Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

A case for A Wissenland DLC Faction

SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
edited August 2019 in General Discussion
The Empire has been in dire need of a rework and expansion for a long time. So many units, characters, mechanics and start positions have went neglected and the Empire as it stands right now is a shadow of what it could be. The current iteration, as seen in game, doesn't portray the cultural or religious differences between the provinces; region specific units, political intrigue between the counts, the complexity of the structured hierarchy of the empires Offices and there is no mechanic or incentive to peacefully unite the empire under one banner.

There is a lot of untapped potential and when people talk about these changes, they often point to Middenland as the ideal place to expand upon, since it has the most unique and fleshed out culture, with a heavy focus on a different religion and units which could translate into a fresh new playstyle. if properly implemented, the Ulrican north would indeed add much to the faction, but I think people have overlooked, neglected or just don’t know about other parts of the Empire with their own kind of unique culture, which could make an equal or potentially greater contribution to the unit roster, Legendary Lords and mechanics. one of the main contenders for a faction that could bring all these things to the Empire would be Wissenland and over the course of this post: I’m going to delve into what Wissenland is like, how they could effect the roster, what units it could add and what a Wissenland campaign might look like.

First of all, I would like to address something people tend to bring up regarding Wissenland: many say that because of its proximity to the Empire, that its basically the same start as the Empire. This could not be further from the truth (which I will go into) and other places like Middenland border the Empire as well (Middenland is also land locked and can only really fight the Empire, Bretonnia and perhaps Norsca early on).

Naturally, as a part of my explanation as to why I believe Wissenland would be one of the best inclusions, I may have to point out what benefits it has over other potential candidates. This does not mean that I think all other options are terrible; I would still advocate for an Ulrican focused faction, a Markus Wulfhart Faction that could function like a Vampire Coast horde with a beast hunting mechanic similar to Norsca (A wulfhart vs Taurox Lordpack would be great) and things like that, so understand that my goal is not to erase all other options except what I want, all I want to do is Inject Wissenland into the discourse and point out why it should be one of the better candidates.

What is Wissenland Like?

Wissenland is the south eastern most province in the Human Empire, which is situated between the Grey mountains to the west, the Black mountains to the south and the river Reik to the east. along the banks of the river Reik lie the only real fertile land in the entire province, as the rest of Wissenland's geography is craggy, steep and uneven, leading into the mountains that surround it. As a result: the majority of the province is barren or difficult to farm. Instead, the people of Wissenland rely on the Lowlands along the Reik, to provide the bulk of their food, while the rest of the province focuses on mining, animal husbandry and hunting. Their wool and Fur pelts are well renowned and are highly sought after, even beyond the borders of the Empire.

Here's some images of what the majority of Wissenland west of the Reik, would look like, to give you an impression.





due to their close proximity to the Mountains, they have had regular contact with the Dwarfs, who claim ownership over the mountains and the surrounding area. "While the Dwarfs of Karak Norn and Karak Hirn claim large areas of the mountains for themselves, negotiations over centuries have secured rights for Humans to mine too; though this does not stop illegal operations on Dwarf lands. The Dwarfs do not take kindly to what they see as theft, and more importantly, shoddy workmanship."

Wissenland Relies on trade as much as it does mining and merchants travel though the Vaults (where Belegar is, between the Black and Grey Mountains) to get to and from Tilea, the Border Princes and Bretonnia. during the winter, these mountains are almost impassible so they utilise tunnels created by an underground river, that goes straight through to Tilea, to keep trade alive all year round.

Nuln is the biggest city in the province and used to be the Capital of the whole Empire. Unlike Altdorf, which is the seat of culture in the Empire; Nuln is more the seat of knowledge and industry. it has some of the best universities in the Empire and the world famous Imperial gunnery school and workshops: which teach the vast majority of the Empires Engineers, Gunners and Artillery teams. They call Nuln "the armoury of the Empire" because it manufactures almost every artillery piece, gun and Steam Tank in the Empire. because its a very industrial city, much of the population is working or middle class, as a result, the city is infamous for its merchant crime families, gangs and smugglers. (the city is very much like Novigrad from the Witcher 3)

Wissenland as a whole is a very industrial and working/middle class place which makes the richer provinces of the empire look down on it as a disgusting backwater place. Wissenlander's themselves are a Dour, Pious and hardened people, due to their professions, the barren landscape, harsh winters and an attack they endured From Gorbad Ironclaw; who sacked Nuln and commited a genocide of the province hundreds of years ago (there used to be another Provence here called Solland which was wiped out so completely that it had to be largely recolonised and assimilated by Wissenland)

How this could translate into Warhammer 2


Unit Roster Buffs: Naturally, Wissenland would be a Gunpowder focused faction, with buffs to artillery, Rifles and outriders.

Suitable Climates: Due to the geography of their province, their proclivity toward mining, and the fact that they utilise underground cavers: Wissenland should absolutely be acclimatised to Mountainous regions and perhaps wastelands as well (this works from both a lore and gameplay perspective), I would also love to see them be able to utilise the underway mechanic that is available to many other factions (or at the very least, I would like to see them be able to travel through the River of Echoes to TIlea)

Early Dilemma: I think it would be fair to suggest that the relationship between Wisseland and the surrounding Dwarfs is a bit rocky. In the Warhammer campaign, Clan Angrund, Karak Norn and Karak Hirn are your closest neighbours. Its simple enough to get Military access right off the bat but some players might want an excuse to conquer these lands. for this reason, I propose an early game Dilemma (within the first 5 Turns) where the Ruling council of Nuln or the Empire in general, demand an expansion of your mining operations. The Dwarfs say they wont stand for this as it would violate your treaties with them to stay off what they claim is theirs. If you choose to proceed with expanding your mines you get a bump to your income but a massive diplomatic penalty with the surrounding Dwarfs. If you choose to abide by the treaties and perhaps compensate the Dwarfs a little, you get a big diplomatic buff with the surrounding Dwarfs.

this lets you decide between conquest and alliance and it also speeds up your good will with the Dwarfs. So, if you didn't want to fight them, but instead wait for military access (which only takes about 5 turns anyway) you can ensure that this happens and happens as fast as possible to get you going.

Nuln Gunnery School and workshops: The Gunnery School could be so much more than just a unique building chain: you could make it into its own tech tree like what Clan Skryre has at the moment, where you pay for or research different buffs and unlock Regiments of Renown.

