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Empire or Greenskin update?

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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,067Registered Users
    edited July 17
    Dwarf Grudges - can't ignore because accumulating too many debuffs your Empire
    Vampire Counts - suffer attrition and PO debuffs on uncorrupted land, need raise dead due to lack of global recruitment
    Greenskins- you suffer attrition if fightiness runs too low
    Warriors of Chaos - horde gameplay
    Beastmen - horde gameplay and Morrsleib events cannot be ignored because you must make a choice every few turns
    Wood Elves - Filling certain offices is necessary to get access to basic campaign functions, also amber can't be ignored
    Bretonnia - need chivalry to actually win the campaign
    High Elves - Influence events every few turns, need influence to hire lords that don't suck
    Dark Elves- very sparse income without slaves
    Skaven - food shortages debuff your empire
    Lizardmen - very little income without the geomantic web buffs
    Vampire Coast - leader is always a pseudo-horde (they can however ignore their offices too)
    Norsca - need divine favor to win campaign, practically no income without raiding and pillaging
    Tomb Kings - recruit units and armies in a quite different way that cannot be ignored

    Empire offices is the only factional quirk that's completely irrelevant to the campaign. Filling offices or not does not matter. You can fill them all or you can leave them blank, you can end the campaign perfectly fine either way.

    The Empire has no faction mechanic.

  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Posts: 3,890Registered Users
    As you yourself laid out, you can also end the campaign just fine ignoring influence with HE, you can entirely choose not to raise dead with VC, you can entirely ignore, and many do, the geomantic web with LM.

    That doesn't make any of these things not a mechanic. Many attest that the geomantic web isn't good and needs to be fixed, but it not being good doesn't make it not exist.

    You not liking something doesn't make it not exist.
    I am incredibly mad and angry at whatever someone insinuated could possibly, but not likely, happen in the WH series today and CA must answer for this with an explanation of why they might possibly, but didn't do this!!!
  • neodeinosneodeinos Posts: 718Registered Users

    Dwarf Grudges - can't ignore because accumulating too many debuffs your Empire
    Vampire Counts - suffer attrition and PO debuffs on uncorrupted land, need raise dead due to lack of global recruitment
    Greenskins- you suffer attrition if fightiness runs too low
    Warriors of Chaos - horde gameplay
    Beastmen - horde gameplay and Morrsleib events cannot be ignored because you must make a choice every few turns
    Wood Elves - Filling certain offices is necessary to get access to basic campaign functions, also amber can't be ignored
    Bretonnia - need chivalry to actually win the campaign
    High Elves - Influence events every few turns, need influence to hire lords that don't suck
    Dark Elves- very sparse income without slaves
    Skaven - food shortages debuff your empire
    Lizardmen - very little income without the geomantic web buffs
    Vampire Coast - leader is always a pseudo-horde (they can however ignore their offices too)
    Norsca - need divine favor to win campaign, practically no income without raiding and pillaging
    Tomb Kings - recruit units and armies in a quite different way that cannot be ignored

    Empire offices is the only factional quirk that's completely irrelevant to the campaign. Filling offices or not does not matter. You can fill them all or you can leave them blank, you can end the campaign perfectly fine either way.

    The Empire has no faction mechanic.

    You are contradicting yourself with your most of your examples and your sentence that is just below....

    Jesus Christ this so dumb. So dumb that it even became fascinating how dumb it can be. It's just a case of "I don't like that mechanic then it is not a mechanic". Say all what you want, problem is just your reasoning.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,067Registered Users
    edited July 17

    As you yourself laid out, you can also end the campaign just fine ignoring influence with HE, you can entirely choose not to raise dead with VC, you can entirely ignore, and many do, the geomantic web with LM.

    That doesn't make any of these things not a mechanic. Many attest that the geomantic web isn't good and needs to be fixed, but it not being good doesn't make it not exist.

    You not liking something doesn't make it not exist.

    HE get the influence events every few turns and have to make a choice, so they can't ignore them and you ignored the undead corruption for VCounts.

    Ignoring the geomantic web as the LM makes the campaign a whole lot harder than not filling offices for the Empire does because Empire office bonuses are very, VERY subdued you might as well not bother at all.

    A mechanic that's 100% irrelevant is no mechanic.

  • neodeinosneodeinos Posts: 718Registered Users

    As you yourself laid out, you can also end the campaign just fine ignoring influence with HE, you can entirely choose not to raise dead with VC, you can entirely ignore, and many do, the geomantic web with LM.

    That doesn't make any of these things not a mechanic. Many attest that the geomantic web isn't good and needs to be fixed, but it not being good doesn't make it not exist.

    You not liking something doesn't make it not exist.

    HE get the influence events every few turns and have to make a choice, so they can't ignore them and you ignored the undead corruption for VCounts.

    Ignoring the geomantic web as the LM makes the campaign a whole lot harder than not filling offices for the Empire does because Empire office bonuses are very, VERY subdued you might as well not bother at all.

