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Greenskins balancing state.

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  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 732Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    So I just tested Doomdivers vs Swordmasters led by the AI - before SM are able to come on top of the DD, the DD kills 55/75 of them. This is while not having a frontline and also considering the fact that the DD costs 350g less than SM.

    Artillery in a vacuum shouldn't be cost-efficient vs anything and only good as part of combined arms. Based on this test, it seems that DD needs either the AP swap reverted or +150g at minimum, maybe +200g since it realistically restricts the counters to GS to ONLY cavalry (which is somewhat resilient to DD due to its low splash), while elite infantry gets totally wrecked. The thing currently performs like a mini-Hellcannon but has none of the weaknesses HC has and comes in a much more flexible roster.

    I don't want to be an a**, but @Green0 your testing and methodology is very flawed. For starters, if you just set up the doom diver at say 450m and then charge the Swordmasters straight into it, the Swordmasters will take between 25-30 losses in terms of models. (assuming Doom diver starts shooting as soon as Swordmasters come into range). I suspect that @Green0 you did not consider (or chose to ignore) the fact that the AI is terrible at stretching their formation so the Swordmasters approach in a nice, juicy, square target. If you stretch them out and test vs other player, you lose 25-30 models out of 75. In terms of total health lost, this is about 35% to 45% of total health lost (since some models are injured and not killed). So in terms of value trade in this way, even if we take the upper value of 45% lost, that's about 600g lost. And this is on a unit that is a very juicy target. (very tight formation and slow). If you try something faster and and with looser formation, this is obviously going to be less damage.

    Secondly, most of the killing is done when the unit is within about 100-120m (give or take). Essentially, most damage is taken in the last 2 volleys. So this idea of trying to charge the unit into the doomdiver to see the "trade-value" doesn't make sense.

    How often will swordmasters actually get that close to the doomdiver without killing it? Pretty much never. So the doom diver will pretty much be shooting at the Swordmasters at a range of around 200m -300m. so won't be doing as much damage as in this test.

    I tried the test with a unit like flagellents and they lose 25-35 models on the approach... out of 90.






  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,283Registered Users
    edited July 5
    I also played a few HE-GS games today, when I picked DD it got about 75 kills and that was with enemy player stretching formation. Anyway stretching formation matters little in this case since a) explosion AoE is low, b) the missiles are homing so let’s say u stretch formation, I will concede ~10 less kills, still too good a result if you compare with HC or Trebs.

    If you want we can test together but for me there’s not much to prove that this unit is broken which is why I didn’t ask another player to do this test.

    Also, you’re wrong when you say that 50% of a unit killed = 50% of the gold cost gained, unless you genuinely believe that to neutralize a unit u need to do 100% HP damage. What happens in actual battles is that u fire 3-4 times, remove 30-40% HP from a unit, bam combat effectiveness drastically reduced, morale drastically reduced. Even if we talk about an Elf unit, something like "getting charged" + "under missile fire" + a summon or charge in the rear or a terror source will likely rout it shortly after. And that's Elves with high LD. Imagine if now I tell you pick something like Gor Herd instead they might even rout to the Doomdiver fire itself.

    Also, I mention Swordmasters, Har Ganeth Executioners, Chosen because those are the units that can somewhat wrestle the frontline from GS. You can argue that a unit like Flagellants is more or less Doomdiver proof, and you'd be correct, but this unit also won't get past Waagh'd Goblins or, if needed, Waagh'd Black Orcs.

    edit: I just tested, this time me controlling the Swordmasters, it seems that there is no difference between the Hellcannon and the Doomdiver in terms of performance, give or take statistical swings. They both kill around 30 models before you are able to get into melee. The problem is that HC costs 1200, and is supposed to be a "strong" artillery piece in an otherwise very narrow and limited roster, while Doomdiver isn't supposed to be the best artillery piece in an otherwise very flexible and versatile roster.

    Want a point of comparison? Blessed Field Trebuchet removes only 15 models (HALF the performance of Doomdiver) while costing almost the same.

    Based on current performance, AP majority + moderate splash and homing missiles it seems to me that the Doomdiver needs to be priced around 1050-1100g since it's basically a Hellcannon currently.
    Post edited by Green0 on
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Posts: 613Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    yst said:

    Kinda out of topic
    But why isnt the wyvern an individual unit

    What u mean feral wyverns?

    I asked that ages ago, the official response was asymmetrical balancing. CA doesnt want dragon like stuffs flying around it seems. Prolly why elves r given full air domination, uncontested by any means pretty much.
    Bret VC Coast TK, all factions that can wrestle air control away from nasty Elves if they invest enough.
    You must have some sick carrion micro...
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,283Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    yst said:

    Kinda out of topic
    But why isnt the wyvern an individual unit

    What u mean feral wyverns?

    I asked that ages ago, the official response was asymmetrical balancing. CA doesnt want dragon like stuffs flying around it seems. Prolly why elves r given full air domination, uncontested by any means pretty much.
    Bret VC Coast TK, all factions that can wrestle air control away from nasty Elves if they invest enough.
    You must have some sick carrion micro...
    I think it doesn't come down to the micro but the quantity of Carrion you bring. Admittedly you have to be very stupid to bring something like 6 Carrion vs any Elf, you will also likely fight on top of his archers so it's not a guaranteed win... that being said, units like Carrion or Fellbats stunlock Dragons, Eagles, any single entity flyer apparently so apparently they win air fights.
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 401Registered Users
    Arachnarok Spider- strong monster, but that's it. Great stats all around but susceptible to getting wrecked by leadership modifiers or getting isolated since the rest of the Greenskin army is typically either large and frail or elite but never both.

