Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

What would be realistic Dwarfs?? Fantasy Dwarfs Badly designed.

Unknown6203Unknown6203 Posts: 516Registered Users
edited August 13 in General Discussion
I was thinking to myself that Warhammer Dwarfs and most Fantasy Dwarfs are badly designed.... Dwarfs are a underground dwelling race that live mostly in underground mountains, Tolkien Dwarfs were about 4'6 but more muscle weight than humans very strong they are realistic while Warhammer Dwarfs seem even shorter like 3'6...

I do martial arts, height its not an advantage the advantage is Weight and in a shooting match being tall means you are a bigger target and easier to shoot. as a BJJ practitioner i can roll whit people almost feet taller similar a few pounds heavier than me and win easily, but weight.... my my how hard is it so sweep a guy 30 pounds heavier than me from mount... hence do Dwarfs are lighter than humans? because by weigh in a world were there melee fighting they surely would get smashed.

Also their empathizes on Axes.... axes are weapons historically used on open fields were you have room to swing especially two handed axes, now Dwarf fighting in tunnels against numerous enemies the Axe would be useless since the people on the back rank cannot help the one on the front and in close quarter you can't stab whit the Axe.

Dwarfs would be armed whit medium spears(a feet taller than them)/shield combo along whit a short stabbing sword like the Romans so that in a tunnel they would make a spear wall and when all else fails use short swords to its maximum effect. also the most absurd at all is how short the legs are, have you guys seen a real Dwarfs running? they can barely run. they are disproportionate if you look at your arms legs are supposed to be longer than the whole length of the arm. the dwarfs here the legs are the same length as the arms......

Cavalry, in the real world even Hill people had cavalry, The Hittites had Chariots, The Samnite had Light cavalry... Dwarf makes no sense to no have at least some kind of cavalry.... that why i liked the Ram Cavalry of the film the Hobbit.

The Beards... some warriors like the Sikh Warriors of India left their beards cover the whole of the neck because it protected their neck from cuts but dint leave them too long because they could be grabbed it, makes sense. but on Dwarfs a race that always near fire... those beards are like matchsticks... also they are to damn long.

Don't get me started on the Slayers....... HATE THEM.

Some thing make sense like, gunpowder riffles in the funnel of the tunnel? that perfect!, Since those things were super inaccurate on real life and open fields, and heavy infantry due to tunnel warfare, flametrowher make sense but the most iconic thing the Axe, height, and the exagerated beard make no sense.

Not blaming CA they just copy pasted the GW Dwarfs, but my they are a race so badly designed. other fantasy worlds the Dwarfs are about shoulder length of a human but about the same weight in muscle which makes a lot of sense.

Anyway just rambling since i got nothing to wait for in Warhammer we still got a month to go for an announcement.....
«1

Comments

  • UagrimUagrim Posts: 382Registered Users

    I was thinking to myself that Warhammer Dwarfs and most Fantasy Dwarfs are badly designed.... Dwarfs are a underground dwelling race that live mostly in underground mountains, Tolkien Dwarfs were about 4'6 but more muscle weight than humans very strong they are realistic while Warhammer Dwarfs seem even shorter like 3'6...

    I do martial arts, height its not an advantage the advantage is Weight and in a shooting match being tall means you are a bigger target and easier to shoot. as a BJJ practitioner i can roll whit people almost feet taller similar a few pounds heavier than me and win easily, but weight.... my my how hard is it so sweep a guy 30 pounds heavier than me from mount... hence do Dwarfs are lighter than humans? because by weigh in a world were there melee fighting they surely would get smashed.

    Also their empathizes on Axes.... axes are weapons historically used on open fields were you have room to swing especially two handed axes, now Dwarf fighting in tunnels against numerous enemies the Axe would be useless since the people on the back rank cannot help the one on the front and in close quarter you can't stab whit the Axe.

    Dwarfs would be armed whit medium spears(a feet taller than them)/shield combo along whit a short stabbing sword like the Romans so that in a tunnel they would make a spear wall and when all else fails use short swords to its maximum effect. also the most absurd at all is how short the legs are, have you guys seen a real Dwarfs running? they can barely run. they are disproportionate if you look at your arms legs are supposed to be longer than the whole length of the arm. the dwarfs here the legs are the same length as the arms......

    Cavalry, in the real world even Hill people had cavalry, The Hittites had Chariots, The Samnite had Light cavalry... Dwarf makes no sense to no have at least some kind of cavalry.... that why i liked the Ram Cavalry of the film the Hobbit.

