Daemons of Chaos too expensive to make to be core race?

SakuraHeinz

I just thought about how many charlemanges CA needs to spent on a faction, that consist of multiple races with completely unique body models, skeletons textures and animations for their bizarre bodys.

And Im starting to doubt they are ingame from the beginning if we dont get monogods, maybe only as NPC faction with a few daemons.

I mean all their big guys are at least as detailed as the jabberslythe with multiple limbs and wings.

What do you guys think?

Commissar_G#7535

When they can hold back an entire gods section of the roster for a lord pack? Not at all.

rafantomas

I think they can, that's their challenge for WH3 besides enlarging the campaign map for Cathay to appear on ME

They can reuse a lot of monsters skeletons and change them a bit. Its their job to create new things if they want to sell WH3 as a standalone product.

#902441

I expect a lot of the more outre stuff will be held back for multiple Lord Packs. There's not really much potential for Race Packs in Game 3 after all.

Plus there's some stuff that can be reused. Some of the models for N'Kari, who is pretty much guaranteed to be in Game 3, look like they could easily be the basis for a Ghorghon.

Fossoway

I've always thought that the Daemons makes more sense as a DLC race. Think about it:
- 4 gods = 4 subfactions
- perfect for being released with beastmen/WoC rework
- they should have a unique end game mechanic (the Great Game)
- they don't have to be on the campaign map from day 1, unlike the other races

If we get them as a base race, that means 2 of the gods won't have a presence in the game at launch. That would be kinda disappointing.

If CA goes that route, Cathay or the Dogs of War (more likely the latter) could take their spot as a base race.

SakuraHeinz

Fossoway said:

I've always thought that the Daemons makes more sense as a DLC race. Think about it:
- 4 gods = 4 subfactions
- perfect for being released with beastmen/WoC rework
- they should have a unique end game mechanic (the Great Game)
- they don't have to be on the campaign map from day 1, unlike the other races

If we get them as a base race, that means 2 of the gods won't have a presence in the game at launch. That would be kinda disappointing.

If CA goes that route, Cathay or the Dogs of War (more likely the latter) could take their spot as a base race.

yes, I really think from a money perspective it would be smart to go for monogods as DLC one after another, and leave the map completely to chaos dwarfs,ogres,Kislev and other already made races as NPC enemies.

@Commissar_G I dont mind this idea but a large part of the fanbase would be enraged even after one of the gods doesnt have at least one of their top tier units in the united daemons list.

Captain_Rex#1635

Actually wouldn’t mind Deamons as DLC if that would mean more humans as core races.
I’m more interested in DoW and Kislev than in Deamons. Would even prefer Cathay over Deamons.

But I can already see all the chaos fanboys raging if that would happen 😂

Federykx99

Thing is demons are almost the perfect enemy. Incredibly powerful and evil looking entities with endless numbers.

They're a very recognizable opponent and will appeal to most new players.

A trailer with demons vs Kislev or, though unlikely, Demons vs Cathay would probably look very good to the general audience.

Goatforce#6625

I don't see an 8th edition armybook race being excluded from the main lineup of game 3, especially since this race is the most important of the armybook races left in terms of the lore.

Vhaegrant

Until you know the campaign mechanic that will underlay game 3 aren't any discussions about factions a bit redundant, especially with regard to monogods?

rafantomas

Ogres MUST BE core race for game WH3. They are not even compleetely evil, they don’t like chaos either.

Goatforce#6625

Ingr8 said:

I would have thought that if the Ogre Kingdoms were included it would be ridiculous to have two races likely to be dominated by large units. It is already bad enough when the LM / TK field monster heavy armies. I do think that from a balance point of view they may need to think carefully about the factions and units they introduce in game 3.

But there is a pretty big difference between OKs and the example you gave. TK and LM using monster-heavy armies is a spam of elite (or at least high tier) creatures, OKs are a faction built and balanced around fielding mostly large units. I imagine it will be a pain to balance properly but a army dominated by lower tier ogres would not be nearly as much of a pain as an army of Sphynxes or Carnos.

#326161

SakuraHeinz said:

I just thought about how many charlemanges CA needs to spent on a faction, that consist of multiple races with completely unique body models, skeletons textures and animations for their bizarre bodys.

