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When should I bring a giant?

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  • ReymReym Posts: 413Registered Users

    Cukie251 said:

    Except stegadons cost 400 less than a giant and have 90 more armor, which effectively removes the vast majority of counters that give giants trouble (low tier missiles, low tier spears). They are also have a lower target profile, and better leadership.

    Giants have Leadership 100, it's one of the big reasons they're good vs VC.
    Agreed, in fact it's may even what might make them better than the spider vs VC as they can proc LD debuff such as attack in the rear quite easely.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,106Registered Users
    edited June 18
    Cukie251 said:


    And the point we are trying to make is that the effective difference between the stegadon and the giant isn't a result of the 10 speed. Its the 90 extra armor. I would argue the 10 speed has a rather minute affect in comparison.

    Best Monster counters of VC are AP(Vargulfs, TGs, Banshees, Vampires).
    Leaving only skely spears(which are not capable to catch Giant) and BKs as nonAP options. As result this armor are not so important vs VC.

    Do not forget that VC main infantry while trading quite decent with other infantry due to BvI are bad vs Large targets due to low MA.
    Only problem that there is little reason for VC to focus GIants first(it is not mammonth that would evaporate infantry in seconds and eat Mortis with ease, Giants would have problems catching it) and without rest of the army what they can do?
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,856Registered Users
    edited June 18
    Giants still need a speed buff and an actual bonus vs infantry. There are plenty of other armored monsters with higher speed values and have a bonus vs infantry or bonus vs large. It's movement in game is unfortunately not reflective of it's movement in the table top game.
  • ystyst Posts: 5,342Registered Users
    edited June 18
    Its just missing speed and nothing else. Att is high as, once it gets into melee will always dish out some good stuffs, problem is its too slow and normally gets ignored or easily disengaged. Needs to be around 45-48 speed or even 52 to be a nice useful unit.
  • PippingtonPippington Posts: 1,891Registered Users
    We can fantasise about speed 50 giants all we like, but Duck and the team are limited by the animations. For better or worse the giant was animated to lumber very slowly about, and there will be some threshold of speed where those animations start to look weird and unphysical (I wouldn't be surprised if with the incremental speed buff in the last patch we're already pushing up against that limit). They aren't going to go back and pay the animator(s) to re-do their job on Giants for the sake of MP balance.


    Get on, Kroq-Gar, we're going shopping

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,082Registered Users

    We can fantasise about speed 50 giants all we like, but Duck and the team are limited by the animations. For better or worse the giant was animated to lumber very slowly about, and there will be some threshold of speed where those animations start to look weird and unphysical (I wouldn't be surprised if with the incremental speed buff in the last patch we're already pushing up against that limit). They aren't going to go back and pay the animator(s) to re-do their job on Giants for the sake of MP balance.

    which is why I think a rework to make the Giant actually playable will likely happen only in game 3.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,106Registered Users
    Green0 said:


    which is why I think a rework to make the Giant actually playable will likely happen only in game 3.

    You always can compensate it with other options. Significant missiles resist and Giant would be viable and quite large number of match ups even with current speed.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,082Registered Users
    edited June 18
    tank3487 said:

    Green0 said:


    which is why I think a rework to make the Giant actually playable will likely happen only in game 3.

    You always can compensate it with other options. Significant missiles resist and Giant would be viable and quite large number of match ups even with current speed.
    please no... we don't need more Mammoth-like single entities in this game with monstrous amounts of HP that not everyone can kill off quickly. HP pool is fine where it is, it's something like 9000 right now iirc, give the Giant say 15% missile resistance and you have another 11k HP monster.

    I think the way to go is really more speed and maybe some active abilities like in tabletop... let's hope for game 3.
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 757Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    tank3487 said:

    Green0 said:


    which is why I think a rework to make the Giant actually playable will likely happen only in game 3.

    You always can compensate it with other options. Significant missiles resist and Giant would be viable and quite large number of match ups even with current speed.
    please no... we don't need more Mammoth-like single entities in this game with monstrous amounts of HP that not everyone can kill off quickly. HP pool is fine where it is, it's something like 9000 right now iirc, give the Giant say 15% missile resistance and you have another 11k HP monster.