    The Beards... some warriors like the Sikh Warriors of India left their beards cover the whole of the neck because it protected their neck from cuts but dint leave them too long because they could be grabbed it, makes sense. but on Dwarfs a race that always near fire... those beards are like matchsticks... also they are to damn long.

    Don't get me started on the Slayers....... HATE THEM.

    Some thing make sense like, gunpowder riffles in the funnel of the tunnel? that perfect!, Since those things were super inaccurate on real life and open fields, and heavy infantry due to tunnel warfare, flametrowher make sense but the most iconic thing the Axe, height, and the exagerated beard make no sense.

    Not blaming CA they just copy pasted the GW Dwarfs, but my they are a race so badly designed. other fantasy worlds the Dwarfs are about shoulder length of a human but about the same weight in muscle which makes a lot of sense.

    Anyway just rambling since i got nothing to wait for in Warhammer we still got a month to go for an announcement.....

    Spears are difficult to use inside tunnels, where cavalry to isn't that useful when you have a low ceiling.

    Dwarfs even without armour are heavier and stronger then humans, this makes them terryfing at grappling range since they have a low center of mass.

    About the beards, like the rest of the dwarfs they are low to the ground and difficult to grab from above without getting your face smashed in.

    As for gunpowder being inaccurate, the human ones maybe but the dwarf have superior tech in that regard and can easily get better ranges out of them.
  • AzurianAzurian Posts: 299Registered Users

    I was thinking to myself that Warhammer Dwarfs and most Fantasy Dwarfs are badly designed.... Dwarfs are a underground dwelling race that live mostly in underground mountains, Tolkien Dwarfs were about 4'6 but more muscle weight than humans very strong they are realistic while Warhammer Dwarfs seem even shorter like 3'6...

    I do martial arts, height its not an advantage the advantage is Weight and in a shooting match being tall means you are a bigger target and easier to shoot. as a BJJ practitioner i can roll whit people almost feet taller similar a few pounds heavier than me and win easily, but weight.... my my how hard is it so sweep a guy 30 pounds heavier than me from mount... hence do Dwarfs are lighter than humans? because by weigh in a world were there melee fighting they surely would get smashed.

    Also their empathizes on Axes.... axes are weapons historically used on open fields were you have room to swing especially two handed axes, now Dwarf fighting in tunnels against numerous enemies the Axe would be useless since the people on the back rank cannot help the one on the front and in close quarter you can't stab whit the Axe.

    Dwarfs would be armed whit medium spears(a feet taller than them)/shield combo along whit a short stabbing sword like the Romans so that in a tunnel they would make a spear wall and when all else fails use short swords to its maximum effect. also the most absurd at all is how short the legs are, have you guys seen a real Dwarfs running? they can barely run. they are disproportionate if you look at your arms legs are supposed to be longer than the whole length of the arm. the dwarfs here the legs are the same length as the arms......

    Cavalry, in the real world even Hill people had cavalry, The Hittites had Chariots, The Samnite had Light cavalry... Dwarf makes no sense to no have at least some kind of cavalry.... that why i liked the Ram Cavalry of the film the Hobbit.

    The Beards... some warriors like the Sikh Warriors of India left their beards cover the whole of the neck because it protected their neck from cuts but dint leave them too long because they could be grabbed it, makes sense. but on Dwarfs a race that always near fire... those beards are like matchsticks... also they are to damn long.

    Don't get me started on the Slayers....... HATE THEM.

    Some thing make sense like, gunpowder riffles in the funnel of the tunnel? that perfect!, Since those things were super inaccurate on real life and open fields, and heavy infantry due to tunnel warfare, flametrowher make sense but the most iconic thing the Axe, height, and the exagerated beard make no sense.

    Not blaming CA they just copy pasted the GW Dwarfs, but my they are a race so badly designed. other fantasy worlds the Dwarfs are about shoulder length of a human but about the same weight in muscle which makes a lot of sense.

    Anyway just rambling since i got nothing to wait for in Warhammer we still got a month to go for an announcement.....

    Have you seen their tunnels? gyros and dragons calmly fly over them, are you seriously talking about the lack of space for the ax ax to maneuver?

  • AzurianAzurian Posts: 299Registered Users

    I was thinking to myself that Warhammer Dwarfs and most Fantasy Dwarfs are badly designed.... Dwarfs are a underground dwelling race that live mostly in underground mountains, Tolkien Dwarfs were about 4'6 but more muscle weight than humans very strong they are realistic while Warhammer Dwarfs seem even shorter like 3'6...