    A mechanic that's 100% irrelevant is no mechanic.
    You said a mechanic that can be ignored without repercussion is not a mechanic but yet if you do not assign them to the offices you don't get the bonuses. That has an impact on your campaign even if it's a slight one. If you want to pull an argument to say it's not a mechanic try to a least find one that makes actual sense.
  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Posts: 3,890Registered Users

    As you yourself laid out, you can also end the campaign just fine ignoring influence with HE, you can entirely choose not to raise dead with VC, you can entirely ignore, and many do, the geomantic web with LM.

    That doesn't make any of these things not a mechanic. Many attest that the geomantic web isn't good and needs to be fixed, but it not being good doesn't make it not exist.

    You not liking something doesn't make it not exist.

    A mechanic that's 100% irrelevant is no mechanic.
    Again, that is not a fact. Something being bad or superfluous doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can fight every single battle yourself. Does that mean auto-resolve doesn't exist? You can play the game entirely without giving yourself a single skill point, do skill trees not exist? Graphic options are optional, so they don't exist. You can go on and on and on.

    It's just poor logic. And since you have never changed your mind on anything ever. No point in debating it. You likely know you're statement is flawed, but will never admit it.
    I am incredibly mad and angry at whatever someone insinuated could possibly, but not likely, happen in the WH series today and CA must answer for this with an explanation of why they might possibly, but didn't do this!!!
  • AzurianAzurian Posts: 298Registered Users
    New Legendary Lord: Imrik
    Old World Update: Forest Elves
    Old Friends: Twilight Sisters!

    more sharp ears to god sharp ears!

  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,533Registered Users
    neodeinos said:

    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Greenskins will be dead last for update since they require the most extensive overhaul of all the races in game :-/

    AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that good joke. Empire dont have even half of what GS have.
    He's right though. Greenskins do need more a rework than Empire does. They are lacking a hell lot of units, the only specific mechanic is not fun to use and actually frustrating while as the Empire is actually fun to play even though they lack mechanics.

    It's not because you're favourite faction is the Empire that it means it's the one that needs the most work on it.
    Ares354 said:

    I recall CA saying that they are doing these updates in order of factions who need the least work first.

    If I were to rank the remaining WH1 races (except chaos/BM/norsca who I expect to be a WH3 update) in the same way I'd rank them like this:
    - Wood Elves
    - Empire
    - Greenskins

    The reason I say this is that (to me), WE only really need an overhaul to theit main race mechanic (amber), a new LL/2nd starting position, missing wizard lord type and a larger tech tree.

    Empire need the same stuff as Wood Elves but could also use a rebalance to their late game unit upkeep, and some new units in the form of knightly orders.

    Greenskins need everything that empire needs but also need to have half their current units rebalanced as well as recruitment times for some units. On top of that they have way more missing units/ lords/heroes.


    The only reasons I think it might not happen in that order are that they may not want to do WE before core races and/or that if they do want to do a Eltharion/Grom LP then it makes sense to update GS at the same time.

    GS have more LL then Empire, and Empire have as GS half of Lord option to use. GS need like 1 hero otpion, that is Orc Big Boss and his reskin aka Savage one. So much.
    That clearly shows how much you don't know about GS, they lack about as much units as Empire. Don't speak for something you have no idea of.
    He is not right, not even close. First of all, GS have 3 different starting positions, 4 LL. Empire have 1 and 3.

    Waaaghh mechanic aint perfect, but like WE mechanic need only tweaks to work. You can add new one, by making tech tree unlocked from won battles vs different factions. 2 fresh mechanic, way better then Empire one.

    If you think GS will have every units from Lore, or from most obscure scource then you are very wrong. CA wont make every unit to any race. Maybe you will get troll variant, and some new units that arent in game, but Empire as well have units that can be added, and bring new stuff to game. Empire as GS have units that are unique only to province. And what, you think GS should get it because your are fan or something ?

    You think CA will waste their time to give you 3 gobos variant, forest and night one ? To fill Lord or Hero gaps ? or what sense make to add Orc Warboss and Black Orc Warboss. ? Ofc I agree on adding Orc melee hero, fine. But if you think you will get all, think again.
  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Posts: 1,088Registered Users
    I want them both so badly, I can hardly bear to decide. On top of that... maybe the one that comes last gets the best update. I will be happy with either. Heck, I don't even mind if it is neither. WE or BM would also be reassurance that DLC races are going to improve too.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Posts: 718Registered Users
    Ares354 said:

    neodeinos said:

    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Greenskins will be dead last for update since they require the most extensive overhaul of all the races in game :-/

    AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that good joke. Empire dont have even half of what GS have.
    He's right though. Greenskins do need more a rework than Empire does. They are lacking a hell lot of units, the only specific mechanic is not fun to use and actually frustrating while as the Empire is actually fun to play even though they lack mechanics.

