Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Legendary lords battles:Gor-Rok the Great White Lizard vs Tetto'eko Astronomer of the Constellations

2

Comments

  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,992

    also, when you say better armour do you mean skaley skin? because he only has 1 more of that than Nakai. nakai would have a higher missile resistence being a Krox as well and also his Weapon has the ability to block attacks that he didn't even see coming.

    perhaps your right, maybe Nakai would be a little less of a tank and more a tank esc damage dealer., but then he would still likely outperform Gor'rok, who himself would still likely under perform compared to those already in the game in terms of his usefulness. unless hes absolutely massive (almost like how you could describe another candidate...) i don't see his defensive properties outweighing the mass, disruption and damage that the others could put out.

    You do not compare tanks on the damage they do as they are meant to outlast otherwise Kroq-Gar gets brought in and they both lose and other characters get chosen which brings us back to Tetto'eko.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited August 2019
    @Arthas_Menethil

    Personal comment removed.

    sure, they arent knights, engineers etc and yet reiksguard are franz's personal army, Sisters and handmaidens are Alarielles personal guard, Gelt spent much of his life researching gunpowder which is why he wears the character defining outfit that he does...

    the units that lords buff are always intrinsically tied to them as people. there would be no handmaidens without the ever queen, there would be no reiksguard without the emperor because defending them is the whole reason they exist. Volkmar isnt a flagelent, but hes the head of the cult of Sigmar.

    many Lords literally do buff what they are (especially tanks and damage dealers). skarsnik and his squig buff goblins, squigs, night gobbos etc because hes a night goblin with a squig. Grimgor buffs back orcs because thats what he is. Durthu buffs treemen and Treekin because thats what he is.

    Kroq gar buffs Saurus because hes a saurus. he also buffs carnos because he rides Grymloq. alith anar and shadow warriors. Lokhir and corsairs. Teclis and mages. Tehenauin and skinks. Tiktaq to and Ryppers/Terradons, Maz and temple guard (because hes one of the people they guard). Wulfric and mammoths and marauders (because hes a marauder who rides a mammoth) Throgg Buffs trolls...because, say it with me now.

    Damage dealing lords seem to specifically buff what they are so as to buff themselves even further (wulfric, Grimgor, Kroq Gar, Kolek, Throgg Etc)

    more often than not, lords buff what they are themselves, and if they don't then they buff a unit that is tied to them or exists purely because of them
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2019
    i shouldnt even have to explain what this means for Nakai and Gor Rok. even if i granted you that gor Rok could buff Krox, he would be missing out on the trick that every other tank/damage dealing lord has: he would be buffing Krox but not Saurus which is what he is.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,992
    edited August 2019

    @Arthas_Menethil


    Personal comment removed.

    sure, they arent knights, engineers etc and yet reiksguard are franz's personal army, Sisters and handmaidens are Alarielles personal guard, Gelt spent much of his like researching gunpowder which is why he wears the character defining outfit that he does...

    the units that lords buff are always intrinsically tied to them as people. there would be no handmaidens without the ever queen, there would be no reiksguard without the emperor because defending them is the whole reason they exist. Volkmar isnt a flagelent, but hes the head of the cult of Sigmar.

    Some Lords literally do buff what they are. skarsnik and his squig buff goblins, squigs, night gobbos etc because hes a night goblin with a squig. Grimgor buffs back orcs because thats what he is. Durthu buffs treemen and Treekin because thats what he is.

    Kroq gar buffs Saurus because hes a saurus. he also buffs carnos because he rides Grymloq. alith anar and shadow warriors. Lokhir and corsairs. Teclis and mages. Tehenauin and skinks. Tiktaq to and Ryppers/Terradons, Maz and temple guard (because hes one of the people they guard). Wulfric and mammoths and marauders (because hes a marauder who rides a mammoth) Throgg Buffs trolls...because, say it with me now.

