Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Wives shouldn't be heir, or "relative" at all

LyserusLyserus Posts: 33Registered Users
1.After the faction leader dies most of the faction without a heir at the start will be inherited by faction leader's wife, which in the history is not accurate at all, not to mention most of the wives are made up characters, not existing in real history

2.Making wife "relative" cause the game to link all her relative and her relative's relative as your relative, I can't marry my son to the widow of my other son's wife's cousin because appearantly that is incest.

3.They are just not historically accurate. Most of the women never participate in battle during that period, let alone ruling. While I agree some of the female has the power to rule (eg Lady Wu) or fight (eg Zheng Jiang), that shouldn't apply to wives/daughters of all the faction leaders.

4.There are just to few of females. They don't generate from recruitment pool, and in the late game there will be no one to marry to, and on top of that you can't marry two ppl unless one side is your relative (so ppl like Guan Yu, Zhang Fei are single forever unless you make them Liu Bei's "son"). There should be a decision to "marry" your male family member or non-relative generals in the family tree tab, marking them "married" but not generating a wife character. They can no longer be married to someone else and will occasionaly get son/daughter like a married couple in this game.
«1

Comments

  • tadakatsutadakatsu Junior Member Posts: 389Registered Users
    um in history if a king had a wife and he died the wife would become regent unless the king chose someone to take his place until his son was old enough to lead
  • tadakatsutadakatsu Junior Member Posts: 389Registered Users
    also this game is based on rotk which had many female generals/fighters
  • LyserusLyserus Posts: 33Registered Users
    tadakatsu said:

    also this game is based on rotk which had many female generals/fighters

    hmm no
    Sun Ren is about the only one being "strong" enough to fight, but even then she never actually fought someone let alone participate in a war
  • LyserusLyserus Posts: 33Registered Users
    tadakatsu said:

    um in history if a king had a wife and he died the wife would become regent unless the king chose someone to take his place until his son was old enough to lead

    and that is Europe not China. Only in a stable unified government can a ruler's mother or widow rule and there must be an heir.

    In time like three kingdoms a faction is either done for or inherited by a strong subordinate if there is no heir/young heir
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,122Registered Users, Moderators
    For now I will let this stay open, but it is on a short leash.
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -The "Spam" flag is not a "disagree" flag. Have a care.
    -...No, no the "Abuse" flag isn't a "disagree" flag either!
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • WhiteHorseMemesWhiteHorseMemes Posts: 331Registered Users
    edited June 17
    In ROTK (the novel) there weren't too many female characters who actually fought. The main one I can think of is Zhurong, the fictive wife of Meng Huo of the Nanman, who himself may have been fictitious. On the other hand, women in the novel did occasionally proffer advice, scheme or act in a regent-like capacity. The best example of this is Yuan Shao's wife at the part of the novel in which Yuan Shao dies. She essentially summons all his generals, decides upon the succession and acts on his behalf. The Empress Dowager of Wei also exerted some influence.

    I have very mixed feelings about this because I agree with several of OP's points, but I also like what the female characters add to the game. I like that they are characters and are worth something to have. I like that you can marry them off to other factions or receive them as characters in your court if they marry into your own faction. I even don't really mind the concept of using them in battle.

    Where I agree with the OP is that it's really silly that they constantly end up becoming the heirs of factions. In a lot of games, I end up seeing factions with weird names due to all the female characters who have become lords. I get confused who this faction originally was in the first place, and it's hard to understand why female characters control them. In some cases it's just ridiculous; for example, Huangfu Song of the Han often dies and ends up being replaced with some female leader. I've also seen major factions such as Liu Bei end up being ruled by some female leader. I don't mind females becoming part of the family tree, but I don't think they should automatically become heir to a dead leader. Alternatively or in addition, maybe the AI could set heirs as their top generals (until they have a son) instead of allowing their wives to take over in most cases. I think they could make exceptions only or mainly with very important female characters, such as Sun Ren and (imo) Lady Liu of Yuan Shao's faction.
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Posts: 1,488Registered Users
    edited June 17
    The wife should be a relative but the wife's family tree that isn't an offspring of the ruler shouldn't be considered as relatives. Also Zheng Jiang is a completely fictional character that is invented by CA so historically she never existed, so since you brought up "historically" this is worth a mention. It would be nice if you your sworn brothers are also part of your family tree like Guan, Zhang.
  • LyserusLyserus Posts: 33Registered Users
    Canuovea said:

    For now I will let this stay open, but it is on a short leash.

    why??
    This is not a topic about social justice, it's about historical inaccuracy and game mechanics
  • RedwolfActualRedwolfActual Member Posts: 245Registered Users
    edited June 17
    No, it's a stupid topic, and frankly you showed your hand.

    No one said anything about social justice. . .