    I think the way to go is really more speed and maybe some active abilities like in tabletop... let's hope for game 3.
    Yea I agree. I think the giant is strong enough as a damage sponge atm, i think they need to be a little more useful from an attacking perspective

    Given them a little more speed and faster attack intervals and see how that shakes things up
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,106Registered Users
    Green0 said:


    please no... we don't need more Mammoth-like single entities in this game with monstrous amounts of HP that not everyone can kill off quickly. HP pool is fine where it is, it's something like 9000 right now iirc, give the Giant say 15% missile resistance and you have another 11k HP monster.

    You imply that something like 11k HP are much vs range without armor.
    Just this sunday in tournament i had faced double Giants from beastmen that were decimated with 4 extremely cheap javelins that still had plenty of ammo to harass cav and minos.

    And Mammonths have 70 armor, better speed and despite that range are quite effective counter to them.
    Green0 said:


    I think the way to go is really more speed and maybe some active abilities like in tabletop... let's hope for game 3.

    It is either decrease effectivness of range vs Large targets(which is not good due to already established balance with other units) or significant increase resilence of Giants to missiles.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,106Registered Users
    Theo91 said:


    Yea I agree. I think the giant is strong enough as a damage sponge atm, i think they need to be a little more useful from an attacking perspective

    They are strong damage sponge only vs melee units. Any range infantry even for half a cost would get it to rest in quick time. This is the reason why Giants are only viable vs VC right now.
  • ExarchExarch Posts: 575Registered Users

    Norsca literally has the perfect counter vs the giant in the Marauder Hunters with Javelins which will melt the giant in 5-6 volleys.



    They're really short ranged, so not much of an issue if you put the giant behind the front line initially and pressure with light cav and a wide infantry line with waagh.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 166Registered Users
    It is true that it is objectively not good. I do not know which to buff speed or resistance, but do not forget to care about VC. If it buff the speed, have to reduce leadership like any other monsters. If it raise the resistance, HP needs to be reduced slightly. Anyway, I hope will not touch the damage. Already strong enough.

    Compare the Feral mammoth of the Norsca with the Giant.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 958Registered Users
    edited June 18
    I've no idea why Giants simply didn't get their TT equivalent of speed which would be around 50-55, and became a weird unit instead. Their strides are supposed to be huge even if not running. It looks strange to see some 130cm thicc dwarfs outrunning a Giant in a cross-country sprint. And here i thought dwarfs were wasted on cross-country B)
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 804Registered Users
    Giants are a bit of a strange unit because it is the exact same across 4 rosters(except for Beastmen having forest Strider trait I think). So the synergies you get across each roster can vary quite a bit and make the unit more/less effective depending on the roster. As it stands I think the breakdown for Giants looks like this:

    * Greenskins: Good spot. Having a slightly cheaper 10k SEM that causes terror with very high leadership is very good for the GS. 39 speed becomes 48 with the Waagh, and the greenskins have buckets of poison, smokebombs, gork'll fix it to slow stuff down + very strong skirmish & cheap backline disrupt to help protect it from range. I have been playing around with it a bit, and it really provides GS with a good option that differs from the Spider in playstyle. A giant + 1 Goblin Wolf Rider is the same as an Arachnarok Spider and can often be more useful. Can be used well against Vampire Counts, Chaos, Lizardmen, Beastmen, Dark Elves.
    * Beastmen: Okay spot. Beastmen have the most lacklustre roster in the game imo, with a particular weakness to large monsters. Having a giant that can throwdown against things like Dragons & Shaggoths is very useful (even it doesn't solve their problems entirely). The 39 speed is a bit more detrimental here, because the Beastmen roster is so fast in general that it can't cheap up even with infantry. Can be used well against Vampire Counts, Chaos, Lizardmen, Greenskins, Dark Elves.
    * Chaos: Overshadowed entirely by Shaggoths. I struggle to think of a time you would want a Giant over a Shaggoth even with the extra cost.
    * Norsca: Overshadowed entirely by Mammoths (although it might have a bit more use here as a monster dueler, Norsca have such great options vs large that it isn't relevant).

    So I'm not really sure what to do with the unit tbh, because any changes will impact 4 rosters. Also my analysis of how it plays with Chaos/Norsca might be wrong as I am much less experienced with those factions than Greenskins/Beastmen.
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 464Registered Users
    Giants tend to win combat at least, if they get a buff then huge buff to Hydra, and Hellpit.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,137Registered Users
    Exarch said:

    Norsca literally has the perfect counter vs the giant in the Marauder Hunters with Javelins which will melt the giant in 5-6 volleys.