    Damage dealing lords seem to specifically buff what they are so as to buff themselves even further (wulfric, Grimgor, Kroq Gar, Kolek, Throgg Etc)

    more often than not, lords buff what they are themselves, and if they dont then they buff a unit that is tied to them or exists purely because of them

    You were saying a Saurus would buff a Saurus because he's a Saurus
    Franz Buffs Reiksguard because they are his bodyguard not because he's some noble from Reikland.
    Grimgor Buffs Black orcs because of his "Da Immortulz" Black Orc Bodyguads not because he's some black orc.
    Lokhir buffs Corsairs because he's the only Black Ark Fleetmaster ingame and is done poorly (is pretty much a dreadlord)
    Gelt Buffs Artillary and ranged because of his research not because he's some mage.
    and etc
    Post edited by dge1 on
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    @Arthas_Menethil

    thanks, i know what a tank is.

    you seemed to miss the part where i explained how him being a tank is almost entirely useless when compared to his counterparts. having a foot lord tank is going to offer what exactly? the LM frontline is already one of the tankiest, if anything Nakai and Kroq gar end up synergising better with saurus as well because they need a hammer, not another single entity foot anvil.

    he could stand in the middle soaking up damage, meanwhile Grymloq would have eaten his way through the middle or Nakai would have hammered it into paste.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited August 2019
    @Arthas_Menethil

    Inappropriate comment removed.

    Grimgor is a black ork. skarsnik is a night gobblin. Alith is a shadow warrior/walker. Kroq gar is a saurus. Kolek is a dragon ogre shoggoth. teclis is a mage. Tehenauin is a skink. Tiktaq'to is a terradon rider. Lokhir is a corsair. Skrolk is a plauge monk. Settra is a chariot rider. Khatep is a Liche priest. Ungrim is a Slayer. isabella is a vampire lady. wurrzag is a savage orc. Wulfric is a marauder who rides a mammoth. Throgg is a troll. Durthu is a treeman. Kazrak is a Bestigor. Malagor is a brey shamen. morghur is a chaos spawn (very close to it). Archeon is a chaos warrior.

    that is most of the lords right there. now, you could argue that these characters are da bestest Black ork or Brey shamen but they fit the archetype none the less which is why they buff these units.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2019
    @Arthas_Menethil

    you also failed to address the fact that almost every Damage dealing and tank lord buffs the same thing that they are to buff themselves further. (edit: i think every single one of them does in fact, except for tyrion).
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,992

    @Arthas_Menethil

    you also failed to address the fact that almost every Damage dealing and tank lord buffs the same thing that they are to buff themselves further. (edit: i think every single one of them does in fact).

    Ah yes because Vlad the best foot lord whose a Tank buffs himself oh wait the only thing he buffs is speed and the siege attack trait. The best tank and foot lord does not buff himself.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited August 2019
    @Arthas_Menethil

    haha, the whole point of the vampire faction is that their units aren't like them at all (unless we're talking stragoi and Varghiests, or blood knights they are the closest similarity).

    Vlad literally cannot do this because none of the vampire units are like vampire foot lords.

    and by the way? the only damage buff Vlad gives to a unit is to himself and Isabella when they reinforce each other!


    Inappropriate comment removed.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2019
    @Arthas_Menethil

    Most lords buff at least one unit in their army but Vlad doesn't, its all him (likely to compensate for the fact that he cannot buff himself and another vampire unit at the same time).

    Edit: just checked Tyrion and he also only buffs himself to compensate for the fact that there is no comparable unit. All of his other buffs are passive and administrative.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2019
    @Arthas_Menethil

    so you see Arthas, we come to an impasse here in terms of the implementation of Gor'rok. Either Gor'rok Buffs Saurus to buff Himself or he purely focuses on himself; meaning he could be added as FLC any time, wouldn't help the roster, wouldn't complement new units or anything. either that, or he buffs 3 random units for no good reason (krox, Saurus and Temple Guard like you said before).

    so we have a tank lord who's a part of the faction with some of the tankiest infantry in the game (meaning they desperately need hammers and not more anvils). hes either going to buff saurus like Kroq gar or hes not going to buff anyone but himself. hes going to be relatively slow and vulnerable since hes a foot lord. hes also apparently going to be monstrous infantry but not a krox, meaning he could be really susceptible to missiles like other monstrous infantry. hes just a bigger version of the generic lord and hero of the LM and his campaign is going to involve what exactly?

    so again I ask: what could Gor'rok bring to the table that would be interesting and justify his inclusion over Oxyotl, Nakai or Tetto'Eko?

