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Next four races for tw3

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  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,489
    @forthekey67 what races are going to fill the map if we get chaos only? Just placeholders living in the darklands and mountains of mourne which will be the main part of the new map? Simply won’t happen.

    Most realistic scenario:

    Kislev
    DoC (Slaanesh & Nurgle)
    Ogres
    Chaos Dwarfs

    Preorder: Araby

    DLC race: DoW (likely), Hobgoblins (unlikely), Kurgans (unlikely), Cathay (dream)

    LPs:
    Chaos Dwarfs vs Ogres
    Khorne vs Tzeentch

    FLC Faction: Nagash (mix of TK and VC)
  • steph74steph74 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,359

    Khorne
    Slaanesh
    Nurgle
    Tzeentch

    DLC1: Ogre Kingdoms
    DLC2: Chaos Dwarfs

    Fairly certain this is what it will end up being, with maybe Kislev as the pre-order bonus or a third campaign pack. Cathay has no chance.

    Are you confident making a game that would not sell to the X% (where I guess X is close to 75%) of players who dislike Chaos is the smartest idea CA could have?
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 17,744

    Khorne
    Slaanesh
    Nurgle
    Tzeentch

    DLC1: Ogre Kingdoms
    DLC2: Chaos Dwarfs

    Fairly certain this is what it will end up being, with maybe Kislev as the pre-order bonus or a third campaign pack. Cathay has no chance.

    Why?

    The chance that CA relies on the niche Evil, Chaos, Monogod armies to carry the weight of a full priced game is just about nil. It's much more likely we'll see what we've seen in game 1, and game 2. That is variety in races with broad appeal. Monogods have neither of those, they're all variations of the same thing, and they all appeal to the same niche.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • LolTHELolLolTHELol Registered Users Posts: 793

    Khorne
    Slaanesh
    Nurgle
    Tzeentch

    DLC1: Ogre Kingdoms
    DLC2: Chaos Dwarfs

    Fairly certain this is what it will end up being, with maybe Kislev as the pre-order bonus or a third campaign pack. Cathay has no chance.

    I would definitely not purchase a game with just 4 Chaos factions. Even now people are upset due to the fact that we got 2 undead race DLCs in a row. Do you really think that people would be happy about a game with just 4 Chaos factions with different colours?

    3rd game needs its good factions and diversity. It is true both Chaos warriors and Beastmen has to get updated in game 3 but just making a game with Chaos would be a bad business decision.
  • GodWillTellGodWillTell Registered Users Posts: 697

    Crossil said:


    Man, I love the shy guy/bowling ball helmets for Nurgle warriors. That is more intimidating than ornate gold mask with glowing eyes in my opinion.

    Really can't decide if Nurgle or Tzeentch is more exciting.
    Slaanesh is actually pretty cool...but in the end all the 4 Gods are cool!

    Chaosbane has also 4 Chaos Spawn variants:









    And a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch:






    #FORGHORGON
  • GodWillTellGodWillTell Registered Users Posts: 697

    Pre-Order:

    • Araby

    • Dogs of War

    • 1 of the 4 Chaos Gods


    4-5 Core Races:

    • Slaanesh

    • Kislev

    • Ogres

    • Chaos Dwarfs

    • Nagash (like Bretonnia in WH1)

    • if the pre-order is not one of the four Chaos Gods then Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentch (one of them) > Ogres/Chaos Dwarfs/Kislev (one of them)

    DLC:

    • either Nurgle or Tzeentch

    • either Dogs of War or Kislev

    • either Ogres or Chaos Dwarfs

    • Cathay or Araby

    FLC:

    • Complete Legion of Nagash


    #FORGHORGON
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,489
    A general question, could the Legion of Nagash really be a unique undead race like Vampirates or Tomb Kings? I thought they are just a mix of TK and VC units
  • FungusHoundFungusHound Registered Users Posts: 2,548
    ArneSo said:

    A general question, could the Legion of Nagash really be a unique undead race like Vampirates or Tomb Kings? I thought they are just a mix of TK and VC units

    I mean if you took all the skeletons and ethereal units, changed up their stats and recolored/add more glowy bits and mist to make them look thematically similar, added the 3 unique units from the End Times, a handful of new units on the same level as Depth Guard, plus Lore of Nagash... thats about Norsca level I think.
  • LolTHELolLolTHELol Registered Users Posts: 793
    ArneSo said:

    A general question, could the Legion of Nagash really be a unique undead race like Vampirates or Tomb Kings? I thought they are just a mix of TK and VC units

    I believe best way to implement Nagash and his legions would be a FLC. Since not much vampire stuff left to add to the game.