  • RewanRewan Senior Member Posts: 1,347Registered Users
    Did you complain to Koei Tecmo as well ?
  • PhillyPhan321@gmail.com[email protected] Posts: 43Registered Users

    No, it's a stupid topic, and frankly you showed your hand.

    No one said anything about social justice. . .


    That is your opinion.

    I personally agree with the OP and have heard many people say very similar things so I think it is worth talking about and not just be shut down/censored by a mod.

    You don't have to be anti-female to not want females to become the ruler of a faction that is supposed to be based on a book that is based on history from 1800 years ago when women were not generals or faction leaders (in almost all cases).

    As the OP said and I agree I think it is fine having some female generals and some females who can become faction leaders but there are way to many generic females who become faction leaders and generals right now and it breaks immersion.

    Someone said "Did you complain to Koei Tecmo as well ?" in their ROTK strategy games which are not like the silly Dynasty Warriors games there are only like 5-15 female characters in those games out of the 2000 real characters they have in those games. And all the female characters they have in those games were in the book. Besides sort of Lu Bu's daughter who is mentioned in the book but without a name. They make her into a cool warrior like her dad in the game. If they want to add her I think that would be cool. There are plenty of cool female characters from the book CA can add to the game. The generic female characters are the issue to me.
  • PhillyPhan321@gmail.com[email protected] Posts: 43Registered Users
    How come comments in this thread don't move it back to the top of the forums list of threads? Is it being purposely buried by the mods?
  • tadakatsutadakatsu Junior Member Posts: 389Registered Users
    one thing if you dont want a female as your faction leader then choose an heir who will be old enough before your leader dies lol. if you dont choose an heir it chooses your wife if you have no wife it randomly chooses someone who is in your faction
  • tadakatsutadakatsu Junior Member Posts: 389Registered Users
    and generic females have a super low chance to appear compared to males anyway
  • PhillyPhan321@gmail.com[email protected] Posts: 43Registered Users
    tadakatsu said:

    one thing if you dont want a female as your faction leader then choose an heir who will be old enough before your leader dies lol. if you dont choose an heir it chooses your wife if you have no wife it randomly chooses someone who is in your faction

    That isn't the issue. The issue is with what the AI factions do. There are always 2-5 factions led by random generic female charterers. It is very immersion breaking and should be something CA addresses in my opinion and not require a mod to correct.
  • tadakatsutadakatsu Junior Member Posts: 389Registered Users
    historically one of 2 things would have happened when a faction leader dies 1 their wife takes control until the heir is old enough or 2 a civil war breaks out with disloyal generals who are power hungry. plus it is a sandbox game that is a mix between fantasy and history in terms of romance mode anyway.
  • decourcy2decourcy2 Posts: 163Registered Users
    Those random generic female characters are usually the regent for a minor.
  • tadakatsutadakatsu Junior Member Posts: 389Registered Users
    also in the case of yellow turbans when leader dies its 100% rng on who next leader is and there is nothing you can do to change that since they have no family tree and therefore cant choose an heir.
  • PhillyPhan321@gmail.com[email protected] Posts: 43Registered Users
    tadakatsu said:

    historically one of 2 things would have happened when a faction leader dies 1 their wife takes control until the heir is old enough or 2 a civil war breaks out with disloyal generals who are power hungry. plus it is a sandbox game that is a mix between fantasy and history in terms of romance mode anyway.

    Actually a 3rd option that you didn't mention is most likely to happen if a leader dies with a son who is still a minor. If the son is a Emperor a General or trusted minister of the former Emperor would be named regent. The mother would have say on internal palace matters or the Eunuchs would depending on how old the new Emperor is. This would be the same case with a warlord as well.

    And yes the game is a sandbox game just as all total war games in the past were. If you want to force a women to be the leader of your faction I think that is fine. The other AI controlled factions should act much more like they would in history though. I'm even fine with it being rare that a AI faction gets led by a women. But in all seriousness it would not have happened in China the time of this game that a female would become a warlord. Just read the Romance of the 3 Kingdoms book and you'll see how women were thought of in China even in the period the book was written in like 1300 years after the events of the book. For example Liu Bei the most righteous character in the book when confronted with the fact that he and his brothers were abandoning their wives and kids again Lie Bei tells his brothers and officers basically "who cares if we are leaving them behind. They are but like a garment of clothing that can be easily replaced. While if we go back I am likely to lose one of you my brothers which I can not replace".
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 18,633Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Second Moderator warning. Keep the comments focused on the OP's topic for discussion. Them Forum Terms & Conditions do not provide for a lot of "wiggle room" with making posts with gender, cultural or personal content.

    Review and reflect on your post before posting. Thank you.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • markp27markp27 Posts: 1,295Registered Users
    Simple solution is to do what KOEI did with ROTK13, have an option if players want female characters to be playable or not unless they were well known for fighting.