    Doom Diver- no matter how I look at it this is a goblin hellcannon, and at a spammable price. I'm not saying to make them 1200, but for 900 it's a steal and helps Greenskins out-artillery dwarves while still affording a rush army

    Vindictive Glare- I'm hesitant to buff magic missiles with good tracking in general. Still waiting for that fireball nerf.

    Unmentioned units

    Grimgor- I don't know, give him some HP or something. Maybe a passive effect on his melee attacks that slows units he comes in contact with

    Night Goblin Fanatics- the targetter for this unit's ability is buggy or just generally really clunky, would be nice if they didn't occupy an entire 10+ seconds of micro to try to aim

    Squig Herd and Squig Hoppers- one has 50 armor, and the other has 25. Why??? Make them both 25 or make them both 50 but it's killing me (preferably 25)
  • MrRipper707MrRipper707 Posts: 146Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    So I just tested Doomdivers vs Swordmasters led by the AI - before SM are able to come on top of the DD, the DD kills 55/75 of them. This is while not having a frontline and also considering the fact that the DD costs 350g less than SM.

    Artillery in a vacuum shouldn't be cost-efficient vs anything and only good as part of combined arms. Based on this test, it seems that DD needs either the AP swap reverted or +150g at minimum, maybe +200g since it realistically restricts the counters to GS to ONLY cavalry (which is somewhat resilient to DD due to its low splash), while elite infantry gets totally wrecked. The thing currently performs like a mini-Hellcannon but has none of the weaknesses HC has and comes in a much more flexible roster.

    What do you expect to happen when artillery is able to freely fire on an approaching unit of infantry?
    test Hellcannon or Bretonnian Trebuchet and see for yourself :)
    To be fair green the numbers you presented were presented in a vacuum it would reflect better on your assesment if you have those numbers to provide them as well =)
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    I think gobo-rock-lobber is a problem that has completely disappeared.
    3 GRL vs 2 DD

    Anyone will pick 2-card DD.

    There is no reason to use GRL.
    Monster, CAV, INF Everything is done much better. originally, I thought that INF was GRL and CAV was DD right.
    If reduce the damage, DD will not be able to catch the monsters. so I think that it is good for the cavalry and monsters to eat well, but to make INF less effective. this way, I think we can leave the big-spider. coz they do not have a spear. also they not spam-able.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,355Registered Users
    keroro7 said:

    I think gobo-rock-lobber is a problem that has completely disappeared.
    3 GRL vs 2 DD

    Anyone will pick 2-card DD.

    There is no reason to use GRL.
    Monster, CAV, INF Everything is done much better. originally, I thought that INF was GRL and CAV was DD right.
    If reduce the damage, DD will not be able to catch the monsters. so I think that it is good for the cavalry and monsters to eat well, but to make INF less effective. this way, I think we can leave the big-spider. coz they do not have a spear. also they not spam-able.

    That's because rock throwing war machines are pretty underwhelming in general, save for the RoR versions of them.

  • Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Posts: 468Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    So I just tested Doomdivers vs Swordmasters led by the AI - before SM are able to come on top of the DD, the DD kills 55/75 of them. This is while not having a frontline and also considering the fact that the DD costs 350g less than SM.

    Artillery in a vacuum shouldn't be cost-efficient vs anything and only good as part of combined arms. Based on this test, it seems that DD needs either the AP swap reverted or +150g at minimum, maybe +200g since it realistically restricts the counters to GS to ONLY cavalry (which is somewhat resilient to DD due to its low splash), while elite infantry gets totally wrecked. The thing currently performs like a mini-Hellcannon but has none of the weaknesses HC has and comes in a much more flexible roster.

    I don't want to be an a**, but @Green0 your testing and methodology is very flawed. For starters, if you just set up the doom diver at say 450m and then charge the Swordmasters straight into it, the Swordmasters will take between 25-30 losses in terms of models. (assuming Doom diver starts shooting as soon as Swordmasters come into range). I suspect that @Green0 you did not consider (or chose to ignore) the fact that the AI is terrible at stretching their formation so the Swordmasters approach in a nice, juicy, square target. If you stretch them out and test vs other player, you lose 25-30 models out of 75. In terms of total health lost, this is about 35% to 45% of total health lost (since some models are injured and not killed). So in terms of value trade in this way, even if we take the upper value of 45% lost, that's about 600g lost. And this is on a unit that is a very juicy target. (very tight formation and slow). If you try something faster and and with looser formation, this is obviously going to be less damage.

    Secondly, most of the killing is done when the unit is within about 100-120m (give or take). Essentially, most damage is taken in the last 2 volleys. So this idea of trying to charge the unit into the doomdiver to see the "trade-value" doesn't make sense.

    How often will swordmasters actually get that close to the doomdiver without killing it? Pretty much never. So the doom diver will pretty much be shooting at the Swordmasters at a range of around 200m -300m. so won't be doing as much damage as in this test.

    I tried the test with a unit like flagellents and they lose 25-35 models on the approach... out of 90.