    How CA implemented Bretonnia is a good example. In the start of the game he could be a new end game crisis that is not playable but during the game 3 life cycle his faction could be expanded and made playable. I sincerely hope he comes and that he comes with Neferata. Really want proper fight with her and Khalida.
  • forthekey67forthekey67 Registered Users Posts: 52
    LolTHELol said:

    Khorne
    Slaanesh
    Nurgle
    Tzeentch

    DLC1: Ogre Kingdoms
    DLC2: Chaos Dwarfs

    Fairly certain this is what it will end up being, with maybe Kislev as the pre-order bonus or a third campaign pack. Cathay has no chance.

    I would definitely not purchase a game with just 4 Chaos factions. Even now people are upset due to the fact that we got 2 undead race DLCs in a row. Do you really think that people would be happy about a game with just 4 Chaos factions with different colours?

    3rd game needs its good factions and diversity. It is true both Chaos warriors and Beastmen has to get updated in game 3 but just making a game with Chaos would be a bad business decision.
    With some creativity there's no reason the four chaos factions can't play as distinctly as the three elf or undead factions
    we already have. In fact visually they should be more diverse (which is one of the reasons I'm convinced monogods will happen, because from a budget perspective it's hard to imagine them being done otherwise).

    Obviously all chaos won't be for everyone regardless but I will be surprised if it's anything else.
    CA will want to have strong factions to headline the DLC so it makes sense to keep Ogres and Chaos Dwarfs in reserve.
  • Cortes31Cortes31 Registered Users Posts: 787
    Only chaos as core is simply not worth full price.

    "In brightest day, in blackest night,
    No faction shall escape my sight.
    Let those who think deniers are right
    Beware my power--Faction Lantern's light!"

    Everythime a faction/race is excluded from the trilogy, these games become smaller. RIP Araby and others.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 3,330

    LolTHELol said:

    Khorne
    Slaanesh
    Nurgle
    Tzeentch

    DLC1: Ogre Kingdoms
    DLC2: Chaos Dwarfs

    Fairly certain this is what it will end up being, with maybe Kislev as the pre-order bonus or a third campaign pack. Cathay has no chance.

    I would definitely not purchase a game with just 4 Chaos factions. Even now people are upset due to the fact that we got 2 undead race DLCs in a row. Do you really think that people would be happy about a game with just 4 Chaos factions with different colours?

    3rd game needs its good factions and diversity. It is true both Chaos warriors and Beastmen has to get updated in game 3 but just making a game with Chaos would be a bad business decision.
    With some creativity there's no reason the four chaos factions can't play as distinctly as the three elf or undead factions
    we already have. In fact visually they should be more diverse (which is one of the reasons I'm convinced monogods will happen, because from a budget perspective it's hard to imagine them being done otherwise).

    Obviously all chaos won't be for everyone regardless but I will be surprised if it's anything else.
    CA will want to have strong factions to headline the DLC so it makes sense to keep Ogres and Chaos Dwarfs in reserve.
    They could do 4 distinct chaos factions but it's definitely not going to be the 4 base factions if it ever happens.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,489
    The 3 elve and undead factions might play different but can you imagine a game only with them? Would a game with only Vampirates, TK, VC and Nagash be a good idea? No of course not! I love Vampirates, I love Tomb Kings and I love VC but I would never buy a game with only those factions.

    So we will never get a game with only 4 chaos factions. It is unrealistic in the same way a game with Kislev, Cathay, Araby and DoW is unrealistic. Of course all these races would play totally different but they are still all human. We will never get a warhammer game with only 4 different human races, 4 undead or 3 elve races. This would be horrible for a 60€ game.

    Every god might be different and unique but not enough to make a game only with them.

    Honest question to the Monogods fans. Would Nurgle and Slaanesh offer the same diversity LM and Skaven offered? I really don’t think so.

