The Green Knight is comparable to Tyrion, but you trade 55% resist for slightly better stats/speed. HP is actually similar.

    In theory that means he is balanced. I highly doubt runes would do that much damage to single entity.

    he isnt
    tyrion has better speed, AOE dmg, self heal, ability to buff troops

    green knight is strictly combat.


    And that self heal in woods is pretty useless unless the combat is in the woods, which is a debuff for him being large. It takes a few minutes for him to reheal in the woods which mean a 2200 unit doing nothing for the few minutes
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,362Registered Users

    The Green Knight is comparable to Tyrion, but you trade 55% resist for slightly better stats/speed. HP is actually similar.

    In theory that means he is balanced. I highly doubt runes would do that much damage to single entity.

    he isnt
    tyrion has better speed, AOE dmg, self heal, ability to buff troops

    green knight is strictly combat.
    This^ Tyrion also has sunfang, which can really sweep away chaff mobs.
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  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Posts: 929Registered Users
    Ok this might sound crazy but it seems he can't usually reach an enemy from which he can generate value, so what if he gets ...teleport? It could possibly work with current mechanics, take what alith anar does but instead of a duplicate, his old model gets destroyed and the new one is a normal one with the hp at the time of casting (in contrast with alith anar's which cant do dmg). It would need respectable range of course but also cd and perhaps charges.
  • another505another505 Posts: 1,073Registered Users

    Ok this might sound crazy but it seems he can't usually reach an enemy from which he can generate value, so what if he gets ...teleport? It could possibly work with current mechanics, take what alith anar does but instead of a duplicate, his old model gets destroyed and the new one is a normal one with the hp at the time of casting (in contrast with alith anar's which cant do dmg). It would need respectable range of course but also cd and perhaps charges.

    haha that sounds amazing!
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,402Registered Users

    The Green Knight is comparable to Tyrion, but you trade 55% resist for slightly better stats/speed. HP is actually similar.

    In theory that means he is balanced. I highly doubt runes would do that much damage to single entity.

    Tyrion has better items and abilities, especially sunfang which allows him to clesr out chaff and rack up a lot of kills. He is also 200 gold cheaper


  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,486Registered Users
    edited June 14

    Wyvern2 said:

    eumaies said:

    He has a good matchup vs dwarfs for sure, and then for other races I don't think it's fair to always assume you're going to be facing death magic, particularly vs empire. And on the flip side brettonia can always plan to bring life magic so there's more upside than downside.

    Basically, brettonia has a very limited roster in terms of unit types but can still go wide and give themselves another avenue to win through ethereal end-gaming and still field a pretty strong army.

    He's pricey enough that you could afford to make him cheaper as that's not going to be game-breaking even if you push it too far.

    But making his stats or abilities to avoid his weaknesses would be a big problem since then you have the classic unit that can't be caught, can't be shot, and you either brought direct damage spells / magic attacks or you can't kill him. That's bad design.

    I wouldn't call him good vs dwarfs. He's "good" in the sense that dwarfs cant kill him quickly(unless grombi is on the field, since hes a pretty common pick in that MU), the problem is that he can't kill the dwarfs particularly quickly either, so you're better off putting another squad of hippogryphs on the field.

    Empire might have hammer of witches, silver bullets, fireball, final transmutation etc, so the risk of bringing him into that matchup is pretty huge, and once again, you're probably better off coughing up the cash for far more consistent hippogryphs.
    this

    besides, he really need to kill a lot to make that cost back... what, 1 giant slayer and a thunderer just for base cost.
    also, multiple runesmith and runelord could take him out easy with rune of wrath and ruin
    If you can't kill him he wins (and yes, incidentally makes his price back as the rest of your army terror routs). And he gets his value by methodically killing characters and then anything else that faces him. Nothing complicated about it, it just takes 10 minutes to watch him do it.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,486Registered Users
    Also, FYI runesmith and runelord do nothing to him.

    The point is that the green knight is just poorly designed. He costs a ton and is unkillable by whole classes of units, and can (always) be paired with healing augmenting his unkillability.

    By all means make him more well rounded, but you'll have to reduce his ethereal reliance or he'll just be a game-breaking thing to face when you do face him.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,402Registered Users
    edited June 14
    eumaies said:

    Also, FYI runesmith and runelord do nothing to him.

    The point is that the green knight is just poorly designed. He costs a ton and is unkillable by whole classes of units, and can (always) be paired with healing augmenting his unkillability.

    By all means make him more well rounded, but you'll have to reduce his ethereal reliance or he'll just be a game-breaking thing to face when you do face him.

    As I said, reducing his ethereal to 55%, getting him HP up to 3600 would be pretty good, making him less tanky to normal units, but less vulnerablento magic.

    He is not invulnerable to an entire class of unit, a single unit of giant slayer can kill him, a single unit of slayer can take him down. Grombrindal can anihilate him, with the runesmith you can get the magic resustance of your army up to 40% reducing by 40% all his damage and the damage of Units like Grail knights. Peak gate guards will eat him alive. 2 units of longbeards will bogg him for around 9 min before killing him. He is not invulnerable to normal units at all. He barely get both of them to half HP. ( with his item he does better but still looses.) A single unit of hammerers trade evenly with him, winning around half the time.