    Why am I quoted in this post?
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users

    keroro7 said:

    I think gobo-rock-lobber is a problem that has completely disappeared.
    3 GRL vs 2 DD

    Anyone will pick 2-card DD.

    There is no reason to use GRL.
    Monster, CAV, INF Everything is done much better. originally, I thought that INF was GRL and CAV was DD right.
    If reduce the damage, DD will not be able to catch the monsters. so I think that it is good for the cavalry and monsters to eat well, but to make INF less effective. this way, I think we can leave the big-spider. coz they do not have a spear. also they not spam-able.

    That's because rock throwing war machines are pretty underwhelming in general, save for the RoR versions of them.
    It is not that. There is no artillery to do cav, inf, sem at 900 cost anywhere in this game.
    wait. oh, now I see, I guess I bought the game wrong. this is 40K.

    It's a super-over-tech.

    I think GS originally played with Rush builds or CAVs, but now it's too awkward to use a camp build with DD.
    but I'm still rushing and kiting, there is no choice camp. plz devs, I want a 40K DE weapon B)
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,283Registered Users

    keroro7 said:

    I think gobo-rock-lobber is a problem that has completely disappeared.
    3 GRL vs 2 DD

    Anyone will pick 2-card DD.

    There is no reason to use GRL.
    Monster, CAV, INF Everything is done much better. originally, I thought that INF was GRL and CAV was DD right.
    If reduce the damage, DD will not be able to catch the monsters. so I think that it is good for the cavalry and monsters to eat well, but to make INF less effective. this way, I think we can leave the big-spider. coz they do not have a spear. also they not spam-able.

    That's because rock throwing war machines are pretty underwhelming in general, save for the RoR versions of them.
    rock lobber has about the exact performance you'd expect from a cheapo 550g artillery piece whose main purpose is to force you to advance. This is not a 1200g Hellcannon so you shouldn't expect wonders. RoR is accurate and damaging.
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 1,025Registered Users
    I have to say I disagree (admittedly I’m probably biased). GS are not a top tiered MP faction

    Sure their arty is stronger now and they have the best infantry but they have plenty of weaknesses too

    Their lack of flyers and VERY squishy cav means they really struggle to shut down well microed kite builds. The arty now gives them a good answer to this

    They have always struggled to deal with terror causing SEMs and the aranarok is finally an answer

    And their biggest weakness is Lord sniping which VG gives them a little protection against. I’d give VG a slight buff or leave it as it is
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    edited July 6
    -Here you have candy Our cute green friend!

    GS: Waaagh, thank u BOSS, now we can fight better.

    -Wait, it's too big I'll give you another candy here~.

    GS: ???? No, it's all mine. this is all mine, It is my right to live!



    I think, it should have been more careful from the beginning.

    Just raise the other factions little by little. :p


    -off topic-

    I do not know what the patch is based on, but if you do, just fine adjust so that other factions do not feel deprived.
    MA, MD These things make a huge difference even if only -1,+1.
    It's the same with bvl and bvi.
    plz, Do not hear even think about things without logic.

    NC, GS <= Faction that receives excessive pushes and destroys balance. (Who suggested this?)
    SKV, LZ <= Dlc, the advantage has been maximized or the disadvantage has completely disappeared.
    Post edited by keroro7 on
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,169Registered Users
    Say what you will about the doom diver killing infantry, but it’s not winning artillery duels against cannons, and I suspect not against bolt throwers either. Every time I tried I lost the artillery duel badly.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,283Registered Users
    edited July 8

    Say what you will about the doom diver killing infantry, but it’s not winning artillery duels against cannons, and I suspect not against bolt throwers either. Every time I tried I lost the artillery duel badly.

    I would have to test this. Vs Cannons I can believe it, 450 range + massive damage per cannonball seems like it would indeed give cannons an edge. Vs Bolt Throwers, with 380 range in case of HE and 340 in case of DE, I doubt the Elves edge it out significantly (if at all) particularly when Doomdivers have homing missiles.

    In general, people way overstate the prowess of Bolt Throwers in duels. Ever since the word started spreading around, many artillery pieces got buffed and nowadays something like an Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower generally edges it out very narrowly vs an Empire Cannon if it starts at a decent range and doesn't have to walk too much. Occasionally it can also lose if the Empire Cannon gets good RNG (for example, if the first shot kills a Bolt Thrower, it becomes much harder for the Bolt Thrower to win).

    Regardless, the unit is overperforming in a vacuum, saying "yeah but it has counters if you play this and this faction" is not a valid argument to imply that it's fine. What about Beastmen who have no counter? Or Chaos? Or Tomb Kings? The list could go on.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,466Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Say what you will about the doom diver killing infantry, but it’s not winning artillery duels against cannons, and I suspect not against bolt throwers either. Every time I tried I lost the artillery duel badly.


    Regardless, the unit is overperforming in a vacuum, saying "yeah but it has counters if you play this and this faction" is not a valid argument to imply that it's fine. What about Beastmen who have no counter? Or Chaos? Or Tomb Kings? The list could go on.
    Odd choice of factions as example tbh.

    Beastmen are a low armour faction anyway, with only Bestigors now receiving more damage from the Doom Diver. And bringing artillery pieces against the Beastmen is a risky endeavour at the best of times.

    TK vs GS is still strongly in TK favour, only faction that can guarantee it will stop the Waagh for the entire game fairly easily if it wants to. Combine with Undead + strong armoured SEs and the Doom Diver changes virtually nothing here.

