Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Vampire Coast - A Retrospective

WaaaghCheifWaaaghCheif Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 1,903




Legendary Lords

Luthor Harkon
He is the star of the show. His unique animations and voice acting is absolutely marvelous. And I think his unique quest to restore his mind in the campaign is a step to right direction when it comes to the mixing of the sandbox of total war and the narrative of Warhammer. What would be really amazing if they went the extra mile, after completing the quest giving him a more sane voice lines and less fidgety animations.


Count Noctilus
I love his appearance in the game. Tanky Halberdier, even though I consider that he should be more closer to his Dreadfleet rendition. (Rapier instead of Halberd, more blue skin.) But I have nothing against it really.

Should probably have a dilemma with his heirtage, the Von Carsteins or Luthor Harkon, or at least establish what his diplomatic relations.


Aranessa Saltspite
Oh boy, here we go. First let me say I have nothing against her addition to the game. But every decision making about her is mind boggling. CA could have avoided sooo much headache with her.

First off the Sartosan Roster, I don't believe it takes so much resources to kit-bash Free Company, Artillery and Swordsmen to make room for a jolly pirate units.

Speaking of the roster, considering her epilogue, I find it so extremely disappointing, they could have made her a good narrative campaign. She is a "Child of Manaan", Manaans chosen. But since she started reluctantly adding zombies and Vampires to her crew she loses Manaans favor, and hears the voices calling, Stormfels, Evil and rival god of Manaan.

Her campaign could have been a chain of dilemmas where you chose to pirate with your Sartosan crews or reluctantly seek the dark powers of the vampires. Slowly but surely losing your ability to recruit living units and being replaced with the Undead. Making a good and bad ending possible. Giving huge replayablity as well.


Cylostra Direfin
I'm still inbetween about her addtion. Vangheist I don't think would add much to the game, that isn't provided by Aranessa and Luthor, role wise. And they needed a spellcaster, her design is interesting. Obviously a quite a lot of love when into making her, voice acting and animation wise.

With the race coming with the bloodlines update, I just think it's shame the fourth LL was not a Necarch, think about it Necarchs are Vampire Counts pure Wizard Lords. A Necarch Pirate LL would have been awesome, and lorewise there is one going after the Ulthuan Waystones. A Bretonnian Necarch Wizard Vampirate LL, Louis Cypher. He fits everything Cylostra does, but a bit better and would do more for the bigger picture. His base model could also been made into the Bloodline Necarch.

Just something I thought should be brought out there.


The Campaign

The Narrative
CA have outdone themselves when it came to the cinematic, the animation and art is stunning. The Vampire Coast intros are easily my favorites. I also love that going forward that there is more focus on the factions rather than the races as a whole. I always feel that the Lord Packs Lords deserve their small appearance in the Vortex intro of the main races as well.

Despite the Eye of the Vortexs best effort, I felt that I played more of a story in the Vampire Coast with the cinematics and the hunting of the weapon and Amanar.


Offices
I don't know why, but it is clear that CA wants to make The Empire petty by giving both Wood Elves and Vampire Coasts a better Office titles and bonuses than they have. When the Empire update comes maybe... My only gripe with the Offices is it's UI, please make the Lords icons bigger, use the circular one from the Diplomacy screen, the current is for ants, using the Rectangular Army Lord Icon is so dull.

Infamy - The Big Bad
Now here comes my biggest gripe with the Vampire Coast, INFAMY. Yes! On the Faction select screen, Infamy is point to their faction uniqueness, but there is nothing special about it. It does nothing! It is a number that goes up and down, it is something the player doesn't have to care about. You cant do anything with it, when you pass a certain threshold, the "legendary pirate rivals" makes a b line for your army. Its very easy to cheese, you can sit in your capital waiting for them to siege.

I would like to see this changed to something substantial. I don't know what, I've seen a mod that turns your infamy to a forging currency. Not so sure about that, but it is certainly better.

Pieces of Eight
Pieces of Eight and Treasure Maps is a good addition in that makes the map more active, nothing more to say about it really.

