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Greenskins balancing state.

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  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 903Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    I've played a lot of Greenskins, from WH1 right up through to now. I'm not a high-level tournament player by any means, but everything I'm saying is my opinion from a lot of games played.

    Even if it only has 80 armor, a dragon can still be a huge problem for Greenskins. Two dragons, or three, was incredibly difficult to deal with before the buffs; because almost the entire Greenskin roster has notably low Leadership, terror-bombing has always been hugely effective against them. You can't afford enough Nasty Skulkers and cavalry to cover your entire line and still have a line worth covering, which means that absent something that is a real and present threat to large monsters you ended up just giving away part of your army for basically free. The Arachnarok buff was mainly valuable not in that it made Arachnaroks themselves indispensable - I still usually don't bring them - but in that it made players a lot warier about committing heavily to the terror bomb, in case they ran into double spiders or something.

    Doom Divers. . . I mean, yeah, they're better than most artillery in their price range, but IMO most artillery is pretty **** for its cost and that's a bad thing. Doom Divers are comparable in terms of cost-effectiveness to Dwarf Cannons, but with a slightly different niche; they do a good bit less raw damage per hit, but have homing shots and so are much more likely to hit. Personally, I think this is about the level that 'good' artillery should be functioning at. I agree that they're much better than, say, Blessed Trebuchets - but that's a problem with the Trebuchets, not the Doom Divers. Doom Divers are fine. If somebody chooses to play a defensive army built around trying to keep their artillery alive to bombard the enemy, great; that should be a viable option, and artillery should overall be strong enough to make it useful.

    Doomdiver currently is basically a Hellcannon no matter how you look at it. I'm willing to concede that due to lower LD, not unbreakable, different roster, 3 models etc etc. the price could be around 1050-1100 instead of the 1200 you pay for the Hellcannon. Unless you think a Hellcannon is not worth the 1200g, there is no way a Hellcannon = Doomdiver compares to a 800g Dwarf Cannon, that's 400g difference that are very noticeable in terms of impact during gameplay.

    About Dragons, yeah in QB you can bring 2 Stardragons but in tournaments you can't. If they bring 2 Stardragons/Black Dragons, their army is gonna be very small and as such you can abuse your numbers. The name of the game is prevent them from getting too much value with their breaths, i.e. not clump up. Black Orcs, for example, in my experience are not ideal targets for breaths due to somewhat loose formation and low model count, it's up to you of course to keep it that way. Any Dragon other than Star/Black, in contrast, doesn't have a lot of armor and as such is vulnerable to mass shooting. It also seems to me that any Dragon other than Star loses heavily to Arachnaroks in melee especially since it seems the stagger animations of the Arachnarok are stronger than those of the Dragon. In short, I can't say I agree with this, in my experience something like 1 Rusty Arrerz + 2 Goblin Archers + Effage can remove 50% HP from a Star Dragon if not rout it. I think Greenskins are in a very good spot to take on 1 Dragon, I am not sure about 2+ although normally with 2+ the rest of your army starts to drastically decline in quality.

    About Nasty Skulkers, I think you can roll with 1 unit only and have it in the back. You play compact, win vs kite (because of armor) and win vs melee (due to utility of your lord and strong infantry).

    To be clear, my only gripe is with Doomdiver performance vs infantry. The rest is just an enumeration of what tools GS have to prevent abuse but I do believe they need these tools (Smoke Bombs, Gork’ll Fix It, Effage, Arachnaroks, Azhag...) and these are also the tools that make GS fun to play as an infantry faction.

    I think Waagh still leads to a tad too unidimensional games but it seems the devs are set on keeping it as a faction mechanic. I don’t think it’s a bad mechanic per se but it let’s weird things happen, such as Goblins being better than Orc Boyz in spite of costing less, or 3 (4?) Spider Riders beating 2 Wild Riders is Waagh is active.

    I definitely agree about the Waaagh, I don't think it's implemented properly. Good idea in theory, but the execution has weird knock-on effects like you mentioned.

    As for the artillery, I don't think it's in question that Hellcannons are overpriced? They miss way too much to be worth 1200; in order to get value you'd have to land solid hits on 4-5 different high-value infantry units, or drop several direct hits into a blob. They could be 1000, IMO, and definitely still not be overpowered; they're paying a huge premium for an unbreakable crew, which is definitely to have but not THAT nice.
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    I've played a lot of Greenskins, from WH1 right up through to now. I'm not a high-level tournament player by any means, but everything I'm saying is my opinion from a lot of games played.