    It's not because you're favourite faction is the Empire that it means it's the one that needs the most work on it.
    Ares354 said:

    I recall CA saying that they are doing these updates in order of factions who need the least work first.

    If I were to rank the remaining WH1 races (except chaos/BM/norsca who I expect to be a WH3 update) in the same way I'd rank them like this:
    - Wood Elves
    - Empire
    - Greenskins

    The reason I say this is that (to me), WE only really need an overhaul to theit main race mechanic (amber), a new LL/2nd starting position, missing wizard lord type and a larger tech tree.

    Empire need the same stuff as Wood Elves but could also use a rebalance to their late game unit upkeep, and some new units in the form of knightly orders.

    Greenskins need everything that empire needs but also need to have half their current units rebalanced as well as recruitment times for some units. On top of that they have way more missing units/ lords/heroes.


    The only reasons I think it might not happen in that order are that they may not want to do WE before core races and/or that if they do want to do a Eltharion/Grom LP then it makes sense to update GS at the same time.

    GS have more LL then Empire, and Empire have as GS half of Lord option to use. GS need like 1 hero otpion, that is Orc Big Boss and his reskin aka Savage one. So much.
    That clearly shows how much you don't know about GS, they lack about as much units as Empire. Don't speak for something you have no idea of.
    He is not right, not even close. First of all, GS have 3 different starting positions, 4 LL. Empire have 1 and 3.

    Waaaghh mechanic aint perfect, but like WE mechanic need only tweaks to work. You can add new one, by making tech tree unlocked from won battles vs different factions. 2 fresh mechanic, way better then Empire one.

    If you think GS will have every units from Lore, or from most obscure scource then you are very wrong. CA wont make every unit to any race. Maybe you will get troll variant, and some new units that arent in game, but Empire as well have units that can be added, and bring new stuff to game. Empire as GS have units that are unique only to province. And what, you think GS should get it because your are fan or something ?

    You think CA will waste their time to give you 3 gobos variant, forest and night one ? To fill Lord or Hero gaps ? or what sense make to add Orc Warboss and Black Orc Warboss. ? Ofc I agree on adding Orc melee hero, fine. But if you think you will get all, think again.
    I want both reworks really hard but I think objectively GS is the one that needs it the most. But I expected such answer from you who is obsessed with the Empire and dispute anyone who is not saying Empire rework should be next.

    And btw, if you think CA won't even care about the units for GS then why the hell would they about the Empire ?
    Maybe WAAAGH mechanic isn't perfect but that's enough to make the faction tedious to play, it's just a frustrating mechanic but it's an important one that you can't ignore so no choice here. They might lack a lot of variants but they also have a lot of other units that are not variants and I'm not talking about obscure stuff from the lore.
    I'm not saying the GS rework is more important because I'm a fan of them, in fact I'm far from it. I prefer the Empire in so many ways, it's just that I'm trying to stay objective and not think that a faction needs the most a rework because it is my favourite or whatever.
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,725Registered Users
    I haven't played GS so I don't know the WAAAGGH issue as much.

    For me getting the Empire rework would be awesome but getting GS rework would also be a opportunity to finally play them,
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,533Registered Users
    neodeinos said:

    Ares354 said:

    neodeinos said:

    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Greenskins will be dead last for update since they require the most extensive overhaul of all the races in game :-/

    AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that good joke. Empire dont have even half of what GS have.
    He's right though. Greenskins do need more a rework than Empire does. They are lacking a hell lot of units, the only specific mechanic is not fun to use and actually frustrating while as the Empire is actually fun to play even though they lack mechanics.

    It's not because you're favourite faction is the Empire that it means it's the one that needs the most work on it.
    Ares354 said:

    I recall CA saying that they are doing these updates in order of factions who need the least work first.

    If I were to rank the remaining WH1 races (except chaos/BM/norsca who I expect to be a WH3 update) in the same way I'd rank them like this:
    - Wood Elves
    - Empire
    - Greenskins

    The reason I say this is that (to me), WE only really need an overhaul to theit main race mechanic (amber), a new LL/2nd starting position, missing wizard lord type and a larger tech tree.

    Empire need the same stuff as Wood Elves but could also use a rebalance to their late game unit upkeep, and some new units in the form of knightly orders.

    Greenskins need everything that empire needs but also need to have half their current units rebalanced as well as recruitment times for some units. On top of that they have way more missing units/ lords/heroes.


    The only reasons I think it might not happen in that order are that they may not want to do WE before core races and/or that if they do want to do a Eltharion/Grom LP then it makes sense to update GS at the same time.

    GS have more LL then Empire, and Empire have as GS half of Lord option to use. GS need like 1 hero otpion, that is Orc Big Boss and his reskin aka Savage one. So much.
    That clearly shows how much you don't know about GS, they lack about as much units as Empire. Don't speak for something you have no idea of.
    He is not right, not even close. First of all, GS have 3 different starting positions, 4 LL. Empire have 1 and 3.