    I do martial arts, height its not an advantage the advantage is Weight and in a shooting match being tall means you are a bigger target and easier to shoot. as a BJJ practitioner i can roll whit people almost feet taller similar a few pounds heavier than me and win easily, but weight.... my my how hard is it so sweep a guy 30 pounds heavier than me from mount... hence do Dwarfs are lighter than humans? because by weigh in a world were there melee fighting they surely would get smashed.

    Also their empathizes on Axes.... axes are weapons historically used on open fields were you have room to swing especially two handed axes, now Dwarf fighting in tunnels against numerous enemies the Axe would be useless since the people on the back rank cannot help the one on the front and in close quarter you can't stab whit the Axe.

    Dwarfs would be armed whit medium spears(a feet taller than them)/shield combo along whit a short stabbing sword like the Romans so that in a tunnel they would make a spear wall and when all else fails use short swords to its maximum effect. also the most absurd at all is how short the legs are, have you guys seen a real Dwarfs running? they can barely run. they are disproportionate if you look at your arms legs are supposed to be longer than the whole length of the arm. the dwarfs here the legs are the same length as the arms......

    Cavalry, in the real world even Hill people had cavalry, The Hittites had Chariots, The Samnite had Light cavalry... Dwarf makes no sense to no have at least some kind of cavalry.... that why i liked the Ram Cavalry of the film the Hobbit.

    The Beards... some warriors like the Sikh Warriors of India left their beards cover the whole of the neck because it protected their neck from cuts but dint leave them too long because they could be grabbed it, makes sense. but on Dwarfs a race that always near fire... those beards are like matchsticks... also they are to damn long.

    Don't get me started on the Slayers....... HATE THEM.

    Some thing make sense like, gunpowder riffles in the funnel of the tunnel? that perfect!, Since those things were super inaccurate on real life and open fields, and heavy infantry due to tunnel warfare, flametrowher make sense but the most iconic thing the Axe, height, and the exagerated beard make no sense.

    Not blaming CA they just copy pasted the GW Dwarfs, but my they are a race so badly designed. other fantasy worlds the Dwarfs are about shoulder length of a human but about the same weight in muscle which makes a lot of sense.

    Anyway just rambling since i got nothing to wait for in Warhammer we still got a month to go for an announcement.....

    Anyway, in a world where lions and BIRDS are harnessed to chariots! this is strictly speaking no problem.

  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,088Registered Users
    edited August 13
    You make some good points about dwarfs (weapom choices). But the warhammer world does not make much sense. Indeed dwarfs just birthrate would die out quickly.

    You overestimate weight in MMA. If one dude weighs 150 and another 180 that is a big difference.

    But if one weighs 200 (muscles) and the other 300 it doesnt matter much.

    Jon Jones (205, light heavyweight champ) can at his weight beat any heavyweight from the last 10 years on most days imo. And when Cormier was in his class he got absolutely massacred (current heavyweight champion).

    At around 200+ pounds weight go out the window as an advantage.

    Watch a youtube video of the mountain and macgregor. Skill, speed, stamina, "longer strength" vs size and "short strength". Many of the comments think the mountain could crush mcgregor. They dont see what is happening in the video. The mountain is allready tired after a short while, macgregor is toying with him. Anyway macgregor is to light to fight a great MMA fighter like Cormier or Jones but vs a 400 pound giant that is not skilled he has no problem.

    Post edited by Tennisgolfboll on
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • NinjipplesNinjipples Posts: 632Registered Users
    edited August 13
    I'd like to point out that the average height of a dwarf in Warhammrr is actually the same as lord of the rings. If you check out any of the warhammer fantasy roleplay games the height of dwarfs ranges between 4-5 feet tall, humans average a foot taller and halflings average a foot shorter.

    Id also like to point out that they are far broader than both other species, weigh more and have more muscle. This is represented on TT with how tough they are (average halflings are T2, Humans are T3 and Dwarfs are T4).
  • GreyKnightDantesGreyKnightDantes Posts: 206Registered Users
    Just to point out....in hte lore, ANYTHING that insults the Dwarfs and their height is shunned.

    Which is why they don't like using horses. Whichi is why they don't like using spears. Which is why they don't like using bows, but usually its because bows are associated with Elves and they hate hate hate them.

    Also, the reason why they like using the one-handed axe is because it is an indeal weapon in close formation. It has great armor penetration potential and when hefted by a very strong individual, can kill extremely easily.

    Also, the beard is a cultural thing. It is meant ot denote age, rank and social standing. Not everything is strickly militarily.
    ==========================================================================================
    When you are trying hard not to burn people but you smell heresy in the air...