    Even if it only has 80 armor, a dragon can still be a huge problem for Greenskins. Two dragons, or three, was incredibly difficult to deal with before the buffs; because almost the entire Greenskin roster has notably low Leadership, terror-bombing has always been hugely effective against them. You can't afford enough Nasty Skulkers and cavalry to cover your entire line and still have a line worth covering, which means that absent something that is a real and present threat to large monsters you ended up just giving away part of your army for basically free. The Arachnarok buff was mainly valuable not in that it made Arachnaroks themselves indispensable - I still usually don't bring them - but in that it made players a lot warier about committing heavily to the terror bomb, in case they ran into double spiders or something.

    Doom Divers. . . I mean, yeah, they're better than most artillery in their price range, but IMO most artillery is pretty **** for its cost and that's a bad thing. Doom Divers are comparable in terms of cost-effectiveness to Dwarf Cannons, but with a slightly different niche; they do a good bit less raw damage per hit, but have homing shots and so are much more likely to hit. Personally, I think this is about the level that 'good' artillery should be functioning at. I agree that they're much better than, say, Blessed Trebuchets - but that's a problem with the Trebuchets, not the Doom Divers. Doom Divers are fine. If somebody chooses to play a defensive army built around trying to keep their artillery alive to bombard the enemy, great; that should be a viable option, and artillery should overall be strong enough to make it useful.

    Doomdiver currently is basically a Hellcannon no matter how you look at it. I'm willing to concede that due to lower LD, not unbreakable, different roster, 3 models etc etc. the price could be around 1050-1100 instead of the 1200 you pay for the Hellcannon. Unless you think a Hellcannon is not worth the 1200g, there is no way a Hellcannon = Doomdiver compares to a 800g Dwarf Cannon, that's 400g difference that are very noticeable in terms of impact during gameplay.

    About Dragons, yeah in QB you can bring 2 Stardragons but in tournaments you can't. If they bring 2 Stardragons/Black Dragons, their army is gonna be very small and as such you can abuse your numbers. The name of the game is prevent them from getting too much value with their breaths, i.e. not clump up. Black Orcs, for example, in my experience are not ideal targets for breaths due to somewhat loose formation and low model count, it's up to you of course to keep it that way. Any Dragon other than Star/Black, in contrast, doesn't have a lot of armor and as such is vulnerable to mass shooting. It also seems to me that any Dragon other than Star loses heavily to Arachnaroks in melee especially since it seems the stagger animations of the Arachnarok are stronger than those of the Dragon. In short, I can't say I agree with this, in my experience something like 1 Rusty Arrerz + 2 Goblin Archers + Effage can remove 50% HP from a Star Dragon if not rout it. I think Greenskins are in a very good spot to take on 1 Dragon, I am not sure about 2+ although normally with 2+ the rest of your army starts to drastically decline in quality.

    About Nasty Skulkers, I think you can roll with 1 unit only and have it in the back. You play compact, win vs kite (because of armor) and win vs melee (due to utility of your lord and strong infantry).

    To be clear, my only gripe is with Doomdiver performance vs infantry. The rest is just an enumeration of what tools GS have to prevent abuse but I do believe they need these tools (Smoke Bombs, Gork’ll Fix It, Effage, Arachnaroks, Azhag...) and these are also the tools that make GS fun to play as an infantry faction.

    I think Waagh still leads to a tad too unidimensional games but it seems the devs are set on keeping it as a faction mechanic. I don’t think it’s a bad mechanic per se but it let’s weird things happen, such as Goblins being better than Orc Boyz in spite of costing less, or 3 (4?) Spider Riders beating 2 Wild Riders is Waagh is active.

    I definitely agree about the Waaagh, I don't think it's implemented properly. Good idea in theory, but the execution has weird knock-on effects like you mentioned.

    As for the artillery, I don't think it's in question that Hellcannons are overpriced? They miss way too much to be worth 1200; in order to get value you'd have to land solid hits on 4-5 different high-value infantry units, or drop several direct hits into a blob. They could be 1000, IMO, and definitely still not be overpowered; they're paying a huge premium for an unbreakable crew, which is definitely to have but not THAT nice.
    I've nearly lost a lagging game to 6 Hellcannons and missle cav, but then it lagged out.

