Swords of chaos are amazing.

MrRipper707

Its amazing how bad this unit is.

I believe that this has to do with the model count model health, @ 12 models with 308 hp per model individual models are still pretty vulnerable to getting one shot by alot of the popular SEM's. 280 Ap damage is not unheard of on alot of the popular really good SEMs like Star dragons, Shaggoths, necrosphinxes, HPA's, Arachnaroks, Terrorgheists, Feral carnasaurs, and Ancient stagadons all have 280 ap damage minimum and with 100+ non ap damage I dont think its uncommon for them to hit that 308 damage threshhold.


I suggest perhaps
-reduce armour by 10
-increase 25% physical resist
-Add 5% missile parry,
-Double the unit size
-reduce hp per model by 98.
- Reduce BVI by 15
- Increase BVL by 13
- Increase AP damage by 2
-Increase speed by 4
-Add helmets to all models.

These changes will bring them more in line with cavalry that exist at a similar price point such as demigryph halberds and Dragon princes in addition to helping them fight back against the monsters they suffer most against by having BVL and physical resistance.
Also good gods they have some ugly mugs. adding helmets should increase their pick rate by about 84%






In addition apocalyptic charge kind of blows on account of the fact it only seems to trigger once, it even seems to trigger when not charging enemies, and triggers any time someone comes close or flies overhead. Perhaps it should become a map wide passive that is constantly on and is disabled permanently once a units first charge bomus wears off.

MrRipper707

Reserved

yst#1879

Any details on their performance?

Pretty sure theres a base to start off with. They should rather easily whoop regular chaos knights. $1500 base is without a doubt on-the-spot estimate

Reym#7442

yst said:

Any details on their performance?

Well they perform wery (like VERY) well vs infantry. The problem being that you rarely need that as chaos.
To take me as an exemple I only take them vs greenskins in order to kill black orcs but that's about it.
They become even nicer with casketing fire cloak, the mix of MD more AP and the fire weakness applied really make those trades vs elite infantry really good (minimal loses of HP since they will have 85 MD).

But this unit suffers to be one in a race with plenty of good anti infantry units and two in a meta game that is not about elite infantry exept a few races/cases. You could of course use them to kill mid or low tier hordes but isn't it a bit overkill then ?

I disagree with the op tho. Those buffs are way too over the top, like giving them BvL is ridiculous when you have things such as the summoners of rage.

When it come to apocalyptic charge the player should be able to trigger it himself so he can make better use off the speed buff (which can be pretty handy for chaos).

another505

Just give them higher ma no need for bvsL

I think something like ward save is better for such a supposedly powerful unit
Like 10 percent

#21546

Why would you use them vs a dragon ?

They are anti-infantry cavalry, better than any other, charge them in a unit of greatswords and see the magic happen

Aerocrastic

Why not just take Bvi off of them so we don't have to sit around discussing what unit they're supposed to kill and make them pretty okay at killing everything. Losing Bvi of 15 probably would mean gaining MA and WS, plus you can give them magic attacks too, not that it's a huge buff or anything, but who knows, maybe they would have a use vs Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings if you did that

c0rvus

AIMA_Dracklor said:

Why would you use them vs a dragon ?

They are anti-infantry cavalry, better than any other, charge them in a unit of greatswords and see the magic happen

You're right but that's not the problem. Chaos has good enough infantry regiment to compete against their peer already and there wasn't a lack of size or mass in their roster to deal with all kinds of infantry problems at all.

There's an awkward situation where the most common of all picks (the likes of greatswords as you say) that are presented in a match for each different army, aren't in the same ballpark as the ROR chaos knight and only when fighting against their ideal encounters they looked balanced whilst justifiying their cost. But that margin is very small. So when CA release them in game 2 and crippled them with a big stats wipe, some of us were not happy about it. Not saying they are not problematic enough to warrant some toning down from game 1 though. They were kinda busted before they move to Game 2, but the change they got does have some backlash imo.

yst#1879

1) +21 hp each, so they have the exact same hp as generic chaos knights instead of having lower atm. (378 hp lower)
2) Change apocalyptic charge +24% charge speed to +24% charge bonus, to reflect a more apocalyptic charge.

These changes should really suffice and make them a very competitive unit, they r actually not bad at current state, if ure thinking of going 1.5k lance knight, they r an alternative for 1.7k

One thing I support 1000% is; add helmet

AENARlON

Wouldn't the SEMs mentioned in OP almost always splash damage over several models and therefore rarely OHK SoC even with favourable armour rolls?

MrRipper707

Reym said:

yst said:

Any details on their performance?

Well they perform wery (like VERY) well vs infantry. The problem being that you rarely need that as chaos.
To take me as an exemple I only take them vs greenskins in order to kill black orcs but that's about it.
They become even nicer with casketing fire cloak, the mix of MD more AP and the fire weakness applied really make those trades vs elite infantry really good (minimal loses of HP since they will have 85 MD).

But this unit suffers to be one in a race with plenty of good anti infantry units and two in a meta game that is not about elite infantry exept a few races/cases. You could of course use them to kill mid or low tier hordes but isn't it a bit overkill then ?

I disagree with the op tho. Those buffs are way too over the top, like giving them BvL is ridiculous when you have things such as the summoners of rage.

When it come to apocalyptic charge the player should be able to trigger it himself so he can make better use off the speed buff (which can be pretty handy for chaos).

Im curious which you think make then OP? is it perhaps the physicial resistance combined with the HP increase? Id love to hear your thoughts. The changes I suggested make them much similar to something like Demigryph knights or Fireborn which both exist at a similar pricepoint. Maybe the armour reduction + physical resist is too much But considering they are slower than both fireborn and demigryphs still i thought it wouldnt be too crazy.

MrRipper707

rymeintrinseca said:

Wouldn't the SEMs mentioned in OP almost always splash damage over several models and therefore rarely OHK SoC even with favourable armour rolls?

To be honest Im not sure Ryme, its really hard to get data for splash damage from the stat cards.

MrRipper707

AIMA_Dracklor said:

Why would you use them vs a dragon ?

They are anti-infantry cavalry, better than any other, charge them in a unit of greatswords and see the magic happen

To be fair a dragon often gets used against then rather than them initiating vs a dragon. 66 speed vs 90 doesnt give them a huge amount of initiation choice outside fighting infantry.

yst#1879

MrRipper707 said:

To be honest Im not sure Ryme, its really hard to get data for splash damage from the stat cards.

Doesnt really matter much a 50 dmg is 50 dmg. Splash or not. Ur not going over or below. What dmg they do is what they gonna do.

End of the day what is their base? They can destroy some 1400-1500 cav so thats their base. The $200 is buying the other perks they have.

What they deserve imo, pretty much +378 hp so they at least have chaos knights hp instead pf having lower.

The apo charge of +24% charge speed, thats just so useless. Just change that to +24% charge bonus and sword of chaos ror may well be fixed already. Anything else can leave for future patch. Unless they r performing like $1200 but they arent that weak

yst#1879

Prayers been answered

+10 att
+3 def
+15 dmg
+ Immune to psy

They should quite be on par with demi ror now, if not better depending on costs

zer0i

Nice! they finally lost the bonus vs Inf

yst#1879

zer0 said:

Nice! they finally lost the bonus vs Inf

Its a positive for chaos without a doubt, its basically taking that anti inf and making it generalist. Great changes