    Waaaghh mechanic aint perfect, but like WE mechanic need only tweaks to work. You can add new one, by making tech tree unlocked from won battles vs different factions. 2 fresh mechanic, way better then Empire one.

    If you think GS will have every units from Lore, or from most obscure scource then you are very wrong. CA wont make every unit to any race. Maybe you will get troll variant, and some new units that arent in game, but Empire as well have units that can be added, and bring new stuff to game. Empire as GS have units that are unique only to province. And what, you think GS should get it because your are fan or something ?

    You think CA will waste their time to give you 3 gobos variant, forest and night one ? To fill Lord or Hero gaps ? or what sense make to add Orc Warboss and Black Orc Warboss. ? Ofc I agree on adding Orc melee hero, fine. But if you think you will get all, think again.
    I want both reworks really hard but I think objectively GS is the one that needs it the most. But I expected such answer from you who is obsessed with the Empire and dispute anyone who is not saying Empire rework should be next.

    And btw, if you think CA won't even care about the units for GS then why the hell would they about the Empire ?
    Maybe WAAAGH mechanic isn't perfect but that's enough to make the faction tedious to play, it's just a frustrating mechanic but it's an important one that you can't ignore so no choice here. They might lack a lot of variants but they also have a lot of other units that are not variants and I'm not talking about obscure stuff from the lore.
    I'm not saying the GS rework is more important because I'm a fan of them, in fact I'm far from it. I prefer the Empire in so many ways, it's just that I'm trying to stay objective and not think that a faction needs the most a rework because it is my favourite or whatever.
    You know nothing of me. I dont want Empire rework next, I am very fine with GS rework or WE rework.

    And btw, learn to read. I said CA wont fill every unit in your beloved faction, no matter how much you whine about it.

    Empire was faction who got worst dlc in game, and have mechanic given to 2 different race. GS share mechanic only with BM, and only partially.
  • DaGangsterDaGangster Junior Member Posts: 705Registered Users
    Im leaning towards Empire, since they just got some new regions, but then again it could be to try and tide them over while the badlands are worked on.

    Team Vampire Counts

    "Many players cannot help approaching a game as an optimization puzzle. What gives the most reward for the least risk? What strategy provides the highest chance – or even a guaranteed chance – of success? Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

    - Soren Johnson
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,272Registered Users
    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Greenskins will be dead last for update since they require the most extensive overhaul of all the races in game :-/

    AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that good joke. Empire dont have even half of what GS have.
    The point is that what the empire has - WORKS.

    Excepting pistoliers... which for some reason are absolute suck.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,067Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Greenskins will be dead last for update since they require the most extensive overhaul of all the races in game :-/

    AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that good joke. Empire dont have even half of what GS have.
    The point is that what the empire has - WORKS.

    Excepting pistoliers... which for some reason are absolute suck.
    The Empire has nothing, so nothing works.

  • neodeinosneodeinos Posts: 718Registered Users

    Itharus said:

    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Greenskins will be dead last for update since they require the most extensive overhaul of all the races in game :-/

    AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that good joke. Empire dont have even half of what GS have.
    The point is that what the empire has - WORKS.

    Excepting pistoliers... which for some reason are absolute suck.
    The Empire has nothing, so nothing works.
    You mean they don't have the mechanic that you don't want to admit it exists because you don't like it ?
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,067Registered Users
    edited July 18
    neodeinos said:

    Itharus said:

    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Greenskins will be dead last for update since they require the most extensive overhaul of all the races in game :-/

    AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that good joke. Empire dont have even half of what GS have.
    The point is that what the empire has - WORKS.

    Excepting pistoliers... which for some reason are absolute suck.
    The Empire has nothing, so nothing works.
    You mean they don't have the mechanic that you don't want to admit it exists because you don't like it ?
    They don't have any mechanics. It doesn't matter if I don't like it. A bobblehead doll on your dashboard isn't a car mechanic. No mechanic = no mechanic.

  • neodeinosneodeinos Posts: 718Registered Users

    neodeinos said:

    Itharus said:

    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Greenskins will be dead last for update since they require the most extensive overhaul of all the races in game :-/

    AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that good joke. Empire dont have even half of what GS have.
    The point is that what the empire has - WORKS.

    Excepting pistoliers... which for some reason are absolute suck.
    The Empire has nothing, so nothing works.
    You mean they don't have the mechanic that you don't want to admit it exists because you don't like it ?
    They don't have any mechanics. It doesn't matter if I don't like it. No mechanic = no mechanic.
    They have one, like it or not. I'm not going through this again but yesterday all your arguments you gave to support your point were not valid, then you disappeared because you probably had no idea what to say anymore to face the fact that you were wrong.

    Not liking a mechanic doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. But you just won't admit it because you refuse to admit that you are wrong and someone else is right. It's like that in any topics where I saw your comments.
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,533Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Greenskins will be dead last for update since they require the most extensive overhaul of all the races in game :-/

    AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that good joke. Empire dont have even half of what GS have.
    The point is that what the empire has - WORKS.