    Artillery is more broken than what you are making it seem like, many types of armies that players don't bother to use anymore are countered by them.
  • saellsaell Posts: 471Registered Users
    If we would want to change the waaagh i would suggest to take a look at the sword of chaos ability. Like giving every "orc and goblin" units the waaagh ability, like gunpowder units in vp roster have that extra powder ability, which triggers when a unit is charging in melee and is recharging in melee. So u could prevent to delay waaagh with arcane unforging or khateps magical item
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,382Registered Users
    saell said:

    If we would want to change the waaagh i would suggest to take a look at the sword of chaos ability. Like giving every "orc and goblin" units the waaagh ability, like gunpowder units in vp roster have that extra powder ability, which triggers when a unit is charging in melee and is recharging in melee. So u could prevent to delay waaagh with arcane unforging or khateps magical item

    The difference is that units don't Waagh alone, the army Waaghs together. If the Waagh was changed to be more thematic it seems like it should be closer to how Murderous Prowess works (X amount of kills then army waaghs) or based upon the number of units in combat. So maybe if you have +50% of your forces fighting then the waagh would go off. Although in all honesty the second one could end up being a buff half the time.

    I think the best balance would be to just reduce the MA a small amount again if required.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,179Registered Users
    edited July 9
    OrkLads said:

    saell said:

    If we would want to change the waaagh i would suggest to take a look at the sword of chaos ability. Like giving every "orc and goblin" units the waaagh ability, like gunpowder units in vp roster have that extra powder ability, which triggers when a unit is charging in melee and is recharging in melee. So u could prevent to delay waaagh with arcane unforging or khateps magical item

    The difference is that units don't Waagh alone, the army Waaghs together. If the Waagh was changed to be more thematic it seems like it should be closer to how Murderous Prowess works (X amount of kills then army waaghs) or based upon the number of units in combat. So maybe if you have +50% of your forces fighting then the waagh would go off. Although in all honesty the second one could end up being a buff half the time.

    I think the best balance would be to just reduce the MA a small amount again if required.
    the issue with reducing the MA buff in my opinion is that Waagh is "kinda the GS thing". Like, imagine if you had Martial Prowess on a unit but the unit is only barely above water level with MP active and below when it's gone. Nobody wants an unexciting ability that is more a burden than anything. I think it's OK for Waagh to be a bit OP, in my opinion currently it's possible to survive a Waagh while hard (as it should be) with most factions while going in melee... The bigger issue is that some unit types overperform within the Waagh, for example 300g Goblins and 400g Spider Riders.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 698Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    OrkLads said:

    saell said:

    If we would want to change the waaagh i would suggest to take a look at the sword of chaos ability. Like giving every "orc and goblin" units the waaagh ability, like gunpowder units in vp roster have that extra powder ability, which triggers when a unit is charging in melee and is recharging in melee. So u could prevent to delay waaagh with arcane unforging or khateps magical item

    The difference is that units don't Waagh alone, the army Waaghs together. If the Waagh was changed to be more thematic it seems like it should be closer to how Murderous Prowess works (X amount of kills then army waaghs) or based upon the number of units in combat. So maybe if you have +50% of your forces fighting then the waagh would go off. Although in all honesty the second one could end up being a buff half the time.

    I think the best balance would be to just reduce the MA a small amount again if required.
    the issue with reducing the MA buff in my opinion is that Waagh is "kinda the GS thing". Like, imagine if you had Martial Prowess on a unit but the unit is only barely above water level with MP active and below when it's gone. Nobody wants an unexciting ability that is more a burden than anything. I think it's OK for Waagh to be a bit OP, in my opinion currently it's possible to survive a Waagh while hard (as it should be) with most factions while going in melee... The bigger issue is that some unit types overperform within the Waagh, for example 300g Goblins and 400g Spider Riders.
    Then maybe Waaagh should be a percentage increase in stats. Say a 50% increase in MA. I personally think Waaagh should maybe add a bit less offensive abilites and increase LD for the duration (maybe also make ITP).
  • Slade_XSlade_X Posts: 117Registered Users
    Leave da boyz alone! gitz.....
  • Slade_XSlade_X Posts: 117Registered Users
    But seriously, i think the ladz are in a decent spot.

    The anti large to the spider queen has made certain match ups a bit easier...

    The doom diver is pretty good for its price, but still very fragile. It losers a artey fight to everything but a treb i think. Also, any melee action at all and the boyz leg it. In terms of killing cav.... it used to kill models before the buff, it kills models after the buff. Theirs no bonus for over kill.

    For me, GS and the waaaaaghhh are playing exactly how they should. Big melee rush builds smashing anything that takes them head on. If you charge a load of inf straight in to GS you probabley deserve to lose... thats there strength. But they are not so hard to out smart on the whole....