    Vs Chaos, yea maybe, but as the content continues to drop for other factions the missing roster parts for Chaos are becoming more and more obvious. Only so much effort should be made nerfing units due to them wrecking factions that are clearly due a rework or additional content. Same reason that other factions weren't nerfed hard due to smashing Skaven pre-DLC, you'll then just have to revert the changes down the line.

    That being said, a nerf is probably warranted but let's not overstate how good a unit the Doomdiver is. At the very most it would likely be +100, more likely to receive +50-75 imo.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,283Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    Green0 said:

    Say what you will about the doom diver killing infantry, but it’s not winning artillery duels against cannons, and I suspect not against bolt throwers either. Every time I tried I lost the artillery duel badly.


    Regardless, the unit is overperforming in a vacuum, saying "yeah but it has counters if you play this and this faction" is not a valid argument to imply that it's fine. What about Beastmen who have no counter? Or Chaos? Or Tomb Kings? The list could go on.
    Odd choice of factions as example tbh.

    Beastmen are a low armour faction anyway, with only Bestigors now receiving more damage from the Doom Diver. And bringing artillery pieces against the Beastmen is a risky endeavour at the best of times.

    TK vs GS is still strongly in TK favour, only faction that can guarantee it will stop the Waagh for the entire game fairly easily if it wants to. Combine with Undead + strong armoured SEs and the Doom Diver changes virtually nothing here.

    Vs Chaos, yea maybe, but as the content continues to drop for other factions the missing roster parts for Chaos are becoming more and more obvious. Only so much effort should be made nerfing units due to them wrecking factions that are clearly due a rework or additional content. Same reason that other factions weren't nerfed hard due to smashing Skaven pre-DLC, you'll then just have to revert the changes down the line.

    That being said, a nerf is probably warranted but let's not overstate how good a unit the Doomdiver is. At the very most it would likely be +100, more likely to receive +50-75 imo.
    well yeah, the choice of factions is odd indeed, because I'm trying not to tie my discussion to any 1 specific faction in an effort not to be biased... still in my opinion it was wrong to give it a complete AP swap and pretend the cost can stay the same. This thing currently murders elite infantry while units like Big Uns murder anything else.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,256Registered Users
    edited July 8
    Green0 said:

    Carrion or Fellbats stunlock Dragons, Eagles, any single entity flyer apparently so apparently they win air fights.

    Does this claim even have any data to back? Coz it seems to be completely false and flawed down right to the core. Absurd exaggeration, i means its not even that, carrion vs dragon itself is completely unthinkable to even begin with.

    Post edited by yst on
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  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 377Registered Users
    My thoughts:

    - Slightly nerf Doomdiver AP ratio. They're indeed too good now for their low cost, high accuracy and the fact you can use them well against a high variety of targets unlike most artillery. If the idea is to make them good monster killers, instead reduce explosion damage.

    - Definitely don't buff Vindictive glare. It's a toxic spell, almost as bad for the game as spirit leech. It's very viable to snipe casters and the like now for how cheap it is.

    - Arachnaroks are fine, except that the Queen's summons should only last 60 seconds so there can't be more than 1 at a time.


    To make Greenskins better against large armored units, I propose:
    - +2 MA for all boar boyz units.
    - Give Grimgor the mass and knockback characteristics of Throgg and +5 bonus vs. large.


    Other proposals for Greenskins:
    - Change Waaagh melee attack bonus to +20% instead of a fixed +20 but make it a free one use only army-wide ability with the following new extra: it randomly makes either 1 unit of goblins or orc boyz arrive as reinforcements from a random edge of the map.
    - -50 gold for orc boyz, savage orc boyz, regular goblins and night goblins. The strength of the Greenskin roster should be mass chaff, not an elite frontline or archer spam, which is the meta right now.
    - +33% damage to fanatics but make them 1 use only and automatically trigger when an enemy comes within range. On tabletop fanatics were a terror to build your strategy around. They should be comparable in strength to miners with blasting charges.
    - -100 gold to Skarsnik.
    - +100 AP damage and -100 regular damage for the Orc Warboss on foot; -50 gold for the boar mount.
    - +5 bonus vs. infantry for Giant.
    - -25 gold for the boar chariot.
    - Give the orc warboss a chariot mount option.
    - Azhag -50 base cost, +50 Wyvern cost.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 944Registered Users
    In terms of raw, total balance GS are in a pretty decent place. They aren't top-tier, but they're also not bad; they certainly don't need either an overall buff or an overall nerf, they're sort of about where I would like every faction to be power-wise. The latest buff was clearly aimed at providing tools to help with the issue of big, armored monsters bullying GS more or less at will, and it definitely did; I am strongly opposed to reverting those buffs. Doom Divers are extremely easy to shut down - a super fast light cavalry, hounds, a cannon, long-ranged missile troops or magic can take them offline very rapidly - and Arachnaroks still suffer from low Leadership like most GS units.

    That said, there are a bunch of things about Greenskins that are just. . . Sort of weird. Like, why are Boar Boyz so cheap and useless? Why are Durkit's Squigs so cheap compared to standard Squig Hoppers? How come Warbosses are completely lame, with basically no redeeming qualities? And the Waaagh could definitely use a rework into a global army ability of some kind, with more stringent requirements to activate; my suggestion would be to shift most of the buff into CB and have it trigger automatically when the army Lord charges into combat, instead of making it a Lord ability that can be triggered at any time and is affected by magic. Right now, the Waaagh is too flexible and too powerful while also being weirdly vulnerable to being completely shut down by a few specific abilities, and no part of that really makes sense.

