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Sigmar Wills It! : Kurt Helborg overview

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  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 10,131Registered Users
    Fossoway said:


    Here are potential Empire LL (or heroes that can be upgraded to LL status) that have the qualities of being different AND providing a unique gameplay:
    - Markus Wulfhart (ranged)
    - Marius Leitdorf (melee, but his insanity can provide unique mechanics)
    - Elspeth von Dracken (death wizard on a dragon)
    - Emil Varngeir (support lord similar to Volkmar but with the Cult of Ulric)

    Tell me, why chose Helborg and Schwartzhelm when there are so many other better, unique and alledgedly more popular choices?

    Well because most candidates you name are actually pretty bad options.

    Only 2 are directly Armybook lords, with a 3rd one being Forgeworld.

    Being "range" is hardly an Advantage since most of the existing range LL or generic Lords are hardly hits. Also he is a very new character in WH and not one that plausible would lead an army nor a province.

    Marius is also a melee fighter, but curiously you chose to give him a pass, despite the fact that Hellborg, as Reiksmarshall can have unique mechanics quite easily. Thou I would give him the only one to really challenge Hellborg, thanks to being Armybook and a plausible leader for a province.

    Elspeth von Dracken only saving grace would be that she would have a dragon. If its wise to have KF to be 2nd to another Empire LL in terms of mount is questionable.
    Otherwise she is "just gelt in death magic".
    Also not really in position to either lead armies or provinces.

    Emil is a copy of Volkmar but with Wolfskin, yet you claim that he is supposedly be more unique then the "KF Copy" Hellborg (I exclude Schwartzhelm since he belongs into a LH role).

    So I hardly see you being consequential in your logic.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • BronzebeardBronzebeard Posts: 136Registered Users
    edited August 18
    I want Kurt as LL and his mustache as a LH!

    I feel Kurt should come with the generic grand master lord type, and a few new knight units.
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 5,832Registered Users
    I find it hard to get excited by any prospective Empire LL additions. Especially the likes of Helborg and Schwartzhelm. I don’t know there’s nothing special about them to me. Just a couple of dudes.

    I could get somewhat excited about the likes of Luthor Huss or Valten. Or Luthor Huss with a side dish of a quest to find Valten. Don’t even want Valten as his Mk2 or Mk3 variant. Just the blacksmith’s son with dual hammers that wiped out a Beastmen raiding party on his lonesomes would do just fine. The ther two were too ostentatious for my liking.
    Lord of the Undermountain
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    edited August 18
    @Ares354

    It's stated that she's the arch mage of the lore of death and that she's about as powerful as Gelt. She's not the grand master because she has no real interest in the machinations of the politics or administration of the empire/the college's day to day. Shes loyal to the college but she doesn't go there often because she's an introvert and prefers to do her own thing. It's a big part of her character.

    Also, Gelt is the supreme patriarch and he hates her so it's entirely possible that he is stopping her rising through the ranks because he doesn't want her to become more influential.

    "She's good in melee, how could you price that?" Umm...maybe her stats? And the fact that when lords get mounts, they usually get their stats buffed to be the same as that mount, with a little on top.

    She's not the Elector Countess but she does command the armies on the countesses behalf (because Wissenlands countess is useless)...how is this any different to Helborgs position as Reiksmarchal? Elsbeth would obviously go in Nuln where she lives so, despite the fact that she doesn't technically own the lands, she does have a defined territory that she would rule over (Wissenland).

    As I said to Vanilla Gorilla earlier: Lords don't get in simply because they're "supposed to be the guy in charge". Sure, Helborg is Reiksmarchal but in WH2 that doesn't mean very much at all. Most of that context is lost in translation and what we get is a guy with a cool mustache who buffs cav.

    Elsbeth is noted to have saved her people multiple times but it's mostly in secret. She wants to do good but doesn't want to be in the spotlight for it. She's killed notable Vampires and Greenskin hordes and she lead the armies of Nuln against a Chaos invasion (pretty sure she kills the leader of said invasion)

    Oh Helborg could come with a single RoR could he? wow no way! Which one?! And how does this make him a character more worthy than Markus, The Ulricans or the Wissenlanders? Unless he can bring more to the table he's still got some of the least potential out of that lot.

    And by the way, you asking "who has Elsbeth killed, how can you prove she's good" is histerical because Helborg is never stated to have done anything of specific importance. He just lead some campaigns we don't know about. In his fight with the grail knight it shows you that his strength is a façade: he's all bark, but when it comes to the crunch he's a coward and a cheat who has never been nocked on his ass before so he never realised it. Then in the end times he dies like nothing...what a hero...
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    edited August 18
    @Ares354

    What provencal units could Averland being, don't just wave your hands at me and act like you've somehow disproven what I'm saying.

    All Averland has is Landsknecht's and that's about it.

    "Markus isn't a leader" he is in the lore, he leads his own band of monster slayers. Are you trying to say he's not a lord? Because neither was Isabella or Tiktaq'to. Neither is Gor-rok, despite the common consensus saying he should be. Neither is Nakai or Gotrek and Felix or Grim Burloksson or Joseph Bugman: despite them being fan favourites and the top of many people's lists. Kroak used to be a lord, but I guess not anymore!

