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How can i beat skirmish cheese built with VC,Norsca?

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Comments

  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    jin4325 said:

    ok don't be serious about my opinion
    Just enjoy this game with skilled players.
    I feel disgusting about kite build and call them cheese because i'm noob ;)
    But, Though kite build is not cheese, it make noobs like me feel so disgusting.
    And I think it is natural there is some 'rock-paper-scissors game' things in MP games, but i think leaving kite sapm build as currently it is makes extreme 'rock-paper-scissors game' like Hearthstone.
    And i think there is no hope for adjusting kite-build because of some good-skilled players.
    I don't mean that is bad.
    But it's enough to make noob like me never play totalwar again.

    The RTS themselves are difficult, and the kites make the game more difficult. I prefer kite to learn kite, to use a mobility build to confront kite, and to practice a lot of dodge. but this is harsh for common players who want to play lightly. If the mp rule changes, it will get better It is safer and better to combine some infantry than full kite build. conversely, few people use full kite builds coz it's not easy and has so many risk. u do not have to quit if you play for fun. If you enjoy yourself, you will increase your skill on your experience. If you do not want to lose, you can grow fast through hard training.

    If it does not work as expected, create a room that is not qb and invite an experienced player to coach.
    If not, you can have experience and confidence.

    Let's see at MP.
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users
    jin4325 said:

    ok don't be serious about my opinion
    Just enjoy this game with skilled players.
    I feel disgusting about kite build and call them cheese because i'm noob ;)
    But, Though kite build is not cheese, it make noobs like me feel so disgusting.
    And I think it is natural there is some 'rock-paper-scissors game' things in MP games, but i think leaving kite sapm build as currently it is makes extreme 'rock-paper-scissors game' like Hearthstone.
    And i think there is no hope for adjusting kite-build because of some good-skilled players.
    I don't mean that is bad.
    But it's enough to make noob like me never play totalwar again.

    Norsca and VC are susceptible to kite, HE/WE strong for kiting.

    If Norsca/VC bring all out anti-kite, it may not be enough against certain factions, especially to catch them in the air.

    You should quit Norsca/VC if you hate kite instead of the whole game.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,780Registered Users

    jin4325 said:

    ok don't be serious about my opinion
    Just enjoy this game with skilled players.
    I feel disgusting about kite build and call them cheese because i'm noob ;)
    But, Though kite build is not cheese, it make noobs like me feel so disgusting.
    And I think it is natural there is some 'rock-paper-scissors game' things in MP games, but i think leaving kite sapm build as currently it is makes extreme 'rock-paper-scissors game' like Hearthstone.
    And i think there is no hope for adjusting kite-build because of some good-skilled players.
    I don't mean that is bad.
    But it's enough to make noob like me never play totalwar again.

    Norsca and VC are susceptible to kite, HE/WE strong for kiting.

    If Norsca/VC bring all out anti-kite, it may not be enough against certain factions, especially to catch them in the air.

    You should quit Norsca/VC if you hate kite instead of the whole game.
    I think VC are very good vs kite because they can screen their army with zombies and heal back up, i find kite very bad vs VC norsca is not too bad also but youneed to build non headless chicken rusha rmies
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,724Registered Users
    edited July 12
    Yeah some factions are more susceptible than others. Norsca, de and chaos primarily I would say, but any faction is at risk to end up in a situation where you are not able to force an engagement. Factions like gs, bm, skv, liz, vc, dwf, vp, emp etc are perhaps most likely for such a scenario in addition to the ones mentioned above.

    So if you want to avoid being kited, we, he, tk, bret is probably factions people are the least likely to try to go full kite against.

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,180Registered Users
    edited July 12

    You miss my point completely green. I understand the game, as you know, thank you.

    All I have to say on the topic is in my post above and I nowhere say that kiting is not a valid play style or that it should be removed.

    Think abstract and embrace that the game may not be perfect today. Maybe it is, but then why are we here? Maybe skirmish cav is perfect, that could very well be, but I am pretty sure that QB restrictions are not perfect. In any case, I think there is room for improvement, both for elite players and for mainstream players. Both are important.

    sorry I might have been over-zealous like usual but my point is that those new players should "man up" and understand that in this game ALL units can and should be played and not 1 category. At the same time, some streamers had a REALLY bad influence on the general public, due to their hypocrisy and desire to win, because why wouldn't you complain about getting kited when you build a full melee rush army with, say, Norsca, that no other melee army in the game can win against? Everyone wants to win but building unbalanced army which autowins vs other melee armies, and calling people who use missile cav (the counter to the army you built) "cheesers" is very hypocritical. Unfortunately, many new players took these words to the heart because to them the melee rush a certain streamer popularized looks fun, fair and engaging even though it's not.