Wissenland is supposed to be the only place that truly makes the best of the best Artillery and gunpowder weapons, therefore, you could take all of the gunpowder Regiments of Renown that are in the game right now and make them exclusive to Wissenland (exclusive to the workshop). this makes sense and makes it so that other Empire provinces cant get them without buying them from Wissenland or conquering/confederating it to gain access to the workshop (you don't really get them until pretty late anyway and I've never seen the AI use Regiments of Renown).

Start Position: Despite being next to the Empire, Wissenland actually has the best access to the largest number of Races out of any Empire faction in the early game. I went in and tested this via faction unlocker mods and, from within Wissenland's closest settlements, without any movement buffs (not even Route Marcher) you can get to the Dwarfs (closest is 2 Turns away), Wood elves (5 Turns away), Skaven (9 Turns away), Border Princes (4 Turns away), Greenskins (2-4 Turns away) Tilea (5 Turns away) Sartosa (9-10 Turns away) and the Bloody Handz (9 turns) all within 10 Turns. you can reach the badlands within about 6 Turns and remember: this is just the time it takes without forced march or Movement buffs. some of these might seem far away but, this was a measurement of going straight there from Pfieldorf or Nuln, there are plenty of places in between.

Also, if you wait until Averland gives you military access or is destroyed (one or the other happened consistently around turn 14 for me), you can start digging into the vampires within 3 turns.

Isn't Averland a better Start?


Some people advocate more for Averland as a starting position because they want a lord who can attempt to curb the Vampire Counts expansion into the Empire and they assume that Averland has better access to the border princes. In reality: Wissenland and Averland have relatively equal access to the Border Princes: it takes 4 turns for Wissenland to conquer Zvorak and it takes 2 turns + siege time for Averland to conquer Akendorf (which is usually garrisoned at the start by one of the Border Princes starting armies). Wissenland has an easier time getting their foot in the door and is in a good position to meet border prince armies out in the field and conquer Matorca and Karak Angazhar in rapid succession. where as Averland will have a struggle, but if they manage it, they will have a stronger foothold in the region, with a walled settlement. As I said its somewhat relative.

As for the Vampires: I believe that Averland wouldn't just curb the Vampires expansion, they would grind it to a halt and put Vlad in an even weaker position than he already is. The vampires are the only real threat to the Empire and even then, they usually get taken out or put under control before the mid game starts in my experience. Having Averland at their doorstep would throw that completely off balance. On the other hand: if Wissenland were to be implemented: Averland would act as a great cushion, making sure that neither side can reach right away, giving them time to gather strength. Even Ostermark would be a better choice, because they are designed to fight undead and from their position, they would have to go through Templehof first, which is another perfect cushion.

Whose in charge Here?


The Elector Countess who rules this province, is one: Emmanuelle von Liebwitz. Emmanuelle was a childhood friend to Karl Franz, she had a poor claim to the title of Elector Count but by pulling strings with her life long friend, she was able to gain the title over the other suitors. (some even say that she seduced him) she has no skill for ruling or governing, nor does she want to handle such things. Instead, she took the title because of the prestige it it would grant her and because it would allow her to live in the highest luxury (gotta love how Games workshop portrays women don't you). She adores the high society of Nuln and spends most of her time throwing lavish parties, indulging in the theatre and things like that. "She loves the culture, the pomp, the majesty, its history, and its deep coffers". she's assembled a council of lesser nobles, merchants and Churchmen and rarely shows up to meetings on stately matters. She Detests the rest of Wissenland and the commoners who inhabit it. she wants nothing to do with it, to the point where she has been in negotiations with Franz to break Nuln away from Wissenland all together; make it a city state all its own with her as the head and a new electoral vote all to itself (meaning there would be 11 Elector Counts).

Because of what shes like, she wouldn't be the leader of the faction (perhaps in the diplomacy screen but even then, she never shows up).

How this could translate to Warhammer 2


The countess could be a feature of your campaign and there are multiple forms this could take:

1: she and/or the council of Nuln, could issue you missions: either being mandates from the council or simply from the whims of the countess herself (she could demand you declare war on the faction of someone who offended her or she could demand that you acquire luxury resources through conquest or trade for her).

2: She could be a nuisance, getting herself into trouble: falling out with other elector counts at one of her lavish gatherings. Wielding her power as countess in a way that is brash, selfish and imprudent, which then affects you diplomatically.

3: The countess could be linked to public order or your diplomatic standing. Since she is the real power behind the Province, you must follow her instructions (if she even gives them) and if you don’t, you could suffer penalties, as she claims you are out of control.

Legendary Lords and Heroes

Elsbeth Von Draken

Elsbeth is one of the most powerful amethyst wizard of the age. She acts as the countess’s tactician and commands her troops when she is summoned, as mentioned in this quote:

“During the conflict of the chaos host of Tamurkhan, Elspeth von Draken appeared in the Council of the Countess Emmanuelle like a spectre of death itself, gowned in robes so black as to appear as living darkness and bearing a keening scythe so sharp it seemed to murder the still air. It was her council that the Countess Emmanuelle took in forming up her armies to defend Nuln itself rather than meet Tamurkhan in the open field of battle, and such was the fear that came with Elspeth von Draken's presence that few gainsaid her despite the cost the strategy entailed in lands, livestock and human life.”

She is something of a recluse who is feared by the people of Nuln; she spends most of her time within the confines of her tower that stands near the Church of Morr on the outskirts of Nuln, or in another tower just like it which lies hidden, deep within the grey mountains. it is said that she is an ardent researcher, who is always on the hunt for lost lore and artefacts and runs experiments constantly to discover the powers of what she finds and further her skill and knowledge in the arcane.

She is a much darker character than the empire is accustomed to: in her magic, appearance and perhaps her personality too. She has had an unnaturally long lifespan of more than 3 generations and yet still remains the image of youth. She is able to vanish into shadow, teleport and is said to be trapped in a perpetual state between life and death. (in Table Top, exorcisms and things that damage undead and chaos affect her as well). All this has raised the suspicion of the head of the college of mages: Balthasar Gelt who has agents regularly spy on her and whose mistrust of her worries his peers, as they fear his paranoia and disdain may provoke an open conflict between the two.