    The female characters would still appear within the game as wives.
  • tadakatsutadakatsu Junior Member Posts: 389Registered Users
    except that wouldnt work as 1 faction is led by a female character and there are a total of 2 legendary female characters so unless there was a way they could just make it so generic ones couldnt fight then it wouldnt work. also its based on rotk and from what i know there were several women who fought in it
  • LyserusLyserus Posts: 33Registered Users
    tadakatsu said:

    except that wouldnt work as 1 faction is led by a female character and there are a total of 2 legendary female characters so unless there was a way they could just make it so generic ones couldnt fight then it wouldnt work. also its based on rotk and from what i know there were several women who fought in it

    Actually the only woman who fought in rotk is Zhu Rong, who is not in the game yet

    Sun Ren (Or Sun ShangXiang) was said to have the strength and courage, but she never fought in a duel or in a battle in the entire game.

    Zheng Jiang is a made up character by CA

    So yeah
  • tadakatsutadakatsu Junior Member Posts: 389Registered Users
    zheng jiang is not made up at all. she was extremely minor though and barely mentioned.
  • markp27markp27 Posts: 1,295Registered Users
    tadakatsu said:

    zheng jiang is not made up at all. she was extremely minor though and barely mentioned.

    markp27 said:

    Simple solution is to do what KOEI did with ROTK13, have an option if players want female characters to be playable or not unless they were well known for fighting.

    The female characters would still appear within the game as wives.

    unless they are well known for fighting in which case they could still be a general :)
  • LyserusLyserus Posts: 33Registered Users
    tadakatsu said:

    zheng jiang is not made up at all. she was extremely minor though and barely mentioned.

    Not really. Even in history there were suppose to be 2 female bandits, one is Zheng one is Jiang. they are mentioned together and CA didn't see that "," So they made up a character called Zheng Jiang
  • LocusaniLocusani Posts: 6Registered Users
    So you're saying there were two more women fighters in history? Zheng and Jiang?
  • coolscools Posts: 31Registered Users
    edited June 20
    Im not gonna comment on the "should female be general" thing, but I totally agree with OP that wives/daughters should not be faction heir except for Zheng Jiang. It breaks immersion in a game set in ancient China 600 years before the first and only Chinese female emperor was born.
    And to be honest, female should not be regent neither. Though there is the political tradition to let mother be regent before a child emperor comes to age during peaceful time, in the chaotic three kingdoms era there is none. When the 8 years old Cao Fang inherited the Wei throne, his regent was uncle Cao Shuang. Then after the coup of Gaopingling, the usurper Sima Yi. Female regent would be considered inappropriate in a chaotic time like this.
    My suggest on succession law is:
    1)Make wives and daughter not eligible for succession, except for Zheng Jiang.
    2)When there is no eligible heir, a general(ideally should be the one with strongest retinue) takes over the faction, and lower the satisfaction of other generals.
    3)When the heir is young, a general (first choice should be a general from his mother's famliy, if there is none then the one with strongest retinue) becomes regent. Then we should have some event about the regent attempting to seize the faction for himself, like the Simas.
  • LyserusLyserus Posts: 33Registered Users
    Locusani said:

    So you're saying there were two more women fighters in history? Zheng and Jiang?

    Zheng Jiang is none existed.

    Zheng and Jiang are female bandits who are mentioned in one sentence in the entire history, and that sentence was about a guy defeating and killing them because of a dream.

    Zhu Song is made up in romance.

    Sun Ren was mentioned to have the courage and skill to fight, but never participated in duels or in battle

    If you have to use these as your argument of "there are plenty of female fight on the battle in three kingdom period", sure go ahead
  • PhillyPhan321@gmail.com[email protected] Posts: 43Registered Users
    cools said:

    Im not gonna comment on the "should female be general" thing, but I totally agree with OP that wives/daughters should not be faction heir except for Zheng Jiang. It breaks immersion in a game set in ancient China 600 years before the first and only Chinese female emperor was born.
    And to be honest, female should not be regent neither. Though there is the political tradition to let mother be regent before a child emperor comes to age during peaceful time, in the chaotic three kingdoms era there is none. When the 8 years old Cao Fang inherited the Wei throne, his regent was uncle Cao Shuang. Then after the coup of Gaopingling, the usurper Sima Yi. Female regent would be considered inappropriate in a chaotic time like this.
    My suggest on succession law is:
    1)Make wives and daughter not eligible for succession, except for Zheng Jiang.
    2)When there is no eligible heir, a general(ideally should be the one with strongest retinue) takes over the faction, and lower the satisfaction of other generals.
    3)When the heir is young, a general (first choice should be a general from his mother's famliy, if there is none then the one with strongest retinue) becomes regent. Then we should have some event about the regent attempting to seize the faction for himself, like the Simas.

    I think this is a really good solution that I wish CA would actually read and consider. But I feel like they are just against even listening to anything to do with this point of view.
Sign In or Register to comment.