Island Battles
Island Battles and Black Arks battles were introduced with the update, while I'm glad for the option to not auto resolve, I think CA could pull a bit more effort on them. Seeing the factions ships in the distance, Black Arks being more defensible, going out to the side edge of a Black Ark seems meh.

Ship Battles (Not Naval)
A pipe dream, but I thought with the addition of the "Legendary" ships we could see a "Ship Battle" not a naval battle. A boarding battle, at least when Two of the Legendary Lords fight a battle at sea. The ships are supposedly large anyway, so I myself wouldn't bat an eye seeing the Necrofex Colossi on each side of a ship.


Ship Horde
The Shipbuilding is nice, but I think and it seems logically you should only get the ships bonuses, when you actually are on the ship. Or in the owned province with a coastal settlement. Your horde growth is fast as it is, and recruiting a almost 10 stack in foreign territory but not using raise dead? Unbalanced.


Campaign Ending
I loved the twist of having Lokhir Fellheart (A topic for another thread) the villain. But after his battle, we see a cinematic where he is supposedly beheaded. (You can make the arguement that you just stole his helmet) and celebrating, and you're off the resurrect Amanar.

Post Cinematic, Lokhir sits as The Blessed Dreads faction leader. I think CA could finally add some consequences to Quest Battles or at least Final Quest Battles. Lokhir could "disappear" from the campaign Map after the completing, a random DE Lord take his place as faction leader. I don't think this would be much of a loss, since you are not gonna be able to play him anyway as Vcoast, and it would some immersion that the quest battles matter.

Also would adding Amanar/ or any undead Merwyrm as a End Game Campaign Only Unit really be so dumb? Amanar's significance was played up so big only to let us down with the reward being avoiding repairing some coastal settlements occasionally .



Agree or disagree with my concerns of the Undead Coastal Raiders? Discuss!


Tagged:
«1

Comments

  • SschmidtSSschmidtS Registered Users Posts: 11
    👏👏👏👏👍
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,654
    Infamy needs to be fixed in asmuch that you actually have to do stuff to earn it and can't just passively harvest it from coves...secret coves no one is even supposed to know about (so, not very infamous things in the first place). Then they need to make the vampire pirates to be actually about piracy instead of landlocked empires. Especially doing so shouldn't be the most efficient way to play them, thanks to the percentage-based income increase of the main-settlement income building! That's one of the things that vexes me to no end.

  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,016
    Luthor is ok. Noctilus looks worse than his art depiction, his face is more human than not and his shoulder spikes are not sea themed. Overall I like them both with Count being my favourite.

    Manlinessa Testospite wears a face of a man and her eccentric makeup is gone. Also she leads vampires instead of humans and sea themed mutants. No thank you.

    Lipostra Whalefin.. someone deliver her to Bundry Rothwild. Terribly written, uninspiring and atrocious looking bloat-thing. At least she comes with a white knight summon, CA got that right.

    New magic lore is visually pretty, I like it.

    Units are really good when it comes to looks. Not enough different types of monsters, I'm really disappointed. Syreens should have new models and Terrorgheists, Dogs and Bats sea themed accents.

    Also there is no male captain hero.

    Solid 6/10
    animacja-sygn-3.gif


  • Federykx99Federykx99 Registered Users Posts: 562
    A retrospective on VP: we should have gotten Araby or Southern Realms.
    But I don't hate them for that.

    The best thing that could have ever happened to that DLC is Cylostra. Not only a precedent for original stuff, but it's also hilarious to watch lore purists lose their mind over her and try to find reasons to bash her.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,654

    A retrospective on VP: we should have gotten Araby or Southern Realms.
    But I don't hate them for that.

    The best thing that could have ever happened to that DLC is Cylostra. Not only a precedent for original stuff, but it's also hilarious to watch lore purists lose their mind over her and try to find reasons to bash her.

    VCoast from the TT had only Luthor Harkon as a named character and Dreadfleet, which they picked the rest from, was, like, only bought by five or so guys, so I'd argue this isn't actually a problem for "purists" since Cylostra has now actually more lore to herself (written by the writer of Dreadfleet to boot) than most of the other Dreadfleet characters.

