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Wood Elves Outposts and the Worldroots: how to Improve their Campaign

SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
edited August 16 in Feedback & Suggestions
The Wood Elves are in dire need of an update to their faction mechanics and story. As it stands now: the Wood Elves are forced to expand like every other faction, by conquering settlements, to get replenishment, more Amber etc. The problem is that the outposts are extremely vulnerable and useless compared to other factions settlements and this traditional method of expansion does not gel with the Wood Elves fast, raider/hit and run playstyle.

I propose a way to revitalise the Expansion options of the Wood Elves by Changing how the outposts work. Instead of conquering settlements as the Wood Elves, their outposts could work like a hybrid of settlements and Pirate Coves/Under Cities. They don't exist within settlements themselves but they still have garrisons, building chains and so on.

When you capture a settlement as the wood elves you could be faced with new options:

- Sack and withdraw

- Sack and occupy (similar to the Vampire and Skaven option of keeping the enemy settlement intact, but creating an underway/cove/outpost within that province as well)

- raze

- Raze and Occupy


Instead of having the Wood Elves occupy the ruins of settlements like the Skaven’s do: Wood Elf Outposts would be their own structure, hidden somewhere within that region (preferably on a forest tile)

The Wood Elf outposts would be Invisible to all other factions, which would make them far less vulnerable, give the Wood Elves a better foothold outside Athel Loren and it would work better thematically as well.

How could other factions find these outposts?


As of right now: heroes are able to investigate settlements for Under Cities or Pirate Coves, but these new Wood Elf outposts would be completely invisible and outside the city so how would other factions find them?

This would be achieved by changing the way heroes investigate. Instead of clicking on the settlements to investigate: the hero could have a button that activates the Investigation when they are standing within the province (Like how "cleanse corruption" and other hero abilities worked in Warhammer 1)

I also think that, instead of it working 100% of the time, this investigation mechanic should have a certain chance for success each turn, or it should take a certain number of turns to complete the investigation. This gives time for the faction with a hidden Cove, Underway or Outpost to react and plan ahead.

The Worldroots and How to expand upon Outposts


I’m not sure if you’ve ever played Endless Space 2 or Endless Legend, but I think CA could take Inspiration from the Vaulters and the Unfallen from those games.

The Unfallen are a race of tree people, who can extend the roots of their world-Tree to adjacent regions (this is a prerequisite for their colonisation of other regions). The Vaulters on the other hand can Teleport between their settlements.

There are multiple ways this could be implemented, but I think the Wood Elves Worldroots should function the same way: with the player able to extend the Worldroots to other regions from turn 1.

You would be able to conquer where you want, as normal, but you aren't able to properly upgrade your outposts until you extend the Worldroots to that same region. (Wood Elf armies could also get some passive bonuses to being/fighting in regions where the Worldroots have been extended)

Perhaps you could even terraform other regions into becoming a part of the Magical Forest after a while.

Extending the Worldroots to a region with an outpost would also allow you to construct a special building in that Outpost. This building allows you to teleport garrisoned armies to Other outposts with the same building chain or back home to Athel loren.

this teleportation mechanic might sound a bit OP, but you could restrict it in a similar way to the Geomantic web: so, you can only Teleport to settlements that are connected to yours in a sequence. (perhaps you could get technology later on to Transcend this limitation)

Comments

  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,167Registered Users
    edited August 17
    Nice ideas. I agree with them all. But for start we should give Glade Guard +2 to melee attack to finally fulfil their hybrid role. xD
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,339Registered Users
    "Perhaps you could even terraform other regions into becoming a part of the Magical Forest after a while. "
    Should note that the Wood Elves are actually against expanding the forest as they actively contain it. Any expanding the forest would be through corruption with Drycha.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    @Arthas_Menethil

    Could give it to any of them for mechanical purposes but that sounds fine by me, I defer to that.
  • RifugioRifugio Member Posts: 1,017Registered Users
    Agree that their current mechanics do not suit wood elves who are renowned for their stealth (particularly in woodlands). Hidden enclave mechanics would be much better for them which was my second thought when playing through my first vampire pirate campaign. First thought was that it would really work for Skaven.

    Wood elves are not aggressive expansionists which is what their current outpost mechanic forces them to be; however to give them a reason to expand beyond their borders of Athel Loren, I've proposed having several other major dormant magical forests across the world map. These forests act as conduits to Athel Loren for corruption, which makes it also necessary to protect them if they fall under the sway of corrupting forces. They could also be awakened allowing the world roots to grant more rapid transportation of armies, and strengthening of the Oak of Ages. The flip side of awakening a dormant forest is that it increases the ability of corruption, to seep into Athel Loren, and should they be destroyed Athel Loren will also suffer greatly.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    edited August 17
    @Rifugio

    Yeah I totally agree that they should also get lothel Loren, avelorn, the one in the Southlands, a few in Naggaroth etc.