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,283Registered Users
    I was recently shown a specific way of playing GS that led me to believe that the GS-LZ matchup might not be as one-sided as some claim. I can believe that it can be a bit LZ-sided, but it seems that the GS have options here. Regardless, keeping a unit in broken state because of 1 matchup seems very wrong, let's say we find some other way of balancing for Dinos, there is no excuse why a catapult with homing missiles should get a complete AP swap with no cost increase.

    What you mention about shutting it down applies to any artillery in the game really - in truth any well-screened artillery piece is about equally as difficult to shut down. Greenskins if anything have a lot of options to defend the backline in the form of cheap and cost-effective Spider Riders, good archers and the ability to go wide very easily.

    About GS being currently mid-tier, well it depends how you define mid-tier. I can see them struggling vs Undead, but other than that it seems that GS are a very flexible faction with very few roster weaknesses currently. I would rate them top5-top7, not the best but also a bit underrated. Their main strength is the fact that they can play so many different styles fairly easily: infantry heavy, kite, artillery and so on.

    About Boar cavalry being weak, I can agree with this up to a degree, as usual it depends what unit type you are fighting. Let's put it this way: a unit like Necropolis Knights with Halberds is probably among the worst in its category, but it will do the job in the right circumstance. My personal impression is that at least the Boar cavalry in the 900-1100 price range does well on the charge in cavalry vs cavalry fights, although I'd have to run tests.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Posts: 262Registered Users
    edited July 8
    I'd like to see waagh rebalanced.

    Give it a leadership and charge bonus buff, lose the ridiculously high MA buff.

    It can therefore help on the charge or in tricky leadership positions. It offers more variety in play style than the front line smash which leads to kite builds only.

    I'd also be interested in grimgor having it map wide and other Lords having it in a 55M radius. Gives a broader utility to grimgor

    Alternatively.. Differing waagh effects for each Lord perhaps?
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 944Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    I was recently shown a specific way of playing GS that led me to believe that the GS-LZ matchup might not be as one-sided as some claim. I can believe that it can be a bit LZ-sided, but it seems that the GS have options here. Regardless, keeping a unit in broken state because of 1 matchup seems very wrong, let's say we find some other way of balancing for Dinos, there is no excuse why a catapult with homing missiles should get a complete AP swap with no cost increase.

    What you mention about shutting it down applies to any artillery in the game really - in truth any well-screened artillery piece is about equally as difficult to shut down. Greenskins if anything have a lot of options to defend the backline in the form of cheap and cost-effective Spider Riders, good archers and the ability to go wide very easily.

    About GS being currently mid-tier, well it depends how you define mid-tier. I can see them struggling vs Undead, but other than that it seems that GS are a very flexible faction with very few roster weaknesses currently. I would rate them top5-top7, not the best but also a bit underrated. Their main strength is the fact that they can play so many different styles fairly easily: infantry heavy, kite, artillery and so on.

    About Boar cavalry being weak, I can agree with this up to a degree, as usual it depends what unit type you are fighting. Let's put it this way: a unit like Necropolis Knights with Halberds is probably among the worst in its category, but it will do the job in the right circumstance. My personal impression is that at least the Boar cavalry in the 900-1100 price range does well on the charge in cavalry vs cavalry fights, although I'd have to run tests.

    Being 'in the top 5-7' seems, to me, to be perfectly fine balance. I'm not really concerned with making increasingly minor tweaks to factions in that area.

    I'm also not talking about one specific matchup. A lot of factions have access to large, high-mass, armored terror-causing monsters; HE, DE, LZD, Chaos, Norsca, TK, even Empire. Prior to the buffs, these units were extremely difficult for GS to handle and forced you to play a very predictable game because the one true strategy against GS was to use multiple terror-causing monsters, especially fliers, to goon out high-value targets basically at will. Now that's a little bit higher risk, which opens up the play space a lot.

    Doom Divers are in fact much easier to shut down than many other artillery pieces. I'll give an example that GS players especially are very familiar with; if you get a clean rear charge onto the crew of a Dwarf Cannon with a unit of Wolf Riders, the Wolf Riders will probably lose outright, and even if they are winning combat - say because you pop the Waaagh just as they charge - they'll take so long to do it that the Dwarf player will easily be able to turn around and shoot or counter-charge you. This is also sometimes true of Empire artillery, though Empire crews take a lot more damage. Charge Wolf Riders into an enemy DD, though, and you'll break the crew pretty quickly and chase them off the map. Having no armor, low HP, and low LD on the artillery crew does in fact matter, because it means that even if it's a suicide run the enemy can sacrifice a 300 or 450 unit of fast light cav to take your artillery crew offline and actually accomplish something.

    As for the Boars, yeah BBBU are basically ok - they aren't strong but they're also not expensive by the standards of heavy cavalry, and they do pretty well in head to head cavalry fights which is their main job. The ones who suck are the standard Boar Boyz, who are cheap as hell but so god-awful that they still aren't worth taking.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,283Registered Users
    edited July 8
    well, I got no issue with GS being particularly overperforming, I would rate them around HE level, strong but not broken BUT with the difference that HE are generally strong-ish into undead while GS are not, which probably puts them a bit below HE levels in terms of versatility but not incredibly so, you also gain advantages in the process, for example easier matchups vs Empire or Bretonnia.