    Gor'Rok is the definition of FLC lord, He doesn't justify his own pack at all, he'd be simple to implement...why do we need him?
  • IokkoIokko Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 967
    This was such a good thread... Why'd you have to do this to it...
    Stating opinions as if they're facts in your signature and adding "Change my mind" doesn't make them facts, change my mind.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,992

    Arthas_Menethil

    so you see Arthas, we come to an impasse here in terms of the implementation of Gor'rok. Either Gor'rok Buffs Saurus to buff Himself or he purely focuses on himself; meaning he could be added as FLC any time, wouldn't help the roster, wouldn't complement new units or anything. either that, or he buffs 3 random units for no good reason (krox, Saurus and Temple Guard like you said before).

    so we have a tank lord who's a part of the faction with some of the tankiest infantry in the game (meaning they desperately need hammers and not more anvils). hes either going to buff saurus like Kroq gar or hes not going to buff anyone but himself. hes going to be relatively slow and vulnerable since hes a foot lord. hes also apparently going to be monstrous infantry but not a krox, meaning he could be really susceptible to missiles like other monstrous infantry. hes just a bigger version of the generic lord and hero of the LM and his campaign is going to involve what exactly?

    so again I ask: what could Gor'rok bring to the table that would be interesting and justify his inclusion over Oxyotl, Nakai or Tetto'Eko?

    Nakai: Because he would actually be a tank and not trying to compete with Kroq-Gar as I've looked over that image from awhile back and Nakai gets more strength then a Carnosaur so yeah Nakai steps on Kroq-Gar and Gor-Roks feet as that is not what you want from a Tank character (S 6 + 2 from item Grymloq has 7 in 8th ED but 6 in 6th ed) Tanks are to hold not hit like a bus. (needed to refresh memory due to tiredness of playing video games all night and now it's 9am whoops) Which is why Nakai should stay a Legendary Hero and not become a lord as he'd actually conflict with Kroq-Gar and you'd be paying for the same roll in the end since he's no longer a tank then.

    Tetto'eko: We already have two skinks and they already have mages from Kroak, Mazdamundi and Tehenhauin.
    Oxyotl: we've been over the subject of Oxyotl before on another thread where I recall supporting it since it was a ranged character something the Lizardmen don't have.

    But this thread has been derailed enough about Nakai since the thread wasn't even about Nakai.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    @Arthas_Menethil

    Thanks for talking man, sorry if it got a bit heated on either end. Alot is lost in translation when its via text. I know i can come across as aggressive but i wasn't mad and meant no offence :)
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 4,440
    Honestly, most of the lore of those LM "bruisers" doesn't indicate they buff anything, they just are tough as nails.

    TTK is a hero, and of course he's being lvl 2 goes a bit against is lore of astromancer of superb level (though you could say the astromancy itself isn't exactly the ability to cast spells in battle) The theme is quite cool but it's a bit of stretch.
    That say, even if indeed we have 1 saurus, 1 slaan and 2 skinks as LL right now, it's true that the large majority of our lords will be saurus, and Gor Rok would be just another one, very difficult to kill but infantry bound (unless he gets a horned one) He's most interesting feature would be a new start pos . Itza is weird because it's currently bound to a rather neutral and annoying LM faction, but that makes it the prize for all kind of other factions. And as said in ME, lustria is a bit crowded already.

    I guess TTK brings more interesting mechanics. This will be always forum fodder, since many more "known" characters are not that inspiring gamewise (hello malus ^^ )
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,111
    edited July 2019
    Nakai is a Green Knight character. He is not allowed to be the army general which effectively disqualifies him from being a lord in TW since they are automatically an army general. Lord Kroak has more claim to that title and he is a LH. That's that in my book.

    @Arthas_Menethil

    Ok so dense it is then.

    Grimgor is a black ork. skarsnik is a night gobblin. Alith is a shadow warrior/walker. Kroq gar is a saurus. Kolek is a dragon ogre shoggoth. teclis is a mage. Tehenauin is a skink. Tiktaq'to is a terradon rider. Lokhir is a corsair. Skrolk is a plauge monk. Settra is a chariot rider. Khatep is a Liche priest. Ungrim is a Slayer. isabella is a vampire lady. wurrzag is a savage orc. Wulfric is a marauder who rides a mammoth. Throgg is a troll. Durthu is a treeman. Kazrak is a Bestigor. Malagor is a brey shamen. morghur is a chaos spawn (very close to it). Archeon is a chaos warrior.

    that is most of the lords right there. now, you could argue that these characters are da bestest Black ork or Brey shamen but they fit the archetype none the less which is why they buff these units.