    I would say already many missile cav units are very balanced, for example Crossbow Riders from DE don't have a lot of ammo, have 23 less models than Darkshards while having the same DPS per model and it's not uncommon to have close games where they manage to expend all of their ammo (try expending all ammo with Darkshards, I promise you this means you surely won). I am really not sure we should nerf stuff based on personal impressions or how a game makes you feel.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,724Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    You miss my point completely green. I understand the game, as you know, thank you.

    All I have to say on the topic is in my post above and I nowhere say that kiting is not a valid play style or that it should be removed.

    Think abstract and embrace that the game may not be perfect today. Maybe it is, but then why are we here? Maybe skirmish cav is perfect, that could very well be, but I am pretty sure that QB restrictions are not perfect. In any case, I think there is room for improvement, both for elite players and for mainstream players. Both are important.

    sorry I might have been over-zealous like usual but my point is that those new players should "man up" and understand that in this game ALL units can and should be played and not 1 category. At the same time, some streamers had a REALLY bad influence on the general public, due to their hypocrisy and desire to win, because why wouldn't you complain about getting kited when you build a full melee rush army with, say, Norsca, that no other melee army in the game can win against? Everyone wants to win but building unbalanced army which autowins vs other melee armies, and calling people who use missile cav (the counter to the army you built) "cheesers" is very hypocritical. Unfortunately, many new players took these words to the heart because to them the melee rush a certain streamer popularized looks fun, fair and engaging even though it's not.

    I would say already many missile cav units are very balanced, for example Crossbow Riders from DE don't have a lot of ammo, have 23 less models than Darkshards while having the same DPS per model and it's not uncommon to have close games where they manage to expend all of their ammo (try expending all ammo with Darkshards, I promise you this means you surely won). I am really not sure we should nerf stuff based on personal impressions or how a game makes you feel.
    That's all cool, I agree with this. There is however no clear line here, that's all I am trying to say.

    If we look back, a lot of people has called ysts or afans (I think? Always mix him up with atei) liz builds cheese (flying, chams, chief, kroq), or kkwons gutterrunner spam or mass hawk riders vs vc/woc or reds dragons and reavers. Even ticos 6 ww/corner build. All these I think are generally frowned upon as not cool, but all of them can be countered. When does a build become generally "OK"? I don't know. Each and all of us probably has a different view here. Mine has shifted, the more I have played, the less such extreme builds bother me personally. But that doesn't mean I don't understand and emphasize with people hating to play against them. Even if winning. I myself have many builds that are in principle not that different from such builds. When I beat a new player with such a build I do feel bad though because that player may not queue up again for all I know.

    So, yeah, I just can see the possibility that the over all game experience could be improved by tweaking and tuning the damage potential between troop types. By that I am talking in terms of like 10% here or there. If hagbane glade riders don't fire their last 2 shots it doesn't mean autoloss. Maybe it gives incentive to replace one or two of them with a dws or ww for some more ranged damage potential, that in turn invites to more counterplay because more things can catch them, that might make the opponent feel happier about his loss. Sure it's all emotion, but emotion is what makes us enjoy the game, or move on to something we enjoy more. In a perfect world, both wins and losses are enjoyable.

    I don't hold any answers here, just trying to provide some perspective and an alternative to the "my way or the highway" thinking.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,180Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    You miss my point completely green. I understand the game, as you know, thank you.

    All I have to say on the topic is in my post above and I nowhere say that kiting is not a valid play style or that it should be removed.