    I rate GS match ups as follows. I am well aware people have different play styles, but for me vs a player of equal skill.

    Very Unfavourable - VP, TK

    Unfavourable - LZD, VC

    Even - DE, SKVN, WE, BM, WOC

    Favourable - HE, EMP, DAWI, BRET

    Very Favourable - NORSCA

    That looks a pretty even balance to me.

    The problem, as always with balance..... If you buff/nerf something because of a specific match up.... it shifts all the other matches too.

    I'm glad Vindictive glare took a big nerf, it deserved it. I think these new changes are compensation.

    If i ask you the question..... I swap my spider and doom diver buff for the old vindictive glare....what is you answer?

    I think if you play elf faction, you will probably keep the spider and diver right?
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,771Registered Users
    Are trolls ok now? or they need some buffs?
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,179Registered Users
    edited July 9
    Slade_X said:


    If i ask you the question..... I swap my spider and doom diver buff for the old vindictive glare....what is you answer?

    I think if you play elf faction, you will probably keep the spider and diver right?

    it depends really, IF VG countered ONLY Alarielle on Eagle, then I'd take old VG back in a heartbeat. I have no problem bringing something that isn't Alarielle to the matchup, heck I won't even pick AU, it will make the matchup harder but by no means unwinnable.

    The problem is that VG countered mages on horse and such, so that would be a bit of a bigger issue. But yeah in a vacuum I'd rather no Alarielle and no OP Doomdiver than having both.
  • Slade_XSlade_X Posts: 117Registered Users
    edited July 9
    VG still does a decent about of damage to a low armour mage on foot or a horse.
    It just doesn't 1 shot them anymore.

    ITP for trolls! + 50 gold!
  • zer0zer0 Posts: 304Registered Users
    Trolls are mediocre, they have a good amount of damage potential but still buckle extremely easily. GS get a bit more value out of them because of the WAAAAGH though.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    The three D.D build previously existed. I have seen what Kxxk players in Korea often use.
    It was previously available against missile-cavalry and now become available against SEM.

    The problem became more effective against Elite-Cav than before. It is right to kill one missile-one cav model at a time, or reduce the effect of the infantry, or lower the hit rate. I do not think it suits G.S's concept of camping and waiting at a superior crossroad for a faction that does not have a cannon.

    They have good infantry and cavalry, as it does not have good arches. The legitimacy you say is no different than asking BR's blessed trebuchet needs huge buffs for the same hit rate.

    They are superior cavalry than G.S, but they are far weak of infantry. also there is no special mechanism like WAAAGH.
    And they still suffer from SEM.

    It would be fairer to give everyone the same hit rate and SEM handling ability like D.D.

    I knew the difficulties of the old G.S and I was sick of it, but now thet become a very strong faction that is hard to find any weaknesses. Now their appearance is not a good feeling on me at all.
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 975Registered Users
    For me the DDs are really not OP. Every faction has its strengths and weaknesses. The GS are very one dimensional atm as a rush factions so this gives them a slightly different option.

    I think it mixes it up a little and gives the opponent something more to think about other than how do I avoid an infantry engagement/ snipe their lord
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,179Registered Users
    Theo91 said:

    For me the DDs are really not OP. Every faction has its strengths and weaknesses. The GS are very one dimensional atm as a rush factions so this gives them a slightly different option.

    I think it mixes it up a little and gives the opponent something more to think about other than how do I avoid an infantry engagement/ snipe their lord

    Greenskins are one of the most versatile factions out there. They can play basically any style. Wanna see one-dimensional, check out Beastmen or Norsca.
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 975Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Theo91 said:

    For me the DDs are really not OP. Every faction has its strengths and weaknesses. The GS are very one dimensional atm as a rush factions so this gives them a slightly different option.

    I think it mixes it up a little and gives the opponent something more to think about other than how do I avoid an infantry engagement/ snipe their lord

    Greenskins are one of the most versatile factions out there. They can play basically any style. Wanna see one-dimensional, check out Beastmen or Norsca.
    Really? I wouldn’t want to bring a small super elite army with the GS.

    The don’t lord snipe well.