  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 10,795
    All dlc races for wh2 (we are talking over 2 years unless CA releases a new non undead race before end of september) have been undead.

    And what kind of undead? Well Tomb Kings is a proper faction. Vampire coast is tiny. Smaller than a pure slayer list for dwarfs.

    Ignoring all that the content was well made but all that rotten flesh smells.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 10,395
    edited June 2019
    If you thought that Aranessa, being in VP race, would be capable of a good ending, you're out of your mind. The moment she was made part of their roster it was immediately apparent that she was going down a dark path. Seriously, Manann is a god worshipped by humans, the good kind of humans. He had no justification for aligning with undead and it's pretty apparent that it was Stromfels straight from the start that was manipulating Aranessa. You can't have both Manann and Stromfels allied with the same undead, they're diametrical opposites.

    If anything it is Aranessa that shouldn't have come and Vangheist that would have made sense in her stead, even taking her role on the battlefield. Then you have 2 vampires and 2 ghosts, if nothing else it would make Cylostra seem to fit in with the rest.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • FungusHoundFungusHound Registered Users Posts: 4,745
    I would honestly prefer new characters over either characters crammed in where they don't belong or random vampires nobody knew about until the Coast was announced. I wouldn't have minded if we had replaced Aranessa with a Son of Stromfels because SHARKMAN.

    What I think would have been truly amazing is to have living and undead pirates. Harkon and Noctilus vs Aranessa and Long Drong to balance Main and Dreadfleet. Hell I would have been happy with no Dreadfleet and have gotten an OC living and an OC undead LL.
  • WaaaghCheifWaaaghCheif Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,903
    edited June 2019


    Crossil said:


    Seriously, Manann is a god worshipped by humans, the good kind of humans. He had no justification for aligning with undead and it's pretty apparent that it was Stromfels straight from the start that was manipulating Aranessa. You can't have both Manann and Stromfels allied with the same undead

    That's what I'm saying, I just wanted this manipulation of Stromfels more apparent in the game. Going down the Vampire path would slowly lock out the living part of the roster and you could only recruit exclusive undead units. So you chose Manaan or Stromfels. Or don't give the player a choice, the living roster just slowly becomes smaller, thus showing representing Aranessa distancing herself from the living crew and the growing influence of Stromfels and the Undead.

    If CA just made her a vampire, which she becomes in one Dreadfleet scenario, it would be much more set in stone.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,654
    There was no way CA would essentially make two full rosters for one campaign pack, people expecting it were just again letting the hype run away with them.

  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Registered Users Posts: 1,005
    I don't like Cylostra at all. To me she looks so out of place in the warhammer world. When I click on her on the diplomacy screen, her voice annoys me. I would have preferred to not to have her and have a complete living roster for Aranessa, maybe also a price increase: I can understand that an entire roster might cost more than a single lord. Luthor and Noctilus are very good though. Noctilus in particular is very fun to play.
  • WaaaghCheifWaaaghCheif Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,903

    There was no way CA would essentially make two full rosters for one campaign pack, people expecting it were just again letting the hype run away with them.

    Im not saying that, the existing units, and living versions of the artillery (which are in the game). Not a fully fledged roster, a barebones one just stand on its own feets for the first few turns until Stormfels influence creeps in.
  • SephlockSephlock Registered Users Posts: 2,469


    The best thing that could have ever happened to that DLC is Cylostra. Not only a precedent for original stuff, but it's also hilarious to watch lore purists lose their mind over her and try to find reasons to bash her.

    Because there's just no valid reason to dislike a character?
    #JusticeForUshoran #RuneGolems #RuneGuardians #ShardDragons #Thunderbarges #Stormfiends #BigMonsters #MoreDakka
  • FungusHoundFungusHound Registered Users Posts: 4,745
    Sephlock said:


    The best thing that could have ever happened to that DLC is Cylostra. Not only a precedent for original stuff, but it's also hilarious to watch lore purists lose their mind over her and try to find reasons to bash her.