Despite the fear and suspicion of von Draken and despite her reclusive nature: she is a true scion of the empire, who regularly rides atop a carmine dragon into battle against the Empires foes. Many of the conflicts where she has slain great evil or saved entire Towns from being overrun, aren't widely known; and the only reason we do know about them is through Gelt's Spies. This implies to me that she wishes to keep her privacy and while she has the desire to protect the Empire and its people, she is still very much an introvert and doesn't at all want to be in the spotlight if she can help it.


I'm not sure why she looks so old in her model when shes supposed to be eternally young.


Here she is, in game, via Mixu's Legendary Lords Mod.

Translated into Warhammer 2: she would be an amethyst wizard Legendary Lord with a Carmine dragon mount, who Buffs winds of magic, research rate and possibly Gunpowder units as well (simply because of the Faction and province). She could also cause something like -2 public order in her own provinces, since people have a kind of fear and prejudice against her.

Jubal Falk

Jubal is an Engineer at the Nuln Imperial Gunnery School and the current field commander of the Ironsides (the ironsides are heavily armoured riflemen form the School who act as part of Wissenland's army and protect the Nuln artillery trains).

He is described here as: "an engineer with a flair for tactical matters who many see as a rising star and future Guildmaster of the school. Born a cooper's son on the river wharf's of Nuln, Falk's natural talents and dogged enforcement of discipline have seen him rise rapidly in the ranks of the Ironsides, and he is respected by those under him both for his skills as a military engineer and as an honourable man if one notoriously unforgiving of slackness or incompetency"

Hes a Seasoned fighter and was instrumental in the battle against chaos that Elsbeth planned and partook in. he uses a Hochland Longrifle and has the ability to use Alchemical bullets.



Translated into Warhammer 2: Jubal isn't explicitly stated to be a Master Engineer, however, he is noted as being a rising star of the school who may one day become its Guildmaster and in terms of implementation, even if he wasn't a full blown master, it would make perfect sense to implement him as one regardless. the addition of him means we could implement generic Lord or Hero Master Engineers along side him (also, him carrying a Hochland Longrifle means we could implement them at the same time too). naturally he gives buffs to all gunpowder units, including great buffs to their leadership when within his Aura. himself and the other master engineers could act similar to the Dwarf ones or the Gunnery wights obviously and he could have the ability to use his Alchemical explosive shots too.

Theodore Bruckner


This guy is literally the mountain from game of thrones (they call him "the hound" though). hes the countess's champion who fights trials by combat for her (he was once disarmed in a trial and he then proceeded to break his opponents back like bane), hes a huge wall of a man, who some suspect of having been experimented upon at the behest of the countess to make him that way (again, just like the Mountain) and he rides on the back of an equally giant Demigryph called Reaper. He is the countess's right hand. dealing out Judgement and hunting down Wissenlands enemies. he also partook in the battle with chaos, alongside Elsbeth and Jubal.

on foot, He fights with a shield and his sword: Liarsbane, which has been the sword of Nuln's champions for generations. While riding Reaper he, wields his Stormlance which is engraved with runes of the Heavens magic. it kind of explodes with lightning heavens magic when he strikes an enemy, both burning them and knocking them back. Finally he carries an amulet given to him by Elsbeth which protects him against dark magic.






Translating into Warhammer 2: I'd kind of like him to be a lord but really he is a hero through and through. he should function like an assassin hero who trains troops when embedded. He can have his two weapons by default when hes either on foot or on his mount and Reaper and his amulet could be unlockable in his skill tree.

In Closing, I hope this has brought to some peoples attention a faction that is often dismissed or overlooked in the discourse and I really hope we can see it implemented one day.
Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
«1

Comments

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    edited July 2019
    Here's their Potential Units:

    Gundel's defenders: regiment of spears who were formed after Gorbad sacked Nuln. spacifically used to defend artillery pieces.

    I love the potential of these guys because they could be used in different ways: every Wissenland artillery piece could come with them at the front and they could act like living palisades (like the ones britonnian archers have) protecting the pieces from the front with a crouched shieldwall (though they would be few in number). you could also give the artillery the ability to detach the spears from the unit when they are attacked, allowing you to move the artillery out of danger while the spears fight the foe.

    or you could simply have them be spearmen infantry with unique formations, to allow them to form up in a semi circle around allied units. or perhaps they could be like a defensive depth guard where they are few in number but very powerful (in this case, very tankie).

    Schwarzspears

    The Knights Griffon (Knights Panther, who became templars)

    Gunther’s Sootmen: handgunners, Rivals to the zweishots. Better accuracy, work best at mid to long range (could be the WIssenland equivolent to Hochland snipers)

    The Zweishots: handgunners, rivles to the sootmen, fast reload and rate of fire, low armour, work better at mid to close range (these guys do more damage the closer the target, so they could work like flanking missile units or even something comparable to Deck Gunners since they're all about rapid fire)

    The Swords of Nuln (Countess's personal retainer)

    Erwin’s Marksmen

    The Marshal’s Rifles “hawkeyes”: ROR handgunners

    Black-Reik Guards / Black-Reik Guns

    Wicked Lucille (RoR mortar crew)

    Long Tom (RoR cannon crew)

    The Sterntower Marksmen (elite crossbowmen)

    Pikemen (its mentioned that they have exceptional pikemen but they aren't referred to by name)

    Nuln Ironsides (heavy armoured and disciplined Rifle/handgunners)

    If you know of anymore or have anymore information on these units let me know in the comments.
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • BoombastekBoombastek Registered Users Posts: 2,121
    edited July 2019
    Didn't read even 1/10 of whole text, but i thought it will contain something about uniq units.

    I doubt about it.

    Wisseland would be same as Reikland starting position. Empire need Sudenburg. In starting Tic Tak campaign intro, clearly said that Sudenburg belong to empire.

    And to think who for real expande into desert of TK. Cos in late game i never want to fight against TK, it kind hard.

    But desert climat for Empire is green. So it best flesh to old Empire as playable Sudenburg.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,020
    Memento mori.

    Guess that will become my favourite saying for these forums. Because some people don't have any limits.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Registered Users Posts: 2,278
    edited July 2019
    Doubtful, but not impossible.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    edited July 2019

    Didn't read even 1/10 of whole text, but i thought it will contain something about uniq units.