    Think abstract and embrace that the game may not be perfect today. Maybe it is, but then why are we here? Maybe skirmish cav is perfect, that could very well be, but I am pretty sure that QB restrictions are not perfect. In any case, I think there is room for improvement, both for elite players and for mainstream players. Both are important.

    sorry I might have been over-zealous like usual but my point is that those new players should "man up" and understand that in this game ALL units can and should be played and not 1 category. At the same time, some streamers had a REALLY bad influence on the general public, due to their hypocrisy and desire to win, because why wouldn't you complain about getting kited when you build a full melee rush army with, say, Norsca, that no other melee army in the game can win against? Everyone wants to win but building unbalanced army which autowins vs other melee armies, and calling people who use missile cav (the counter to the army you built) "cheesers" is very hypocritical. Unfortunately, many new players took these words to the heart because to them the melee rush a certain streamer popularized looks fun, fair and engaging even though it's not.

    I would say already many missile cav units are very balanced, for example Crossbow Riders from DE don't have a lot of ammo, have 23 less models than Darkshards while having the same DPS per model and it's not uncommon to have close games where they manage to expend all of their ammo (try expending all ammo with Darkshards, I promise you this means you surely won). I am really not sure we should nerf stuff based on personal impressions or how a game makes you feel.
    That's all cool, I agree with this. There is however no clear line here, that's all I am trying to say.

    If we look back, a lot of people has called ysts or afans (I think? Always mix him up with atei) liz builds cheese (flying, chams, chief, kroq), or kkwons gutterrunner spam or mass hawk riders vs vc/woc or reds dragons and reavers. Even ticos 6 ww/corner build. All these I think are generally frowned upon as not cool, but all of them can be countered. When does a build become generally "OK"? I don't know. Each and all of us probably has a different view here. Mine has shifted, the more I have played, the less such extreme builds bother me personally. But that doesn't mean I don't understand and emphasize with people hating to play against them. Even if winning. I myself have many builds that are in principle not that different from such builds. When I beat a new player with such a build I do feel bad though because that player may not queue up again for all I know.

    So, yeah, I just can see the possibility that the over all game experience could be improved by tweaking and tuning the damage potential between troop types. By that I am talking in terms of like 10% here or there. If hagbane glade riders don't fire their last 2 shots it doesn't mean autoloss. Maybe it gives incentive to replace one or two of them with a dws or ww for some more ranged damage potential, that in turn invites to more counterplay because more things can catch them, that might make the opponent feel happier about his loss. Sure it's all emotion, but emotion is what makes us enjoy the game, or move on to something we enjoy more. In a perfect world, both wins and losses are enjoyable.

    I don't hold any answers here, just trying to provide some perspective and an alternative to the "my way or the highway" thinking.
    those were different issues though, about the Lizardmen build, it wasn't only Chameleons, but them in conjunction with healing and Terror-causing monsters and Hand of Gods being OP back then that made that army hard to beat unless you saw it coming. Since then, Lizardmen have no healing anymore, Hand of Gods is slightly weaker and Chameleons also got a token nerf. Losing to that list, in my eyes, is no different than losing to an Empire player bringing 4 Cannons and 5 Demigryph Knights (something I used to do when I was very, very new out of frustration toward the Dark Elves back then). Cheesers are gonna cheese.

    About Skaven, their Skirmishers had a bug that let them ignore shields. Their summons were also broken and had no collision.

    About the Dragon + Reavers build, I can't say if I find it cheesy or not because I went only once vs it as Dark Elves and I beat it with a regular army. To me, it didn't seem particularly strong so idk.

    tl;dr: cheesers are gonna cheese.

    FYI about "firing 2 less shots", I think you're being very wishful here. 2 less shots on a missile cav unit would have a big impact. Remember when they gave +2 ammo to Waywatchers? The justification was that vs a good player, who doesn't sacrifice his units for you, you won't have a lot of good shots with WW, so in some games you could struggle to be cost-effective. Units like Poison Glade Riders or Ellyrean Reavers are already expensive, mostly non-AP and in my eyes by no means overperforming. If anything, you could argue they underperform since even when the opponent doesn't bring counters, their impact isn't always massive but let's be impartial and say they are perfectly balanced.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,724Registered Users
    Not really, these builds have been used and complained about after the cold blooded change as well, and by good players too. Live and on discord. As far as I know hand of the gods has not been changed at all, it's just that kroq gar is less survivable now so it's not as popular. Gutter runner shield bug was fixed but full runner builds have been complained about after that too as far as I know. There were also other nerfs so the unit is not as good anymore as it was for sure. The summon bug being abused however was not really part of the complaints about that build iirc, it was just pure bug abuse to use it in any build. I mean we all know all this but it doesn't change that good players have called all these cheese in the past, and keep doing it on the discord and in streams. Doesn't really matter if it's good or bad cheese, people call it cheese and the point is not really that anyways, the point is: at which point does it stop being cheese and become mobile play, or kite builds, or a clever counter? It's not black or white, and people will have different opinions. If everyone should just man up, why does QB have restrictions at all? Why do tournament build restrictions exist? It's only a matter of where you draw the line and nothing here is anything except people expectations of having fun games.