    Among Nuln's potential units are the following:

    Gundel's defenders: spear regiments who were formed after Gorbad sacked Nuln. spacifically used to defend artillery pieces.

    Schwarzspears

    The Knights Griffon (Knights Panther, who became templars)

    Gunther’s Sootmen: handgunners, Rivals to the zweishots. Better accuracy, work best at mid to long range (could be the WIssenland equivolent to Hochland snipers)

    The Zweishots: handgunners, rivles to the sootmen, fast reload and rate of fire, low armour, work better at mid to close range (these guys do more damage the closer the target, so they could work like flanking missile units or even something comparable to Deck Gunners since they're all about rapid fire)

    The Swords of Nuln (Countess's personal retainer)

    Erwin’s Marksmen

    The Marshal’s Rifles “hawkeyes”: ROR handgunners

    Black-Reik Guards / Black-Reik Guns

    Wicked Lucille (RoR mortar crew)

    Long Tom (RoR cannon crew)

    The Sterntower Marksmen (elite crossbowmen)

    Pikemen (its mentioned that they have exceptional pikemen but they aren't referred to by name)

    Nuln Ironsides (heavy armoured and disciplined Rifle/handgunners)

    Nuln's inclusion would also facilitate the inclusion of the master engineers and if we get Jubal Falk: the Hochland longrifles as well. Because he, and many master engineers use the longrifles.
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    edited August 18
    @SiWI

    You are wrong on so many levels for reasons I've already explained to the others.

    Elsbeth is literally a lord choice and forgeworld is Legit (and CA have used it before) people always pick and choose what is and isn't legit to pretend like they have the high ground.

    Truth is: forgeworld and the monstrous archanum, not only has some of the best potential inclusions in it, but also alot of what's still missing that people want comes from there and it has **** like the Chaos dwarfs which everybody wants.

    Elsbeth is a lord choice and literally commands the armies and plans the stratagies at the countesses behest. You are making assertions with no real foundations.

    She's not Gelt with death magic because she is Etherial, affected by exorsisms/things that affect undead, she has a dragon and her strength on foot would be more comparable to Alarielle and Morathi than Gelt because she's not as frail as wet tissue paper like Gelt is (he's that way because he's almost dead underneath) since when is getting another mage with different spells not allowed because we already have a mage that's completely different?

    As for the rest, read my other comments above as I already just covered this.
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 10,131Registered Users

    @SiWI

    You are wrong on so many levels for reasons I've already explained to the others..

    thats rich coming from you.

    Elsbeth is literally a lord choice and forgeworld is Legit (and CA have used it before) people always pick and choose what is and isn't legit to pretend like they have the high ground.

    I said she was no province leader and while she rulewise can lead armies, lorewise there is little reason for her to do so.

    Truth is: forgeworld and the monstrous archanum, not only has some of the best potential inclusions in it, but also alot of what's still missing that people want comes from there and it has **** like the Chaos dwarfs which everybody wants.

    Son I have pointed to the Chaos dwarfs being the 16th race because they have a frogeworld armybook, years ago...
    And that does not address the fact that foreword is the reserve in terms of contend not the first line.
    Show me an example where CA used forgeworld, when armybook stuff was there unused.

    So yeah...
    if there where no armybook Lords available she would have a strong case, but right we still have 2 left and they quite frankly have higher priority.
    Elsbeth is a lord choice and literally commands the armies and plans the stratagies at the countesses behest. You are making assertions with no real foundations.

    She commands armies in the same way any other general would get them, but she doesn't own them.
    And she doesn't rule a province or would get command of one.
    Which is kinda what one would look at, if you count lore as argument for one being LL or not.
    Same goes to Wulfhart but that seem to be missed by you as well.

    She's not Gelt with death magic because she is Etherial, affected by exorsisms/things that affect undead, she has a dragon and her strength on foot would be more comparable to Alarielle and Morathi than Gelt because she's not as frail as wet tissue paper like Gelt is (he's that way because he's almost dead underneath) since when is getting another mage with different spells not allowed because we already have a mage that's completely different?

    if you care to read the comment I respond to you may spotted the fact the guy I respond to used as argument that Hellborg would be "just another melee LL like KF".
    And with that mindset, She is simply another magic LL with a different lore.

    Also that you are convince that a Empire mage, which what she is most basically, without dragon, would be some sort of cable melee fighter (and that Gelt is not because of his injuries) is hilarious.

    Have you ever seen a stat profile for Empire Lord wizards? Want to send THAT into melee against anything?

    As for the rest, read my other comments above as I already just covered this

    And as badly you did everything here.
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  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    @SiWI


    "thats rich coming from you." I love how people like you always have to preface your counter points by establishing your opposition as a hypocrite or lier...you know...so you can attack the caricature of me you've got in your head instead of engage with me on equal footing.