    I doubt about it.

    Wisseland would be same as Reikland starting position. Empire need Sudenburg. In starting Tic Tak campaign intro, clearly said that Sudenburg belong to empire.

    And to think who for real expande into desert of TK. Cos in late game i never want to fight against TK, it kind hard.

    But desert climat for Empire is green. So it best flesh to old Empire as playable Sudenburg.

    The second post contains a unit list. Middenland is also right next to the empire and actually has a worse start than wissenland because it's land locked by other empire factions. Middenland's start is truly the one who is like the Empire, where as Wissenland has access to a ton of new factions that the Empire itself can't reach until much later. You could take the campaign multiple different routes: going into Athel Loren, the Vampires, Tilea and down to Sartosa, (or even past that to Suddenburg), the Badlands, Bretonnia, etc. All within reach and easily accessible (the Empire is very much anchored geopolitically. Wissenland is more sheltered so it has the ability to reach out easier and faster than Franz does.

    Suddenburg would be cool and I understand the desire for a drastic change of pace and location. But I went over this in the other 9/10ths as I said I would in the very beginning.
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • goliath55goliath55 Registered Users Posts: 713
    Those Theodore Bruckner models are cool.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,055
    Start Position: Despite being next to the Empire, Wissenland actually has the best access to the largest number of Races out of any Empire faction in the early game. I went in and tested this via faction unlocker mods and, from within Wissenland's closest settlements, without any movement buffs (not even Route Marcher) you can get to the Dwarfs (closest is 2 Turns away), Wood elves (5 Turns away), Skaven (9 Turns away), Border Princes (4 Turns away), Greenskins (2-4 Turns away) Tilea (5 Turns away) Sartosa (9-10 Turns away) and the Bloody Handz (9 turns) all within 10 Turns. you can reach the badlands within about 6 Turns and remember: this is just the time it takes without forced march or Movement buffs. some of these might seem far away but, this was a measurement of going straight there from Grenzstadt or Nuln, there are plenty of places in between.

    Also, if you wait until Averland gives you military access or is destroyed (one or the other happened consistenetly around turn 14 for me), you can start digging into the vampires within 3 turns.

    Some people advocate more for Averland as a starting position because they want a lord who can attempt to curb the Vampire Counts expansion into the Empire and they assume that Averland has better access to the border princes. In reality: Wissenland and Averland have relatively equal access to the Border Princes: it takes 4 turns for Wissenland to conquer Zvorak and it takes 2 turns + siege time for Averland to conquer Akendorf (which is usually garrisoned at the start by one of the Border Princes starting armies). Wissenland has an easier time getting their foot in the door and is in a good position to meet border prince armies out in the field and conquer Matorca and Karak Angazhar in rapid succession. where as Averland will have a struggle, but if they manage it, they will have a stronger foothold in the region, with a walled settlement. As I said its somewhat relative.


    Though the use of faction unlocker mods you've corrupted your own results intentionally or unintentionally as the faction unlocker mods does not account for how CA actually does faction starts as since Wissenland has more then 2 regions their start will have you with only Nuln as only the factions that start with more then 1 region are in a 2 region province.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • TotalWar78TotalWar78 Registered Users Posts: 323
    Im always amazed when someone puts such a detailed proposition of some faction, and gives some very cool suggestions, and then someone puts a comment like...Nah, I only want new LL, new start position and some new units.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    edited July 2019
    @Arthas_Menethil the data I collected was simply to test distance. All this requires is a base level lord with no buffs within the factions closest settlement and then moving from said settlement. You could try it with a Level 1 lord as any faction. I used the faction unlocker to save time so I could get right to the desired location.

    I placed an army within Phieldorf or Nuln (depending on which was closer to the foreign settlement) and moved from there, out until I reached it (then I did the same in forced march).

    I did the exact same thing with Averland. Placing an army in either Averheim or Grenzstadt (depending on which was closer) then moved out to a foreign settlement. Doing the same again with forced march.

    I don't see any way this data would be corruptible. The campaigns may look or act very different when implemented sure; but that doesn't change the distance between settlements, nor the movement speed of generals (Unless they add new settlements or reshape the map).
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,055

    @Arthas_Menethil the data I collected was simply to test distance. All this requires is a base level lord with no buffs within the factions closest settlement and then moving from said settlement. You could try it with a Level 1 lord as any faction. I used the faction unlocked to save time so I could get right to the desired location.

    I placed an army within Phieldorf or Nuln (depending on which was closer to the foreign settlement) and moved from there, out until I reached it (then I did the same in forced march).

    I did the exact same thing with Averland. Placing an army in either Averheim or Grenzstadt (depending on which was closer) then moved out to a foreign settlement. Doing the same again with forced march.

    I don't see any way this data would be corruptible. The campaigns may look or act very different when implemented sure; but that doesn't change the distance between settlements, nor the movement speed of generals (Unless they add new settlements or reshape the map).

    Because it has to be from Nuln because a Wissenland start will only start with Nuln with the initial actions being retaking Wissenland and the faction unlocker only takes one settlement off Wissenland to throw at the Empire Secessionists in one region as siegeing the other parts of Wissenland will affect any attempt of going to the other provinces. Even then the faction unlocker adds too many units as it adds four instead of three that everyone gets. So yes Faction unlocker results are not what CA would give.

    Averland avoids the 3 regions and above early game by being a 2 region province (like the playable Bretonnians) so their times at attacking others is quicker as those with a 3 and above region province will be securing their province.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663

    @Arthas_Menethil the data I collected was simply to test distance. All this requires is a base level lord with no buffs within the factions closest settlement and then moving from said settlement. You could try it with a Level 1 lord as any faction. I used the faction unlocked to save time so I could get right to the desired location.

    I placed an army within Phieldorf or Nuln (depending on which was closer to the foreign settlement) and moved from there, out until I reached it (then I did the same in forced march).

    I did the exact same thing with Averland. Placing an army in either Averheim or Grenzstadt (depending on which was closer) then moved out to a foreign settlement. Doing the same again with forced march.

    I don't see any way this data would be corruptible. The campaigns may look or act very different when implemented sure; but that doesn't change the distance between settlements, nor the movement speed of generals (Unless they add new settlements or reshape the map).