    About waywatchers, unless I remember this completely wrong Ato said he would give them +2 ammo and gave them +4 because reasons... and ww are a more special case because they have a lot of value put into every shot, so getting +4 ammo obviously equals a lot of value, much more than for any horse archers which is the only thing I have mentioned, and we are also talking about half max here, -2.

    But anyways, yes I am actually convinced that a skirmish cav "only" using 90% of it's ammo is generating good value. If 90% ammo used is bad value, then 100% ammo used is also bad value because it's only 10% more than what is bad in potential ranged value, then melee value comes on top so effectively perhaps we're talking about 5% value total, and if we also allow for lost models and smaller target units/fewer remaining optimal targets late game it's even less.

    Ellyrian reaver archers have quite little ammo to start with and poor ap ratio, and is not really a troublemaker in this respect, while hagbane tips have like 30% more potential damage than reavers with better AP ratio and poison iirc. They are a good example of a unit that carries a bit too hard unsupported imo. Why it got buffed I have no idea what so ever.

    Bah, this is exactly what I was going to stay out of. If you can't or won't see any potential problems for other players or accept that the game could possibly be improved for users being newer or not sharing your exact view of how the game should be played, then I am just wasting time.

    Have you already forgot how it is to learn this game?
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users

    jin4325 said:

    ok don't be serious about my opinion
    Just enjoy this game with skilled players.
    I feel disgusting about kite build and call them cheese because i'm noob ;)
    But, Though kite build is not cheese, it make noobs like me feel so disgusting.
    And I think it is natural there is some 'rock-paper-scissors game' things in MP games, but i think leaving kite sapm build as currently it is makes extreme 'rock-paper-scissors game' like Hearthstone.
    And i think there is no hope for adjusting kite-build because of some good-skilled players.
    I don't mean that is bad.
    But it's enough to make noob like me never play totalwar again.

    Norsca and VC are susceptible to kite, HE/WE strong for kiting.

    If Norsca/VC bring all out anti-kite, it may not be enough against certain factions, especially to catch them in the air.

    You should quit Norsca/VC if you hate kite instead of the whole game.
    I think VC are very good vs kite because they can screen their army with zombies and heal back up, i find kite very bad vs VC norsca is not too bad also but youneed to build non headless chicken rusha rmies
    It depends, I was mainly talking about if Wood Elves pick all in the air, it could be a draw immediately from the picking, problems like that.

    If someone rather them not even try to kite, they would quit playing Norsca/VC.
  • jin4325jin4325 Posts: 18Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    You miss my point completely green. I understand the game, as you know, thank you.

    All I have to say on the topic is in my post above and I nowhere say that kiting is not a valid play style or that it should be removed.

    Think abstract and embrace that the game may not be perfect today. Maybe it is, but then why are we here? Maybe skirmish cav is perfect, that could very well be, but I am pretty sure that QB restrictions are not perfect. In any case, I think there is room for improvement, both for elite players and for mainstream players. Both are important.

    sorry I might have been over-zealous like usual but my point is that those new players should "man up" and understand that in this game ALL units can and should be played and not 1 category. At the same time, some streamers had a REALLY bad influence on the general public, due to their hypocrisy and desire to win, because why wouldn't you complain about getting kited when you build a full melee rush army with, say, Norsca, that no other melee army in the game can win against? Everyone wants to win but building unbalanced army which autowins vs other melee armies, and calling people who use missile cav (the counter to the army you built) "cheesers" is very hypocritical. Unfortunately, many new players took these words to the heart because to them the melee rush a certain streamer popularized looks fun, fair and engaging even though it's not.