    That's a very limited view on these characters. If it was archetype then Vlad and Tyrion would buff Grave Guard and Phoenix Guard as they are the most powerful leaders and warriors among their kin. Tyrion is the greatest swordsman amongst High Elves.

    They buff far more than what they themselves are and even when buffing their kin it's usually because they hold a superior position amongst them. Grimgor primarily leads Black Orcs and depises Goblins, even having his special Black Orcs bodyguard. Skarsnik is a Goblin Warlord and buffs all of them. Alith is the Shadow King, the ruler of Shadow Warriors. Kroq Gar has lead the Last of the Defenders of Xhotl since its downfall during the great incursion, also his spawning coincided with the rearing of a brood of mighty Carnosaurs which is the reasoning for why he buffs dinos(he doesn't buff Saurus aside from upkeep reduction). Kholek is the first son of the father of Dragon Ogres. Teclis is the High Loremaster. Tehenhauin is a Red Crested Skink and has been their leader in combat for thousands of years. Tik'taq'to favors delaying tactics utilized by ranged aerial units. Lokhir is a leader of a renown Black Ark which, to be expected, has Black Ark Corsairs. Skrolk is the warlord of Clan Pestilens. Settra buffs Chariots AND Tomb Guard so is he a tomb guard? He buffs them because he's a renown chariot master and had the most powerful military among all their characters(and is the Khemrikara). Khatep is The Grand Hierophant of the Mortuary Cult and buffs ALL their units. Ungrim is the Slayer King, simple enough. Wurrzag is the foremost religious head of the Greenskins and the pre-eminent leader of the superstitious Savage Orcs. Wulfric is a chaos champion, actually. Someone like Beorg would be a marauder(and a werekin). The main reason why he buffs Marauders is because he is one of the preeminenet leaders/warriors of the Sarl, one of the tribes and Norscans usually flock to the strong. He is arguably the one who wouldn't entirely fit his designated role but then there was no other choice in 8th ed that would fit this position. Throgg is the Troll King and leader of the monstrous horde. Durthu is one of five, I think, most ancient Treemen in existence and their leader. BM are aligned similarly to what I said and Morghur buffs Chaos Spawns because he's the incarnation of disorder and pure Chaos and Chaos Spawn are effectively uncontrolled Chaos overtaking a person. He is NOT a Chaos Spawn, far from it. Archaon the EVERCHOSEN, the Lord of the End Times, is effectively the Chosen amongst all of the Chosen. Your logic fails on why he buffs Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights when taken at face value.

    The only one you would have an argument for is Isabella. And even here it's kinda not as she is the last true heir of Sylvania and a more royal approach would befit her(which vampire heroes do somewhat represent).

    Then you have Balthasar who buffs artillery because he has been working close with Imperial Engineering School, Noctilus who focuses on Necrofex Collosi(while not being a Necrarch) because he has countless ships in the Maelstrom to work with whatever way he wants, Volkmar buffing religious units since he's the Grand Theogonist, Louen focusing on the kingdom rather than Grail Knights despite being a Grail Knight(the only unit based stuff being he increases experience of Knights of the Realm and Questing Knights), Hellebron buffing Har Ganeth units, Fay Enchantress buffing Grail Knights and Grail Guardian since she IS the representative of the Lady, their deity and Grail Guardians are supposed to protect her, etc. There's some logic to why these characters buff units they buff, not archetypes. Oftentimes they themselves are leaders of those similar to them but sometimes they don't because that's not their character.

    So, for instance, if you have Nakai who doesn't interact with LM aside from sometimes appearing to aid them in battle, there's no reasoning for why he would buff Kroxigors. It is, in fact, a SKINK who should buff Kroxigors, which I think Tehenhauin already does? He doesn't.
    Post edited by Crossil on

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,111
    edited July 2019
    Just to reiterate an edit Kroq-Gar doesn't buff Saurus, only reduces upkeep.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,966
    uriak said:

    TTK is a hero, and of course he's being lvl 2 goes a bit against is lore of astromancer of superb level (though you could say the astromancy itself isn't exactly the ability to cast spells in battle) The theme is quite cool but it's a bit of stretch.