    About armored monsters, I'd like to think that an "armored" monster is one that has 100+ armor, as such, many of the factions you mention don't have armored monsters. Something like a Stardragon has huge hitbox and only 80 armor - that means that with a combo like Rusty Arrerz, or Withering/Plague of Rust spells u can very comfortably take it down even with Goblin archers without resorting to Orc ones. Hell, even without spell support, it's 80 armor we're talking about, volume of fire does a lot here from something like 3x90 model-Goblin archers, test in an actual battle to see it. As such, it seems that the monsters GS mainly struggle to deal with are 120+ armor ones, namely Bastiladon, Leviathan, Stegadons and so on. Even here, I was shown that it's not impossible to beat these setups and my opponent brought exactly 0 Doom Divers in the 3 games we played to beat my Lizardmen (I don't wanna disclose his list but my list was something like Mazda on Stegadon, 3 Kroxis, 3 Skink Cohort, 3 Chameleons, 1 Ancient Stegadon, 1 Carnosaur, pretty standard anti-GS build allegedly and I won only 1-3 matchups). In fact, I must say that I struggle to see how a Doomdiver would counter armored monsters anyway, personally I'd rather have Orc Arrerz than a Doomdiver, they are more versatile and can probably do more damage, reposition and not be useless once the monsters arrive to your frontline.

    About the Wolf Riders example, you still need to get on top of the Doomdiver, something that GS can prevent you from doing very easily with plenty of light cavalry and missile units and slow effects. This argument I find very weak, it's essentially saying "if you capture the artillery piece, you win more". I'm interested in lose-less mechanics in contrast, if I managed to get on top of your Dwarven artillery piece, I could argue that vs Dwarfs I could always bring Squig Hoppers to capture it if Wolf Riders won't do the trick. The main problem, like I said, is getting there, not defeating the crew which is very negligible.

    I do agree the Arachnaroks are fine (including RoR), I've given it some thought and I don't think they need a cost increase although the RoR version could use tweaking to its summons (either not see them last 3 minutes, or raise cooldown to 90-120s).
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,786Registered Users

    In terms of raw, total balance GS are in a pretty decent place. They aren't top-tier, but they're also not bad; they certainly don't need either an overall buff or an overall nerf, they're sort of about where I would like every faction to be power-wise. The latest buff was clearly aimed at providing tools to help with the issue of big, armored monsters bullying GS more or less at will, and it definitely did; I am strongly opposed to reverting those buffs. Doom Divers are extremely easy to shut down - a super fast light cavalry, hounds, a cannon, long-ranged missile troops or magic can take them offline very rapidly - and Arachnaroks still suffer from low Leadership like most GS units.

    That said, there are a bunch of things about Greenskins that are just. . . Sort of weird. Like, why are Boar Boyz so cheap and useless? Why are Durkit's Squigs so cheap compared to standard Squig Hoppers? How come Warbosses are completely lame, with basically no redeeming qualities? And the Waaagh could definitely use a rework into a global army ability of some kind, with more stringent requirements to activate; my suggestion would be to shift most of the buff into CB and have it trigger automatically when the army Lord charges into combat, instead of making it a Lord ability that can be triggered at any time and is affected by magic. Right now, the Waaagh is too flexible and too powerful while also being weirdly vulnerable to being completely shut down by a few specific abilities, and no part of that really makes sense.

    I really like that idea of the waagh triggering when the lord charges! Cool idea, me likes.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 732Registered Users
    - Slightly nerf Doomdiver AP ratio. They're indeed too good now for their low cost, high accuracy and the fact you can use them well against a high variety of targets unlike most artillery. If the idea is to make them good monster killers, instead reduce explosion damage.
    What I think Might prefer to see is them getting weaker and cheaper. Also would be cool if GS got a really cheap spear chucka artillery piece. Something like a worse version dwarfen bolt thrower.


    - Definitely don't buff Vindictive glare. It's a toxic spell, almost as bad for the game as spirit leech. It's very viable to snipe casters and the like now for how cheap it is.
    agreed


    - Arachnaroks are fine, except that the Queen's summons should only last 60 seconds so there can't be more than 1 at a time.
    60 sec might be a bit too low. Maybe start with 90s and see what happens

    To make Greenskins better against large armored units, I propose:
    - +2 MA for all boar boyz units.
    - Give Grimgor the mass and knockback characteristics of Throgg and +5 bonus vs. large.

    Good proposals. I actually find boar bozy to be OK. +2 MA won't make them broken, so could be OK thou I don't really see the need for this. Good idea for Grimgor. He should also be a bit tougher to kill

    Other proposals for Greenskins:
    - Change Waaagh melee attack bonus to +20% instead of a fixed +20 but make it a free one use only army-wide ability with the following new extra: it randomly makes either 1 unit of goblins or orc boyz arrive as reinforcements from a random edge of the map.

    this random spawn might be too random. I definitely think Waaagh needs changes. I like the idea that someone else gave: Waaagh triggers automatically when the lrod charges.