    The different chaos gods would fit perfectly as LPs. 2 LL for Deamons would represent 2 gods as core factions, the other 2 would come as LP.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,035
    My analysis is:

    Demons of Chaos
    Chaos Dwarfs
    Ogre Kingdoms
    Human Kingdom (Kislev, DoW, or Cathay)

    Cathay is a bit of an "original release or bust" case. A lot of the arguments for Cathay are predicated on it being present in the map - if it's just a few outposts on the edges, those arguments simply don't apply. People commonly state geographical factors as a reason why it "can't" be in, but I think those are overstated - there isn't really that much distance between Cathay's western borders and the Ogre Kingdoms, and it wouldn't be the first time in the TWW series that distances are warped and compressed.

    Either way, I do consider its chances to be relatively low (unless CA and GW do decide it's worth chasing the Chinese market that way). It largely depends on what map CA intends to use for the non-combined TWW3 map: if that map includes the Old World, the chances of Cathay go way down, and the chances of Kislev and DoW go way up.

    LolTHELol said:

    Khorne
    Slaanesh
    Nurgle
    Tzeentch

    DLC1: Ogre Kingdoms
    DLC2: Chaos Dwarfs

    Fairly certain this is what it will end up being, with maybe Kislev as the pre-order bonus or a third campaign pack. Cathay has no chance.

    I would definitely not purchase a game with just 4 Chaos factions. Even now people are upset due to the fact that we got 2 undead race DLCs in a row. Do you really think that people would be happy about a game with just 4 Chaos factions with different colours?

    3rd game needs its good factions and diversity. It is true both Chaos warriors and Beastmen has to get updated in game 3 but just making a game with Chaos would be a bad business decision.
    With some creativity there's no reason the four chaos factions can't play as distinctly as the three elf or undead factions
    we already have. In fact visually they should be more diverse (which is one of the reasons I'm convinced monogods will happen, because from a budget perspective it's hard to imagine them being done otherwise).
    While such distinctions are certainly possible (I've discussed how to bring them about myself), I can see three counterarguments to them being the core lineup:

    1) Achieving those distinctions means that none of the races can be drawn from existing army lists, or at least not from official army book lists.

    2) Even if the distinctions are achieved, neither TWW1 nor TWW2 launched with all four factions carrying that level of similarity. TWW2 only has two elf factions, while the other two are very un-Elf-like. A full-price release where all four levels only have the degree of distinction that elves or undead races have is one that offers a lot less diversity than the alternative.

    3) Lots and lots of placeholders. TWW1 and TWW2 had and still has some placeholders, but generally in less important places of the map (especially in the Vortex campaign - the Araby/Nehekhara region isn't really of much interest to the core TWW2 races). Leaving the Chaos Dwarfs out in particular means that you've got a placeholder in what is probably the center of the map.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 3,460
    I'm betting we get two human kingdoms (DoW and Kislev are most likely, but Cathay is a possibility) versus the Daemons and Chaos Dwarfs, with Ogres as the first DLC campaign pack.
  • forthekey67forthekey67 Registered Users Posts: 52
    The elf factions are just an example, if CA are feeling inventive enough they could push the chaos factions to very different places. I do get the arguments though - in the end there will be similarities that don't exist between game 1 factions or elfs vs Lizards and Skaven. I just don't see a more likely alternative.

    We could switch out 2 of the chaos gods for OK and CD to vary the line-up a bit. I'm not convinced that would improve the base game for people who dislike the idea of all chaos. There would still be the problem of no "good" factions and now the DLC options have been undermined. Presuming monogods happen, it will probably be all at once.

    If we leave aside budget concerns to assume it isn't monogods then that introduces more problems.
    At least one of the minor factions needs to be elevated (more if they still want to sell campaign pack DLC).
    Kislev as the default protagonist of the final game? I can't see it. Dogs of War which has been passed over twice as the headline DLC content? Unlikely. Cathay/Ind/Kuresh/Fishmen as DLC? Nope.
    Draxynnic said:


    3) Lots and lots of placeholders. TWW1 and TWW2 had and still has some placeholders, but generally in less important places of the map (especially in the Vortex campaign - the Araby/Nehekhara region isn't really of much interest to the core TWW2 races). Leaving the Chaos Dwarfs out in particular means that you've got a placeholder in what is probably the center of the map.

    Do the Chaos Dwarfs have a presence in the darklands outside of their strongholds? There should be enough factions to flesh out the area until DLC arrives but it's a fair point.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 4,489
    The Chaos Dwarf presence in the dark lands would be the same like the DE presence in Naggaroth.