    Conversely, though, he has the Loremaster rule, which is typically associated with deep knowledge of the lore. He also has other special rules that represent s greater knowledge of astromancy than represented by the spells alone.

    He lacks raw power, but the combination of characteristics seems to indicate that while he's relatively weak power-wise (probably because he's a Skink, and Skinks have low magical potential), he's certainly quite skilled with the power he does have.

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2019
    @Crossil

    I think you misunderstood. i wasnt arguing that it was based on archetypes, i was saying that the Leaders, especially tanks and damage dealers, aside from tyrion and Vlad all buff the unit that is the same as them. i said in my post that you quoted that they may be the best of that type of unit but they are still a special version of that kind of unit.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited July 2019
    Nakai is allowed to be whatever we and CA want him to be. 'he is a lord but he cannot lead' is what it says in his rules which in total war is an Oxymoron.

    Total war Warhammer is a Video game. Warhammer fantasy battle is an archaic board game. One was released in the 80s before video games were even really a thing and the other was released in 2017 in a different medium (3 Years after GW killed WHFB because it wasn't turning enough of a profit)

    GW started selling the IP to everyone with a pulse in a desperate bid to get a new audience. they said to CA that they were so pleased with their performance that they could do (within reason) what they pleased, even create new characters.

    I never have, nor will i ever understand this blind mindless obedience to the rules of a game from a different medium that came out 30 odd years ago and has been stone dead for 5+ years. they can do what they want, which means following the money more often than not and the money says Nakai because hes one of the most popular potential lord picks.

    I also want to see Deathmaster Snetch as the head of clan eshen because he would make perfect sense and because they can. we can ask for it, they can deliver it, its as simple as that. your input here is reductive and worthless.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    Either way, we should all remember the important lesson here: that whether imaginary crocodile men are in or out is some goddamn serious business.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    @Crossil

    If you would rather stick to your stance than engage with me that's fine but understand that you're wrong and that I do not, nor will I ever respect it. (Your stance that is)
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,111
    edited July 2019

    1. like i said WH2 is a totally different game. in the lore nobody "buffs" anyone in the way that they do in WH2. this is a gameplay mechanic and i was basing it off of what the other lords are like and how they have been implemented.

    2. you want to talk about people who dont lead armies or dont show up in the right place? talk to CA. im sure you could give them a million "noo mommy they broke the lore!" quotes in all caps.

    Teclis settling in Lustria, sorry, say that again? Khalida is down there too? oh and they made sartosa zombies. hmm and Khatep seems to have teleported to Naggaroth somehow.....also hes allowed inside tomb king settlements, how curious. oh so Vlad and isabella are back huh, been a while since he was killed for good but ok cool. whats that? Norsca are their own faction?! and they made up units for them, Vampire coast tooo!!!!!!! in fact they made up a completely original lord for the Vampire coast?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    need i go on? because i will.

    3. Hes inteligent yes. the lizardmen in general have gotten dumber with every generation. Nakai is from the first spawning, hes albino and he stated as being guided by the jungle not his weapon. when they say guided they don't mean it controls him, they mean that the jungle literally morphs trees and vines out of the way to guide him to where he needs to be. in his lore it states that he hasn't pledged himself to a new master since his last one died. instead he roams the jungle in search of those in need. he can pledge himself to someone and he chose not to, meaning he has agency of his own and he actually has understanding of service and some sense of being etc. this should be a dead give away that he has intelligence certainly more than other Krox who don't even understand what a weapon is (they drop them after battles and need skink tamers).

    i have not ignored anything that has been written about him, i have actually factored it into how i would like to see him implemented in game.

    i didnt say i 'stand by the lore' im saying that i try to work within its confines as best we can hope to. i said that we cannot just throw everything out the window and that it should be respected and drawn from to a degree.

    but this is like any other adaption. you take the elements and transmute them as best you can from book to screen, from screen to game or from Book to game in this case. i have zero issue with CA's minor lore breaking because this is not the lore, it isnt the books, it isnt table top and it never will be. its an adaption. they have tried to stick to what they can but then theyve also added and changed things so they can sell a DLC with 4 lords or so Lustria isnt just all Lizards, or so we can get our Boi Vlad and other really cool characters who might not have made it if we stuck to the actual year that this is based.

    if you stuck to the lore anymore you would be arguing that we cant have wars between High elves or that we cant expand into lustria as the dwarfs.