    So your argument is that the content we get is a strict hierarchy. With the highest priorities being 8th edition, official, main line content at the top. And Forgeworld, minor factions and older editions bellow that? And you want me to point to an instance where CA has implemented Forgeworld stuff or older edition stuff instead of 8th edition, which you deem more important? (For arbitrary reasons)

    Well ok. How's about when CA implemented Norsca in the first game? Creating a unique roster that was either from Forgeworld or was completely made up (or partly made up by expanding a character or mentioned group into a full blown unit).

    Or how about when CA made the Vampire coast and were given permission from GW to literally make up half the roster, an entirely new character and turn Sartosa into vampires....there's also that...

    Then theirs the inclusion of Ghorst who has less lore than Nakai, yet there he is. Vlad should also be dead at this moment and I'm pretty sure he's not in 8th edition as a result.

    We could go on like that if you want. The content isn't a strict hierarchy, CA has been given a fair amount of creative liberty since the first game did so well, and we have seen them change alot and implement stuff no one could have predicted.
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,799Registered Users

    @Ares354

    It's stated that she's the arch mage of the lore of death and that she's about as powerful as Gelt. She's not the grand master because she has no real interest in the machinations of the politics or administration of the empire/the college's day to day. Shes loyal to the college but she doesn't go there often because she's an introvert and prefers to do her own thing. It's a big part of her character.

    Also, Gelt is the supreme patriarch and he hates her so it's entirely possible that he is stopping her rising through the ranks because he doesn't want her to become more influential.

    "She's good in melee, how could you price that?" Umm...maybe her stats? And the fact that when lords get mounts, they usually get their stats buffed to be the same as that mount, with a little on top.

    She's not the Elector Countess but she does command the armies on the countesses behalf (because Wissenlands countess is useless)...how is this any different to Helborgs position as Reiksmarchal? Elsbeth would obviously go in Nuln where she lives so, despite the fact that she doesn't technically own the lands, she does have a defined territory that she would rule over (Wissenland).

    As I said to Vanilla Gorilla earlier: Lords don't get in simply because they're "supposed to be the guy in charge". Sure, Helborg is Reiksmarchal but in WH2 that doesn't mean very much at all. Most of that context is lost in translation and what we get is a guy with a cool mustache who buffs cav.

    Elsbeth is noted to have saved her people multiple times but it's mostly in secret. She wants to do good but doesn't want to be in the spotlight for it. She's killed notable Vampires and Greenskin hordes and she lead the armies of Nuln against a Chaos invasion (pretty sure she kills the leader of said invasion)

    Oh Helborg could come with a single RoR could he? wow no way! Which one?! And how does this make him a character more worthy than Markus, The Ulricans or the Wissenlanders? Unless he can bring more to the table he's still got some of the least potential out of that lot.

    And by the way, you asking "who has Elsbeth killed, how can you prove she's good" is histerical because Helborg is never stated to have done anything of specific importance. He just lead some campaigns we don't know about. In his fight with the grail knight it shows you that his strength is a façade: he's all bark, but when it comes to the crunch he's a coward and a cheat who has never been nocked on his ass before so he never realised it. Then in the end times he dies like nothing...what a hero...

    She is weaker then Grand Master, not because she has not political desire. Because if that is fact, why she try to rule Nuln in name of that countess.

    ANd what have Gelt to do with her no being over Grand Master of HER OWN order?

    Stats from TT are bs, see Slayer Kings, thank you.

    Hellborg can go outside Old Word and he is know from doing this ? do she ? nope. He have lore behind him to put him outside Old World, many player demand this. She start next to Reikland, which many people dont like.

    We get first Empire chracter who can duel lords and who is not glass canon, like Franz is.

    What Vamp she killed ? some random dude ? I can put bs liek you do, about random grail knight, or ronadom GS. You insult Helborg that he lost to random dude, and praise Elsbeth that she kiled no named Vamp and no name GS, well done. I bet, that random Grail Knight would kill both those enemies Elsbeth did, with no sweat.

    Helborg can come with Aldorf company of Honor, Carroburg Greatswordm, Reiksguard Inner Circle, and so on. He can come with plenty knight Order you cna choose from.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    @SiWI

    I think you misunderstood why people were saying Helborg is just another melee lord.

    It's not because other melee lords aren't allowed, it's because he's likely going to be stuck with a horse due to his character and thus will have less mount options and potential than the generic empire lords who have Griffin's.

    The other reason people say that is because he doesn't have anything really going for him aside from the possible implementation of the grandmaster and a potential start abroad. He's not got any special units going for him and doesn't inherently lend himself to new mechanics.

    Elsbeth on the other hand is very unique in multiple ways, her start lends itself to slot of mechanics and alot of units too.

    Same can be said of wulfhart and the ulricans
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 15,380Registered Users
    Forgeworld - Buy an overpriced, low quality Sue that you can only use if your opponent says you can today!
    RikRiorik said:

    I find it hard to get excited by any prospective Empire LL additions. Especially the likes of Helborg and Schwartzhelm. I don’t know there’s nothing special about them to me. Just a couple of dudes.