    Because there's just no valid reason to dislike a character?
    Oh I understand people who just don't like her design or who are utter lore purists. But I find the people who read too much into the inclusion to be hilarious and likewise the hypocrisy of the people who wail about lore accuracy and then turn around and discuss how some minor faction desperately needs to be in the game.

    Seriously I will never fail to find amusement with people who think Cylostra is some secret agenda to add fat females to video games and not just a natural goofy conclusion to the idea of a stereotypical opera singer would be a good choice for a named Syreen. Basically complete idiocy from those people though so I doubt most of the fan base falls into that category despite certain people on the forums.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,016
    edited June 2019

    Sephlock said:


    The best thing that could have ever happened to that DLC is Cylostra. Not only a precedent for original stuff, but it's also hilarious to watch lore purists lose their mind over her and try to find reasons to bash her.

    Because there's just no valid reason to dislike a character?
    Oh I understand people who just don't like her design or who are utter lore purists. But I find the people who read too much into the inclusion to be hilarious and likewise the hypocrisy of the people who wail about lore accuracy and then turn around and discuss how some minor faction desperately needs to be in the game.

    Seriously I will never fail to find amusement with people who think Cylostra is some secret agenda to add fat females to video games and not just a natural goofy conclusion to the idea of a stereotypical opera singer would be a good choice for a named Syreen. Basically complete idiocy from those people though so I doubt most of the fan base falls into that category despite certain people on the forums.
    Nothing secret about it. CA said it themselves.

    Paraphrase of what is said in the video

    "At this point they knew they wanted an ethereal lord, a caster for the faction and a female that does not come in the 'typical female shape' because people come in all shapes and sizes."





    9:50-10:10 if time stamp won't work
    animacja-sygn-3.gif


  • misunderstoodvampiremisunderstoodvampire Registered Users Posts: 974
    I will always wish Count Noctilus had the option to have a sword or swords. Does anyone know of a mod that would give him a sword?
  • 39821739175248623982173917524862 Registered Users Posts: 1,262
    edited June 2019
    I still didn't get them. Don't like undead that much or pirates and heavy ranged faction focus. But I can appreciate the love put in the faction, even as enemies on the campaign, with the improved and toned down AI for them.
    It can be said that they took the spot from other factions that I might have been more interested in with the recent announcement regarding DLC, but let bygones be bygones.
    I'm hoping the rest of the DLC is not cross-over DLC and instead is lord packs that fill out the missing units for WH2 factions.
    It can easily be HE vs Lizardmen(magic focus) with a HE archmage lord and a Skink oracle lord for Lizardmen and a DE vs Skaven(monster focus) with Beastmasters, Medusae and giant rats, Verminlords. I'm still hopeful for the rest of the DLC.
  • Infinite_MawInfinite_Maw Registered Users Posts: 1,531
    Here is a few issues I want to bring up
    • Firstly Louis Cypher is not a pirate in the lore. He made a few ramshackle ships to transport a stereotype vampire count army to Ulthuan and failed miserably. He has nothing to do with barrels of rum and gunfire.
    • Direfins lore is interesting when you get all the components and bits of lore, see the Warhammer fantasy fandom wiki for a complete account of her lore. The problem is that CA choose to underrepresent her more interesting parts of her lore, being her relationship with Stromfels and how her powers are related to him, and focused on her more boring parts instead like wanting to sink Ulthuan. I do find Arenessa Saltspite and even Vangheist worst lord choices than Direfin.
    • Also I also question what the point of offices are, given the vampire coast already have a lot of other ways to buff their units. There was too much power creep in the DLC.
    • Infamy was never supposed to be great, it was just a campaign completion bar. Although in mortal empires there should of been a more interesting way to get the 3 pirate verses in comparison to the vortex campaign.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 10,395
    edited June 2019

    • Direfins lore is interesting when you get all the components and bits of lore, see the Warhammer fantasy fandom wiki for a complete account of her lore. The problem is that CA choose to underrepresent her more interesting parts of her lore, being her relationship with Stromfels and how her powers are related to him, and focused on her more boring parts instead like wanting to sink Ulthuan. I do find Arenessa Saltspite and even Vangheist worst lord choices than Direfin.
    Nah, sorry. I am fully aware of her lore and I don't mind her but she is not an interesting character nor doe she have interesting lore. Given magic power by a god despite only being a singer(all the while completely ignoring the Syreens that are self sustained entities in Vampire Coast), wants to sink Ulthuan because of eccentricity and has absolutely no connections to any other LL in the game whatsoever. From what I can tell no one else even knows of her. That's what happens when you create a new character and don't bother developing them.