And Im starting to doubt they are ingame from the beginning if we dont get monogods, maybe only as NPC faction with a few daemons.

I mean all their big guys are at least as detailed as the jabberslythe with multiple limbs and wings.

What do you guys think?

I hope they won't be core and Chaos Warriors gets an overhaul with some new lords/hero's/units,

Then bring them as a DLC as mono gods and do them properly, it will be the most expansive DLC in the game.

#326161

Ingr8 said:

I would have thought that if the Ogre Kingdoms were included it would be ridiculous to have two races likely to be dominated by large units. It is already bad enough when the LM / TK field monster heavy armies. I do think that from a balance point of view they may need to think carefully about the factions and units they introduce in game 3.

Are u kidding? they have lots of small units as well. and you are talking Two out of 15 factions. There are plenty of Races/Factions left that don't have that.
Ogres are the only faction with mostly big units and they have disadvantages like numbers and speed.

SakuraHeinz

Vhaegrant said:

Until you know the campaign mechanic that will underlay game 3 aren't any discussions about factions a bit redundant, especially with regard to monogods?

Im talking about the cost to create all the models, if we get monogods there would be no problem because they can safe all the money from chaos dwarfs and ogres and add them in race packs later adding the dark lands.

Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

CA has a huge library of Skeletons now, and a lot of experience. The potential races of game 3 are predominantly cheaper to make than game 1 or 2. Kislev, Chaos Dwarfs, Ogres, Cathay, Dogs of War, they're all easy to do. Even if DoC is expensive it's one expensive race next to three expensive ones.

Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

SakuraHeinz said:

Vhaegrant said:

Until you know the campaign mechanic that will underlay game 3 aren't any discussions about factions a bit redundant, especially with regard to monogods?

Im talking about the cost to create all the models, if we get monogods there would be no problem because they can safe all the money from chaos dwarfs and ogres and add them in race packs later adding the dark lands.

Because a Monogod game wouldn't sell much the budget would likely be low. It'd probably be comparable to a Saga game whereas we're getting a full budget game for TWW3.

With DLC to fill in the gaps and a small Demon roster to begin with I wouldn't worry about their cost.

#21546

Lizardmen were the most expensive facction to make, yet they were made. There is no reasons they wont include DoC as they said every faction thats had an army book will be in the game

SiWI#8629

I think that not only would LP compensate, but also who is suppose to replace DoC as Core race?

we kinda need to stretch even WITH DoC to get to 4 races...

straight Armybook races are only Orges and well DoC
Chaos Dwarfs have a Forgewolrd armybook and have been considered "confirmed" since the 16 races comments (which btw is outdated because we got 2 they didn't count in).

But thats just 3.

Of course you can build air castle where Nippon, Cathy and Ind make up the now missing core slot but I don't find those 3 likely...

Bonutz#3949

I’m guessing CA is going to go a similar route with how they’ve done every other game thus far. Only make half of the roster for each race with 2 LL’s and then save the rest of the roster and LL’s for lord packs. Seems like the most efficient way to do it in regards to time and money.

As far as how expensive DoC would be to make? No clue. Could be more expensive then your average race but we also don’t know what CA’s budget is for WH3.

Draxynnic#3149

I've seen this argument made before...

I think it exaggerates how difficult DoC will be to make. Not to say it won't be - it may well be the most expensive single race - but there are units which can share skeletons (including skeletons that have already been made). I don't think we're looking at blowing the animation budget when most of the likely candidates for other races are all likely to be fairly cheap (ogres, for instance, can be done with a handful of skeletons, most of which already exist, and the skeleton for some of their mounts might be able to be shared with Juggernauts).

As a core race, too, it's practically guaranteed that some units will be held back for DLC, and I wouldn't put it past CA to decide which to hold back based on economics.

Infinite_Maw

Perhaps a tiny bit more complicated than lizardmen or vampire coast. You will have units which share models such as

• Blue Horrors and Pink Horrors
  
• Bloodletters and Khorne Heralds etc
  
• Chaos Warhounds (wolves) and flesh hound
  

Still new skeletons will have to be made, especially for all the infantry for the four ruinous powers. The same goes for all their monters units too.