    I could get somewhat excited about the likes of Luthor Huss or Valten. Or Luthor Huss with a side dish of a quest to find Valten. Don’t even want Valten as his Mk2 or Mk3 variant. Just the blacksmith’s son with dual hammers that wiped out a Beastmen raiding party on his lonesomes would do just fine. The ther two were too ostentatious for my liking.

    I suppose that's the M.O of the Empire. Their LL's are predominantly a bit bland. Too many tall dudes on horses. Though what they really need is a new start position.

    I was thinking HB's best feature is that he can go anywhere. So he could be an interesting pick. Most likely he'd be on the edge of the Empire though.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 10,131Registered Users

    @SiWI


    "thats rich coming from you." I love how people like you always have to preface your counter points by establishing your opposition as a hypocrite or lier...you know...so you can attack the caricature of me you've got in your head instead of engage with me on equal footing.

    How exactly started your response to me?
    I mean it interesting to see your though process behind that opening explain... just don't assume its everyone elses as well.
    So your argument is that the content we get is a strict hierarchy. With the highest priorities being 8th edition, official, main line content at the top. And Forgeworld, minor factions and older editions bellow that? And you want me to point to an instance where CA has implemented Forgeworld stuff or older edition stuff instead of 8th edition, which you deem more important? (For arbitrary reasons)

    Well ok. How's about when CA implemented Norsca in the first game? Creating a unique roster that was either from Forgeworld or was completely made up (or partly made up by expanding a character or mentioned group into a full blown unit).

    To put it simple:
    opportunity.
    When Norsca was implemented CA had nothing to add to WH1 that wasn't either for another game, like Skaven or Forgeworld/old stuff/minor race.

    And in that case they chose Norsca.
    Same with Vampire pirates.

    Or how about when CA made the Vampire coast and were given permission from GW to literally make up half the roster, an entirely new character and turn Sartosa into vampires....there's also that...

    Then theirs the inclusion of Ghorst who has less lore than Nakai, yet there he is. Vlad should also be dead at this moment and I'm pretty sure he's not in 8th edition as a result.

    Ghorst isn't forgeworld and the reason they used him because they first LP was pretty stricly design after "Sigmas Blood" (if I remember the name right) and there was either Mannfred already in game or him.
    They chose him.

    And in a classic case of you, no Vlad was in the 8th edition in the armybook. Him being dead wasn't an issue for 6th edition and wasn't in 8th...

    So yeah...

    Also I love how you competently invented a new standard I supposedly have.
    My standard is "armybook before anything else" not "more lore" (thou things in the armybook tend to have more lore).

    We could go on like that if you want. The content isn't a strict hierarchy, CA has been given a fair amount of creative liberty since the first game did so well, and we have seen them change alot and implement stuff no one could have predicted.

    I'm afraid you would have to because I pretty much why your examples don't stick.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 10,131Registered Users

    @SiWI

    I think you misunderstood why people were saying Helborg is just another melee lord.

    It's not because other melee lords aren't allowed, it's because he's likely going to be stuck with a horse due to his character and thus will have less mount options and potential than the generic empire lords who have Griffin's.

    The other reason people say that is because he doesn't have anything really going for him aside from the possible implementation of the grandmaster and a potential start abroad. He's not got any special units going for him and doesn't inherently lend himself to new mechanics.

    Elsbeth on the other hand is very unique in multiple ways, her start lends itself to slot of mechanics and alot of units too.

    Same can be said of wulfhart and the ulricans

    well besides you could easily add mounts for him, demigriffons scream here, it doesn't change the fact that you compleltly ignore the context of my first comment in order to attack my comment.

    And unit wise, him being a grandtmaster you easily could put all the other knightly orders with him into the pack.

    Its not as if the rules which units come with who are very strict anyway. See dwarfs.

    Wulfhart has one generic and one ROR unit tied to him.
    Not much else.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 5,832Registered Users

    Forgeworld - Buy an overpriced, low quality Sue that you can only use if your opponent says you can today!

    RikRiorik said:

    I find it hard to get excited by any prospective Empire LL additions. Especially the likes of Helborg and Schwartzhelm. I don’t know there’s nothing special about them to me. Just a couple of dudes.

    I could get somewhat excited about the likes of Luthor Huss or Valten. Or Luthor Huss with a side dish of a quest to find Valten. Don’t even want Valten as his Mk2 or Mk3 variant. Just the blacksmith’s son with dual hammers that wiped out a Beastmen raiding party on his lonesomes would do just fine. The ther two were too ostentatious for my liking.

    I suppose that's the M.O of the Empire. Their LL's are predominantly a bit bland. Too many tall dudes on horses. Though what they really need is a new start position.

    I was thinking HB's best feature is that he can go anywhere. So he could be an interesting pick. Most likely he'd be on the edge of the Empire though.
    At least Boris and Middenland has the potential rivalry with Reikland and the Ulrican theme going for them.
    Lord of the Undermountain
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,247Registered Users
    @SiWI
    Yes it was Sigmars Blood as pretty much everything from the Empire-Vampire Count lord pack came from Sigmars blood (8th edition campaign pack I think) from Units to RoR.

    examples



    And for Vlad. The Vampire Counts have a way back from death via the Black Coach so resurrection is possible for them and if I recall if you didn't start with Vlad you had to raze or take Altdorf.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    @Ares354



    "She is weaker then Grand Master, not because she has not political desire. Because if that is fact, why she try to rule Nuln in name of that countess.