    - -50 gold for orc boyz, savage orc boyz, regular goblins and night goblins. The strength of the Greenskin roster should be mass chaff, not an elite frontline or archer spam, which is the meta right now.
    I think this is waaaaaay to much of a buff. Regular goblins for 250g would be way too strong. Same with night goblins for 350g. They would be able to beat any infantry for that cost. I think they could be made cheaper, but with some slight nerfs.

    - +33% damage to fanatics but make them 1 use only and automatically trigger when an enemy comes within range. On tabletop fanatics were a terror to build your strategy around. They should be comparable in strength to miners with blasting charges.
    I like the 1 use only with +33% damage. Though autocast might not be what we want

    -100 gold to Skarsnik.
    That is fine.

    - +100 AP damage and -100 regular damage for the Orc Warboss on foot; -50 gold for the boar mount.
    This will not make him viable. I think he needs to get some cool army buffs.
    A bunch of aura buffs. Much like the Old blood has vs Groq Gar


    - +5 bonus vs. infantry for Giant.
    This will do nothing for the Giant. I propose to make the Giant a "savage" giant. Lower his armor and gain 25% physical resist and speed +6

    -25 gold for the boar chariot.
    Sure. I think Chariots are OK. But 25g will not really make a difference

    - Give the orc warboss a chariot mount option.
    Great idea! Did not think of this.

    - Azhag -50 base cost, +50 Wyvern cost.



  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,283Registered Users

    - Slightly nerf Doomdiver AP ratio. They're indeed too good now for their low cost, high accuracy and the fact you can use them well against a high variety of targets unlike most artillery. If the idea is to make them good monster killers, instead reduce explosion damage.
    What I think Might prefer to see is them getting weaker and cheaper. Also would be cool if GS got a really cheap spear chucka artillery piece. Something like a worse version dwarfen bolt thrower.


    - Definitely don't buff Vindictive glare. It's a toxic spell, almost as bad for the game as spirit leech. It's very viable to snipe casters and the like now for how cheap it is.
    agreed


    - Arachnaroks are fine, except that the Queen's summons should only last 60 seconds so there can't be more than 1 at a time.
    60 sec might be a bit too low. Maybe start with 90s and see what happens

    To make Greenskins better against large armored units, I propose:
    - +2 MA for all boar boyz units.
    - Give Grimgor the mass and knockback characteristics of Throgg and +5 bonus vs. large.

    Good proposals. I actually find boar bozy to be OK. +2 MA won't make them broken, so could be OK thou I don't really see the need for this. Good idea for Grimgor. He should also be a bit tougher to kill

    Other proposals for Greenskins:
    - Change Waaagh melee attack bonus to +20% instead of a fixed +20 but make it a free one use only army-wide ability with the following new extra: it randomly makes either 1 unit of goblins or orc boyz arrive as reinforcements from a random edge of the map.

    this random spawn might be too random. I definitely think Waaagh needs changes. I like the idea that someone else gave: Waaagh triggers automatically when the lrod charges.

    - -50 gold for orc boyz, savage orc boyz, regular goblins and night goblins. The strength of the Greenskin roster should be mass chaff, not an elite frontline or archer spam, which is the meta right now.
    I think this is waaaaaay to much of a buff. Regular goblins for 250g would be way too strong. Same with night goblins for 350g. They would be able to beat any infantry for that cost. I think they could be made cheaper, but with some slight nerfs.

    - +33% damage to fanatics but make them 1 use only and automatically trigger when an enemy comes within range. On tabletop fanatics were a terror to build your strategy around. They should be comparable in strength to miners with blasting charges.
    I like the 1 use only with +33% damage. Though autocast might not be what we want

    -100 gold to Skarsnik.
    That is fine.

    - +100 AP damage and -100 regular damage for the Orc Warboss on foot; -50 gold for the boar mount.
    This will not make him viable. I think he needs to get some cool army buffs.
    A bunch of aura buffs. Much like the Old blood has vs Groq Gar


    - +5 bonus vs. infantry for Giant.
    This will do nothing for the Giant. I propose to make the Giant a "savage" giant. Lower his armor and gain 25% physical resist and speed +6

    -25 gold for the boar chariot.
    Sure. I think Chariots are OK. But 25g will not really make a difference

    - Give the orc warboss a chariot mount option.
    Great idea! Did not think of this.

    - Azhag -50 base cost, +50 Wyvern cost.



    these are good proposals except the Goblin and Orc Boyz one which I think are already competitive units. About Boar cavalry, IF they do deserve buffs, I'd like only low-tier units to see buffs. That said, sometimes even an innocuous +2 MA can have a lot of impact particularly on inexpensive units (e.g. regular 650g Boar Boyz). My honest opinion is that GS infantry is the best in the game right now and this has to be compensated by giving something. That something is generally cavalry, which right now is "bad but not unplayable and can situationally work defensively" which I think is the perfect spot for GS cavalry to be in.

    About Doomdiver, if they could remove splash so that it kills only say 1 Greatsword/Swordmaster models per shot while doing the same damage to armored monsters, I think it would be a good unit. Spear Chukka could also be added to GS as a bonus for the faction, they deserve it. The issue with Doomdiver is that the buff was meant to help vs armored monsters, it makes 0 sense that GS get extra help in one of their strongest suits.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 944Registered Users
    I've played a lot of Greenskins, from WH1 right up through to now. I'm not a high-level tournament player by any means, but everything I'm saying is my opinion from a lot of games played.