  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 5,066Registered Users
    edited August 13
    When you say you do martial arts... do you mean unarmed martial arts, or have you been involved in HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) or some other form of armed martial arts? Most HEMA experts agree that height and limb length actually make a BIG difference. Height means that it's easier to go for the enemy's head. Longer arms mean that you have greater reach. Longer legs mean that you have a longer stride, which effectively translates into even more effective reach (footwork is an important part of HEMA: if you and your opponent have weapons of equal reach, you generally want to stay just out of reach most of the time, stepping in when you strike, and stepping back as part of your block when defending against a strike).

    There are a few discussions out there regarding what weapons fantasy dwarfs (keeping in mind that fantasy dwarfs would have bodies that actually work that way, while the bodies of real-world people with dwarfism mostly still have bodies that have evolved on the assumption of having normal-sized limbs) would use if fighting a humanlike opponent. Broadly, if I recall correctly, it boiled to two philosophies: one being to use polearms to get as much reach as possible in order to compensate for the shorter arms and legs, and the other is essentially to rely on heavy upper body armour and/or a shield to charge in under their opponent's guard and get into what is essentially a grapple, possibly even relying on their mass and low center of gravity to bowl their target over.

    Axe and shield might actually be one of the best combinations for the second strategy: use the shield to deflect blows on the way in, and the axe is well-suited to close-in work, including (depending on the design of the axe) hooking the bottom of the axe blade on an opponent's legs to pull them off balance. The two-handed axes and hammers are probably a bit off - the dwarfs would probably be smarter to use something like a halberd or pollaxe.

    Do a search on Youtube for "what weapons would dwarfs use" and you'll see a few videos on the subject.
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 592Registered Users
    Dwarfs how they are represented in modern western fantasy like LotR, Warhammer, WoW and so on are mainly influenced by old Nordic/germanic mythology with many Celtic influences. Tolkien was also deeply inspired by that when he wrote his books.

    In Germanic mythology dwarfs live under the earth and are famous weapon smiths. But also things like Elves, trolls and other fantasy creatures have an origin in Germanic mythology.

    The base of modern Fantasy is mainly grounded on LotR, especially with the good vs. Evil theme.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Posts: 4,435Registered Users
    Realistic Dwarf would be a dying breed kept in imperial circus.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • MarkerMarker Posts: 680Registered Users
    edited August 13
    I Disagree, Height and Reach is definitely an advantage both standing and on the ground just like weight can be an advantage in MMA and in Armed Combat, for someone in MMA, you should know that.

    I would not mind that they made the dwarves taller but considering the Dwarves are like Ants who are much stronger than anything shrunk to their size and compared and have much denser bones and can take bigger hits than some creatures bigger than them.

    U have axes in different forms, u have Short and Long-range Axes, one-handed and two-handed Axes. u Even have axes that can function as a spear as well, like halberds. There is nothing wrong with using Guns and Axes in underground fights, it's not like the Underground was only small tunnels, and even if they were, the dwarves would have plenty of space and outnumber their enemies there with the exception of maybe goblins, gnoblars, and Skaven which they would still have an advantage against. they had entire Cities and open fields in those Caves and Tunnels. Plus swinging Axes down on a charging enemy can be pretty effective, u would even be able to swing an axe from behind someone that is holding the line, especially because most enemies were taller than the dwarves, plus the alongside the strength of a dwarf and the stamina they have some of the best armors.

    The beards like the dwarves are more protection than danger cause they are low to the ground and they could also treat them to be not flammable, not really an issue there, since dwarves rely on artillery and guns themselves, doubt they would be not prepared for any.

    The Slayers are not meant to survive, they want to die on the battlefield. they were hoping for a worthy death on the battlefield, without their heavy armors, they are much faster and are basically a small, fast-moving ( for a dwarf ), very strong suicide squad with dual axes ready to cleave and die alongside their enemies, they don't break, they don't run, they kill or be killed, no matter what is in front of them.
    Post edited by Marker on
  • TempestWolfTempestWolf Senior Member Posts: 781Registered Users
    WH dwarfs are very strong... those that train their strength in particular even more so (i.e. slayers)

    SORT OF SPOILER!!!

    Gotrek has an axe that Felix can barely lift, let alone swing but he swings it easily; At one point he lifts Felix by having him grab onto the axe with one hand.
    We kill-slay all surface-things yes yes? Wait... no no... beard-things are not not surface-things... kill beard-things too... and surface things... yes yes.