    Excepting pistoliers... which for some reason are absolute suck.
    For you, GS dont work, which is lie straight into face. GS have 3 Lord who give you option to play that race with very unique way. Skarsnik give you full gobo army, wurrzag full savage army, and both Grimgor and Azagh focus on mixed army. Empire army always look the same, Demis, some arty, range units, not matter what Lord you use, only some units change, but not the concept.

    GS fanboy will whine their race got worst end of stick, its lie. They got good DLC, with Dawi, fun free LL unlike Empire, and with little work, CA can rework WAAAGH and add new way to unlock tech tree. If Grimhammer team can change WAAAGH so can CA.

    What Empire didint get, simple rework wont change, that is free LL, free starting position or free subfaction, on top of new, unique mechanic, that focus on what Empire is.

    But for GS its always their who are worst, because they lack some hero option, like many faction of Old World and units.
  • LayzanLayzan Posts: 889Registered Users
    I enjoyed empire way more than GS, despite playing them over 2000 hours. The waaagh is awful and bugged, you can't even use ambush because the waaagh blocks you on it's next move....

    The GS roster is fine at the start but becomes a boring BO spam, it's so limited and un orc like. Their tech tree is pathetic and locks some of the only best options away for way too late into a campaign.

    They are missing orc heroes so bad, and are so behind on the power creep.

    For a faction that's based around aggression, you have to play ultra defensive until late game.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,632Registered Users
    I don't think Empire needs anything, as it would take a miracle to take them beyond 'generic'. I think they should just redirect the Empire budget to Skaven.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,067Registered Users

    I don't think Empire needs anything, as it would take a miracle to take them beyond 'generic'. I think they should just redirect the Empire budget to Skaven.

    They could create mechanics for 10+ other races, they can create one for the Empire too.

  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,533Registered Users
    Layzan said:

    I enjoyed empire way more than GS, despite playing them over 2000 hours. The waaagh is awful and bugged, you can't even use ambush because the waaagh blocks you on it's next move....

    The GS roster is fine at the start but becomes a boring BO spam, it's so limited and un orc like. Their tech tree is pathetic and locks some of the only best options away for way too late into a campaign.

    They are missing orc heroes so bad, and are so behind on the power creep.

    For a faction that's based around aggression, you have to play ultra defensive until late game.

    I enjoyed GS more then Empire, despite playing them over 3000 hours.
    The officer system is awful and powercreeped, you can give supreme patriarch to Volkmar, even if that make no sense or have no logic behind it, Empire officer do nothing.....

    The Empire roster is fine at start but becomes boring Demi, spam late, its so limited, and un Empire like, where basic units should be main part of your army...Empire tech tree, awful joke. Worst then Bretonnia, and GS, locked behind buldings....and you get joke buff for 8 turns of waiting....

    They are missing Master Engineer Hero so bad, and are so behind on the power creep.

    For a faction who's focus around diplomatic option with their own, you have non, you always have to fight other electors for stupid reasons....
  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Posts: 1,088Registered Users
    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Greenskins will be dead last for update since they require the most extensive overhaul of all the races in game :-/

    AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that good joke. Empire dont have even half of what GS have.
    The point is that what the empire has - WORKS.

    Excepting pistoliers... which for some reason are absolute suck.
    For you, GS dont work, which is lie straight into face. GS have 3 Lord who give you option to play that race with very unique way. Skarsnik give you full gobo army, wurrzag full savage army, and both Grimgor and Azagh focus on mixed army. Empire army always look the same, Demis, some arty, range units, not matter what Lord you use, only some units change, but not the concept.

    GS fanboy will whine their race got worst end of stick, its lie. They got good DLC, with Dawi, fun free LL unlike Empire, and with little work, CA can rework WAAAGH and add new way to unlock tech tree. If Grimhammer team can change WAAAGH so can CA.

    What Empire didint get, simple rework wont change, that is free LL, free starting position or free subfaction, on top of new, unique mechanic, that focus on what Empire is.

    But for GS its always their who are worst, because they lack some hero option, like many faction of Old World and units.
    Hey. No need to besmirch "GS fanboys" and fangirls. They include some mighty fine people, myself included.

    It sucks that the Empire only has one start position. I wonder if this is tied into the fact that their "mechanic" (in quotes for ED) is based around positions of office within The Empire specifically. You have an Emperor, a Reiksmarshal, a Supreme Patriarch. Averland don't have their own versions of these, for example. How would theirs have worked back in game 1?

    I will say that the Empire campaign is something I enjoy. It hasn't got many wrinkles, but Altdorf is a great start for strategic variety. You can be diplomatic and build a trade empire, slowly confederating other provinces when their armies get smooshed and they're about to be overwhelmed. My last playthrough I confederated every Empire faction except Marienburg, who I killed early, and Sudenburg who vanished early on. You can also invade Bretonnia or beat the other provinces into submission or conquer the Southern Realms or purge the mountains or conquer Athel Loren or even cleanse Norsca.