Chaos Dwarfs and maybe Kislev are going to be the factions where CA can reuse a lot of existings skeletons and animations.

General_Hijalti#1213

Fossoway said:

I've always thought that the Daemons makes more sense as a DLC race. Think about it:
- 4 gods = 4 subfactions
- perfect for being released with beastmen/WoC rework
- they should have a unique end game mechanic (the Great Game)
- they don't have to be on the campaign map from day 1, unlike the other races

If we get them as a base race, that means 2 of the gods won't have a presence in the game at launch. That would be kinda disappointing.

If CA goes that route, Cathay or the Dogs of War (more likely the latter) could take their spot as a base race.

If we don't get chaos as a base race again CA will be attacked by a mob

Draxynnic#3149

Infinite_Maw said:

Perhaps a tiny bit more complicated than lizardmen or vampire coast. You will have units which share models such as

• Blue Horrors and Pink Horrors
  
• Bloodletters and Khorne Heralds etc
  
• Chaos Warhounds (wolves) and flesh hound
  

Still new skeletons will have to be made, especially for all the infantry for the four ruinous powers. The same goes for all their monters units too.

Chaos Dwarfs and maybe Kislev are going to be the factions where CA can reuse a lot of existings skeletons and animations.

Unless they use the 6E sculpts, Flesh Hounds are probably closer to Salamanders.

Neodeinos#5871

Wouldn't mind the DoC as a DLC honestly, at least we'd have all the 4 gods, no need to wait for your favourite in the lord pack, if he is not in the core factions. But I don't think it would be a good thing to do for a game focused on Chaos, I suppose a lot of people wouldn't want to wait for them.

xBlood_Raven#5120

Daemons of Chaos should be more complex than Ogre Kingdoms or Chaos Dwarfs but definitely doable as a core for Game 3. Daemons of Chaos, Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos Dwarfs must be in the game at launch-they are the three last major races and so deserve the spotlight for waiting so long.

I get the thread though in terms of what units for Daemons of Chaos will not be in at launch. I can guess Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos Dwarfs but Daemons of Chaos depend completely on what DOC LLs we get on launch (I'll guess Skarbrand and Kairos Fateweaver for the Pure Melee and Pure Magic).

ramazon7

I personally hoped they would release TWW3 with two Chaos factions (like Khorne and Tzeentch, as they reflect this warrior and mage lord system they followed in TWW2. Khorne would also sell the base game nicely). On top of that Kislev and then either Ogres or Chaos Dwarves. Kislev should make it as a base faction, because as milkandcookies put it and I agree, some folks will need their "good guys". Empire was most popular faction in TWW1, and the High Elves were in TWW2. Locking Kislev behind a pre-purchase or postponing untill it can be added as DLC would be a mistake.

Wyvax#7456

Let's look at the roster first and guesstimate their relative difficulty to create. First off Chaos Furies would require a new model, though they aren't exactly spectacular being very similar to the stereotypical gargoyle shape. Of the four basic infantry, I doubt that we won't get all of them on release. Bloodletters would require a new model but have a lot of similarities to both gors and Saurus in posture and shape, so I wouldn't expect to much effort to create them. Pink Horrors will require an entirely new rig no doubt, as will Flamers. Nurglings might never come sadly, due to being a swarm unit. Plaguebearers are the easiest of the bunch as their physique is nearly identical to the giants we currently have in game: tall, lumpy head, potbelly and flabby but muscular limbs, even holding a single weapon in one hand, the skeleton can translate 1-to-1 here. Daemonettes have half of the work done in the DE female units. As for the cavalry units, both Bloodcrushers and Seekers of Slaanesh require new models, but they can be implemented to update WoC in Skullcrushehrs and Hellstriders as well so are definitely worth the effort. Blood Thrones and Skull Cannons are nearly identical, so are basically a two-for-one model. Screamers require a new model but have a real world animal for reference (rays), burning Chariots of Tzeentch are just Screamers+Flamer with the same mechanics that the Lothern Skycutter would bring (which is a point to the latter's inclusion in a LP I might add). The two chariots of Slaanesh are both another in a long line of fancy carts that CA has designed for the game and not exactly a challenge I imagine. Plague Drones will require new models completely. Of the various beasties left, Flesh Hounds are another warhound unit, perhaps with Salamander features. Beasts of Nurgle and Fiends of Slaanesh will both need new models and Charlemagnes, but after the HP Abomination, that's no issue. Soul Grinders will either be cut or more likely given a redesign to blend in with the rest of the roster, if so they will definitely be the centerpiece unit. I suspect that Daemon Princes will be available on launch as will most if not all of the Heralds as hero choices.