    Ungrim ironfist alone can closely take him down even if he doesnt do magic damage.

    Most dwarf unit trade well with him he is easy to bog down. He cost an army and a leg, does clear out units quick, he is only strong in this MU if you let him go where he want and kill your runesmiths, which is at least one of the rare way to shut down a runesmith since they are extremely tanky.
    Post edited by AIMA_Dracklor on


  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,486Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    Also, FYI runesmith and runelord do nothing to him.

    The point is that the green knight is just poorly designed. He costs a ton and is unkillable by whole classes of units, and can (always) be paired with healing augmenting his unkillability.

    By all means make him more well rounded, but you'll have to reduce his ethereal reliance or he'll just be a game-breaking thing to face when you do face him.

    As I said, reducing his ethereal to 55%, getting him HP up to 3600 would be pretty good, making him less tanky to normal units, but less vulnerablento magic.

    He is not invulnerable to an entire class of unit, a single unit of giant slayer can kill him, a single unit of slayer can take him down. Grombrindal can anihilate him, with the runesmith you can get the magic resustance of your army up to 40% reducing by 40% all his damage and the damage of Units like Grail knights. Peak gate guards will eat him alive. 2 units of longbeards will bogg him for around 9 min before killing him. He is not invulnerable to normal units at all. He barely get both of them to half HP. ( with his item he does better but still looses.) A single unit of hammerers trade evenly with him, winning around half the time.

    Ungrim ironfist alone can closely take him down even if he doesnt do magic damage.

    Most dwarf unit trade well with him he is easy to bog down. He cost an army and a leg, does clear out units quick, he is only strong in this MU if you let him go where he want and kill your runesmiths, which is at least one of the rare way to shut down a runesmith since they are extremely tanky.
    Well I don't mind your suggestion so we're not disagreeing there.

    On the details of the matchup, the way you would normally use him is to cut down wounded units in the late game after killing lords and war machines in the early game. In a late game scenario tattered units aren't going to bog him down and in an early game scenario he has the mobility to just never be engaged against a regular unit.

    But regardless yeah if he were cheaper and less extremely ethereal he'd be more viable and less mini-max to use in alot of matchups.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,402Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:

    Also, FYI runesmith and runelord do nothing to him.

    The point is that the green knight is just poorly designed. He costs a ton and is unkillable by whole classes of units, and can (always) be paired with healing augmenting his unkillability.

    By all means make him more well rounded, but you'll have to reduce his ethereal reliance or he'll just be a game-breaking thing to face when you do face him.

    As I said, reducing his ethereal to 55%, getting him HP up to 3600 would be pretty good, making him less tanky to normal units, but less vulnerablento magic.

    He is not invulnerable to an entire class of unit, a single unit of giant slayer can kill him, a single unit of slayer can take him down. Grombrindal can anihilate him, with the runesmith you can get the magic resustance of your army up to 40% reducing by 40% all his damage and the damage of Units like Grail knights. Peak gate guards will eat him alive. 2 units of longbeards will bogg him for around 9 min before killing him. He is not invulnerable to normal units at all. He barely get both of them to half HP. ( with his item he does better but still looses.) A single unit of hammerers trade evenly with him, winning around half the time.

    Ungrim ironfist alone can closely take him down even if he doesnt do magic damage.

    Most dwarf unit trade well with him he is easy to bog down. He cost an army and a leg, does clear out units quick, he is only strong in this MU if you let him go where he want and kill your runesmiths, which is at least one of the rare way to shut down a runesmith since they are extremely tanky.
    Well I don't mind your suggestion so we're not disagreeing there.

    On the details of the matchup, the way you would normally use him is to cut down wounded units in the late game after killing lords and war machines in the early game. In a late game scenario tattered units aren't going to bog him down and in an early game scenario he has the mobility to just never be engaged against a regular unit.

    But regardless yeah if he were cheaper and less extremely ethereal he'd be more viable and less mini-max to use in alot of matchups.
    Yeah I agree, I just wanted to point out that he isnt unkillable from normal units, but I understand the matchup, as a longtime dwarf player it can be extremely anoying, though at least DF are pretty resistant to terror and such.



  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,402Registered Users
    P.s. hey just want to thank everyone who engaged in this discussion, it has been a civile discussion without any personnal insults which has become rare on this subforum !



  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 572Registered Users

    The Green Knight is comparable to Tyrion, but you trade 55% resist for slightly better stats/speed. HP is actually similar.

    In theory that means he is balanced. I highly doubt runes would do that much damage to single entity.

    Tyrion has better items and abilities, especially sunfang which allows him to clesr out chaff and rack up a lot of kills. He is also 200 gold cheaper
    Respectfully, Tyrion is an LL and should in my opinion thus have better items and stats than GK. In addition, GK has phys resist.