    At least Vangheist and Aranessa were part of Dreadfleet and have that internal conflict to work with, which did see several different races involved, even son of the Phoenix King. Not to mention the possibility of Golden Magus or Jaego Roth appearing one day as well so furthering that connection still. They are far more involved than she is.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • WaaaghCheifWaaaghCheif Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,903
    Crossil said:



    wants to sink Ulthuan because of eccentricity and has absolutely no connections to any other LL in the game whatsoever. From what I can tell no one else even knows of her.

    She has no connections to any character in the game. No one that acknowledges her.

    (But hey CA didn't exactly do a aces work on connections and interactions with Characters in the game. Tyrion not recognizing his brother in diplomacy screen for example, and the dwarfs having no lines for the Skaven)

    Her lore is dumb. She wants to sink Ulthuan because she sank on the way there and blame the elves. A more logical target would be to sink Bretonnia since they sent her on her doomed voyage. Even then...
  • FloppingerFloppinger Registered Users Posts: 526
    What I wonder about the Vampirates from a lore perspective is how come they have so many ranged options when the VC have none?

    I remember reading that necromancy was to crude to raise a zombie or skeleton with the necessary capability and understanding/instinct to handle a bow or handgun, let alone a cannon. Which is one of the main differences (from an army roster perspective) between VC undead and nehekaran undead.

    Yet here´s the Vampire Coast with zombie gunners, cannons, mortars and whatnot. So how does that work?

    Is it because the VC don´t raise enough corpses who used to be hunters, handgunners, cannon crew, etc, to create effective units, while the vampirates do?
    Is it a different kind of undeath, more of pirates of the carribean esque curse, rather than raised by common necromancy?
    Or is it an inconsistency that you best not think about to hard in a fantasy setting?
  • Infinite_MawInfinite_Maw Registered Users Posts: 1,531
    Crossil said:

    • Direfins lore is interesting when you get all the components and bits of lore, see the Warhammer fantasy fandom wiki for a complete account of her lore. The problem is that CA choose to underrepresent her more interesting parts of her lore, being her relationship with Stromfels and how her powers are related to him, and focused on her more boring parts instead like wanting to sink Ulthuan. I do find Arenessa Saltspite and even Vangheist worst lord choices than Direfin.
    Nah, sorry. I am fully aware of her lore and I don't mind her but she is not an interesting character nor doe she have interesting lore. Given magic power by a god despite only being a singer(all the while completely ignoring the Syreens that are self sustained entities in Vampire Coast), wants to sink Ulthuan because of eccentricity and has absolutely no connections to any other LL in the game whatsoever. From what I can tell no one else even knows of her. That's what happens when you create a new character and don't bother developing them.

    She has a good blueprint for a LL, but definitely needed some work.

    She is more than just a singer to someone like Stromfels. While all sailors avoid Stromfels sea storms, including his own pirate worshippers, Direfin was the only mortal who deliberately charged into his storm and gave one of her performances to him. For a god who is always expected to have his work and identity feared for the most part, you can understand Stromfels might have been honoured to have this type of reception instead and thus make Direfin his emissary. Like I said she needed a few tweaks and adjustments to her lore.