    Because it has to be from Nuln because a Wissenland start will only start with Nuln with the initial actions being retaking Wissenland and the faction unlocker only takes one settlement off Wissenland to throw at the Empire Secessionists in one region as siegeing the other parts of Wissenland will affect any attempt of going to the other provinces. Even then the faction unlocker adds too many units as it adds four instead of three that everyone gets. So yes Faction unlocker results are not what CA would give.

    Averland avoids the 3 regions and above early game by being a 2 region province (like the playable Bretonnians) so their times at attacking others is quicker as those with a 3 and above region province will be securing their province.
    You misunderstood: The test was not to show the distance from turn 1. It was to show the distance from within the factions territory. You have just illustrated perfectly why measuring it from turn 1 would be a waste of time, as it requires conjecture and depends on the starting army, starting location within your province, rebels etc.

    Again: I only wanted to show how long it would take to get from the factions closest settlement, to another foreign settlement or region.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    @Arthas_Menethil Personally I don't believe the time from turn 1 would matter unless you're doing a speed run or something. Everyone is going to go at their own pace and seize opportunities, as they present themselves to the player with each dynamic playthough. The distance on its own is what counts because it doesn't depend on any variables. Time from turn 1 isn't an objective good nor bad because the thing that hinders one faction over another could make for a more interesting starting dilemma, level you up more from the start and so on.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,020
    edited July 2019

    @Arthas_Menethil Personally I don't believe the time from turn 1 would matter unless you're doing a speed run or something. Everyone is going to go at their own pace and seize opportunities, as they present themselves to the player with each dynamic playthough. The distance on its own is what counts because it doesn't depend on any variables. Time from turn 1 isn't an objective good nor bad because the thing that hinders one faction over another could make for a more interesting starting dilemma, level you up more from the start and so on.

    So what exactly was the point of these measurements at all? If a playthrough varies so much there's no useful data provided from your measurements that would attest to its value. Further you go the more uniform your territory would be with a Reikland playthrough and closer the provinces are the sooner they converge in this aspect. With this in mind Averland is better varied because a) it IS closer to Vampires and Greenskins of Badlands who have a tendency to go after Averland and doesn't have other distractions that Wissenland has, b) it is further from Reikland than Wissenland is, and c) as of the recent update factions rarely die so your proposition that Nuln is effectively same as Averland concerning Vampires doesn't stand since they rarely break even Stirland and Averland is the second option that they occasionally invade.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    Crossil said:

    @Arthas_Menethil Personally I don't believe the time from turn 1 would matter unless you're doing a speed run or something. Everyone is going to go at their own pace and seize opportunities, as they present themselves to the player with each dynamic playthough. The distance on its own is what counts because it doesn't depend on any variables. Time from turn 1 isn't an objective good nor bad because the thing that hinders one faction over another could make for a more interesting starting dilemma, level you up more from the start and so on.

    So what exactly was the point of these measurements at all? If a playthrough varies so much there's no useful data provided from your measurements that would attest to its value. Further you go the more uniform your territory would be with a Reikland playthrough and closer the provinces are the sooner they converge in this aspect. With this in mind Averland is better varied because a) it IS closer to Vampires and Greenskins of Badlands who have a tendency to go after Averland and doesn't have other distractions that Wissenland has, b) it is further from Reikland than Wissenland is, and c) as of the recent update factions rarely die so your proposition that Nuln is effectively same as Averland concerning Vampires doesn't stand since they rarely break even Stirland and Averland is the second option that they occasionally invade.
    Because the distance doesn't change....I stated that already.

    Like I said before: the point was to show you how close other factions are, not how fast you can get to them from turn 1. This information is valuable when comparing other possible Empire factions like Averland because it shows you how many factions Wissenland has access to from the start and how quickly you can make your way to any number of them.

    It also shows you that Averland doesn't have any substantial advantage over wissenland, despite what some people assume. (Perhaps from turn 1 but that doesn't affect accessibility, just means you could potentially get there a turn or two earlier if you so desired (again, variables mean that this doesn't really matter. Distance affects your access, regardless of variables).
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,055

    @Arthas_Menethil the data I collected was simply to test distance. All this requires is a base level lord with no buffs within the factions closest settlement and then moving from said settlement. You could try it with a Level 1 lord as any faction. I used the faction unlocked to save time so I could get right to the desired location.

    I placed an army within Phieldorf or Nuln (depending on which was closer to the foreign settlement) and moved from there, out until I reached it (then I did the same in forced march).

    I did the exact same thing with Averland. Placing an army in either Averheim or Grenzstadt (depending on which was closer) then moved out to a foreign settlement. Doing the same again with forced march.

    I don't see any way this data would be corruptible. The campaigns may look or act very different when implemented sure; but that doesn't change the distance between settlements, nor the movement speed of generals (Unless they add new settlements or reshape the map).

    Because it has to be from Nuln because a Wissenland start will only start with Nuln with the initial actions being retaking Wissenland and the faction unlocker only takes one settlement off Wissenland to throw at the Empire Secessionists in one region as siegeing the other parts of Wissenland will affect any attempt of going to the other provinces. Even then the faction unlocker adds too many units as it adds four instead of three that everyone gets. So yes Faction unlocker results are not what CA would give.

    Averland avoids the 3 regions and above early game by being a 2 region province (like the playable Bretonnians) so their times at attacking others is quicker as those with a 3 and above region province will be securing their province.
    You misunderstood: The test was not to show the distance from turn 1. It was to show the distance from within the factions territory. You have just illustrated perfectly why measuring it from turn 1 would be a waste of time, as it requires conjecture and depends on the starting army, starting location within your province, rebels etc.

    Again: I only wanted to show how long it would take to get from the factions closest settlement, to another foreign settlement or region.
    You literally put siege time down. Read the full quote.
    "it takes 4 turns for Wissenland to conquer Zvorak and it takes 2 turns + siege time for Averland to conquer Akendorf (which is usually garrisoned at the start by one of the Border Princes starting armies). Wissenland has an easier time getting their foot in the door and is in a good position to meet border prince armies out in the field and conquer Matorca and Karak Angazhar in rapid succession."
    You completely miss out any fighting over Wissenland to put over Wissenland.