    ANd what have Gelt to do with her no being over Grand Master of HER OWN order? "

    The countess of nuln hates ruling. she assembled a council to rule in her stead and shes attempting to get Franz to break her and Nuln away from Wissenland entirely. Elsbeth is one of the people the countess has rule in her stead. Elsbeth takes control of the armies and plans the sratagies because the countess demands it, because the countess doenst want to.

    "She is one of the most powerful Amethyst wizards of the age, but one who will have little to do with the day to day machinations of the imperial college" this, and the rest of her character, is what makes me think shes like that...because it actually says it. even if we entertain the idea that shes not the best, why would that stop her inclusion? or make her a lesser choice. there is little distinction in WH2 between "one of the best" and "the Best", they get translated all the same.

    "Stats from TT are bs, see Slayer Kings, thank you."

    I agree, but then you are totally making claims with no basis, and you're shifting the goalposts

    "Hellborg can go outside Old Word and he is know from doing this ? do she ? nope. He have lore behind him to put him outside Old World, many player demand this. She start next to Reikland, which many people dont like."

    There is a misconception about Wissenland's start position. despite its proximity to Riekland: Wissenland has one of the best starts, if not the best start in the Empire, when you consider the access to different races, the options of what you can do and so forth. WIssenland has elements of both the Reikland and Averland start, but Wissenland also has more access to more factions early on: the option to turtle. Better access to the badlands (you can reach it from multiple directions). there are multiple ways you could take the campaign. A start abroad might be better in that regard, but then you have to consider the deficiencies elsewhere.

    "What Vamp she killed ? some random dude ? I can put bs liek you do, about random grail knight, or ronadom GS. You insult Helborg that he lost to random dude, and praise Elsbeth that she kiled no named Vamp and no name GS, well done. I bet, that random Grail Knight would kill both those enemies Elsbeth did, with no sweat. "

    Yeah that grail knight probably could because shes damaged by what Undead are damaged by. Im not saying shes amazing 1v1 in Melee.

    Look; ive been heavily researching loads of different characters, trying to find their lore so i can write it down and include it in a series im doing on missing units and characters. The reason im bringing this up is because ive been constantly reading through peoples lore on who they are and what they do and most characters of importance Kill randoms or save random places, not just elsbeth but people like Thanquol too.

    this is because obviously GW cant have them being famous for killing really important people, otherwise those other people wouldn't be playable characters. this is why most of the deaths happen in end times, because you cant kill off x important character and keep them in the game. Helborg is one of those characters who, despite the importance of his station, he doesnt really have any exploits of note that they go into detail about. this is really kind of strange and, in terms of sheer lore, it puts him on the lower end of the spectrum in terms of depth.

    im not going out of my way to insult him and i dont hate him. im simply trying to point out why i think he would be a lesser candidate and im trying to defend other characters because they seem to have more justification in more areas.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    edited August 18
    @SiWI

    "To put it simple:
    opportunity."

    Ok... you dont get to act like theirs a strict hierarchy that cannot be broken and then introduce the idea that its also fluid depending on what CA whats to do.

    I didnt invent new standards for you, i was trying to get to the bottom of what you meant. either you are saying that forgeworld isnt as valid as 8th edition and that all the stuff in 8th has to come first or your point is rendered moot because thats not true.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    edited August 18
    @Arthas_Menethil

    Im not arguing against the validity of bringing Vlad back, i was pointing out that i dont think hes in 8th edition and isnt alive when this was going on.

    Im fine with vlads inclusion but his inclusion shows a flaw in the idea that the content is coming in a strictly liner hierarchy.

    Edit: I just checked and i think he is there so disregard that point.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,247Registered Users

    @Arthas_Menethil

    Im not arguing against the validity of bringing Vlad back, i was pointing out that he isnt in 8th edition and isnt alive when this was going on.

    Im fine with vlads inclusion but his inclusion shows a flaw in the idea that the content is coming in a strictly liner hierarchy.

    He is in 8th edition though

    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    @Arthas_Menethil

    yeah sorry i just checked myself

    Disregard that point.
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,799Registered Users

    @Ares354



    "She is weaker then Grand Master, not because she has not political desire. Because if that is fact, why she try to rule Nuln in name of that countess.

    ANd what have Gelt to do with her no being over Grand Master of HER OWN order? "

    The countess of nuln hates ruling. she assembled a council to rule in her stead and shes attempting to get Franz to break her and Nuln away from Wissenland entirely. Elsbeth is one of the people the countess has rule in her stead. Elsbeth takes control of the armies and plans the sratagies because the countess demands it, because the countess doenst want to.

    "She is one of the most powerful Amethyst wizards of the age, but one who will have little to do with the day to day machinations of the imperial college" this, and the rest of her character, is what makes me think shes like that...because it actually says it. even if we entertain the idea that shes not the best, why would that stop her inclusion? or make her a lesser choice. there is little distinction in WH2 between "one of the best" and "the Best", they get translated all the same.