    They’re not good at kiting really as their skirmishers have non existent ap values

    They’re not a good faction for SEM terror bombing

    Prior to this they’re not a faction for camping and winning an arty duel

    They don’t have heavy cav that’s gonna carry a faction

    They’re not gonna spam summons and healing

    For me all they do well is going wide
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 903Registered Users
    Greenskin skirmishers are excellent, mostly because they're so dirt cheap that you can load up on them and still have plenty of funds for other things. Wolf Rider Archers almost always punch up because they're very fast and at $350 you can afford to expend them to do basically any amount of damage. Spider Rider Archers are also very cheap, and in addition apply poison with their ranged attacks so they're extremely hard to pin down. In terms of value for money Greenskins outskirmish pretty much anybody else except WE.

    The sheer cost-efficiency of goblin units in general is why Greenskins are in a good place balance-wise. The goblins let you pad out your army with cheap units that will net reasonable value in most situations, while your more expensive orc units can be used as specialist answers to what you expect the enemy to bring.
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 975Registered Users
    Their skirmishers are all great for their price but having 6 spider/ wolf riders is extremely micro intensive which is probably gonna compromise the rest of your army.

    Furthermore, you don’t want to invest so much micro into such cheap units

    Also as they’re so cheap, if you mis micro and any get caught they literally route instantly.

    The two ror skirmishers are great but I wouldn’t want to go too heavy on them
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,358Registered Users

    Greenskin skirmishers are excellent, mostly because they're so dirt cheap that you can load up on them and still have plenty of funds for other things. Wolf Rider Archers almost always punch up because they're very fast and at $350 you can afford to expend them to do basically any amount of damage. Spider Rider Archers are also very cheap, and in addition apply poison with their ranged attacks so they're extremely hard to pin down. In terms of value for money Greenskins outskirmish pretty much anybody else except WE.

    The sheer cost-efficiency of goblin units in general is why Greenskins are in a good place balance-wise. The goblins let you pad out your army with cheap units that will net reasonable value in most situations, while your more expensive orc units can be used as specialist answers to what you expect the enemy to bring.

    load up being a relative term. You can have what? 5 of them? Unless GS have some improved max skirmish limit? And even though theyre cheap, the damage they do is not particularly good. For example, marauder horsemen do a max of 10800 non-AP and 5040 AP damage for 500 gold, compared to 8100 and 1800 for spider riders at 450, Wolf Riders have 10800+1080. The ranged damage gap is huge, and horsemen can function far better as a pseudo-light cav, since they have ok charge bonus and combat stats. The poison on spider riders melee is just irrelevant for quickly breaking a backline in comparison. Even empire pistoliers get 14040+2160 at 500.

    Despite that cheapness, getting meaningful damage out of them is not that easy, especially if your opponent didn't bring a bunch of squishy units(Skirmish cav RoR's are another story, both are pretty damn good imo).
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,179Registered Users
    Theo91 said:

    Their skirmishers are all great for their price but having 6 spider/ wolf riders is extremely micro intensive which is probably gonna compromise the rest of your army.

    this is a skill level argument and, as such, irrelevant.

    Skirmish mode is also there to help you out.

    Furthermore not everything in this game has 100+ armor, so even if Goblin Wolf Riders have only 1 AP they can prove very useful, in some situations as useful as Ellyrean Reaver Archers in fact.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,971Registered Users
    edited July 9
    People complaining about the GS roster is laughable.

    I will say that I don't think the global waaagh! ability should be spell locked. Or any other command ability for that matter.
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 975Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Theo91 said:

    Their skirmishers are all great for their price but having 6 spider/ wolf riders is extremely micro intensive which is probably gonna compromise the rest of your army.

    this is a skill level argument and, as such, irrelevant.

    Skirmish mode is also there to help you out.

    Furthermore not everything in this game has 100+ armor, so even if Goblin Wolf Riders have only 1 AP they can prove very useful, in some situations as useful as Ellyrean Reaver Archers in fact.
    That’s true, it is a skill argument but it’s not irrelevant in my humble opinion.

    I’m not the best player so I can’t micro as many units effectively as a high level tournament player but no matter how good you are, the more units you have to micro, the harder it is to micro all of them effectively.

    That’s why so many tournament players take dragons or elite cav because they micro one or two top units really well and gain lots of value from them. It’s also why units like LSG are so great because you don’t need to babysit them
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,179Registered Users
    edited July 9
    Theo91 said:

    Green0 said:

    Theo91 said:

    Their skirmishers are all great for their price but having 6 spider/ wolf riders is extremely micro intensive which is probably gonna compromise the rest of your army.

    this is a skill level argument and, as such, irrelevant.

    Skirmish mode is also there to help you out.