    The factions territory will literally just be Nuln if it is made a start position because it'll changed to reflect those changes as shown with Avelorn after the changes from the queen and the crone they no longer hold the whole province they just hold the their one settlement.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,020

    Crossil said:

    @Arthas_Menethil Personally I don't believe the time from turn 1 would matter unless you're doing a speed run or something. Everyone is going to go at their own pace and seize opportunities, as they present themselves to the player with each dynamic playthough. The distance on its own is what counts because it doesn't depend on any variables. Time from turn 1 isn't an objective good nor bad because the thing that hinders one faction over another could make for a more interesting starting dilemma, level you up more from the start and so on.

    So what exactly was the point of these measurements at all? If a playthrough varies so much there's no useful data provided from your measurements that would attest to its value. Further you go the more uniform your territory would be with a Reikland playthrough and closer the provinces are the sooner they converge in this aspect. With this in mind Averland is better varied because a) it IS closer to Vampires and Greenskins of Badlands who have a tendency to go after Averland and doesn't have other distractions that Wissenland has, b) it is further from Reikland than Wissenland is, and c) as of the recent update factions rarely die so your proposition that Nuln is effectively same as Averland concerning Vampires doesn't stand since they rarely break even Stirland and Averland is the second option that they occasionally invade.
    Because the distance doesn't change....I stated that already.

    Like I said before: the point was to show you how close other factions are, not how fast you can get to them from turn 1. This information is valuable when comparing other possible Empire factions like Averland because it shows you how many factions Wissenland has access to from the start and how quickly you can make your way to any number of them.

    It also shows you that Averland doesn't have any substantial advantage over wissenland, despite what some people assume. (Perhaps from turn 1 but that doesn't affect accessibility, just means you could potentially get there a turn or two earlier if you so desired (again, variables mean that this doesn't really matter. Distance affects your access, regardless of variables).
    Except that people mostly don't march their armies 5+ turns in any direction and most of the variance comes from early game not territories that are further away than the bordering settlement. Therefore majority of the factions you listed fundamentally don't affect gameplay until mid to late game which is already relatively similar between factions that start next to each other. In this aspect early game is more important here and Averland does get early gameplay more affected by Vampire Counts. Early game Wissenland is relatively similar to Reikland(internal Empire squabbles and nearby Greenskins).
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • BoombastekBoombastek Registered Users Posts: 2,121

    Im always amazed when someone puts such a detailed proposition of some faction, and gives some very cool suggestions, and then someone puts a comment like...Nah, I only want new LL, new start position and some new units.

    You missed that empire rework would be flc.
  • doclumbagodoclumbago Registered Users Posts: 1,607
    Lady Van Draken is the best argument for a Nuln subfaction to me.
    She however perfectly fits into the Land Of The Dead.
    So Sudenburg makes more sense.
  • ArizonaBlack1ArizonaBlack1 Registered Users Posts: 264
    Very cool thoughts and ideas! I really like this, keep it up and don’t let the haters bring you down.
  • LordCommanderLordCommander Registered Users Posts: 1,259
    This message was brought to you by the Wissenland tourist board.
  • TotalWar78TotalWar78 Registered Users Posts: 323

    Im always amazed when someone puts such a detailed proposition of some faction, and gives some very cool suggestions, and then someone puts a comment like...Nah, I only want new LL, new start position and some new units.

    You missed that empire rework would be flc.
    I meant in general when someone gives cool idea that can refresh and give game more flavour to the game, some people are like, no, I want some units, and that's it. In another words, very narrow minded thinking.
  • jgmasterjgmaster Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 600
    Great post, the more Empire the better.

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    edited July 2019
    @crossil @Arthas_Menethil *sigh. Right lads, you asked for it so here's a full explanation.

    I see that I'm going to have to explain my reasoning further than what I wrote initially. the reason i didn't fully go into it in my original post is because i didn't want to bog down the post anymore than i had to. this subject is somewhat tangential to the case I was making for Wissenland and also, I did not want to antagonise anyone by putting a massive section in the middle comparing and contrasting Wissenland with Averland. I apologise if my lack of explanation left you confused.

    The Premise: People always brush Wissenland off as being too similar to the Empire and inferior to Averland as a starting position so I wanted to go into the game and test for myself the proximity of other factions to Wissenland and Averland. I had no desire, nor any intention of showing how long it would take from turn 1 because of all the things we just discussed: there are too many variables and being able to get somewhere faster from turn 1 is not an objective good. not in any sense.

    "You literally put siege time down" I did yes. This is because I did not simply collect the data, I analysed it a bit so as to put it into perspective for the reader. Raw data on its own is completely useless without the proper context.

    If I simply put down that Averland can reach Akendorf in 2 turns then people would assume that it has superior access to the border princes Territory, when in reality: this settlement must be besieged and I believe it houses one of the border princes two armies around the start of the campaign. It was important for me to give context on Akendorf in particular because people believe that Averland alone has the best access to the Border Princes territory and simply showing "2 turns" would confirm the bias they already have. when In actuality: Averland and Wissenland have relatively equal access with their own upsides and downsides. hence why I said:

    "In reality: Wissenland and Averland have relatively equal access to the Border Princes: it takes 4 turns for Wissenland to conquer Zvorak and it takes 2 turns + siege time for Averland to conquer Akendorf (which is usually garrisoned at the start by one of the Border Princes starting armies). Wissenland has an easier time getting their foot in the door and is in a good position to meet border prince armies out in the field and conquer Matorca and Karak Angazhar in rapid succession. where as Averland will have a struggle, but if they manage it, they will have a stronger foothold in the region, with a walled settlement. As I said its somewhat relative."

    I was throwing Averland fans a bone when I said that because I don't want this to become a war of minutia. Wissenland has a slight advantage in my opinion, because by taking Zvorak: you cut the Border Princes in half and force their armies to come to you, meaning you can fight their armies out on the field and you wont find yourself in the predicament Averland does: where you have to go up against a Major settlement and an army really early, or you besiege it and pray that no army comes to reinforce. Wissenland can potentially cut them down the middle and then destroy their armies in the field which would leave them totally defenceless. again, that's somewhat subjective though, which is why i left that opinion out of my original post.