    The big strongholds will form the capital cities next to smaller places and outpost for minor settlements. Of course there will be some Norscan, Skaven and Orc placeholders but the main part of the land needs to be populated by new races. Old races are just there to add some flavour. CA can’t justify a full place if the map is populated with races we already know.

    The Northern part of the Southlands worked fine with placeholders because the rest was already filled with 90% new races. In lustria we had some Dwarfs, Orcs and the Empire but the majority was all new races.

    The main argument that speaks against Monogods is that their playstyle and campaign focus is to similar.

    Chaos factions don’t trade, don’t do diplomacy, don’t build up a strong economy. All these things are a major part of total war games next to battles.

    With Monogods trade, empire building and diplomacy would be completely obsolete.
  • LudboneLudbone Registered Users Posts: 1,158


    Pre-Order:

    • Araby

    • Dogs of War

    • 1 of the 4 Chaos Gods


    4-5 Core Races:

    • Slaanesh

    • Kislev

    • Ogres

    • Chaos Dwarfs

    • Nagash (like Bretonnia in WH1)

    • if the pre-order is not one of the four Chaos Gods then Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentch (one of them) > Ogres/Chaos Dwarfs/Kislev (one of them)

    DLC:

    • either Nurgle or Tzeentch

    • either Dogs of War or Kislev

    • either Ogres or Chaos Dwarfs

    • Cathay or Araby

    FLC:

    • Complete Legion of Nagash

    Most likely this.
    Beastmen: where is the love?


  • forthekey67forthekey67 Registered Users Posts: 52
    ArneSo said:

    The Chaos Dwarf presence in the dark lands would be the same like the DE presence in Naggaroth.

    The big strongholds will form the capital cities next to smaller places and outpost for minor settlements. Of course there will be some Norscan, Skaven and Orc placeholders but the main part of the land needs to be populated by new races. Old races are just there to add some flavour. CA can’t justify a full place if the map is populated with races we already know.

    The Northern part of the Southlands worked fine with placeholders because the rest was already filled with 90% new races. In lustria we had some Dwarfs, Orcs and the Empire but the majority was all new races.

    I think the DE dominance was overdone, so hopefully the dark lands don't become quite as monotonous.

    It wouldn't be all placeholders though, in the monogod world there are still four new factions to spread across the map.
    ArneSo said:


    The main argument that speaks against Monogods is that their playstyle and campaign focus is to similar.

    Chaos factions don’t trade, don’t do diplomacy, don’t build up a strong economy. All these things are a major part of total war games next to battles.

    With Monogods trade, empire building and diplomacy would be completely obsolete.

    That doesn't have to be the case. The idea would be that the faction was built upon mortal worshippers of the various gods, operating like a cult. The armies would still be full of demons and such, but the "population" would function like other factions: building infrastructure, growing an economy (based on dark magic or something like that), engaging in diplomacy. There would have to be some sort of demonic influence on all of this of course - but the basic playstyle should be there. From there the various gods can be differentiated further in mechanics. The alternative would be to use Warriors of Chaos as a template and as you point out that would never work for a monogod game.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 10,877

    If CA wanted to make a lot of money on DLC wouldn't it make sense to have the Ogre's or Chaos Dwarfs as a DLC?

    It would make sense storyline-wise, the Ogres and Chaos Dwarfs are not fighting against Chaos.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 5,987
    Tayvar said:

    If CA wanted to make a lot of money on DLC wouldn't it make sense to have the Ogre's or Chaos Dwarfs as a DLC?

    It would make sense storyline-wise, the Ogres and Chaos Dwarfs are not fighting against Chaos.
    I would actually put Ogres and Kislev early into the game to have something to smash for Chaos if Monos appeared. Chaos Dwarves ultimately have a kinda different story if Hashut stakes his claim as a Chaos god.

    Unless Ogres get shifted for Nagash shenanigans which might make sense but I don't know. Ogres would be the last race with an actual armybook and I feel like throwing Vanilla a bone every once on a while.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 10,877
    Crossil said:

    Tayvar said:

    If CA wanted to make a lot of money on DLC wouldn't it make sense to have the Ogre's or Chaos Dwarfs as a DLC?