    You see this is why I dislike to discuss stuff with people like you because you assume that I stand with what CA does and effectively ignore what is written while acting like you know the lore.

    1. Buffing is supposed to represent a characters or factions ability to utilize units in ways that surpass that of other factions. Nakai has no such skills and you ignoring this changes nothing. TT wasn't a perfect representation of lore either, I'll admit but not like people didn't want that if it was possible.

    2. What makes you think I haven't argued against some of these things? First of all, all characters that lead armies in these games lead armies in the lore. Second of all Teclis is well known for his travels which go on due to necessity. Has he not gone to Kislev when Asavar Kul invaded while great calamity was besieging the world and Ulthuan? Same thing here. CA created a scenario that has Teclis acting in character. Khalida is probably one case where they couldn't do much in accordance with her city which forced them to put her somewhere else. I have complained against Sartosa being undead and still consider it a bad choice. Khatep is in exile, where would he start? In Nehekhara? He isn't allowed there. By the time he gets back I think Settra might as well be dead or willing to work with him after he's so close to finishing the ritual. Vlad and Isabella are fully capable of returning from death. That being said I would've preferred Neferata but what can you do? Norsca were their own faction for a long while now. Kurgan, Hung and Norsca are not WoC, they are still ethnic groups that live in the north. Just because GW hasn't given them their own lists doesn't change that fact. In fact all of their stuff already existed in the game. Don't believe me? Look it up. Vampire Coasts units all exist in the setting. The only ones I'm not entirely sure about are Depth Guard who allegedly come from the Dreadfleet where they are based on that description of Noctilus's crew and/or bodyguards(and Dreadfleet was used as the second source for Vampire Coast). There's nothing preventing CA from creating their characters. The one problem that can happen is that they don't fit. I have argued that Cylostra is an underdeveloped character but new characters aren't necessarily against the lore. Better that more be created than what alread is to be destroyed.

    In fact all of CA's "lore breaks" are based on "what is written can't be purely translated into TW so we have to make concessions" while yours is "this character isn't what I want him to be but I'm gonna just rewrite that so I can argue that he is more than everyone else".

    3. You see, here you go into hyperbole which is based on nothing. The main problem is that the sources are obscure and it would be hard for me to get it all out on the field but there are several things your description is flatly wrong about and redefined several things that are stated about him. First, it never says anywhere that he is intelligent and entire "first spawning" thing doesn't prove that he's beyond what is the defining feature of Kroxigors. In fact Skinks don't refer to him as an individual but as a creature and a force of nature:



    Now tell me why would anyone refer to an individual as a creature? Because he is a beast. The entire bit about him being intelligent doesn't arise from his lore but from your selective reading of certain bits and ignoring of others. Second, his mace IS his guiding force. It is specifically noted to be possesed or blessed by one of the Lizardmen gods to be the guide on his journeys. Even if it was the jungle that brings him elsewhere the point still stands. Never is it stated that he himself decided to not pledge allegiance to anyone, it is his insticnt that guides him away from everyone. There's no indication of the opposite.


    If you want to argue bring your sources. This is currently what I work with and what demonstrates what he is. The stuff that isn't written doesn't exist unless you can justifiably replicate it from lore and even that is shaky grounds that can be abandoned if a new source emerges. So go on and disprove me.

    @Crossil

    If you would rather stick to your stance than engage with me that's fine but understand that you're wrong and that I do not, nor will I ever respect it. (Your stance that is)

    That's fine. I know you are disrespectful and only care about getting your way by rewriting and redefining so that your pet project has more ground to stand on but you lack anything that outright states that Nakai is anywhere near intelligent enough to orchestrate an entire faction or lead armies when he only appears to very specific battles out of the blue. Never spoke to anyone, never did anything outside of wandering and fighting. Mazdamundi giving him a command is equivalent to that Slann telepathically commanding a Thunder Lizard to not destroy a Temple City.