    Greenskins, though... Well, for one thing, I can't trade. This hurts the economy compared to other races and diplomacy seems pretty pointless to me without it. Other Greenskin factions are of no real use without a financial incentive to keep them sweet and they tend to get in your way as allies more than anything. It becomes a dull game of paint the map with dumb AI Waaghs following you around. I'm sure it appeals to some people as I'm sure horde gameplay works for others. Not my thing however.

    Both have frankly terrible unique mechanics with tech locked behind buildings. Getting to a tier three settlement with Tinkerers for tech as Skarsnik is a pain in the hoop, especially.

    Units missing? Many for both. I appreciate we will never see all the goblin variants or all the knight variants, but there are still enough missing units to fill a DLC between them easily.

    Empire do better than GS for heroes. Four types if we don't separate all the wizards compared to two if we don't split the shamans.

    Greenskins do better on start positions and LLs.

    Basically both have a lot of work required. Which needs more is a moot point right now anyway as we know they will both get a much needed overhaul eventually.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,067Registered Users
    I changed my mind on the offices.

    They're actually a serious, immersion destroying design flaw that makes the gameplay experience of the Empire worse just by being there in all its tone-deaf glory

    1. You can put any character in any office if he has the required level, except for the office of Emperor

    - that means a general of the Empire can become head of the college of mages, despite Gelt holding that title, who's also the only one who actually directly profits off of the office effects

    -lorewise there are two arch lectors to the Grand Theogonist. You can of course recruit as many arch-lectors as you want, but only one will actually have any sort of effect holding that office if you put him in there. As with the above you can also put any other character in that slot, including Gelt or even stupider, Volkmar, who's one step above the two, but his office doesn't exist (and Volkmar, unlike Ghorst, never had his skilltree upgraded, so he's still just Arch Lector + Papamobile and item)

    2. The title of emperor has no effect whatsoever. If there's anything that shows what an empty and hollow shell the Empire is, then this is it. Karl Franz is the emperor and no one gives a damn

    3. Many effects that should be global are regional, so you need to have the office holder be present in the region you wish to apply the bonus to, like the construction discount from the master engineer. Compared to the WE or VCoast offices which do often have global effects of some kind, this is stupid and limiting and makes the offices more of a chore than a boon

  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Posts: 1,088Registered Users

    I changed my mind on the offices.

    They're actually a serious, immersion destroying design flaw that makes the gameplay experience of the Empire worse just by being there in all its tone-deaf glory

    1. You can put any character in any office if he has the required level, except for the office of Emperor

    - that means a general of the Empire can become head of the college of mages, despite Gelt holding that title, who's also the only one who actually directly profits off of the office effects

    -lorewise there are two arch lectors to the Grand Theogonist. You can of course recruit as many arch-lectors as you want, but only one will actually have any sort of effect holding that office if you put him in there. As with the above you can also put any other character in that slot, including Gelt or even stupider, Volkmar, who's one step above the two, but his office doesn't exist (and Volkmar, unlike Ghorst, never had his skilltree upgraded, so he's still just Arch Lector + Papamobile and item)

    2. The title of emperor has no effect whatsoever. If there's anything that shows what an empty and hollow shell the Empire is, then this is it. Karl Franz is the emperor and no one gives a damn

    3. Many effects that should be global are regional, so you need to have the office holder be present in the region you wish to apply the bonus to, like the construction discount from the master engineer. Compared to the WE or VCoast offices which do often have global effects of some kind, this is stupid and limiting and makes the offices more of a chore than a boon

    Yes it's bad. Worse than that... What if the Empire only has one playable faction because its terribad mechanic won't translate to others?
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,533Registered Users

    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Greenskins will be dead last for update since they require the most extensive overhaul of all the races in game :-/

    AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that good joke. Empire dont have even half of what GS have.
    The point is that what the empire has - WORKS.

    Excepting pistoliers... which for some reason are absolute suck.
    For you, GS dont work, which is lie straight into face. GS have 3 Lord who give you option to play that race with very unique way. Skarsnik give you full gobo army, wurrzag full savage army, and both Grimgor and Azagh focus on mixed army. Empire army always look the same, Demis, some arty, range units, not matter what Lord you use, only some units change, but not the concept.

    GS fanboy will whine their race got worst end of stick, its lie. They got good DLC, with Dawi, fun free LL unlike Empire, and with little work, CA can rework WAAAGH and add new way to unlock tech tree. If Grimhammer team can change WAAAGH so can CA.

    What Empire didint get, simple rework wont change, that is free LL, free starting position or free subfaction, on top of new, unique mechanic, that focus on what Empire is.

    But for GS its always their who are worst, because they lack some hero option, like many faction of Old World and units.
    Hey. No need to besmirch "GS fanboys" and fangirls. They include some mighty fine people, myself included.