    I add this image of Ikit Claw to beak up the monotony that threads can fall into (except the screenshot one). I take no credit for it and the author seems to be watermarked on it.
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 10,279Registered Users
    I would say that realistic dwarfs would be norscans or halflings, the dwarfs are not very realistic by default, in real life dwarfism is a disability, but that said, warhammer's dwarfs have quite a lot of weight.
  • tyrannustyrannus Posts: 752Registered Users
    Actually warhammer's the only fantasy setting where i've seen dwarfs have helmets that cover their beards. Also warhammer's not supposed to be ultra realistic setting. It's more like a really sarcastic and messed up fairy tale.

    Believe in humanity!
  • Federykx99Federykx99 Posts: 468Registered Users
    edited August 13
    There's a skallagrim video in which he clearly demonstrates it is very possible to hit an enemy in close quarters with an axe. All you have to do is slide your hand up the handle and punch with it.

    So no, axes are fine in close quarters.

    Also about slayers, their whole point is to die in battle, so not really much can be said about them not having armor etc.
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Posts: 1,145Registered Users
    Dragons can't physically fly due to the square cube law. They are physically too heavy to lift themselves off the ground, and giving them more muscles and larger wings would just make them even heavier and this even less capable of flying.

    My point is... you've got to take all this fantasy stuff with a pinch of salt.
  • FungusHoundFungusHound Posts: 1,923Registered Users
    ArneSo said:

    Dwarfs how they are represented in modern western fantasy like LotR, Warhammer, WoW and so on are mainly influenced by old Nordic/germanic mythology with many Celtic influences. Tolkien was also deeply inspired by that when he wrote his books.

    In Germanic mythology dwarfs live under the earth and are famous weapon smiths. But also things like Elves, trolls and other fantasy creatures have an origin in Germanic mythology.

    The base of modern Fantasy is mainly grounded on LotR, especially with the good vs. Evil theme.

    And if we go back to the original Norse Dwarfs of mythology: dwarfs aren't descibed as short, were probably the same thing as black elves and may have had pitch black skin, at least one turned to stone in sunlight,and they used to be maggots who ate Ymir's corpse (though there is some alternate origin I can't remember).
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Posts: 260Registered Users
    As far as martial arts i feel the short height can be advantage where you really heavily on grappling techniques. but if it just came to punches and kicks well shorter you are more you'll get hit.
    in the end it comes down skill and training, usually a damn pointy ear would be a better fighter because they live and train longer, dwarf would come second a human well get crumped. but it all depend on fighter as for combat, better Armour and shield is always better. until guns are used,
  • another505another505 Posts: 847Registered Users
    Dwarves should use hoplite tactics

    Compensate their short height. The ones behind you can somewhat cover you. Perfect for their tight and tough formation

    The spear isnt too long for tunnels and besides, if it doesnt work you can just throw it into the enemy’s face and then switch to your handy axe
  • WyvaxWyvax Posts: 1,639Registered Users



    ArneSo said:

    Dwarfs how they are represented in modern western fantasy like LotR, Warhammer, WoW and so on are mainly influenced by old Nordic/germanic mythology with many Celtic influences. Tolkien was also deeply inspired by that when he wrote his books.

    In Germanic mythology dwarfs live under the earth and are famous weapon smiths. But also things like Elves, trolls and other fantasy creatures have an origin in Germanic mythology.

    The base of modern Fantasy is mainly grounded on LotR, especially with the good vs. Evil theme.

    And if we go back to the original Norse Dwarfs of mythology: dwarfs aren't descibed as short, were probably the same thing as black elves and may have had pitch black skin, at least one turned to stone in sunlight,and they used to be maggots who ate Ymir's corpse (though there is some alternate origin I can't remember).
    It does a writer and world builder good to remember that modern fantasy and folklore are not alike at all. Beings in fantasy tend to be distinct on a taxonomic level, while beings in folklore were more or less the same thing on a gradient or spectrum, the difference between dark Elves, dwarfs, huldra, trolls and jotun were often imperceptible. The same goes for Fey and Yokai. Much of what distinguishes really good fantasy from most fantasy is that most fantasy just rearranges the furniture in Tolkien's attic so to speak, while the good stuff actually does something novel and goes to the folklore for inspiration, not other writers.

    That's not to say fantasy has to be a masterpiece to be enjoyable, Warhammer is certainly proof that it doesn't.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer
  • goliath55goliath55 Posts: 290Registered Users
    *grumbles* *begins furiously scribbling in book of grudges*
  • FungusHoundFungusHound Posts: 1,923Registered Users
    Wyvax said:



    ArneSo said:

    Dwarfs how they are represented in modern western fantasy like LotR, Warhammer, WoW and so on are mainly influenced by old Nordic/germanic mythology with many Celtic influences. Tolkien was also deeply inspired by that when he wrote his books.