So which aspects are we likely to get on launch? Well N'kari has been heavily hinted which points to him and a Slaanesh theme being in the base game. We already have a Lord of Change model, so I'd expect Kairos Fateweaver to be the FLC as he'd simply require new assets and a dual head model, rather than a whole new rig. That leaves a Nurgle theme and LL or Khorne theme and LL for the base game and DLC, of those Khorne is the more stereotypical demonic flavor and also has a rivalry with Slaanesh so I see Skarbrand being one of the base game lords. Nurgle also has a strong following, which makes him a good candidate for DLC, introducing Ku'gath Plaguefather.


So I expect such (Not including the doubtlessly incoming variants or ferals):
Legendary Lords: Skarbrand the Exiled One and N'Kari
Generic Lords: Daemon Prince (all four god variants), Bloodthirster and Keeper of Secrets
Heroes: Herald of Khorne and Herald of Slaanesh
Infantry: Chaos Furies, Bloodletters, Pink Horrors, Blue Horrors, Flamers, Daemonettes and Plaguebearers
Cavalry and Chariots/War Engines: Bloodcrushers of Khorne, Blood Thrones of Khorne, Skull Cannons of Khorne, Burning Chariot of Tzeentch, Seekers of Slaanesh, Seeker Chariots of Slaanesh and Hellflayers of Slaanesh
Monsters and Beasts: Flesh Hounds, Screamers, Fiends of Slaanesh and Soul Grinders

DLC: Nurgle Themed
Legendary Lord: Ku'Gath Plaguefather
Generic Lord: Great Unclean One
Heroe: Herald of Nurgle
Infantry: Nurglings (if they can get them to work)
Cav: Plague Drones
Monsters: Beasts of Nurgle

FLC: Tzeentch themed
LL: Kairos Fateweaver
Generic Lord: Lord of Change
Hero: Herald of Tzeentch

Might not be exactly like this, but I think this general idea is most likely. Given the amount of work that's already done for Kislev and Chaos Dwarfs (assuming it's them) that's just more budget room for the DoC. As an aside I just thought of, I think a mechanic that makes greater daemons recruitable like a Slann is spot on, the one catch being if you only get the same type of daemon as your faction's LL is, though your generic recruitable lords (daemon princes) shouldn't have this restriction.

Goatforce#6625

Wyvax said:

Let's look at the roster first and guesstimate their relative difficulty to create. First off Chaos Furies would require a new model, though they aren't exactly spectacular being very similar to the stereotypical gargoyle shape. Of the four basic infantry, I doubt that we won't get all of them on release. Bloodletters would require a new model but have a lot of similarities to both gors and Saurus in posture and shape, so I wouldn't expect to much effort to create them. Pink Horrors will require an entirely new rig no doubt, as will Flamers. Nurglings might never come sadly, due to being a swarm unit. Plaguebearers are the easiest of the bunch as their physique is nearly identical to the giants we currently have in game: tall, lumpy head, potbelly and flabby but muscular limbs, even holding a single weapon in one hand, the skeleton can translate 1-to-1 here. Daemonettes have half of the work done in the DE female units. As for the cavalry units, both Bloodcrushers and Seekers of Slaanesh require new models, but they can be implemented to update WoC in Skullcrushehrs and Hellstriders as well so are definitely worth the effort. Blood Thrones and Skull Cannons are nearly identical, so are basically a two-for-one model. Screamers require a new model but have a real world animal for reference (rays), burning Chariots of Tzeentch are just Screamers+Flamer with the same mechanics that the Lothern Skycutter would bring (which is a point to the latter's inclusion in a LP I might add). The two chariots of Slaanesh are both another in a long line of fancy carts that CA has designed for the game and not exactly a challenge I imagine. Plague Drones will require new models completely. Of the various beasties left, Flesh Hounds are another warhound unit, perhaps with Salamander features. Beasts of Nurgle and Fiends of Slaanesh will both need new models and Charlemagnes, but after the HP Abomination, that's no issue. Soul Grinders will either be cut or more likely given a redesign to blend in with the rest of the roster, if so they will definitely be the centerpiece unit. I suspect that Daemon Princes will be available on launch as will most if not all of the Heralds as hero choices.