    What isn't written, and is treated as not correct, isn't true.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    edited August 2019

    Quote removed

    I'll be fine with it either way. I have a soft spot for Nakai but Gor-Rok is fine. Like I said earlier, it'd be great if they came together: summoning Nakai would be a nice Gor-Rok exclusive campaign mechanic for a character who's otherwise lacking in obvious ones. Still if we get one or the other it won't bother me.

    My feeling is CA will pick based more on what will make for (in their mind) fun gameplay and will find loreful (or semi-loreful) justifications after the fact. I'm fine with that, my only overall preference at the moment is "not another skink" but even then some of the other Skink characters are pretty cool. I'd be slightly disappointed if Tetto'eko was who they went with but I'd get over it in short order.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,111
    edited July 2019

    Crossil said:

    Either way, we should all remember the important lesson here: that whether imaginary crocodile men are in or out is some goddamn serious business.

    I mean, 5th or 6th edition had a Saurus with a crocodile face called Kroq.... I would expect him sooner than Nakai so I'm pretty sure I'm not exclusionary against crocodile-looking individuals.
    I'll be fine with it either way. I have a soft spot for Nakai but Gor-Rok is fine. Like I said earlier, it'd be great if they came together: summoning Nakai would be a nice Gor-Rok exclusive campaign mechanic for a character who's otherwise lacking in obvious ones. Still if we get one or the other it won't bother me.

    My feeling is CA will pick based more on what will make for (in their mind) fun gameplay and will find loreful (or semi-loreful) justifications after the fact. I'm fine with that, my only overall preference at the moment is "not another skink" but even then some of the other Skink characters are pretty cool. I'd be slightly disappointed if Tetto'eko was who they went with but I'd get over it in short order.
    Yeah, the thing is that Tetto'eko seems character wise to be something that CA would go after but Gor Rok seems more... appropriate, in a way? Itza being the First City and him being a second Saurus to implement.

    I mean... Nakai isn't necessarily out in my book, Having him as a Legendary Hero fits perfectly but the problem with him being LL is that I expect more from legendary lords character wise. This is one reason why people had problems with Ghorst, Alberic and Cylostra. Alberic I think wasn't really too bad because his faction provided stuff to work with and he's been made less generic recently but Ghorst plays second fiddle to Mannfred and Cylostra, unfortunately, being introduced in a Total War game didn't get much character to work with.

    You could say that Gor Rok isn't that impressive but Itza is definitely relevant for the setting at large and having him to represent it would be nice. Meanwhile Konquata has been effectively retconned.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Either way, we should all remember the important lesson here: that whether imaginary crocodile men are in or out is some goddamn serious business.

    I mean, 5th or 6th edition had a Saurus with a crocodile face called Kroq.... I would expect him sooner than Nakai so I'm pretty sure I'm not exclusionary against crocodile-looking individuals.
    I'll be fine with it either way. I have a soft spot for Nakai but Gor-Rok is fine. Like I said earlier, it'd be great if they came together: summoning Nakai would be a nice Gor-Rok exclusive campaign mechanic for a character who's otherwise lacking in obvious ones. Still if we get one or the other it won't bother me.

    My feeling is CA will pick based more on what will make for (in their mind) fun gameplay and will find loreful (or semi-loreful) justifications after the fact. I'm fine with that, my only overall preference at the moment is "not another skink" but even then some of the other Skink characters are pretty cool. I'd be slightly disappointed if Tetto'eko was who they went with but I'd get over it in short order.
    Yeah, the thing is that Tetto'eko seems character wise to be something that CA would go after but Gor Rok seems more... appropriate, in a way? Itza being the First City and him being a second Saurus to implement.

    I mean... Nakai isn't necessarily out in my book, Having him as a Legendary Hero fits perfectly but the problem with him being LL is that I expect more from legendary lords character wise. This is one reason why people had problems with Ghorst, Alberic and Cylostra. Alberic I think wasn't really too bad because his faction provided stuff to work with and he's been made less generic recently but Ghorst plays second fiddle to Mannfred and Cylostra, unfortunately, being introduced in a Total War game didn't get much character to work with.