    "Stats from TT are bs, see Slayer Kings, thank you."

    I agree, but then you are totally making claims with no basis, and you're shifting the goalposts

    "Hellborg can go outside Old Word and he is know from doing this ? do she ? nope. He have lore behind him to put him outside Old World, many player demand this. She start next to Reikland, which many people dont like."

    There is a misconception about Wissenland's start position. despite its proximity to Riekland: Wissenland has one of the best starts, if not the best start in the Empire, when you consider the access to different races, the options of what you can do and so forth. WIssenland has elements of both the Reikland and Averland start, but Wissenland also has more access to more factions early on: the option to turtle. Better access to the badlands (you can reach it from multiple directions). there are multiple ways you could take the campaign. A start abroad might be better in that regard, but then you have to consider the deficiencies elsewhere.

    "What Vamp she killed ? some random dude ? I can put bs liek you do, about random grail knight, or ronadom GS. You insult Helborg that he lost to random dude, and praise Elsbeth that she kiled no named Vamp and no name GS, well done. I bet, that random Grail Knight would kill both those enemies Elsbeth did, with no sweat. "

    Yeah that grail knight probably could because shes damaged by what Undead are damaged by. Im not saying shes amazing 1v1 in Melee.

    Look; ive been heavily researching loads of different characters, trying to find their lore so i can write it down and include it in a series im doing on missing units and characters. The reason im bringing this up is because ive been constantly reading through peoples lore on who they are and what they do and most characters of importance Kill randoms or save random places, not just elsbeth but people like Thanquol too.

    this is because obviously GW cant have them being famous for killing really important people, otherwise those other people wouldn't be playable characters. this is why most of the deaths happen in end times, because you cant kill off x important character and keep them in the game. Helborg is one of those characters who, despite the importance of his station, he doesnt really have any exploits of note that they go into detail about. this is really kind of strange and, in terms of sheer lore, it puts him on the lower end of the spectrum in terms of depth.

    im not going out of my way to insult him and i dont hate him. im simply trying to point out why i think he would be a lesser candidate and im trying to defend other characters because they seem to have more justification in more areas.

    The countess seduced Franz to get her position.

    Helborg is one of the most powerfull warrior in Empire, second to Ludwig, and by far, he is better strategist then Elsept. Hardly he got position of Reikmarshal, which is LEADER of all Empire armies because he seduced Franz. He work for this hard.

    You dont want to include Helborg because he lost to old Grail Knight in duel. HE LOST to Grail Knight, uber human, best warrior from Bretonnia become ones, even better live very long to become hermits. That Grail Knight was better fighter then Alberic for sure.

    And why cant we make helborg AL duelist >? Empire dont have one.

    And main reason why I want him, its because he can star outside Old World. And he is new Lord type. And he is AB chracter which put him in my mind way over other chracters, same goes for Marius.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    @Ares354

    "The countess seduced Franz to get her position."

    yes, and? how does that Affect Elsbeth or Jubal Falk? this strengthens my position because its a part of how she doesn't want to rule.

    "Helborg is one of the most powerfull warrior in Empire, second to Ludwig, and by far, he is better strategist then Elsept. Hardly he got position of Reikmarshal, which is LEADER of all Empire armies because he seduced Franz. He work for this hard. "

    Like i said before: How much of that is going to be lost in translation and where is your proof? we dont know the context to any of Helborg's exploits.

    You are now, for some reason, using Von Liebwitz character flaws against von Draken. they are two totally different people.

    "You dont want to include Helborg because he lost to old Grail Knight in duel. HE LOST to Grail Knight, uber human, best warrior from Bretonnia become ones, even better live very long to become hermits. That Grail Knight was better fighter then Alberic for sure."

    I dont want to include Helborg because hes a worse option due to the lack of units and mechanics that are conducive with his inclusion. This is an issue ive asked you to address but you still havent. Hes a guy on horseback (making him potentially worse than the generic lords) he buffs horses...thats all we know about him. if Hes not in Reikland then we are stepping into uncharted terratory and any mechanics he might have would have to be completely made up or drawn from elsewhere.

    "And main reason why I want him, its because he can star outside Old World. And he is new Lord type. "

    Thats fair. His potential start abroad is decent but thats kind of the only thing he has going for him.

    "And he is AB chracter which put him in my mind way over other chracters, same goes for Marius."

    Elsbeth is an AB character and remember: the game is not the boardgame, the game is attempting to recreate the lore not the TT.

  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,799Registered Users

    @Ares354

    "The countess seduced Franz to get her position."

    yes, and? how does that Affect Elsbeth or Jubal Falk? this strengthens my position because its a part of how she doesn't want to rule.

    "Helborg is one of the most powerfull warrior in Empire, second to Ludwig, and by far, he is better strategist then Elsept. Hardly he got position of Reikmarshal, which is LEADER of all Empire armies because he seduced Franz. He work for this hard. "

    Like i said before: How much of that is going to be lost in translation and where is your proof? we dont know the context to any of Helborg's exploits.