    They're really short ranged, so not much of an issue if you put the giant behind the front line initially and pressure with light cav and a wide infantry line with waagh.
    A single unit of javelins costs a third of a giants cost, even if you bring 2 you still have some tools to defend your backline, and now have more than enough killing power to pulp a giant.

    Giants tend to win combat at least, if they get a buff then huge buff to Hydra, and Hellpit.

    Well, hellpit suffers from bugged animations and too horrible to die being garbage, but the Hydra is imo in a much better spot than giant. Better base armor, 35% missile resist(iirc), 3 breath attacks, regeneration and burstie self heal.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

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  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 149Registered Users
    I'd be ok with all giants getting either +500 health or +5 bonus vs. infantry. Their intended role is obviously not to be like shaggoths or mammoths but to be more like a hierotitan, an anchor in the mainline that can fight anything in melee.
  • another505another505 Posts: 751Registered Users

    Giants tend to win combat at least, if they get a buff then huge buff to Hydra, and Hellpit.

    Hydra are waay more useful then hellpit or giant

    They are actually decent
  • ystyst Posts: 5,342Registered Users
    Not even comparable, that breath alone net huge $ before u even begin any melee. I mean regen and that resist, like come on for a $1650, decent armor too with 60 no way as bad as 30 on giant. 46 speed too, hella great unit.

    Kharibdyss on the other hand is just crap for $1800, no breath no regen. I mean if theres anything that could make giant looks good, that would prolly be khar lol.

    Giant itself isnt that bad at all, its not great but def not steam tank level, far from it. The speed thing is pretty much clarify by CA so likely wont be seeing it faster anytime soon or ever. I dont get it really, no one care about the animation breaking, like heck if u cast speed buff on it, u be expecting it to goes kinda wonky anyway. Which personally i think its a great thing to see my spell affect in the works. On campaign u really wouldnt care as much sinc eu be spamming like 15 of them anyway and wouldnt matter end of the day, there isnt much speed buffs to begin with.

    They can generate a lot of value when in melee, they could do better if deemed weak, more def maybe, dmg and att is high as already. Hp as well one of the highest ones, armor, maybe a +5, they will always be low so thats that.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,106Registered Users
    yst said:


    Kharibdyss on the other hand is just crap for $1800

    For Terror bomb it is great. I think it is best non Caster unit for terror bombing in whole game right now. It is just extremely situational. Which considering other Hydra options are ok.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,082Registered Users
    yst said:

    Not even comparable, that breath alone net huge $ before u even begin any melee. I mean regen and that resist, like come on for a $1650, decent armor too with 60 no way as bad as 30 on giant. 46 speed too, hella great unit.

    and don't forget awkward as hell breath attack because it's enough to have ONE model in melee to prevent you from using it and also -35 LD compared to a Giant so the moment you get a mild surround + outnumbered bye bye Hydra.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 166Registered Users
    edited June 19
    yst said:

    Not even comparable, that breath alone net huge $ before u even begin any melee. I mean regen and that resist, like come on for a $1650, decent armor too with 60 no way as bad as 30 on giant. 46 speed too, hella great unit.

    Kharibdyss on the other hand is just crap for $1800, no breath no regen. I mean if theres anything that could make giant looks good, that would prolly be khar lol.

    Giant itself isnt that bad at all, its not great but def not steam tank level, far from it. The speed thing is pretty much clarify by CA so likely wont be seeing it faster anytime soon or ever. I dont get it really, no one care about the animation breaking, like heck if u cast speed buff on it, u be expecting it to goes kinda wonky anyway. Which personally i think its a great thing to see my spell affect in the works. On campaign u really wouldnt care as much sinc eu be spamming like 15 of them anyway and wouldnt matter end of the day, there isnt much speed buffs to begin with.

    They can generate a lot of value when in melee, they could do better if deemed weak, more def maybe, dmg and att is high as already. Hp as well one of the highest ones, armor, maybe a +5, they will always be low so thats that.

    The comparison between Hydra and Giant is not appropriate. Hydra is a more specialized unit in the tank, and the giant is more focused on attack. Take a look at the attack range. By limiting and experimenting with CAV, Hydra catches up to two, in most cases one. The giant attacks up to five simultaneous attacks. Giants capable of sweeping like mammoths.