    I would say already many missile cav units are very balanced, for example Crossbow Riders from DE don't have a lot of ammo, have 23 less models than Darkshards while having the same DPS per model and it's not uncommon to have close games where they manage to expend all of their ammo (try expending all ammo with Darkshards, I promise you this means you surely won). I am really not sure we should nerf stuff based on personal impressions or how a game makes you feel.
    That's all cool, I agree with this. There is however no clear line here, that's all I am trying to say.

    If we look back, a lot of people has called ysts or afans (I think? Always mix him up with atei) liz builds cheese (flying, chams, chief, kroq), or kkwons gutterrunner spam or mass hawk riders vs vc/woc or reds dragons and reavers. Even ticos 6 ww/corner build. All these I think are generally frowned upon as not cool, but all of them can be countered. When does a build become generally "OK"? I don't know. Each and all of us probably has a different view here. Mine has shifted, the more I have played, the less such extreme builds bother me personally. But that doesn't mean I don't understand and emphasize with people hating to play against them. Even if winning. I myself have many builds that are in principle not that different from such builds. When I beat a new player with such a build I do feel bad though because that player may not queue up again for all I know.

    So, yeah, I just can see the possibility that the over all game experience could be improved by tweaking and tuning the damage potential between troop types. By that I am talking in terms of like 10% here or there. If hagbane glade riders don't fire their last 2 shots it doesn't mean autoloss. Maybe it gives incentive to replace one or two of them with a dws or ww for some more ranged damage potential, that in turn invites to more counterplay because more things can catch them, that might make the opponent feel happier about his loss. Sure it's all emotion, but emotion is what makes us enjoy the game, or move on to something we enjoy more. In a perfect world, both wins and losses are enjoyable.

    I don't hold any answers here, just trying to provide some perspective and an alternative to the "my way or the highway" thinking.
    those were different issues though, about the Lizardmen build, it wasn't only Chameleons, but them in conjunction with healing and Terror-causing monsters and Hand of Gods being OP back then that made that army hard to beat unless you saw it coming. Since then, Lizardmen have no healing anymore, Hand of Gods is slightly weaker and Chameleons also got a token nerf. Losing to that list, in my eyes, is no different than losing to an Empire player bringing 4 Cannons and 5 Demigryph Knights (something I used to do when I was very, very new out of frustration toward the Dark Elves back then). Cheesers are gonna cheese.

    About Skaven, their Skirmishers had a bug that let them ignore shields. Their summons were also broken and had no collision.

    About the Dragon + Reavers build, I can't say if I find it cheesy or not because I went only once vs it as Dark Elves and I beat it with a regular army. To me, it didn't seem particularly strong so idk.

    tl;dr: cheesers are gonna cheese.

    FYI about "firing 2 less shots", I think you're being very wishful here. 2 less shots on a missile cav unit would have a big impact. Remember when they gave +2 ammo to Waywatchers? The justification was that vs a good player, who doesn't sacrifice his units for you, you won't have a lot of good shots with WW, so in some games you could struggle to be cost-effective. Units like Poison Glade Riders or Ellyrean Reavers are already expensive, mostly non-AP and in my eyes by no means overperforming. If anything, you could argue they underperform since even when the opponent doesn't bring counters, their impact isn't always massive but let's be impartial and say they are perfectly balanced.
    I think u r very proud that u r a good player in this game and have no idea about how much not-good players like me decide to quit MP becuse of some disgusting builds.
    It's not about balance how good players r feeling, it's just about extreamly unpleasant experiances of not good players
    Do u think i am generalizing all not-good players? And still don't have any critical mind about the fact that there r no restrictions in QB for preventing some disgusting builds?
    If so, ignore a noob's opinion and just enjoy a league of their own.

    ps. now he is happy to play League of Legend, the game that have many player-level-defferentiating tools without needing to make new players feel disgusting.

    ps2. he have played other RTSs like Starcraft 1 and 2 and Warcraft and of course he meet many cheese builds in that games but there were appropriate tools to deal with them, that newbies can use, and this situations make newbies feel somewhat disgusting but simultaneously make them to play harder to improve their skills but TTW does not. cheese build in TTW is not funny and not motivating at all.
  • jin4325jin4325 Posts: 18Registered Users
    한국어개선, 스킬배분배
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    You miss my point completely green. I understand the game, as you know, thank you.

    All I have to say on the topic is in my post above and I nowhere say that kiting is not a valid play style or that it should be removed.