    In Germanic mythology dwarfs live under the earth and are famous weapon smiths. But also things like Elves, trolls and other fantasy creatures have an origin in Germanic mythology.

    The base of modern Fantasy is mainly grounded on LotR, especially with the good vs. Evil theme.

    And if we go back to the original Norse Dwarfs of mythology: dwarfs aren't descibed as short, were probably the same thing as black elves and may have had pitch black skin, at least one turned to stone in sunlight,and they used to be maggots who ate Ymir's corpse (though there is some alternate origin I can't remember).
    It does a writer and world builder good to remember that modern fantasy and folklore are not alike at all. Beings in fantasy tend to be distinct on a taxonomic level, while beings in folklore were more or less the same thing on a gradient or spectrum, the difference between dark Elves, dwarfs, huldra, trolls and jotun were often imperceptible. The same goes for Fey and Yokai. Much of what distinguishes really good fantasy from most fantasy is that most fantasy just rearranges the furniture in Tolkien's attic so to speak, while the good stuff actually does something novel and goes to the folklore for inspiration, not other writers.

    That's not to say fantasy has to be a masterpiece to be enjoyable, Warhammer is certainly proof that it doesn't.
    Oh I agree. I am firmly of the opinion that modern fantasy needs to step away from huffing the Tolkien tropes. Its fantasy, you can be creative and can draw inspiration from any source.

    I generally give Warhammer a pass because of its age and it really helped to popularize a lot of modern fantasy tropes. Just like D&D. But in modern stuff when I see typical something like stereotypical Dwarfs without any attempt to be creative I'm usually turned off of whatever it is.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 9,137Registered Users
    edited August 13

    I was thinking to myself that Warhammer Dwarfs and most Fantasy Dwarfs are badly designed.... Dwarfs are a underground dwelling race that live mostly in underground mountains, Tolkien Dwarfs were about 4'6 but more muscle weight than humans very strong they are realistic while Warhammer Dwarfs seem even shorter like 3'6...

    I do martial arts, height its not an advantage the advantage is Weight and in a shooting match being tall means you are a bigger target and easier to shoot. as a BJJ practitioner i can roll whit people almost feet taller similar a few pounds heavier than me and win easily, but weight.... my my how hard is it so sweep a guy 30 pounds heavier than me from mount... hence do Dwarfs are lighter than humans? because by weigh in a world were there melee fighting they surely would get smashed.

    Also their empathizes on Axes.... axes are weapons historically used on open fields were you have room to swing especially two handed axes, now Dwarf fighting in tunnels against numerous enemies the Axe would be useless since the people on the back rank cannot help the one on the front and in close quarter you can't stab whit the Axe.

    Dwarfs would be armed whit medium spears(a feet taller than them)/shield combo along whit a short stabbing sword like the Romans so that in a tunnel they would make a spear wall and when all else fails use short swords to its maximum effect. also the most absurd at all is how short the legs are, have you guys seen a real Dwarfs running? they can barely run. they are disproportionate if you look at your arms legs are supposed to be longer than the whole length of the arm. the dwarfs here the legs are the same length as the arms......

    Cavalry, in the real world even Hill people had cavalry, The Hittites had Chariots, The Samnite had Light cavalry... Dwarf makes no sense to no have at least some kind of cavalry.... that why i liked the Ram Cavalry of the film the Hobbit.

    The Beards... some warriors like the Sikh Warriors of India left their beards cover the whole of the neck because it protected their neck from cuts but dint leave them too long because they could be grabbed it, makes sense. but on Dwarfs a race that always near fire... those beards are like matchsticks... also they are to damn long.

    Don't get me started on the Slayers....... HATE THEM.

    Some thing make sense like, gunpowder riffles in the funnel of the tunnel? that perfect!, Since those things were super inaccurate on real life and open fields, and heavy infantry due to tunnel warfare, flametrowher make sense but the most iconic thing the Axe, height, and the exagerated beard make no sense.

    Not blaming CA they just copy pasted the GW Dwarfs, but my they are a race so badly designed. other fantasy worlds the Dwarfs are about shoulder length of a human but about the same weight in muscle which makes a lot of sense.

    Anyway just rambling since i got nothing to wait for in Warhammer we still got a month to go for an announcement.....

    ... axes not good... beards bad...

    *enters that guy into the Dammaz Kron just underneath Skarsnik*

    "Dwarfs would be armed with spears" would they be? Just because it might realistically be the most effective weapon doesn't mean they'd use it.

    Also: Look at the Dwarf Halls and tunnels. They tend to be rather large...