    Also a lot of Lord and heroes in Warhammer don't really have connections to other lords and heroes. There may be brief snippets of some teamwork and some rivalries, but I would say 30-60% are self-contained characters.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 10,395
    edited June 2019

    Crossil said:

    • Direfins lore is interesting when you get all the components and bits of lore, see the Warhammer fantasy fandom wiki for a complete account of her lore. The problem is that CA choose to underrepresent her more interesting parts of her lore, being her relationship with Stromfels and how her powers are related to him, and focused on her more boring parts instead like wanting to sink Ulthuan. I do find Arenessa Saltspite and even Vangheist worst lord choices than Direfin.
    Nah, sorry. I am fully aware of her lore and I don't mind her but she is not an interesting character nor doe she have interesting lore. Given magic power by a god despite only being a singer(all the while completely ignoring the Syreens that are self sustained entities in Vampire Coast), wants to sink Ulthuan because of eccentricity and has absolutely no connections to any other LL in the game whatsoever. From what I can tell no one else even knows of her. That's what happens when you create a new character and don't bother developing them.

    She has a good blueprint for a LL, but definitely needed some work.

    She is more than just a singer to someone like Stromfels. While all sailors avoid Stromfels sea storms, including his own pirate worshippers, Direfin was the only mortal who deliberately charged into his storm and gave one of her performances to him. For a god who is always expected to have his work and identity feared for the most part, you can understand Stromfels might have been honoured to have this type of reception instead and thus make Direfin his emissary. Like I said she needed a few tweaks and adjustments to her lore.

    Also a lot of Lord and heroes in Warhammer don't really have connections to other lords and heroes. There may be brief snippets of some teamwork and some rivalries, but I would say 30-60% are self-contained characters.
    But that's it, a blueprint.

    I don't see it. A god of dangers at sea gives work to a random singer that's too self centered for her own good.

    But they do have several things, every single one in the armybooks since they participate in the conflicts concerning individual races. For instance if I pull out Gor-Rok I know he has fought against nearly every race in game. There's a detailed storyline in the very armybook that summarizes a Dark Elf raid on Lustria wherein he took command. He is a well traveled warrior that has fought from Chaos Wastes to Mountains of Mourn.

    When you say self-contained you're probably thinking some one-off characters. But most characters in the armybooks do have their own storyline and characterization to work with as well as connections to their own race, at least. VP's one problem, that especially concerns Direfin is that they don't have a common storyline and with her it is even more abundantly clear.

    And, of course, TW is not a franchise that builds itself on storylines, but fortunately Warhammer has its background. Unfortunately OC characters don't profit from that. And this will be so for every other such character. Even the Chariot Lord but he at least has memes.

    So if you say "blueprint" then don't go and act like that's enough to make her interesting.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • WaaaghCheifWaaaghCheif Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,903

    What I wonder about the Vampirates from a lore perspective is how come they have so many ranged options when the VC have none?

    I remember reading that necromancy was to crude to raise a zombie or skeleton with the necessary capability and understanding/instinct to handle a bow or handgun, let alone a cannon. Which is one of the main differences (from an army roster perspective) between VC undead and nehekaran undead.

    Yet here´s the Vampire Coast with zombie gunners, cannons, mortars and whatnot. So how does that work?

    Is it because the VC don´t raise enough corpses who used to be hunters, handgunners, cannon crew, etc, to create effective units, while the vampirates do?
    Is it a different kind of undeath, more of pirates of the carribean esque curse, rather than raised by common necromancy?
    Or is it an inconsistency that you best not think about to hard in a fantasy setting?

    Lorewise, Luthor Harkons powers was enhanced when he got his brain zapped by Lizardmen traps/relics. He cant use magic but he has a powerful necromantic aura that let his zombies be so stable they can fire and aim firearms.

    Luthor Harkon is the only one with this power. Count Noctilus is Vampire Pirate sure, but he most likely had vanilla Vampire Counts powers. This was changed in Vampire Coast.

    Aranessa and Cylostra has vampire "first mates".
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 10,395
    edited June 2019

    What I wonder about the Vampirates from a lore perspective is how come they have so many ranged options when the VC have none?

    I remember reading that necromancy was to crude to raise a zombie or skeleton with the necessary capability and understanding/instinct to handle a bow or handgun, let alone a cannon. Which is one of the main differences (from an army roster perspective) between VC undead and nehekaran undead.

    Yet here´s the Vampire Coast with zombie gunners, cannons, mortars and whatnot. So how does that work?