    So I would authorize comparison with the Feral mammoth. Because they have a very similar role to the faction.
    At present, however, there is a difference between speed and leadership, and an infantry focusing or all-rounder.
    If you want to raise Giants armor level like a war mammoth, The answer quite simple.
    Pay more money like War mammoth.

    I think this discussion is meaningful, but I do not want to create another op unit. In the past TWW1, the 3-Giants meta was not difficult to see. It would be nice if it was a good pick, but I would like to avoid making a situation where I pick it without thinking.
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 757Registered Users
    The interesting part when comparing giant to mammoth is that both are available in the same roster. And that goes back to the original question of the thread... does it ever make sense to bring the giant over say a mammoth, or a shaggoth or an aranarok? The answer seems to be no

    As a separate question, does the giant need a buff or is it a fun niche pick. I would argue a small buff to speed and maybe an aoe effect would be fine and then we can reevaluate the giant afterwards
  • ystyst Posts: 5,342Registered Users
    Not at all, giants dont "chariot" like mammoth. Attack up to 5, up to 6, 7, completely irrelevant. Dmg doesnt increase just because u splash more targets. Mammoth is the king of land so nothing even comes close to it afterall ts a frikking $2200 so thats that. Giants, hydra, hierotitan, they r all perfectly appropriate to be discussed together.

    No one is talking about giant vs sphinxes with completely different speed set. Even then, u can look at hellpit and giant, which itself is widely known to be lacklustre paying $1800 for it, still its much more viable than giant in many case.

    Anyway giant itself is an okayish unit, highly uninteresting, but not really lacking too much. At most, i mean if u wanna find faults and such, at the very max its really just missing something like $100 thats it if u wanna put a price tag to it, both their speed and dmg been up about 8% or so already. Its just $1600 cant seriously ask more
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 166Registered Users
    edited June 19
    Theo91 said:

    The interesting part when comparing giant to mammoth is that both are available in the same roster. And that goes back to the original question of the thread... does it ever make sense to bring the giant over say a mammoth, or a shaggoth or an aranarok? The answer seems to be no

    As a separate question, does the giant need a buff or is it a fun niche pick. I would argue a small buff to speed and maybe an aoe effect would be fine and then we can reevaluate the giant afterwards

    CAV : MAMO> GIAN

    INF : MAMO> GIAN

    HERO / LORD : MAMO < GIAN

    SHOOTING REGISTANCE : MAMO = GIAN (CASE BY CASE, MAMO MORE BIG, GIAN SLOWER THAN MAMO)

    LATE GAME : MAMO <GIAN


    In the case of a giant with high-leadership, so you can think of almost all of your HP as real combat. Monsters with low leadership are unable to take out all their abilities in many case and are at risk of retreating abruptly.
    Also, the comparison between the giant and the mammoth, MAMO is a feral unit, so you should think that the mammoth better cost effective because of RAGE.


    And both mammoths and big spiders got big buffs with patches.
    Power inflation will happen if do buff all units that are relatively small.

    So to put it in my mind, If the giant gets a buff without losing anything.
    I think it's okay to buff the giant's speed to 42~43, still lower speed than Mortis.

    oh, I forgot GS. Hmm... I do not know about GS. But I'm going to play games now.
    So I hand it over to someone else. lol
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 415Registered Users
    I think Giant should get the encourage trait.

    Or maybe he should have AOE immune to psychology ability. That would make him a real anchor

    And also some low missile resistance to represent his size making him more resilient to small arms fire (maybe 15% missile resist?)
  • Slade_XSlade_X Posts: 99Registered Users
    They can work well against factions with poor missile troops.... BM, WOC... just need to screen them from skirmish cav
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 2,303Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    yst said:


    Kharibdyss on the other hand is just crap for $1800

    For Terror bomb it is great. I think it is best non Caster unit for terror bombing in whole game right now. It is just extremely situational. Which considering other Hydra options are ok.
    Kharibdyss' Abyssal Howl (-8LD) + Lore of Death's Doom & Darkness (-16LD) + Assassins Black Lotus Poison (-16LD) + Fear/Terror (-10) + Lokhir's Merciless Slaver (-4LD) = HOLY HELL RUN AWAY (- 54 LD).
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 6,633Registered Users
    Giant is

    good vs - VC/BM/CHAOS

    ok vs - GS/LZM/BRET

    Bad vs - HE/DE/TK/Empire

    Horrible vs - WE/SKV/Dwarfs/VP

    I think it needs -50g and +4 speed to be in good spot.
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