    With my suggestion of expanding the world roots to other regions: perhaps you get new tech to research that, once complete, repairs some of the old dead worldroots and allows you to teleport to other continents or make contact with the other forests / repair and colonize them.

    I did like Italian Spartacus's idea of putting other new LL in these other forests as well.

    Only reason I didn't mention it here is that my OP was about outposts in particular. These other forests should be full blown settlements for them.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,167Registered Users
    Ok so I reconsidered, the ideas this thread suggests are good but don't fit WE nature, so I disagree with their implementation. Whoever wants expansive elves play DE, HE. This is the way it goes, each faction has its own way, whoever wants a certain way play the specific faction.
  • RifugioRifugio Member Posts: 1,017Registered Users
    edited August 19
    A problem with the Wood Elves in the lore is they were originally painted as tied to Athel Loren, defensive and non-expansionist in nature, with a subtext of manipulation of Bretonnia ; but that basically goes against the core raison d'être for any army list in Warhammer, which is basically to have an excuse to fight ALL other army lists. Even the idea of the Wild hunt as an excuse to go on a murderous rampage, doesn't really cover the kind of crusade required to get to some of the major races continents away. So essentially you have to be always waiting for them to come to you...

    In Warhammer Total War it becomes apparent that a WoodElf Campaign is limiting, being bottled up against the mountains, and surrounded by Bretonnia. With only the odd Greenskin or Beastman incursion for variety. Expansion against Bretonnia is pretty much the default play for a large part of the campaign, but just does not sit right. Skaven incursions gave them an additional foe, but still the campaign independent of which Lord you select is quite repetitive.

    I think it's better to give them a reason to move into other theatres, ie. the great forests spread across many continents, bringing them into contact with Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Khemri, and other factions. By still tying them to the forests, they remain essentially defensive, only unlike now they would not need to conquer most of Bretonnia to collect their amber.

    It should not be necessary to expand into all forest, but giving the choice of which to expand into or develop alliances with would make the wood elf campaign more globally relevant and varied. The collecting Amber mechanic has no place in the lore anyway. Much better to be protecting and reviving the great magical forest which is the source of all of their power. Given that the world root system already exists with at least one major link to the heart of Ulthuan it's not too much of a stretch to believe there are other links to other forests, currently dormant - but pending awakening or hidden wood elf enclaves, protecting the heart of the forests from corruption...
  • ZercaZerca Posts: 67Registered Users
    *Posts link of dead Suggestion post which he is going to resurrect*

    *laughs in necromancer*

    See my post , especially the part about the Worldroot system. Here they might work as portals. Other than in your post, I thought of setting them at fixed locations, but can allow very long distance travel (see the map for more information, as well as the portal post linked inside the Woodelf post)

    I like the idea of setting the outposts within foreign areas and would really like to combine such to my existing idea. otherwise as the Vampire Coast or Skaven, these outposts simple clean corruption and order factions, generally do not see building such, as an act of aggression. So a alliance with order factions might be possible. Still, they allow to regain and recruit globally , likewise they were able before.

    The world root nodes on the other hand do work likewise build cities, but allow teleport. I think more details are given in the link. I honestly dont have the time to abstract such.
    Rifugio said:

    A problem with the Wood Elves in the lore is they were originally painted as tied to Athel Loren, defensive and non-expansionist in nature, with a subtext of manipulation of Bretonnia ; but that basically goes against the core raison d'être for any army list in Warhammer, which is basically to have an excuse to fight ALL other army lists. Even the idea of the Wild hunt as an excuse to go on a murderous rampage, doesn't really cover the kind of crusade required to get to some of the major races continents away. So essentially you have to be always waiting for them to come to you...

    In Warhammer Total War it becomes apparent that a WoodElf Campaign is limiting, being bottled up against the mountains, and surrounded by Bretonnia. With only the odd Greenskin or Beastman incursion for variety. Expansion against Bretonnia is pretty much the default play for a large part of the campaign, but just does not sit right. Skaven incursions gave them an additional foe, but still the campaign independent of which Lord you select is quite repetitive.

    I think it's better to give them a reason to move into other theatres, ie. the great forests spread across many continents, bringing them into contact with Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Khemri, and other factions. By still tying them to the forests, they remain essentially defensive, only unlike now they would not need to conquer most of Bretonnia to collect their amber.

    It should not be necessary to expand into all forest, but giving the choice of which to expand into or develop alliances with would make the wood elf campaign more globally relevant and varied. The collecting Amber mechanic has no place in the lore anyway. Much better to be protecting and reviving the great magical forest which is the source of all of their power. Given that the world root system already exists with at least one major link to the heart of Ulthuan it's not too much of a stretch to believe there are other links to other forests, currently dormant - but pending awakening or hidden wood elf enclaves, protecting the heart of the forests from corruption...