    It sucks that the Empire only has one start position. I wonder if this is tied into the fact that their "mechanic" (in quotes for ED) is based around positions of office within The Empire specifically. You have an Emperor, a Reiksmarshal, a Supreme Patriarch. Averland don't have their own versions of these, for example. How would theirs have worked back in game 1?

    I will say that the Empire campaign is something I enjoy. It hasn't got many wrinkles, but Altdorf is a great start for strategic variety. You can be diplomatic and build a trade empire, slowly confederating other provinces when their armies get smooshed and they're about to be overwhelmed. My last playthrough I confederated every Empire faction except Marienburg, who I killed early, and Sudenburg who vanished early on. You can also invade Bretonnia or beat the other provinces into submission or conquer the Southern Realms or purge the mountains or conquer Athel Loren or even cleanse Norsca.

    Greenskins, though... Well, for one thing, I can't trade. This hurts the economy compared to other races and diplomacy seems pretty pointless to me without it. Other Greenskin factions are of no real use without a financial incentive to keep them sweet and they tend to get in your way as allies more than anything. It becomes a dull game of paint the map with dumb AI Waaghs following you around. I'm sure it appeals to some people as I'm sure horde gameplay works for others. Not my thing however.

    Both have frankly terrible unique mechanics with tech locked behind buildings. Getting to a tier three settlement with Tinkerers for tech as Skarsnik is a pain in the hoop, especially.

    Units missing? Many for both. I appreciate we will never see all the goblin variants or all the knight variants, but there are still enough missing units to fill a DLC between them easily.

    Empire do better than GS for heroes. Four types if we don't separate all the wizards compared to two if we don't split the shamans.

    Greenskins do better on start positions and LLs.

    Basically both have a lot of work required. Which needs more is a moot point right now anyway as we know they will both get a much needed overhaul eventually.
    Their mechanic ? What is their mechanic, there is ONLY one Supreme Patriach, and you can put there anyone...like how that make sense ? Empire mechanic is bad idea, done even worst then that.

    You want trade as GS ? Like GS are race that live from war, endless war. Diplomacy with GS, again ? in lore, where GS do diplomacy ? You ask for thing that arent in GS nature. GS should have Norsca thing that they get other faction into them, when kill their warboss.

    Skarsnik have bad starting posiition, but with good challange, which I love. Because Skarsnik have skill that make gobos killing machines.

    I know both of those faction miss units, that way cross over dlc for ME is must for them, but is up to CA.

    Ofc Empire do better with heroes, that why I dont say "no" for Orc Boss and his Savage version, nor I will say no to Night Goblin hero option for Skarsnik faction only. Its thing CA should add, even weapons variant for all hero should be added, SP only if MP balance is problematic.

    Main question is, what kind of overhaul. Because from "demands" that come from fans of both faction, simple rework CA done to old worl are not enough, its clear as day light by now.
  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Posts: 1,088Registered Users
    Ares354 said:

    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Ares354 said:

    Itharus said:

    Greenskins will be dead last for update since they require the most extensive overhaul of all the races in game :-/

    AHHAHAHAHAHAHAH, that good joke. Empire dont have even half of what GS have.
    The point is that what the empire has - WORKS.

    Excepting pistoliers... which for some reason are absolute suck.
    For you, GS dont work, which is lie straight into face. GS have 3 Lord who give you option to play that race with very unique way. Skarsnik give you full gobo army, wurrzag full savage army, and both Grimgor and Azagh focus on mixed army. Empire army always look the same, Demis, some arty, range units, not matter what Lord you use, only some units change, but not the concept.

    GS fanboy will whine their race got worst end of stick, its lie. They got good DLC, with Dawi, fun free LL unlike Empire, and with little work, CA can rework WAAAGH and add new way to unlock tech tree. If Grimhammer team can change WAAAGH so can CA.

    What Empire didint get, simple rework wont change, that is free LL, free starting position or free subfaction, on top of new, unique mechanic, that focus on what Empire is.

    But for GS its always their who are worst, because they lack some hero option, like many faction of Old World and units.
    Hey. No need to besmirch "GS fanboys" and fangirls. They include some mighty fine people, myself included.

    It sucks that the Empire only has one start position. I wonder if this is tied into the fact that their "mechanic" (in quotes for ED) is based around positions of office within The Empire specifically. You have an Emperor, a Reiksmarshal, a Supreme Patriarch. Averland don't have their own versions of these, for example. How would theirs have worked back in game 1?

    I will say that the Empire campaign is something I enjoy. It hasn't got many wrinkles, but Altdorf is a great start for strategic variety. You can be diplomatic and build a trade empire, slowly confederating other provinces when their armies get smooshed and they're about to be overwhelmed. My last playthrough I confederated every Empire faction except Marienburg, who I killed early, and Sudenburg who vanished early on. You can also invade Bretonnia or beat the other provinces into submission or conquer the Southern Realms or purge the mountains or conquer Athel Loren or even cleanse Norsca.