    You could say that Gor Rok isn't that impressive but Itza is definitely relevant for the setting at large and having him to represent it would be nice. Meanwhile Konquata has been effectively retconned.
    Ghost works better in my mind now that the Vampire Counts faction is just him and Mannfred. He fits the Renfield role better than Kemmler.

    As for Nakai I can see where you're coming from but I could also see CA trying to come up with stuff to work around it. Play up the sentience of his sword so it's more of the character than he is, or play up his connection to the skinks more and have a couple of arguing skink chiefs riding on his shoulder and pointing him in the right direction.

    This is the sort of thing I mean by CA coming up with a "semi-loreful" justification for their decision. Their actual decision would probably be less about Nakai's personality and more about "hey, it'd be fun to give the Lizardmen a Throgg sized LL who buffs Kroxigors" or something to that effect.

    Ghost, Alberic, and Cylostra don't bother me too much personally, so if CA plugs in Nakai I'll be okay with it. But like I said, I think he and Gor-Rok would be better as a package deal, each complementing the others' weaknesses.
  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Registered Users Posts: 4,729
    I think that's the key. While it is possible Nakai has some greater intelligence than a regular kroxigor as he is from the first spawning, I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest that he'd be intelligent. Most assume that his sword, which already guides him from battle to battle, would be the one guiding him. But it could make for some potentially interesting mechanics as he would likely lack all subtlety making diplomacy harder or removing the option for ambushes in his own army. I also, personally, love the idea of a character on the diplomacy screen that just grunts. It'd be the only character they wouldn't have to re-record dialogue for when new races come out as right now, way too many of the characters and races don't recognize each other.
    SiWI: "no they just hate you and I don't blame them."
  • forthekey67forthekey67 Registered Users Posts: 146
    In many ways Tetto'eko is the better suited for DLC but I think CA will want to bring in another saurus instead (especially since we first heard about the second round of lord packs in response to the "no Gor Rok" backlash).
    The ideas in the OP could definitely form the basis of his campaign mechanics.

    One obvious way to spruce up Gor-Rok in battle that I haven't seen mentioned is to give him a Troglodon mount. It would stand out from Kroq-Gar and avoids the useless foot lord problem.
  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Registered Users Posts: 4,729

    In many ways Tetto'eko is the better suited for DLC but I think CA will want to bring in another saurus instead (especially since we first heard about the second round of lord packs in response to the "no Gor Rok" backlash).
    The ideas in the OP could definitely form the basis of his campaign mechanics.

    One obvious way to spruce up Gor-Rok in battle that I haven't seen mentioned is to give him a Troglodon mount. It would stand out from Kroq-Gar and avoids the useless foot lord problem.

    That would only work if they made Gor-Rok standard infantry size as most lore suggests he's much larger than that. Having him on a Troglodon, a smaller carnosaur, might look weird if they do go with him being monstrous sized.
    SiWI: "no they just hate you and I don't blame them."
  • IokkoIokko Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 967

    In many ways Tetto'eko is the better suited for DLC but I think CA will want to bring in another saurus instead (especially since we first heard about the second round of lord packs in response to the "no Gor Rok" backlash).
    The ideas in the OP could definitely form the basis of his campaign mechanics.

    One obvious way to spruce up Gor-Rok in battle that I haven't seen mentioned is to give him a Troglodon mount. It would stand out from Kroq-Gar and avoids the useless foot lord problem.

    I see your point but there are ways to make foot lords good, and i don't mean just making them tanky (which gor rok should definitely be though)

    Think about morghur, noctilus, aranessa, skrolk, ikit and so on, characters with a lot of utility, summons, buffing or hexing abilities, AoE damage or effects, direct damage or bombardments, etc.

    So, just as an example, what if to go along with the tank theme, gor rok's shield gave AoE armour and charge defense vs all? Or maybe melee defense instead of armor, though that would be much stronger.

    Gor rok is also stubborn, so maybe he can considerably increase leadership around him, focusing even more on that tough, grindy melee playstyle.

    Just a few thoughts here, I'm sure we can come up with similar ideas for Tetto Eko or nakai or anyone else really.
    Stating opinions as if they're facts in your signature and adding "Change my mind" doesn't make them facts, change my mind.
Sign In or Register to comment.