So which aspects are we likely to get on launch? Well N'kari has been heavily hinted which points to him and a Slaanesh theme being in the base game. We already have a Lord of Change model, so I'd expect Kairos Fateweaver to be the FLC as he'd simply require new assets and a dual head model, rather than a whole new rig. That leaves a Nurgle theme and LL or Khorne theme and LL for the base game and DLC, of those Khorne is the more stereotypical demonic flavor and also has a rivalry with Slaanesh so I see Skarbrand being one of the base game lords. Nurgle also has a strong following, which makes him a good candidate for DLC, introducing Ku'gath Plaguefather.


So I expect such (Not including the doubtlessly incoming variants or ferals):
Legendary Lords: Skarbrand the Exiled One and N'Kari
Generic Lords: Daemon Prince (all four god variants), Bloodthirster and Keeper of Secrets
Heroes: Herald of Khorne and Herald of Slaanesh
Infantry: Chaos Furies, Bloodletters, Pink Horrors, Blue Horrors, Flamers, Daemonettes and Plaguebearers
Cavalry and Chariots/War Engines: Bloodcrushers of Khorne, Blood Thrones of Khorne, Skull Cannons of Khorne, Burning Chariot of Tzeentch, Seekers of Slaanesh, Seeker Chariots of Slaanesh and Hellflayers of Slaanesh
Monsters and Beasts: Flesh Hounds, Screamers, Fiends of Slaanesh and Soul Grinders

DLC: Nurgle Themed
Legendary Lord: Ku'Gath Plaguefather
Generic Lord: Great Unclean One
Heroe: Herald of Nurgle
Infantry: Nurglings (if they can get them to work)
Cav: Plague Drones
Monsters: Beasts of Nurgle

FLC: Tzeentch themed
LL: Kairos Fateweaver
Generic Lord: Lord of Change
Hero: Herald of Tzeentch

Might not be exactly like this, but I think this general idea is most likely. Given the amount of work that's already done for Kislev and Chaos Dwarfs (assuming it's them) that's just more budget room for the DoC. As an aside I just thought of, I think a mechanic that makes greater daemons recruitable like a Slann is spot on, the one catch being if you only get the same type of daemon as your faction's LL is, though your generic recruitable lords (daemon princes) shouldn't have this restriction.

Think that is well reasoned, would tend to agree - however think the LoC and Herald of Tzeentch will probably be base-roster (as you said we already have LoC model) with only Kairos as FLC, also wouldn't be suprised if Herald of Nurgle is base, as we tend to get only 1 character per LP. But yeah otherwise this seems likely - though it is sad to think we may not see Great Unclean Ones waddling through hapless infantry for 6 months to a year after WH3 launch!

It has been said already but I don't think Daemons present that much of an issue; they will be a damn hard roster to make for sure, however Kislev and CDs will probably be fairly easy as these things go, and OKs not too bad either. Not like game 2 where you had both the LM and Skaven which had tons of unique models, as well as stuff like the Hydra.

Draxynnic#3149

Furies can probably share a rig with one of the winged Greater Demons. Steeds of Slaanesh would be pretty much Cold Ones with the arms removed and changing the head from jaws to a long tongue, while Juggernauts have a similar body shape (heavily muscled, high shoulders, low hindquarters) to many ogre warbeasts.

Given that there's already a Lord of Change model ingame, I would be really surprised if they left it out of the original release. There's also an element to which Tzeentch was focused on more than the other gods in the first game, and Slaanesh in the second: so if previous focus is an indicator of future plans, then Tzeentch and Slaanesh are probably the most likely candidates.

Personally, if I was CA, I'd probably make the original release include Be'lakor for an Undivided option, serving as a compromise choice for players who don't get their preferred god out the gate. They seem to be willing to go to five LLs for core factions now based on the lordpacks yet to come, so they can have Be'lakor as an initial option while still ultimately having all four primary gods represented.