    Think abstract and embrace that the game may not be perfect today. Maybe it is, but then why are we here? Maybe skirmish cav is perfect, that could very well be, but I am pretty sure that QB restrictions are not perfect. In any case, I think there is room for improvement, both for elite players and for mainstream players. Both are important.

    sorry I might have been over-zealous like usual but my point is that those new players should "man up" and understand that in this game ALL units can and should be played and not 1 category. At the same time, some streamers had a REALLY bad influence on the general public, due to their hypocrisy and desire to win, because why wouldn't you complain about getting kited when you build a full melee rush army with, say, Norsca, that no other melee army in the game can win against? Everyone wants to win but building unbalanced army which autowins vs other melee armies, and calling people who use missile cav (the counter to the army you built) "cheesers" is very hypocritical. Unfortunately, many new players took these words to the heart because to them the melee rush a certain streamer popularized looks fun, fair and engaging even though it's not.

    I would say already many missile cav units are very balanced, for example Crossbow Riders from DE don't have a lot of ammo, have 23 less models than Darkshards while having the same DPS per model and it's not uncommon to have close games where they manage to expend all of their ammo (try expending all ammo with Darkshards, I promise you this means you surely won). I am really not sure we should nerf stuff based on personal impressions or how a game makes you feel.
    That's all cool, I agree with this. There is however no clear line here, that's all I am trying to say.

    If we look back, a lot of people has called ysts or afans (I think? Always mix him up with atei) liz builds cheese (flying, chams, chief, kroq), or kkwons gutterrunner spam or mass hawk riders vs vc/woc or reds dragons and reavers. Even ticos 6 ww/corner build. All these I think are generally frowned upon as not cool, but all of them can be countered. When does a build become generally "OK"? I don't know. Each and all of us probably has a different view here. Mine has shifted, the more I have played, the less such extreme builds bother me personally. But that doesn't mean I don't understand and emphasize with people hating to play against them. Even if winning. I myself have many builds that are in principle not that different from such builds. When I beat a new player with such a build I do feel bad though because that player may not queue up again for all I know.

    So, yeah, I just can see the possibility that the over all game experience could be improved by tweaking and tuning the damage potential between troop types. By that I am talking in terms of like 10% here or there. If hagbane glade riders don't fire their last 2 shots it doesn't mean autoloss. Maybe it gives incentive to replace one or two of them with a dws or ww for some more ranged damage potential, that in turn invites to more counterplay because more things can catch them, that might make the opponent feel happier about his loss. Sure it's all emotion, but emotion is what makes us enjoy the game, or move on to something we enjoy more. In a perfect world, both wins and losses are enjoyable.

    I don't hold any answers here, just trying to provide some perspective and an alternative to the "my way or the highway" thinking.
    those were different issues though, about the Lizardmen build, it wasn't only Chameleons, but them in conjunction with healing and Terror-causing monsters and Hand of Gods being OP back then that made that army hard to beat unless you saw it coming. Since then, Lizardmen have no healing anymore, Hand of Gods is slightly weaker and Chameleons also got a token nerf. Losing to that list, in my eyes, is no different than losing to an Empire player bringing 4 Cannons and 5 Demigryph Knights (something I used to do when I was very, very new out of frustration toward the Dark Elves back then). Cheesers are gonna cheese.

    About Skaven, their Skirmishers had a bug that let them ignore shields. Their summons were also broken and had no collision.

    About the Dragon + Reavers build, I can't say if I find it cheesy or not because I went only once vs it as Dark Elves and I beat it with a regular army. To me, it didn't seem particularly strong so idk.

    tl;dr: cheesers are gonna cheese.

    FYI about "firing 2 less shots", I think you're being very wishful here. 2 less shots on a missile cav unit would have a big impact. Remember when they gave +2 ammo to Waywatchers? The justification was that vs a good player, who doesn't sacrifice his units for you, you won't have a lot of good shots with WW, so in some games you could struggle to be cost-effective. Units like Poison Glade Riders or Ellyrean Reavers are already expensive, mostly non-AP and in my eyes by no means overperforming. If anything, you could argue they underperform since even when the opponent doesn't bring counters, their impact isn't always massive but let's be impartial and say they are perfectly balanced.
    I think u r very proud that u r a good player in this game and have no idea about how much not-good players like me decide to quit MP becuse of some disgusting builds.
    It's not about balance how good players r feeling, it's just about extreamly unpleasant experiances of not good players
    Do u think i am generalizing all not-good players? And still don't have any critical mind about the fact that there r no restrictions in QB for preventing some disgusting builds?
    If so, ignore a noob's opinion and just enjoy a league of their own.