    It would make sense storyline-wise, the Ogres and Chaos Dwarfs are not fighting against Chaos.
    I would actually put Ogres and Kislev early into the game to have something to smash for Chaos if Monos appeared. Chaos Dwarves ultimately have a kinda different story if Hashut stakes his claim as a Chaos god.

    Unless Ogres get shifted for Nagash shenanigans which might make sense but I don't know. Ogres would be the last race with an actual armybook and I feel like throwing Vanilla a bone every once on a while.
    Why would the Chaos Gods go to smash the Ogres, the Chaos Gods would more likely to recruit those brutes, and Hashut is a small-time player in comparison to the Big Four, the Chaos Gods fight mostly among themselves, and sometimes they have some fun by attacking the civilized world.

    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Ogres

    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/The_Great_Game
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 17,744
    Tayvar said:

    If CA wanted to make a lot of money on DLC wouldn't it make sense to have the Ogre's or Chaos Dwarfs as a DLC?

    It would make sense storyline-wise, the Ogres and Chaos Dwarfs are not fighting against Chaos.
    Storyline wise evil vs evil vs evil vs evil is just about as bad as it gets. It's terrible. If story is what they want then the traditional good vs evil dynamic is the way to go.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,014
    Yeah.. I don't buy this no 'good guy' game. I think it'll be balanced like the last 2.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 3,565
    edited August 2019
    I have to admit that while I think Daemons of Chaos are 100% Core in TWWH3, the possibility of DoW, Kislev Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms as core has a certain appeal.

    DoW vs. Ogres in the southern part of the map have a natural conflict over the trade routes to the far east while Kislev's wheat lands border the Chaos Dwarfs.

    Plus then you have

    -Good-
    DoW
    Kislev

    -Bad-
    Ogres
    Chaos Dwarfs
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • IokkoIokko Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 422
    It's not just the people who want to play as the good guys, who are turned off by a chaos only game, it's also those who like to play as both good and evil, and those who'd rather be neutral.

    I'd much rather play a game that offers a variety of perspectives, where i can choose whether to save the world or doom it, or mind my own business while it crumbles around me.

    Besides, a total war game where none of the playable factions can own and manage settlements, trade, or do meaningful diplomacy doesn't sound as fun.
    Stating opinions as if they're facts in your signature and adding "Change my mind" doesn't make them facts, change my mind.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 3,617
    OdTengri said:

    I have to admit that while I think Daemons of Chaos are 100% Core in TWWH3, the possibility of DoW, Kislev Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms as core has a certain appeal.

    DoW vs. Ogres in the southern part of the map have a natural conflict over the trade routes to the far east while Kislev's wheat lands border the Chaos Dwarfs.

    Plus then you have

    -Good-
    DoW
    Kislev

    -Bad-
    Ogres
    Chaos Dwarfs

    I think Daemons vs Kislev and DoW vs OKs would be a more natural fit for that idea as Kislev is more known for fighting against WoC and Daemon incursions to my knowledge.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 3,565
    Eah... Regardles.

    The Idea of Starting with DoW and Kislev both is really the Idea. Its oddly compelling.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 5,987
    OdTengri said:

    I have to admit that while I think Daemons of Chaos are 100% Core in TWWH3, the possibility of DoW, Kislev Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms as core has a certain appeal.

    DoW vs. Ogres in the southern part of the map have a natural conflict over the trade routes to the far east while Kislev's wheat lands border the Chaos Dwarfs.

    Plus then you have

    -Good-
    DoW
    Kislev

    -Bad-
    Ogres
    Chaos Dwarfs

    DoW and Ogres are both neutral. Besides, the evil faction to stay is Daemons, not CD. Daemons then are the destroyers to Kislev's defender of the world.

    But the entire point seems moot as all four need to be connected so such side lines don't really seem that relevant.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 3,565
    DoW are not neutral... They may be Mercs but they would never serve Greenskins nor Chaos. They are every bit as much the defenders of humanity as any other human faction. The only real difference is that they hail from a land that is so relatively safe from marauding forces that they have devolved to endless infighting. Very similar to the Empire itself during the time of 3 Emperors or any other time that Chaos's influence in the world is waning.

    Ogres are Neutral, but the Ogre Kingdoms are very similar to Orcs, but that really doesn't matter they are a good Foil to the DoW. They are both involved in Land Trade across the Dark Lands and frequently have competing goals.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

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