    You are now, for some reason, using Von Liebwitz character flaws against von Draken. they are two totally different people.

    "You dont want to include Helborg because he lost to old Grail Knight in duel. HE LOST to Grail Knight, uber human, best warrior from Bretonnia become ones, even better live very long to become hermits. That Grail Knight was better fighter then Alberic for sure."

    I dont want to include Helborg because hes a worse option due to the lack of units and mechanics that are conducive with his inclusion. This is an issue ive asked you to address but you still havent. Hes a guy on horseback (making him potentially worse than the generic lords) he buffs horses...thats all we know about him. if Hes not in Reikland then we are stepping into uncharted terratory and any mechanics he might have would have to be completely made up or drawn from elsewhere.

    "And main reason why I want him, its because he can star outside Old World. And he is new Lord type. "

    Thats fair. His potential start abroad is decent but thats kind of the only thing he has going for him.

    "And he is AB chracter which put him in my mind way over other chracters, same goes for Marius."

    Elsbeth is an AB character and remember: the game is not the boardgame, the game is attempting to recreate the lore not the TT.

    AB 8th edition dont have some Jubal Falk and Elsbeth, but has Markus Wulfharth, Marius Leitdorf and Kurt Helborg with Luthor Huss.

    And those gentlemans have priority over Lady Death from Forge World and tamurkhan book.

    And if CA is willing to do so, they can add new Mechanic to Empire with eaz. Elsbeth dont bring new mechanic at all
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    @SiWI
    @Ares354

    Let me be clear and say i think Helborg is unfortunetly really likely btw. but i think thats for all the wrong reasons.

    SiWI Mentioned that he could potentially get some of the Knightly orders, which is the closest thing to an actual tangible unit you've come up with so far. The problem is: if we let him get the Knightly orders, we would then be taking away what Unique units the other provinces have so we could justify Helborg's inclusion.

    If we gave him the Knights of Morr, Knights Griffin, Knights of the Black Bear or any of the other province specific ones then we might as well kiss goodbye the prospect of getting those provinces with their unique units, because the knightly orders are one of the very few units that many provinces have and you would be sacrificing a more unique Ostermark, Averland, Talabecland etc for the sake of Including Helborg.

    Also: many of the Knightly orders kind of blend together and if you just gave him horses then that might be an issue because now the roster (particularly his) is bloated in just one direction. where as: Ulric, Ostermark and Wissenland all have unique units from multiple parts of the roster, leading to a more diverse playstyle and a more expanded Empire roster overall.
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,799Registered Users

    @SiWI
    @Ares354

    Let me be clear and say i think Helborg is unfortunetly really likely btw. but i think thats for all the wrong reasons.

    SiWI Mentioned that he could potentially get some of the Knightly orders, which is the closest thing to an actual tangible unit you've come up with so far. The problem is: if we let him get the Knightly orders, we would then be taking away what Unique units the other provinces have so we could justify Helborg's inclusion.

    If we gave him the Knights of Morr, Knights Griffin, Knights of the Black Bear or any of the other province specific ones then we might as well kiss goodbye the prospect of getting those provinces with their unique units, because the knightly orders are one of the very few units that many provinces have and you would be sacrificing a more unique Ostermark, Averland, Talabecland etc for the sake of Including Helborg.

    Also: many of the Knightly orders kind of blend together and if you just gave him horses then that might be an issue because now the roster (particularly his) is bloated in just one direction. where as: Ulric, Ostermark and Wissenland all have unique units from multiple parts of the roster, leading to a more diverse playstyle and a more expanded Empire roster overall.

    Let be clear with one thing;

    If CA will do province recruitment, then I would agree. IF CA will do their Empire great rework and will add subfaction based on province, then I agree.

    ^^But non of those thing happen to other faction that got rework, so its safe to assume, Empire wont get new units, so both Elsepth and Helborg wont bring any.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    edited August 18
    @Ares354

    "AB 8th edition dont have some Jubal Falk and Elsbeth, but has Markus Wulfharth, Marius Leitdorf and Kurt Helborg with Luthor Huss. "

    and this matters because...? Elsbeth has a model, rules, shes in the army book, shes official and has more lore and personality than at least 3 of the competition.

    Forgeworld has been used before and it will 100% be used frequently going forward. Some of the most unique and potentially fun units and even faction exist in Forgeworld.

    "And if CA is willing to do so, they can add new Mechanic to Empire with eaz. Elsbeth dont bring new mechanic at all"

    yet again you are making statements without any actual proof. you want to know what potential Wissenland has? maybe have a read through this:

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/247969/a-case-for-a-wissenland-dlc-faction/p1

    Elsbeth/Jubal and nuln objectively bring more to the table than almost all the other empire characters who arent in yet. youve still given me no suggestions or hard evidence to prove how good helborg could be or show how Elsbeth is lacking. no mention of units, Mechanics, special buildings, potential buffs or faction traits. nada.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    edited August 18
    "If CA will do province recruitment, then I would agree. IF CA will do their Empire great rework and will add subfaction based on province, then I agree.