    Nevertheless, i do believe GK needs help, i just disagree with the comparison, not the OP. :smile:
  • ystyst Posts: 6,162Registered Users
    I dont think his price has ever been touch since 2016 has it? Last time i made one on him, hes still $1900 base no changes to him a yr prior which is 2016

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/208835/green-knight-overpriced-intentional/p1

    He needs vig to start with, dont know why bret faction mechanic is so inconsistent. He of all the grails should have it. Hes pretty much done at exhaustion vs any unit half way thru. Hes not even unique tbh, tyrion is significantly better than him and just cost so damn much cheaper and better.

    So much to learn from the design of damned paladin, a mini green which is less than half the costs
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  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users
    It should have gotten vigor immune, other than that it has higher AP than Tyrion and terror, it is not as underpowered as stated so far.

    It may not win against what Bretonnia would be at a disadvantage against anyway, but it can do a key performance.

    Paladin is weak compared to Green Knight.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,486Registered Users
    edited June 14

    P.s. hey just want to thank everyone who engaged in this discussion, it has been a civile discussion without any personnal insults which has become rare on this subforum !

    well then screw you! :)
  • another505another505 Posts: 1,073Registered Users
    edited June 14
    I did suggest to revert back to old green knight with 40 armor and lower phys resistance so hes better in most mu and opponents can fight back better too.

    Even after this, he needs the stuff we suggested before


    To eumaies
    Just a question, i dont really play dwarves but why dont they bring 8 peak guards. They rekt anything bret brings. Magic attack, huge AP
    Could also help against green knight if he does appear
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,374Registered Users


    Just a question, i dont really play dwarves but why dont they bring 8 peak guards.

    You think Fay would not be able to drain all of them?
  • another505another505 Posts: 1,073Registered Users
    tank3487 said:


    Just a question, i dont really play dwarves but why dont they bring 8 peak guards.

    You think Fay would not be able to drain all of them?
    You think i want to leave fay in it? Even with the magic resistance.
    Not to mention the huge dawi firepower on her if she stays in combat
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,486Registered Users
    edited June 14

    tank3487 said:


    Just a question, i dont really play dwarves but why dont they bring 8 peak guards.

    You think Fay would not be able to drain all of them?
    You think i want to leave fay in it? Even with the magic resistance.
    Not to mention the huge dawi firepower on her if she stays in combat
    Fay is good vs elites, but also any cavalry will kill almost any infantry if given the right angles and enough cycle charging. Typically in a matchup vs cavalry you have to protect your ranged or get picked apart eventually.

    I'm not saying it's a hard matchup or anything for dwarfs, and elite units can be quite good in the matchup. But just to answer your question elite peak gate guard are vulnerable to cycle charging and cheap archers (or cheap squires with buffs) and elite units limit your ability to protect ranged units and can waste their time bogged down with chaff if you're not careful.
  • VistahmVistahm Posts: 240Registered Users
    The green knight is way too expensive for what it brings to the table.

    He is never worth it imo, and need at least an important price decrease .

    Tyrion sucks so saying that he is more or less like Tyrion actually means he also sucks.
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  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,402Registered Users
    tank3487 said:


    Just a question, i dont really play dwarves but why dont they bring 8 peak guards.

    You think Fay would not be able to drain all of them?
    Fey wouldnt last long in melee with them, or you can just shoot her to death


  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,486Registered Users

    tank3487 said:


    Just a question, i dont really play dwarves but why dont they bring 8 peak guards.

    You think Fay would not be able to drain all of them?
    Fey wouldnt last long in melee with them, or you can just shoot her to death
    I recently had a game where I took all elites including the peak gate guard and the fay killed more than 150 of them. I still won though ;) my mistake was sending more than one unit in her aura at a time.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,402Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    tank3487 said:


    Just a question, i dont really play dwarves but why dont they bring 8 peak guards.

    You think Fay would not be able to drain all of them?
    Fey wouldnt last long in melee with them, or you can just shoot her to death
    I recently had a game where I took all elites including the peak gate guard and the fay killed more than 150 of them. I still won though ;) my mistake was sending more than one unit in her aura at a time.
    Oh yeah her mortis engine effect is suprisingly strong, I often forget it even when I play Bret


  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 351Registered Users
    I vote:
    - Mass to 1100 in line with other heavy cav.
    - -50 gold.
    - Trade the 'regen in the woods' ability, which is often useless and sometimes extremely OP, for a free passive Forest Strider ability like WE.
  • Pussy_WarriorPussy_Warrior Posts: 18Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    He still has his uses, you can vanguard deploy him in a forest and keep a drawkite in your back pocket just in case.

    I really hope u r joking, only losers draw kite. U dont deserve a draw if u lose ur whole army and u run away with ur lord/fast unit to get a draw.
    Drawkiting just make people quit MP altogheter why u still encourage this bad behaviour?
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,402Registered Users

    OrkLads said:

    He still has his uses, you can vanguard deploy him in a forest and keep a drawkite in your back pocket just in case.

    I really hope u r joking, only losers draw kite. U dont deserve a draw if u lose ur whole army and u run away with ur lord/fast unit to get a draw.
    Drawkiting just make people quit MP altogheter why u still encourage this bad behaviour?
    It was sarcasm ahah, he explained it later, but I felt the same it wasnt si clear 😂


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