    "Except that people mostly don't march their armies 5+ turns in any direction"

    My measurements and analysis were meant to display what Wissenland and Averland have access to in terms of other factions and regions of the map and how they compare to one another. The key word here is "ACCESS" because its not just about who you can fight or what territory you can conquer early on, its about how close or far you are from all of these areas and races (only way to measure distance properly in game is via turn times).

    maybe you don't want to besiege the Kings Glade as Wissenland early on (I sure as hell wouldn't) but that Wood Elves settlement is still only 5 turns from you. they are really close and so you will likely be able to interact with them in some way early on: whether that means you fight one of their armies out in the field or try to broker an alliance with them or you try your luck in besieging Orion really early. These are all possibilities that make your neighbours more interesting than what you have as other Empire factions. No matter how you interact with them, they are there and there is the potential for multiple outcomes.

    I don't expect people to trek all the way over to Da Great Green Prophet right away but he is a major faction in a major settlement who could be a potential target depending on what you do.

    "most of the variance comes from early game not territories that are further away than the bordering settlement. Therefore majority of the factions you listed fundamentally don't affect gameplay until mid to late game which is already relatively similar between factions that start next to each other. In this aspect early game is more important here and Averland does get early gameplay more affected by Vampire Counts. Early game Wissenland is relatively similar to Reikland(internal Empire squabbles and nearby Greenskins)"

    Nope. Wissenland is in the unique position of being relatively sheltered. you've got mountains and allies on at least two sides of you. so the only way someone can attack you is if one of your allies falls, if they have the underway ability and specifically target you, or they come up through that narrow pass between the Black and Grey Mountains. In this way: Wissenland has the potential to strike out at enemies who border your neighbours instead of those who border you (you can also attack your neighbours though). if you befriend the surrounding Dwarfs then they can act as a buffer for you and you can expand past them to the Border Princes, the Badlands, Bretonnia or even down where the Crusaders are if you want to.

    on the other hand: if you attack the Dwarfs its going to be a relatively easy fight: Belegar is sadly really weak, Karak Norn has only 2 settlements and one of them is right next to you and undefended. Once you kill them you have two, maybe 3 Major Settlement Karaks in the mountains that surround you (The black mountains, Grey mountains and the Vaults could all be yours with relative ease). furthermore: between killing them and killing the Greenskins (broken Nose an Black Venom), you would likely garner the adoration of the Wood Elves, which might open up an alliance with them, meaning now you can expand without worrying about them (making you almost untouchable from this direction).

    so, considering what we have gone over so far: if we befriend the Dwarfs then fighting with Greenskins, Vampire Coast, Border Princes, Wood Elves, Skaven and Bretonnians could be easily done all in the early to mid game. if you go the other direction you could also Pacify the Vampire Counts.

    If you chose to fight the Dwarfs then you could be fighting Dwarfs, Greenskins, Border Princes, Vampire Coast, Skaven and bretonnia in the early to mid game (or again, Vamprie counts if you went the other way).

    and this is without taking into consideration the possible implementation of an underway mechanic for them or just the River of Echoes, which would allow you to jump from WIssenland straight into Tilea and back. this could speed things up even further.

    Obviously you cannot really go after everyone in every direction all at once: you will have to pick a direction, but these are the options you have available to you at the beginning.

    Now as for Averland: their start is the exact opposite in some respects: instead of having a province that is sheltered from enemies: you start bordered by the one big internal threat the empire has: the Vampire Counts, and you're probably going
    to have to deal with them first (if you dont you will be chancing it the whole time until they inevitably do attack you). and once you do get them under control, then what? you have only two real options from there for the early to mid game: either you go down and fight the Border Princes until they are pacified, or, you could ally with the border Princes and get knee deep in fighting Greenskins in the Badlands for the next X hundred turns (I'm exaggerating a tad of course).

    You could fight the Dwarfs but why would you? they are the only ones who will help you with both the Greenskins and the Vampires. its also kind of against Marius's lore and it would just be suicide. you could move around to the vaults, Tilea and all that once your done with the Border Princes, but by conquering all of the Border Princes territory, you've just inherited all of the Border Princes problems and will probably be forced into the badlands to protect your new borders.

    I know what you're thinking: if you choose to fight the Border Princes as Wissenland, you will likely have the same issue, correct! whenever you commit to conquering a new province you will inherent that provinces geopolitical issues, which usually means you have to commit to that area. but as i said: the border princes are one target and one direction out of a possible 4 or so possible targets and directions for Wissenland (BP and Badlands, Vampire Counts, surrounding Dwarfs, Tilea, Estalia and Sartosa, Bretonnia, event the Southlands potentially).

    where as Averland only really has two possible targets and directions for the early to mid game, and not only that: they kind of need to be conquered in a specific order too. this is just an unfortunate reality of how much of a threat the Vampire Counts would be to Averland and how much of a clusterfu*k the badlands are. (we haven't even discussed the possible problems that dealing with corruption could bring to Averland trying to tame Sylvania. this is another reason I suggested Ostermark as a much better candidate for fighting the Vampires, since they are much more suited for fighting corruption, they are experts at fighting undead and Templehof would protect both them and the Vampire Counts for a time as one or the other breaks through.


    "Wissenland will have rebels in Wissenburg and Pfieldorf" when playing with the mod and when playing without it as Skarsnik or Belegar I haven't noticed any rebels in Wissenland. I'm sure they used to have them but they've been replaced as of late with a Savage Orc faction known as the Skull-Takerz I think it is. Also, when the Rebels where there, i seem to distinctly remember them only occupying Wissenburg.

    but if rebels are implemented for Wissenland: again, this doesn't really affect what factions you could potentially interact with in the early game and how close they are to your province (if anything it adds two more early game targets for Wissenland)

    if there is something you are still unsure about let me know.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    edited July 2019
    @Crossil @Arthas_Menethil I should also point out something I thought would be obvious: I didn't Include other Empire factions as possible targets for either Wissenland or Averland. its kind of self explanatory as to why. there's only 10 of you in the Old World, you should be natural allies and if they ever introduce some sort of mechanic to do with uniting the Empire or Political intrigue between the Counts, then you will be insensitivised to not attack them (plus, wading through the whole of the empire fighting mirror matches doesn't sound great (i know the border princes are technically a mirror match too).
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    @TotalWar78 yup, there are a fair few people on the forums like that unfortunately. Sill, it shouldn't stop us trying to improve a game that we love and get the word out there on how we want to see it done. I'm really glad you liked my idea, thanks ^_^
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,467
    edited July 2019
    there are other races in more dire need of content like wood elves, emp has pretty much everything they need. Make Boris a proper LL in campaign and that's it.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    edited July 2019

    there are other races in more dire need of content like wood elves, emp has pretty much everything they need. Make Boris a proper LL in campaign and that's it.