    Dwarfs also are not "hill people" but usually live UNDERGROUND

    Warhammer dwarfs also are heavier than humans because they are far more massive... they are basically walking mountains of steel hard muscles.



    "They are badly designed"
    Here there is the empty corner of the folks who care about that for real and not just for fun.

    Dwarfs are Dwarfs. We have a picture of "How Dwarfs should be". And it's usually accepted. Some like Terry Pratchett play with that and do it well. Other's go with the base and do it well. Others try to do their own thing and do it well. And again others Try to do it differently and fail.

    Also: "Go back to Folklore"... which in its own way is also "relying on other authors"... just that we don't know who originally came up with it.
    Every wrong is recorded! Every slight against us! Page after Page, etched in blood! Clan Gunnison! Karak Eight-Peaks! Josef Bugman!

    Yes! to Boris Todbringer as playable, subfaction leading Legendary Lord with Starting Position Middenheim instead for the Empire! NO to the lazy way of moving Gelt and Volkmar who both belong to Reikland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 592Registered Users
    When it’s about Fantasy, I really like the setting of the Witcher. It’s new and refreshing. Elves are not the shiny eldar of the world. Dwarfs and Elves living in a human dominated world full of racism and hate against anything not human. It’s a dark and dirty world. Most fantasy settings just copy and paste from LotR, Warhammer is not different there when it’s about Dwarfs and Elves.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 9,137Registered Users
    ArneSo said:

    When it’s about Fantasy, I really like the setting of the Witcher. It’s new and refreshing. Elves are not the shiny eldar of the world. Dwarfs and Elves living in a human dominated world full of racism and hate against anything not human. It’s a dark and dirty world. Most fantasy settings just copy and paste from LotR, Warhammer is not different there when it’s about Dwarfs and Elves.

    Dwarfs are still the Tolkien influenced Dwarfs. Just because you add a different slab of paint doesn't change that.

    Yes, Warhammer is different from LotR in terms of Elves and Dwarfs. Extremely similar (nobody ever accused GWs of being creative...) yet still distinct.

    Also, the "hate against anything not human"... the Witcher Elves aren't so innocent either. They used to hunt the other Elder Races for fun.
    Every wrong is recorded! Every slight against us! Page after Page, etched in blood! Clan Gunnison! Karak Eight-Peaks! Josef Bugman!

    Yes! to Boris Todbringer as playable, subfaction leading Legendary Lord with Starting Position Middenheim instead for the Empire! NO to the lazy way of moving Gelt and Volkmar who both belong to Reikland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 10,279Registered Users

    Wyvax said:



    ArneSo said:

    Dwarfs how they are represented in modern western fantasy like LotR, Warhammer, WoW and so on are mainly influenced by old Nordic/germanic mythology with many Celtic influences. Tolkien was also deeply inspired by that when he wrote his books.

    In Germanic mythology dwarfs live under the earth and are famous weapon smiths. But also things like Elves, trolls and other fantasy creatures have an origin in Germanic mythology.

    The base of modern Fantasy is mainly grounded on LotR, especially with the good vs. Evil theme.

    And if we go back to the original Norse Dwarfs of mythology: dwarfs aren't descibed as short, were probably the same thing as black elves and may have had pitch black skin, at least one turned to stone in sunlight,and they used to be maggots who ate Ymir's corpse (though there is some alternate origin I can't remember).
    It does a writer and world builder good to remember that modern fantasy and folklore are not alike at all. Beings in fantasy tend to be distinct on a taxonomic level, while beings in folklore were more or less the same thing on a gradient or spectrum, the difference between dark Elves, dwarfs, huldra, trolls and jotun were often imperceptible. The same goes for Fey and Yokai. Much of what distinguishes really good fantasy from most fantasy is that most fantasy just rearranges the furniture in Tolkien's attic so to speak, while the good stuff actually does something novel and goes to the folklore for inspiration, not other writers.

    That's not to say fantasy has to be a masterpiece to be enjoyable, Warhammer is certainly proof that it doesn't.
    Oh I agree. I am firmly of the opinion that modern fantasy needs to step away from huffing the Tolkien tropes. Its fantasy, you can be creative and can draw inspiration from any source.