    Greenskins, though... Well, for one thing, I can't trade. This hurts the economy compared to other races and diplomacy seems pretty pointless to me without it. Other Greenskin factions are of no real use without a financial incentive to keep them sweet and they tend to get in your way as allies more than anything. It becomes a dull game of paint the map with dumb AI Waaghs following you around. I'm sure it appeals to some people as I'm sure horde gameplay works for others. Not my thing however.

    Both have frankly terrible unique mechanics with tech locked behind buildings. Getting to a tier three settlement with Tinkerers for tech as Skarsnik is a pain in the hoop, especially.

    Units missing? Many for both. I appreciate we will never see all the goblin variants or all the knight variants, but there are still enough missing units to fill a DLC between them easily.

    Empire do better than GS for heroes. Four types if we don't separate all the wizards compared to two if we don't split the shamans.

    Greenskins do better on start positions and LLs.

    Basically both have a lot of work required. Which needs more is a moot point right now anyway as we know they will both get a much needed overhaul eventually.
    Their mechanic ? What is their mechanic, there is ONLY one Supreme Patriach, and you can put there anyone...like how that make sense ? Empire mechanic is bad idea, done even worst then that.

    You want trade as GS ? Like GS are race that live from war, endless war. Diplomacy with GS, again ? in lore, where GS do diplomacy ? You ask for thing that arent in GS nature. GS should have Norsca thing that they get other faction into them, when kill their warboss.

    Skarsnik have bad starting posiition, but with good challange, which I love. Because Skarsnik have skill that make gobos killing machines.

    I know both of those faction miss units, that way cross over dlc for ME is must for them, but is up to CA.

    Ofc Empire do better with heroes, that why I dont say "no" for Orc Boss and his Savage version, nor I will say no to Night Goblin hero option for Skarsnik faction only. Its thing CA should add, even weapons variant for all hero should be added, SP only if MP balance is problematic.

    Main question is, what kind of overhaul. Because from "demands" that come from fans of both faction, simple rework CA done to old worl are not enough, its clear as day light by now.
    Supreme Patriarch... agreed. It's ridiculous, especially when Empire only has one spellcasting lord, namely Gelt. That whole thing has to change if we are going to get other playable Empire factions. Every province doesn't get its own Supreme Patriarch.

    Greenskins trade... They have teef. They use them to barter with other Greenskins. I'm not saying its necessary, I'm just using it for an example of how their playstyle in total war is extra boring.

    Skarsnik is a challenge, I agree. I think it could be more fun even for those that enjoy him if the GS get more (and better) mechanics.

    Crossover DLC would be great. I wish I believed CA were doing it.

    Glad we agree on heroes too.

    Yep these factions need more than a simple vow system, a few techs and a trident. I hope they get it.

    We agree on a lot. See... GS fans aren't so bad, really. ;)
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,067Registered Users

    I changed my mind on the offices.

    They're actually a serious, immersion destroying design flaw that makes the gameplay experience of the Empire worse just by being there in all its tone-deaf glory

    1. You can put any character in any office if he has the required level, except for the office of Emperor

    - that means a general of the Empire can become head of the college of mages, despite Gelt holding that title, who's also the only one who actually directly profits off of the office effects

    -lorewise there are two arch lectors to the Grand Theogonist. You can of course recruit as many arch-lectors as you want, but only one will actually have any sort of effect holding that office if you put him in there. As with the above you can also put any other character in that slot, including Gelt or even stupider, Volkmar, who's one step above the two, but his office doesn't exist (and Volkmar, unlike Ghorst, never had his skilltree upgraded, so he's still just Arch Lector + Papamobile and item)

    2. The title of emperor has no effect whatsoever. If there's anything that shows what an empty and hollow shell the Empire is, then this is it. Karl Franz is the emperor and no one gives a damn

    3. Many effects that should be global are regional, so you need to have the office holder be present in the region you wish to apply the bonus to, like the construction discount from the master engineer. Compared to the WE or VCoast offices which do often have global effects of some kind, this is stupid and limiting and makes the offices more of a chore than a boon

    Yes it's bad. Worse than that... What if the Empire only has one playable faction because its terribad mechanic won't translate to others?
    That I don't think is the issue, they can rename the offices to have "Elector Count" instead of emperor and the others something like "Ar-Ulric" instead of "arch lector" in Middenland or "Daisy's Chief Groomer" for "Reiskmarshal" in Averland.

  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USAPosts: 5,559Registered Users

    Greenskins trade... They have teef. They use them to barter with other Greenskins. I'm not saying its necessary, I'm just using it for an example of how their playstyle in total war is extra boring.

    They also trade slaves to the Chaos Dwarfs for weapons and armor (if my memory doesn't fail me), and trade food (dead bodies and the promise of them) for ogre's to join them.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
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