    Furthermore not everything in this game has 100+ armor, so even if Goblin Wolf Riders have only 1 AP they can prove very useful, in some situations as useful as Ellyrean Reaver Archers in fact.
    That’s true, it is a skill argument but it’s not irrelevant in my humble opinion.

    I’m not the best player so I can’t micro as many units effectively as a high level tournament player but no matter how good you are, the more units you have to micro, the harder it is to micro all of them effectively.

    That’s why so many tournament players take dragons or elite cav because they micro one or two top units really well and gain lots of value from them. It’s also why units like LSG are so great because you don’t need to babysit them
    I kinda disagree with this. I would say the best way to save micro time is recognize "phases" of the battle and use control groups along with debug camera.

    Let's say for example you wanna extend skirmish phase. You only need to drag a box around your melee, which is likely behind your missile cav, and click backwards once. Skirmish mode is there to also ensure that unless your opponent has something like Slaanesh's Harvesters, they won't get caught.

    Now imagine heavy cav tries to contest your missile cav. All you need to do is drag your heavy cav (best if all grouped in 1-2 groups) and click forward. This is also 1 click.

    The game can be micro-intensive only if you are unaware of what's about to happen. Otherwise, there's not much you need to do in my experience regardless of whether you play High Elves with 12-15 units or Skaven with 20 units (I play Skaven a fair bit so I can say this fairly confidently).

    Factions like Skaven, Greenskins, who cares if you don't get a charge off with your Goblins or Skavenslaves, hell even if your Stormvermin don't countercharge it's not the end of the world. As long as you pay attention to more important stuff, e.g. protecting your Jezails from chariots, Howling Warpgale enemy flyers while they're in position to be shot, etc.

    tl;dr: I think every faction has some nuances to it. For example, I find microing HE fairly easy because I know exactly how each unit does in any situation and what I normally need to win as HE. This is more experience than micro really, in other words it's my accumulated knowledge, and not how fast I click buttons that allows me to edge it out.

    Now put me on say Dwarfs, and yes I would struggle to micro them because on top of clicking I would need to think about what will happen, I would also likely pick bad engagements, so you know, I'm not comfortable with the faciton.
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 975Registered Users

    People complaining about the GS roster is laughable.

    I will say that I don't think the global waaagh! ability should be spell locked. Or any other command ability for that matter.

    I agree. GS are definitely closer to the bottom than the top
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 975Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Theo91 said:

    Green0 said:

    Theo91 said:

    Their skirmishers are all great for their price but having 6 spider/ wolf riders is extremely micro intensive which is probably gonna compromise the rest of your army.

    this is a skill level argument and, as such, irrelevant.

    Skirmish mode is also there to help you out.

    Furthermore not everything in this game has 100+ armor, so even if Goblin Wolf Riders have only 1 AP they can prove very useful, in some situations as useful as Ellyrean Reaver Archers in fact.
    That’s true, it is a skill argument but it’s not irrelevant in my humble opinion.

    I’m not the best player so I can’t micro as many units effectively as a high level tournament player but no matter how good you are, the more units you have to micro, the harder it is to micro all of them effectively.

    That’s why so many tournament players take dragons or elite cav because they micro one or two top units really well and gain lots of value from them. It’s also why units like LSG are so great because you don’t need to babysit them
    I kinda disagree with this. I would say the best way to save micro time is recognize "phases" of the battle and use control groups along with debug camera.

    Let's say for example you wanna extend skirmish phase. You only need to drag a box around your melee, which is likely behind your missile cav, and click backwards once. Skirmish mode is there to also ensure that unless your opponent has something like Slaanesh's Harvesters, they won't get caught.

    Now imagine heavy cav tries to contest your missile cav. All you need to do is drag your heavy cav (best if all grouped in 1-2 groups) and click forward. This is also 1 click.

    The game can be micro-intensive only if you are unaware of what's about to happen. Otherwise, there's not much you need to do in my experience regardless of whether you play High Elves with 12-15 units or Skaven with 20 units (I play Skaven a fair bit so I can say this fairly confidently).

    Factions like Skaven, Greenskins, who cares if you don't get a charge off with your Goblins or Skavenslaves, hell even if your Stormvermin don't countercharge it's not the end of the world. As long as you pay attention to more important stuff, e.g. protecting your Jezails from chariots, Howling Warpgale enemy flyers while they're in position to be shot, etc.

    tl;dr: I think every faction has some nuances to it. For example, I find microing HE fairly easy because I know exactly how each unit does in any situation and what I normally need to win as HE. This is more experience than micro really, in other words it's my accumulated knowledge, and not how fast I click buttons that allows me to edge it out.