    Even if it only has 80 armor, a dragon can still be a huge problem for Greenskins. Two dragons, or three, was incredibly difficult to deal with before the buffs; because almost the entire Greenskin roster has notably low Leadership, terror-bombing has always been hugely effective against them. You can't afford enough Nasty Skulkers and cavalry to cover your entire line and still have a line worth covering, which means that absent something that is a real and present threat to large monsters you ended up just giving away part of your army for basically free. The Arachnarok buff was mainly valuable not in that it made Arachnaroks themselves indispensable - I still usually don't bring them - but in that it made players a lot warier about committing heavily to the terror bomb, in case they ran into double spiders or something.

    Doom Divers. . . I mean, yeah, they're better than most artillery in their price range, but IMO most artillery is pretty **** for its cost and that's a bad thing. Doom Divers are comparable in terms of cost-effectiveness to Dwarf Cannons, but with a slightly different niche; they do a good bit less raw damage per hit, but have homing shots and so are much more likely to hit. Personally, I think this is about the level that 'good' artillery should be functioning at. I agree that they're much better than, say, Blessed Trebuchets - but that's a problem with the Trebuchets, not the Doom Divers. Doom Divers are fine. If somebody chooses to play a defensive army built around trying to keep their artillery alive to bombard the enemy, great; that should be a viable option, and artillery should overall be strong enough to make it useful.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,283Registered Users
    edited July 8

    I've played a lot of Greenskins, from WH1 right up through to now. I'm not a high-level tournament player by any means, but everything I'm saying is my opinion from a lot of games played.

    Even if it only has 80 armor, a dragon can still be a huge problem for Greenskins. Two dragons, or three, was incredibly difficult to deal with before the buffs; because almost the entire Greenskin roster has notably low Leadership, terror-bombing has always been hugely effective against them. You can't afford enough Nasty Skulkers and cavalry to cover your entire line and still have a line worth covering, which means that absent something that is a real and present threat to large monsters you ended up just giving away part of your army for basically free. The Arachnarok buff was mainly valuable not in that it made Arachnaroks themselves indispensable - I still usually don't bring them - but in that it made players a lot warier about committing heavily to the terror bomb, in case they ran into double spiders or something.

    Doom Divers. . . I mean, yeah, they're better than most artillery in their price range, but IMO most artillery is pretty **** for its cost and that's a bad thing. Doom Divers are comparable in terms of cost-effectiveness to Dwarf Cannons, but with a slightly different niche; they do a good bit less raw damage per hit, but have homing shots and so are much more likely to hit. Personally, I think this is about the level that 'good' artillery should be functioning at. I agree that they're much better than, say, Blessed Trebuchets - but that's a problem with the Trebuchets, not the Doom Divers. Doom Divers are fine. If somebody chooses to play a defensive army built around trying to keep their artillery alive to bombard the enemy, great; that should be a viable option, and artillery should overall be strong enough to make it useful.

    Doomdiver currently is basically a Hellcannon no matter how you look at it. I'm willing to concede that due to lower LD, not unbreakable, different roster, 3 models etc etc. the price could be around 1050-1100 instead of the 1200 you pay for the Hellcannon. Unless you think a Hellcannon is not worth the 1200g, there is no way a Hellcannon = Doomdiver compares to a 800g Dwarf Cannon, that's 400g difference that are very noticeable in terms of impact during gameplay.

    About Dragons, yeah in QB you can bring 2 Stardragons but in tournaments you can't. If they bring 2 Stardragons/Black Dragons, their army is gonna be very small and as such you can abuse your numbers. The name of the game is prevent them from getting too much value with their breaths, i.e. not clump up. Black Orcs, for example, in my experience are not ideal targets for breaths due to somewhat loose formation and low model count, it's up to you of course to keep it that way. Any Dragon other than Star/Black, in contrast, doesn't have a lot of armor and as such is vulnerable to mass shooting. It also seems to me that any Dragon other than Star loses heavily to Arachnaroks in melee especially since it seems the stagger animations of the Arachnarok are stronger than those of the Dragon. In short, I can't say I agree with this, in my experience something like 1 Rusty Arrerz + 2 Goblin Archers + Effage can remove 50% HP from a Star Dragon if not rout it. I think Greenskins are in a very good spot to take on 1 Dragon, I am not sure about 2+ although normally with 2+ the rest of your army starts to drastically decline in quality.

    About Nasty Skulkers, I think you can roll with 1 unit only and have it in the back. You play compact, win vs kite (because of armor) and win vs melee (due to utility of your lord and strong infantry).

    To be clear, my only gripe is with Doomdiver performance vs infantry. The rest is just an enumeration of what tools GS have to prevent abuse but I do believe they need these tools (Smoke Bombs, Gork’ll Fix It, Effage, Arachnaroks, Azhag...) and these are also the tools that make GS fun to play as an infantry faction.

    I think Waagh still leads to a tad too unidimensional games but it seems the devs are set on keeping it as a faction mechanic. I don’t think it’s a bad mechanic per se but it let’s weird things happen, such as Goblins being better than Orc Boyz in spite of costing less, or 3 (4?) Spider Riders beating 2 Wild Riders is Waagh is active.
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users
    Hellcannon does not need line of sight, very different units.

    I thought Doom Divers were overpowered against certain factions prior to the buff.
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