    ps. now he is happy to play League of Legend, the game that have many player-level-defferentiating tools without needing to make new players feel disgusting.

    ps2. he have played other RTSs like Starcraft 1 and 2 and Warcraft and of course he meet many cheese builds in that games but there were appropriate tools to deal with them, that newbies can use, and this situations make newbies feel somewhat disgusting but simultaneously make them to play harder to improve their skills but TTW does not. cheese build in TTW is not funny and not motivating at all.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    yes, should be change MP rule.
    If devs are seeing this, consider limiting the number of missile inf (360degree).That's a problem with leaving more than 14 cards kite tool capable of this faction. The faction is not bad, only rule is wrong.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,180Registered Users
    well yes, 360 degree missile units could be limited to max 5 without jeopardizing gameplay.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,780Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    well yes, 360 degree missile units could be limited to max 5 without jeopardizing gameplay.

    6
  • ystyst Posts: 6,071Registered Users
    Thats just very bad implementation, would be ridiculous if u can bring 6x waywatch at $6600 while only 6x mara cav at $3000.

    U wanna cap, frikking cap costs. This kind of basic stuffs should be quite straight forward, surely ppl know how many eagles they can bring and whats the limit on star drag
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,780Registered Users
    yst said:

    Thats just very bad implementation, would be ridiculous if u can bring 6x waywatch at $6600 while only 6x mara cav at $3000.

    U wanna cap, frikking cap costs. This kind of basic stuffs should be quite straight forward, surely ppl know how many eagles they can bring and whats the limit on star drag

    you can already only bring 5 mara cav, while you can take 7 WW, what are you talking about?
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,180Registered Users
    Waywatchers are a problem unit, 3 is barely tolerable, 4 is already a bit cheesy and anything more generally autowins or loses or drawkites you.

    I’d like to see WW (including RoR) be promoted to “epic” units such as Dragons and limited to max 4 per QB. Although this is a totally separate issue. Maybe max 3 would be even better but in the spirit of having free army building let’s say 4.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,724Registered Users
    It would be awesome if they just adopted the cup rules for qb. They are extensively tested, and made by- and for competitive mp players.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,780Registered Users

    It would be awesome if they just adopted the cup rules for qb. They are extensively tested, and made by- and for competitive mp players.

    Yep totally agreed, i do think some of the caps are not possible to implement but as much as possible would be great.
  • VikingCatVikingCat Posts: 246Registered Users
    edited July 23
    Except 'the' cup rules are too extensive and made and maintained by people who a) never won much, or anything and b) let their own faction bias and bias towards certain play styles shine through. They became 'the standard' but the current ones really aren't that good.

    If we used current cup rules, we'd also be playing with 40 minute timers and large armies, btw.

    I actually don't mind QB having looser restrictions, because it's the best environment to figure out what's broken and should be limited, and also a strong argument to put certain rules in place. It gives us some basis for making tourney rules.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,180Registered Users
    VikingCat said:

    Except 'the' cup rules are too extensive and made and maintained by people who a) never won much, or anything and b) let their own faction bias and bias towards certain play styles shine through. They became 'the standard' but the current ones really aren't that good.

    If we used current cup rules, we'd also be playing with 40 minute timers and large armies, btw.

    I actually don't mind QB having looser restrictions, because it's the best environment to figure out what's broken and should be limited, and also a strong argument to put certain rules in place. It gives us some basis for making tourney rules.

    preach to the choir bro, you gotta wonder what goes on in the head of someone who thinks 3 Eagles is tournament illegal whereas 6 Gyrocopters (something u can't even pick in QB) is perfectly legal. Funnily enough, both serve the same purpose too (lord/key target sniping), with the latter being much stronger at it.
  • BluesCluesBluesClues Posts: 28Registered Users
    VC and Norsca have one of the best archers in the game, you should try using them. Kite players cry all the time about the OP norsca and VC archers cuz they counter everything with minimal effort.
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