    Now put me on say Dwarfs, and yes I would struggle to micro them because on top of clicking I would need to think about what will happen, I would also likely pick bad engagements, so you know, I'm not comfortable with the faciton.
    I see your point but most players don’t micro their units as effectively as you describe. So even if you find your knowledge of the game helps you get around having lots of skirmishers, squishy units and units with low leadership, it won’t be the case for everyone.

    Most players I think would prefer to have smaller armies which are easier to manage
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    Theo91 said:

    Green0 said:

    Theo91 said:

    Green0 said:

    Theo91 said:

    Their skirmishers are all great for their price but having 6 spider/ wolf riders is extremely micro intensive which is probably gonna compromise the rest of your army.

    this is a skill level argument and, as such, irrelevant.

    Skirmish mode is also there to help you out.

    Furthermore not everything in this game has 100+ armor, so even if Goblin Wolf Riders have only 1 AP they can prove very useful, in some situations as useful as Ellyrean Reaver Archers in fact.
    That’s true, it is a skill argument but it’s not irrelevant in my humble opinion.

    I’m not the best player so I can’t micro as many units effectively as a high level tournament player but no matter how good you are, the more units you have to micro, the harder it is to micro all of them effectively.

    That’s why so many tournament players take dragons or elite cav because they micro one or two top units really well and gain lots of value from them. It’s also why units like LSG are so great because you don’t need to babysit them
    I kinda disagree with this. I would say the best way to save micro time is recognize "phases" of the battle and use control groups along with debug camera.

    Let's say for example you wanna extend skirmish phase. You only need to drag a box around your melee, which is likely behind your missile cav, and click backwards once. Skirmish mode is there to also ensure that unless your opponent has something like Slaanesh's Harvesters, they won't get caught.

    Now imagine heavy cav tries to contest your missile cav. All you need to do is drag your heavy cav (best if all grouped in 1-2 groups) and click forward. This is also 1 click.

    The game can be micro-intensive only if you are unaware of what's about to happen. Otherwise, there's not much you need to do in my experience regardless of whether you play High Elves with 12-15 units or Skaven with 20 units (I play Skaven a fair bit so I can say this fairly confidently).

    Factions like Skaven, Greenskins, who cares if you don't get a charge off with your Goblins or Skavenslaves, hell even if your Stormvermin don't countercharge it's not the end of the world. As long as you pay attention to more important stuff, e.g. protecting your Jezails from chariots, Howling Warpgale enemy flyers while they're in position to be shot, etc.

    tl;dr: I think every faction has some nuances to it. For example, I find microing HE fairly easy because I know exactly how each unit does in any situation and what I normally need to win as HE. This is more experience than micro really, in other words it's my accumulated knowledge, and not how fast I click buttons that allows me to edge it out.

    Now put me on say Dwarfs, and yes I would struggle to micro them because on top of clicking I would need to think about what will happen, I would also likely pick bad engagements, so you know, I'm not comfortable with the faciton.
    I see your point but most players don’t micro their units as effectively as you describe. So even if you find your knowledge of the game helps you get around having lots of skirmishers, squishy units and units with low leadership, it won’t be the case for everyone.

    Most players I think would prefer to have smaller armies which are easier to manage
    Don't worry, bro kxxk is smart man. His build was useful before.
    and peoples does not mean to be nerfed seriously when I think.
    DD is being used extensively. originally, all Artillery is being picked through strategic choices.

    so they making a claim about auto pick DD. It was useful for both missile-cav, midtier-cav, and infantry before
    now, it received buffs. It is now available for both elite-cav, SEM, and lord.

    It's just trying to correct it in the right direction. we may leave the effect on SEM.
    but opponent's elite inf/cav can be overcome enough by the roster of GS and it can be defeat by own faction power.
    so u do not have to change the way what you play.
    If your build well, you don't need a lot of complicated and delicate micros.

    now, GS can so many play varies. You do not have to do speed battles centered on missile-cav and cavalry.
    There are very few factions that forced it.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,971Registered Users
    Theo91 said:

    People complaining about the GS roster is laughable.

    I will say that I don't think the global waaagh! ability should be spell locked. Or any other command ability for that matter.