    I think Boris would be a poor choice because he's already in the game. I'd much prefer Nordland if we were going for Ulrican factions because they aren't land locked like middenland, they have great access to Norsca and more importantly: it would require actual work other than unlocking Boris and slapping some random buffs on him.

    I agree though. The Wood Elves and beastmen need an update more. I don't know what's wrong with the greenskins but I do understand the want to give them an update too. (Honestly I think Bretonnia could do with a few more things as well). The Empire does need new toys as well though.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,020
    edited July 2019
    If you can just walk over Averland and Stirland to get to Vampire Counts then so can Averland walk over Wissenland to get to Southern Grey Mountains. Next, stepping into BP as Wissenland means you're walking over Dwarf territory, which can cause diplomatic repercussions while Averland doesn't. This does have effect on how people will perceive and behave in this regard, even further delaying Wissenland. And it is guaranteed that Pfeildorf and Wissenburg won't start under Wissenland's control so your calculations are already wrong as a start.

    Early interaction with Wood Elves, Dwarfs and Greenskins is also easy with Reikland, which isn't exactly what makes them as different. You counted in Tilea and Sartosa which require you to march again through mountains held by Dwarves so these factions again are hardly interactable until much later.

    In fact since you are so hellbent on just listing factions lets list factions which Averland has easier access with than Wissenland. Border Princes despite your reasoning are immediately accessible without any repercussions. Vampire Counts are too immediately accessible over a river. Beyond that you have a land route into the Badlands unlike a Wissenland start, which means interactions with mainline Dwarfs and Greenskins, beyond Sylvania you access the northern World's Edge Mountains.

    In fact your own statement works against you here. Wissenland is sheltered compared to Averland's relatively exposed position which means there are more options to strike out at.

    Edit: You also aren't forced to deal with Vampire Counts. It's advisable but you ignore them for 100 turns and it's perfectly possible they won't even get past Stirland and Ostermark.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    edited July 2019
    @Crossil

    "In fact since you are so hellbent on just listing factions lets list factions which Averland has easier access with than Wissenland. Border Princes despite your reasoning are immediately accessible without any repercussions. Vampire Counts are too immediately accessible over a river. Beyond that you have a land route into the Badlands unlike a Wissenland start, which means interactions with mainline Dwarfs and Greenskins, beyond Sylvania you access the northern World's Edge Mountains."

    ummm, I did go into what Averland has access to. did you not fully read my last comment?...yes, Border Princes are easily accessible in terms of their proximity but taking Akendorf would be another story. I never said Averland didn't have good access to them, I was pointing out how their access is not unique to them and that which one of the two has better access is relative to the current circumstances (where the border princes armies are and whether or not they might reinforce Akendorf's garrison).

    Wissenland can get to the Badlands within 6 Turns from more than one area: it takes them 6 turns to get across the water to Stonemine Tower and they can also go over the land to Barak Varr or Dok Karaz within 6 turns as well. Averland can Access the badlands 2 turns faster but they can only really enter through the same bit, unless they go out of their way to go round (in which case Wissenland has the advantage).

    I already covered the issue of walking over Belegar's territory multiple times. i stated in my original post that there should be a starting dilemma with Wissenland where you can chose whether to befriend them or defy them which puts you in good standing or poor standing and speeds up diplomacy if you want to go that route. Even without a starting dilemma, its simple enough to double up on positive diplomacy with Belegar if you are cuddling up to Karak Hirn and Karak Norn, and if you start your campaign with the Skull-Takerz in your territory (which you do at the moment). if you want to go the diplomatic route with him from there, you can offer to declare war on Broken Nose, Black Venom, Skarsnik and the Mutinous Gits.

    Tilea isn't that far away in the base game and i already said how they could implement the River of Echoes. sure, the Empire can interact with Karak Norn, Zilfin, Bretonnia and the Wood Elves from the other side of Athel Loren but its a totally different political landscape on the other side of the mountains where the Empire is, with Different expansion options and no access to the badlands or Border Princes.

    I thought you might mention that you could potentially go over Wissenland if you can just go over Averland, but remember everything I was just saying about the balance issue Averland might bring. As Wissenland: you already border alot of these factions, so you have started Diplomatic interaction from turn 1 or close too it, where as Averland has to make contact with them and Averland might not have the same good standing with the factions over that way as Wissenland might. This means Averland might have to wait longer for diplomacy to tick up or only be able to interact with the factions over here like Belegar via conquest.

    Because of the fact that you have to wait for military access with Averland to get to the Vampire Counts, I would naturally say that Averland has better access to them than Wissenland does. by the same measurement: I would say that Wissenland has better access to everything Averland cant reach without crossing its borders. (and Wissenland has more access to more stuff that can be tackled in a number of ways, where as Averland has limited options that must be dealt with in a specific order as i just went over).

    You dont have to deal with the Vampire Counts? are you joking? sure they can be really passive and not get past the moot for a while but not dealing with them on the hopes that this time the AI wont do what it usually does would be risky, if not outright stupid. Yes you can fight the Dwarfs as Marius but I already covered that too: fighting the Dwarfs when they are your only ally when trying to take down both the Vampires and Greenskins would be a bad move bordering on suicide.
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    edited July 2019
    @Crossil on that last note about Marius fighting the Dwarfs: I also stated before that in his lore he trusts Dwarfs more than he does humans. this shouldn't affect your play through but it will likely affect how CA would implement his diplomacy on turn 1. also: i don't think Averland would be justified in getting Mountainous regions (nor Wasteland) as a suitable climate unlike Wissenland.

    Averland is said to be one of the most fertile provinces in the Empire, with Rolling planes of farmland, except when you get close to the Black mountains (which is also said to be a fertile area where they have big Vineyards). its kind of the opposite of Wissenland: wissenland is craggy mountainous and infertile for the most part where they mine for the majority of their wealth. Averland is more lowland and very fertile where they do little to no mining.

    CA could still make them acclimatised but it would be purely for gameplay purposes. Wissenland can be justified by their lore, landscape and gameplay purposes to give them these climates.
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
Sign In or Register to comment.