    Is it because the VC don´t raise enough corpses who used to be hunters, handgunners, cannon crew, etc, to create effective units, while the vampirates do?
    Is it a different kind of undeath, more of pirates of the carribean esque curse, rather than raised by common necromancy?
    Or is it an inconsistency that you best not think about to hard in a fantasy setting?

    Luthor Harkon's necromancy was affected by either the magic shield or the Old Ones artifact so his zombies are different. Count Noctilus uses the Maelstrom which was shown to raise undead differently than Nagash's magic in the novel. Cylostra and(probably) Aranessa both have Stromfels to thank for it, probably. Or whatever way the Vampire Admirals are affected by Stromfels.

    All of these seem to be different from Nagash's magic.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • Infinite_MawInfinite_Maw Registered Users Posts: 1,531
    Crossil said:



    But they do have several things, every single one in the armybooks since they participate in the conflicts concerning individual races. For instance if I pull out Gor-Rok I know he has fought against nearly every race in game. There's a detailed storyline in the very armybook that summarizes a Dark Elf raid on Lustria wherein he took command. He is a well traveled warrior that has fought from Chaos Wastes to Mountains of Mourn.

    When you say self-contained you're probably thinking some one-off characters. But most characters in the armybooks do have their own storyline and characterization to work with as well as connections to their own race, at least. VP's one problem, that especially concerns Direfin is that they don't have a common storyline and with her it is even more abundantly clear.

    And, of course, TW is not a franchise that builds itself on storylines, but fortunately Warhammer has its background. Unfortunately OC characters don't profit from that. And this will be so for every other such character. Even the Chariot Lord but he at least has memes.

    So if you say "blueprint" then don't go and act like that's enough to make her interesting.

    If battles in the canon lore are your qualification for playable LL, then the likes of Araby or Amazons or Cathay would never have enough LL. That might be fine with you, but for everyone else who wants to see certain factions to be made then a few OC characters would be required.
  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Registered Users Posts: 4,310
    Let me take a crack at it. Full disclosure, I have not as of yet purchased this DLC so most of this breakdown is from an outsider's perspective looking in and does not have any gameplay experience to back it up. I only have "Let's Plays" on YT to inform my opinion on things I can't find out on my own. I'll try to be as impartial as I can considering my still lukewarm bitterness about the choice to include this DLC at all given what was omitted to bring it to fruition.

    LLs:

    Luthor Harkon- Obvious choice for the race, no way they could have done it without him. His implementation is mostly fine, but I still question the decision to give him a monster to ride.

    Count Noctilus- An exceptional pick for the DLC and well implemented IMO. I'm not bothered by the timeline shuffling in order to put him in the Galleon's Graveyard. It made him playable and he's a good character for the DLC.

    Aranessa von Saltspite- Here's where I jump ship (haha, get it?). Not only did her implementation contribute to the exclusion of another possible race by taking a valuable starting position, she doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the theme of the DLC. Her lore took a complete 180 to the point where she ended up aligning with the very foes she was fighting against in the source material she came from. Also not crazy about her mount.

    Cloyster "Who dis"-fin- This choice just falls flat on its face. Following the decision to create an original character, they had carte blanche to create something cool and they just completely failed in getting me hyped to play this LL. If they had put as much effort into developing an existing character as they did into completely making one from scratch I think we could have gotten something better. Or if they still wanted an OC character, there were a number of other routes they could have taken that would be more in keeping with the theme of the race.

    Roster:
    With a few exceptions, this is actually the best part of the pack IMO. Just try not to think too hard about how Undead in the New World have more and better gunpowder weapons than either the Empire or the Dwarfs, you'll get a headache. Those exceptions are;

    Mourngul Haunter- I can't put my finger on it, but this one bothers me for some reason. The Mournguls are cool and all, but having a hero version of them doesn't sit right with me.

    Syreens- They were hero choices in the WD list, but were repurposed as an infantry unit for the pack. I think they could have achieved the same effect by adapting the Spirit Host from the VC army book and kept Syreens as characters. They also could have done at least a little work on their appearance to fit the theme of the race.