    I agree. GS are definitely closer to the bottom than the top
    At their worst they are mid tier.
  • angry_rat_loverangry_rat_lover Posts: 793Registered Users
    I think they should have higher leadership, I don't think they routing so fast is part of their lore
    Soon
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 903Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    Greenskin skirmishers are excellent, mostly because they're so dirt cheap that you can load up on them and still have plenty of funds for other things. Wolf Rider Archers almost always punch up because they're very fast and at $350 you can afford to expend them to do basically any amount of damage. Spider Rider Archers are also very cheap, and in addition apply poison with their ranged attacks so they're extremely hard to pin down. In terms of value for money Greenskins outskirmish pretty much anybody else except WE.

    The sheer cost-efficiency of goblin units in general is why Greenskins are in a good place balance-wise. The goblins let you pad out your army with cheap units that will net reasonable value in most situations, while your more expensive orc units can be used as specialist answers to what you expect the enemy to bring.

    load up being a relative term. You can have what? 5 of them? Unless GS have some improved max skirmish limit? And even though theyre cheap, the damage they do is not particularly good. For example, marauder horsemen do a max of 10800 non-AP and 5040 AP damage for 500 gold, compared to 8100 and 1800 for spider riders at 450, Wolf Riders have 10800+1080. The ranged damage gap is huge, and horsemen can function far better as a pseudo-light cav, since they have ok charge bonus and combat stats. The poison on spider riders melee is just irrelevant for quickly breaking a backline in comparison. Even empire pistoliers get 14040+2160 at 500.

    Despite that cheapness, getting meaningful damage out of them is not that easy, especially if your opponent didn't bring a bunch of squishy units(Skirmish cav RoR's are another story, both are pretty damn good imo).
    Wolf Rider Archers function just fine in the main job of cheap light cavalry, which is chasing off routers - and they do so while distracting a minimum of effort and investment from the actual fighting.

    On top of which, they just beat other skirmish cav for cost. Seriously! Marauder Horsemen, Ellyrian Reaver Archers, Glade Riders, whatever; Wolf Rider Archers at worst trade even against any of them, for cost.

    They certainly do have weaknesses. . . but then, even if their only contribution is doing a thousand points of damage and then making a unit that costs 50% more waste two or three minutes breaking them and chasing them off the map, it's sort of worth it.
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 975Registered Users
    I

    Wyvern2 said:

    Greenskin skirmishers are excellent, mostly because they're so dirt cheap that you can load up on them and still have plenty of funds for other things. Wolf Rider Archers almost always punch up because they're very fast and at $350 you can afford to expend them to do basically any amount of damage. Spider Rider Archers are also very cheap, and in addition apply poison with their ranged attacks so they're extremely hard to pin down. In terms of value for money Greenskins outskirmish pretty much anybody else except WE.

    The sheer cost-efficiency of goblin units in general is why Greenskins are in a good place balance-wise. The goblins let you pad out your army with cheap units that will net reasonable value in most situations, while your more expensive orc units can be used as specialist answers to what you expect the enemy to bring.

    load up being a relative term. You can have what? 5 of them? Unless GS have some improved max skirmish limit? And even though theyre cheap, the damage they do is not particularly good. For example, marauder horsemen do a max of 10800 non-AP and 5040 AP damage for 500 gold, compared to 8100 and 1800 for spider riders at 450, Wolf Riders have 10800+1080. The ranged damage gap is huge, and horsemen can function far better as a pseudo-light cav, since they have ok charge bonus and combat stats. The poison on spider riders melee is just irrelevant for quickly breaking a backline in comparison. Even empire pistoliers get 14040+2160 at 500.

    Despite that cheapness, getting meaningful damage out of them is not that easy, especially if your opponent didn't bring a bunch of squishy units(Skirmish cav RoR's are another story, both are pretty damn good imo).
    Wolf Rider Archers function just fine in the main job of cheap light cavalry, which is chasing off routers - and they do so while distracting a minimum of effort and investment from the actual fighting.

    On top of which, they just beat other skirmish cav for cost. Seriously! Marauder Horsemen, Ellyrian Reaver Archers, Glade Riders, whatever; Wolf Rider Archers at worst trade even against any of them, for cost.

    They certainly do have weaknesses. . . but then, even if their only contribution is doing a thousand points of damage and then making a unit that costs 50% more waste two or three minutes breaking them and chasing them off the map, it's sort of worth it.
    This discussion has got kinda warped. I completely agree that the GS skirmishers are good value for money... in fact I think that’s what the GS are best at. Value for money. The GS are the best at going wide and for a while, that’s all they really did. The DD upgrade tho gives them a different option which I like
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