    But non of those thing happen to other faction that got rework, so its safe to assume, Empire wont get new units, so both Elsepth and Helborg wont bring any."

    we know nothing about the empire rework so again you are making assertions based nothing: no Quotes, sources or rationale.

    Im not talking about a system where the empire has unique recruitment for every province, im talking about making other provinces playable. if you took the knightly orders from Averland or Ostermark then those factions are less likely to see the light of day which would be unfortunate. you would be sacrificing other characters, start positions and potential unique playthrough's in an attempt to make Helborg viable. (that fact in itself points out how much work you have to do to make him seem like more than a random FLC inclusion)
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,799Registered Users

    @Ares354

    "AB 8th edition dont have some Jubal Falk and Elsbeth, but has Markus Wulfharth, Marius Leitdorf and Kurt Helborg with Luthor Huss. "

    and this matters because...? Elsbeth has a model, rules, shes in the army book, shes official and has more lore and personality than at least 3 of the competition.

    Forgeworld has been used before and it will 100% be used frequently going forward. Some of the most unique and potentially fun units and even faction exist in Forgeworld.

    "And if CA is willing to do so, they can add new Mechanic to Empire with eaz. Elsbeth dont bring new mechanic at all"

    yet again you are making statements without any actual proof. you want to know what potential Wissenland has? maybe have a read through this:

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/247969/a-case-for-a-wissenland-dlc-faction/p1

    Elsbeth/Jubal and nuln objectively bring more to the table than almost all the other empire characters who arent in yet. youve still given me no suggestions or hard evidence to prove how good helborg could be or show how Elsbeth is lacking. no mention of units, Mechanics, special buildings, potential buffs or faction traits. nada.

    Because for ME, AB is always ahead of any other source, and always will be. Marius too have model, rules, and he bring new mechanic, and he start even in better position then Wissenland.

    Forgeworld units are one thing, forgeword Lord are different. How many good Forge World Lord you have ?!

    I dont care about potential of Wissenland, I do care about Lord starting position that is not in Old World, which wissenland dont bring to table.

    You want person who bring most to table, add Valten then. And give him mechanic to UNITE Empire to push chaos scum out of the Empire.

    I do care about Helborg only because I want him to start ouside Old World. If you think CA will give you Lady Death new units then dream on. What kind of new mechanic she will give us ? I wont read you post in another topic.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 997Registered Users
    edited August 19
    "Because for ME, AB is always ahead of any other source, and always will be. Marius too have model, rules, and he bring new mechanic, and he start even in better position then Wissenland."

    Nooooooo he does not! I've been over this extensively elsewhere. Marius's position isnt unique and is worse than Wissenland because he has less options, less access, less of a lore basis to Live in mountainous regions. His campaign would be more liner and would have to be tackled in a certain order.

    "I dont care about potential of Wissenland, I do care about Lord starting position that is not in Old World, which wissenland dont bring to table. "

    Your personal feelings on this dont make one faction more valid than another.

    "You want person who bring most to table, add Valten then. And give him mechanic to UNITE Empire to push chaos scum out of the Empire. "

    Ok. Valten. So explain what exactly he would do and how? what units, What mechanics. (also hes storm of chaos)

    "I do care about Helborg only because I want him to start ouside Old World. If you think CA will give you Lady Death new units then dream on. What kind of new mechanic she will give us ? I wont read you post in another topic."

    - Wissenland Could offer a unique starting position with the largest number of different races in the facinity.

    - The nuln gunnery school could work like a Workshop similar to Ikit.

    - the Elector countess could be a feature of the campaign: since shes useless but still the figurehead, she could act as a quest giver or a mechanic relating to diplomacy and public order. maybe she falls out with an elector count at one of her lavish parties so now you have -relations with them. maybe you have to do what she wants you too or she declares you a rogue agent and you suffer -public order.

    - because of what their province is like, they should be aclimatized to mountainous regions, which would allow for you to inhabit the Vaults and other dwarf provinces.

    - they have something of a cold sholder relationship to the dwarfs so at the start of your campaign you could be faced with a dilemma that makes you choose between befriending them or starting down the war path.

    - because Nuln is where all of the guns come from (like all of them) Wissenland could be given exclusive access to the RoR artillery and maybe they are unlocked in the workshop. you could also have some mechanic where you barter with or boycott other provinces of the empire. maybe they only get special artillery units if they're on good terms with you.

    - they are said to use tunnels to travel through the mountains to tillea so you could implement that tunnel into the game for them so they can jump through those mountains in a shorter time. you could also give them some buffs to movement range in Mountainous regions or limited use of underways in certain lore friendly areas like the vaults.

    those are some of the possibilities. thats not even going over how they would buff ranged units and what units they could include/why they could be cool and unique. or mechanics specific to the lords of Elsbeth and Jubal themselves (or the fact that they also have the Master engineers and Theodoric Bruckner)
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 18,323Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Be careful in your counterpoint responses folks. Personal assessments of other folks making comments on subject are not permitted.

    Thanks.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
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