    In my post I tried to explain, that protecting their home Forrest might require to leave it in order to protect its roots. Recently a lot of dark forces arises, which might abuse the power of the world tree, by draining its magic from its roots. Skaven, Vampire pirates, dark elves, I think even Tomb Kings might have a interest to get in possession the power of the wood elves. Therefore I think, putting the woodelves into the vortex campaign do make a lot of sens. You might look into my post, to see what kind of new LL I had in my mind, or what came up in the suggestions. These woodelf tribes were exiled, but still work in favor of athel loren.

    Though I remember, that I thought of some kind of crazy ramapage Woodelf faction in Nehek, which try to "revive" the deadlands, in favor of the everqueen, which either aligns with their asur or druchii cousins . I think adding some kind of crazyness would underline the more neutral character of such a faction.

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    @Zerca

    Good to see that I'm not the only one on the Forums with this kind of idea :)

    I would love for them to be in fixed locations too. I'm very much in favour of CA creating many short cuts and new points of interest on the map (Like the Lake of echoes that runs between Wissenland and Mirigliano.

    the Only reason I tried to justify them in a building chain rather than in fixed nodes is that the building chain would work in tandem with the ability to expand the world roots around different regions as I stated in my OP. it would offer the player more control over where these shortcuts appear and where they go and would allow the wood elves to easily defend their own territory.

    that being said, I'd be happy with either or.
  • RifugioRifugio Member Posts: 1,017Registered Users
    @Zerca liked your earlier posts, especially regarding world roots and portals, although I noticed green skins did not get much of a mention.

    I've been wondering also for a while if it would be a good idea to allow armies to spend longer using the under ways before surfacing. Currently they need to surface every turn. By allowing them to use other settlements as targets, instead, perhaps they could stay underground suffering attrition (and reduction to loyalty) for longer distances - with the risk of an underground events (cave in, getting lost, unearthing something best left unearthed). This would work for Dwarfs, Skaven and GreenSkins.

    If the Dwarves perfect their underground railroad tech this would increase the speed they can cover the distances at and reduce the risk. Perhaps with similar if less reliable research available to Skaven and Greenskins.
  • ZercaZerca Posts: 67Registered Users
    Rifugio said:

    @Zerca liked your earlier posts, especially regarding world roots and portals, although I noticed green skins did not get much of a mention.

    I simply had forgotten them :D maybe because I did not spend too much time of figuring out what they might be able to do. A shaman portal to the hills of lustria from the badlands and a connection directly to the darklands would be cool, but I did not looked to much in their lore.

    Anyway, I would generally recommend to stay on @SeanJeanquoi topic.

    @Zerca

    the Only reason I tried to justify them in a building chain rather than in fixed nodes is that the building chain would work in tandem with the ability to expand the world roots around different regions as I stated in my OP. it would offer the player more control over where these shortcuts appear and where they go and would allow the wood elves to easily defend their own territory.

    that being said, I'd be happy with either or.

    The point is, that such freedom, might cause problems balancing wise. Some players might totally exploit such a feature, create far too many roots which might break their own expierence or even is impossible to balance in a coop(well I know they work together, but it might feels odd, if your allied player is messing arround with such a feature, and is totally overpowered) or a versus campaign.

    In addition to that, such network might very very expensive, and the gained freedom can feel overwhelming. you might choose poorly by creating unimportant roots , for the sake of a complete network.

    Fixed positions do have the advantage, that every participant might know , what will happen. If you decide, that your woodelf tribe should go for averlorn, they can grow their roots to that location, if they decide to grow to lustria, their roots can go there. You still have some kind of decision, but we are talking here about continents or broader regions , not sole provinces.

    The fixed locations will reduce potential spots, opposed factions might look for the roots. a beastman player, might be able to locate those roots, corrupt its roots, jump from their to the next node, and do gain a new advantage. Just because the player knows, that these nodes are connected. A "procedural" generated network, might be very confusing, and not end where he expects to land. A enemy which knows that rootends are residing in his region, might be prepared to defend himself, or even, prepare an ambush...

    noteworthy , these locations might be shifted from game to game, but I do not know if such a feature, would really enjoyed or just add a new random factor which for me is quite unwanted.
  • RifugioRifugio Member Posts: 1,017Registered Users
    For me it would be better to have fixed networks located in the heart of great forests around the Globe. This gives the player the choice of which they want to tackle, and as a sandbox if the dormant magical forests fall into corrupting hands, it can also force the Wood Elves to react to a changing and dynamic campaign. Important thing is that the dormant forest should be new theatres of war. Bringing the Woodelves into contact and/or conflict with different factions and races.

    I think the random mechanic suits locating items better (such as the Khemri tomes).

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