    I generally give Warhammer a pass because of its age and it really helped to popularize a lot of modern fantasy tropes. Just like D&D. But in modern stuff when I see typical something like stereotypical Dwarfs without any attempt to be creative I'm usually turned off of whatever it is.
    I like to see an familiar fantasy races, it's can be annoying to read about totally unknown fantasy races, a new thing is not always better, and who has time to 'learn' about totally new fantasy stuff?
  • WazabazabaWazabazaba Posts: 23Registered Users
    The problem with the MMA and HEMA comparisons is that those are duels. The dynamics of combat changes when we start talking about regimented warfare. In regimented warfare generally the spear is a better weapon as the weakness of it, ineffectiveness in close quarters, is made up for by the ranks. As others have stated only the front rank is able to effectively attack with an axe. Also to get the most out of an axe you need a wide swing, which would force a relatively loose formation and does not match the stated favored formation of tightly packed dwarves.
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 10,279Registered Users
    ArneSo said:

    When it’s about Fantasy, I really like the setting of the Witcher. It’s new and refreshing. Elves are not the shiny eldar of the world. Dwarfs and Elves living in a human dominated world full of racism and hate against anything not human. It’s a dark and dirty world. Most fantasy settings just copy and paste from LotR, Warhammer is not different there when it’s about Dwarfs and Elves.

    Elves who lose their superiority don't have much appeal to me, I don't find it very elfy, also in the new witcher series the "elves" are not even going to look like the elves, might as well call them something else.
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 9,137Registered Users
    Tayvar said:

    ArneSo said:

    When it’s about Fantasy, I really like the setting of the Witcher. It’s new and refreshing. Elves are not the shiny eldar of the world. Dwarfs and Elves living in a human dominated world full of racism and hate against anything not human. It’s a dark and dirty world. Most fantasy settings just copy and paste from LotR, Warhammer is not different there when it’s about Dwarfs and Elves.

    Elves who lose their superiority don't have much appeal to me, I don't find it very elfy, also in the new witcher series the "elves" are not even going to look like the elves, might as well call them something else.
    if you refer to the trailer... those likely weren't elves but hte Dryads of Brokkilon

    I could snark about the casting being iffy considering the 2 ways the Dryads swell their numbers... but I won't
    Every wrong is recorded! Every slight against us! Page after Page, etched in blood! Clan Gunnison! Karak Eight-Peaks! Josef Bugman!

    Yes! to Boris Todbringer as playable, subfaction leading Legendary Lord with Starting Position Middenheim instead for the Empire! NO to the lazy way of moving Gelt and Volkmar who both belong to Reikland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?
  • WyvaxWyvax Posts: 1,639Registered Users

    Wyvax said:



    ArneSo said:

    Dwarfs how they are represented in modern western fantasy like LotR, Warhammer, WoW and so on are mainly influenced by old Nordic/germanic mythology with many Celtic influences. Tolkien was also deeply inspired by that when he wrote his books.

    In Germanic mythology dwarfs live under the earth and are famous weapon smiths. But also things like Elves, trolls and other fantasy creatures have an origin in Germanic mythology.

    The base of modern Fantasy is mainly grounded on LotR, especially with the good vs. Evil theme.

    And if we go back to the original Norse Dwarfs of mythology: dwarfs aren't descibed as short, were probably the same thing as black elves and may have had pitch black skin, at least one turned to stone in sunlight,and they used to be maggots who ate Ymir's corpse (though there is some alternate origin I can't remember).
    It does a writer and world builder good to remember that modern fantasy and folklore are not alike at all. Beings in fantasy tend to be distinct on a taxonomic level, while beings in folklore were more or less the same thing on a gradient or spectrum, the difference between dark Elves, dwarfs, huldra, trolls and jotun were often imperceptible. The same goes for Fey and Yokai. Much of what distinguishes really good fantasy from most fantasy is that most fantasy just rearranges the furniture in Tolkien's attic so to speak, while the good stuff actually does something novel and goes to the folklore for inspiration, not other writers.

    That's not to say fantasy has to be a masterpiece to be enjoyable, Warhammer is certainly proof that it doesn't.
    Oh I agree. I am firmly of the opinion that modern fantasy needs to step away from huffing the Tolkien tropes. Its fantasy, you can be creative and can draw inspiration from any source.

    I generally give Warhammer a pass because of its age and it really helped to popularize a lot of modern fantasy tropes. Just like D&D. But in modern stuff when I see typical something like stereotypical Dwarfs without any attempt to be creative I'm usually turned off of whatever it is.
    I passed over Warhammer for this very reason, it took seeing the Lizardmen in the reveal trailer for me to actually learn about it. I'm glad I did.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer
  • VhaegrantVhaegrant Member Posts: 251Registered Users
    Warhammer is a game based around iconic (clichéd) stereotypes that provide a clear visual difference between troops.
    If you're going to bring reality into the arguement Warhammer is not the best place, even for the factions that are less fantastical 😉
Sign In or Register to comment.