    Terrorgheist- I hardly think this unit was necessary and I think it was only included in the roster because CA wanted to give Harkon a monstrous mount but were out of ideas at that point. As a mount, I think it would have been better for Noctilus who maybe brought some from Sylvania when he transported himself to the Galleon's Graveyard, but I guess they're apparently found in Lustria now too.

    Mechanics:
    Holy over-stimulation Batman! I can't even imagine getting used to managing all of these mechanics in a single campaign as it'd probably end up being too tedious to stay on top of all of them but in so doing, it seems like they'd make your campaign a cakewalk.

    Treasure Maps and Pieces of Eight- I like both these ideas. They're thematic and seem fun. I wouldn't change them.

    Ship-building- I like this mechanic in theory, but it's over-tuned. I think the effects should only apply while you're at sea; on land it just gives you way too much power. In a friendly province, you have access to 5 different recruitment pools with this feature; standard recruitment, raise dead, global recruitment, RoRs, and shipbuilding. You could lose all of your units in a battle and completely reconstitute your force in 1 turn (1 or 2 turns more if you want some elites).

    Global Recruitment/Encamp- the Counts don't have this feature or even the ability to encamp. Oh, and encamp doesn't cost any movement to activate. I'd say scrap this feature entirely.

    Coves- Again I like this idea in theory, but it's both too easy and has no downside. First, the success rate for this hero-action means it will only cost you gold to establish, and with how good the Coast's income is already, it's a no-brainer. They're also virtually permanent, so you can just sit back and collect your gold and infamy. There needs to be some risk and there needs to be a way for the enemy to remove them.

    Loyalty- The only "negative" mechanic for the VCoast, but it's so easily subverted with the Legendary Admirals. To top it off, it's not even original since DE and Skaven have it too, except it's actually somewhat impactful for those 2. Scrap it.

    Legendary Admirals- Like I mentioned, this mechanic let's you get around the Loyalty mechanic AND grants you 4 more "horde" armies which have access to all of the recruitment options you could ask for. It's also a near carbon-copy of the TKs dynasty Lords. Scrap it.

    Offices- I'm not sure why CA felt it was necessary for the VCoast, but it makes the Empire look even more terrible by comparison. You don't even need the buffs it gives you; it just makes the campaign even easier. Scrap it.

    Miscellaneous
    Economy- The income from buildings is astounding. You can collect more straight income from buildings than even a Dwarf province that is maxed out on income buildings. Tone it down and base their economy on sacking, raiding, and looting; you know, Pirate things.

    Climate- The best climate profile in the game outside of Wood Elves and Norsca, both of whom have restricted conquest features. Either reign it in, or restrict their conquest options.

    Rites- Why can't the Counts have rites again? One rite gives you free money every 15 turns (like they need it) and another one further subverts the loyalty mechanic.

    So those are my thoughts. If I misjudged something on account of not actually owning the DLC, please let me know. I tried to remain as impartial as I could, hopefully these are valid critiques.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    edited June 2019
    Seems to me they can't integrate a character without retroactively adding her to the lore of others, and by Sigmar, just ponder how THAT would be received.

    Anyway, since warhammer is a kind of quasi static world*, it doesn't make much difference in practice, there are a few direct rivalries, but tacked on factions can't really insert themselves organically into the stories of others. Even when GW did it, they had to rewrite a bunch of lore, remember how necrons went from some robotic faction to primeval evil fighting chaos and the ancients, etc ?


    *sure BIG stuff happened in the past. And when it happened in the present, well, people are still hurting from that event. It's a design that lores for such games can't evolve much, we are not following an actual story, but using a background for a lot of battles and events that are mutually exclusive (will the dwarfs regains their holds? Will Grimgor headbutt Archaon for good this times, etc ?)

  • doclumbagodoclumbago Registered Users Posts: 1,849
    I think conquering / settling is made terribly easy, especially when you have several aquatic Hordes.
    -> Settling everywhere is nice but Vampirates should treat all regions except coasts as inhabitable.

    I think more Landmarks should have been added for them.

    Not being able to confederate stinks
Sign In or Register to comment.