Dogs of War and the Southern Realms Should Be Separate Things

SeanJeanquoi

Introduction

I'm working on a large post where I cover this in full and Create a visual guide for the units we could see in a DoW / Southern Realms DLC in the future, but I just wanted to get this idea out there for now.

The Southern Realms (Tilea, Estalia and the Border Princes) are a collection of human city states, whose aesthetics are based on Renaissance Italy, ancient Greece and the Spanish Conquistadors. They do have units of their own to draw from, but they were never the main focus of the region; that right was reserved for the Dogs of War mercenary armies (again, like Renaissance Italy).

Some people would like the Southern Realms faction to be bundled together by a hodgepodge of units from all over the Warhammer world but I think that would be a complete mess and a waste of their unique aesthetic.

Yes: Dogs of War mercenaries are important to the region. Vital even! however I think the Two should be separated if CA ever Decides to bring them to life.

Dogs of War already have a perfect, in game representation in the Rogue armies (the ones in red). Some of them are even named after famous Dogs of War like "Mengil's Manflayers"

I Believe that to Maximise the potential of these factions and for CA to get the most content out of it from a business perspective, the Southern Realms and Dogs of War should be split like this:

Dogs of War

- the Rogue armies that already exist could have their unit rosters replaced with the Dogs of War Mercenary roster. Mercenary units from every race would be available to them (including Southern Realms local Dogs of War/RoR such as Brazinga's Besiegers, Ricco's Republican Guard, etc)

- A few of the Rogue armies could be made playable, with Mengil Manhide (DE), Asarnil the Dragon Lord (HE), Glogfag the Ogre and so on being Legendary lords for these armies.

- Dogs of War armies could have limited access to the rosters of their parent faction (for example: Mengil is a Dark Elf, he could have limited access to Dark Elf units like corsairs)

- this could offer a unique nomadic playstyle with units from most of the other factions all bundled into one.

- For Southern Realm states, these Rogue 'Dogs of War' armies could work like the Master Hunter characters for Wulfhart in the New DLC: the armies of Mengil, Asarnil and so on, roam around the map and the Southern Realms factions can find and Recruit them (for an Exorbitant fee) if they meet a certain criteria in their campaign.

Southern Realms

- These factions have their own core roster that do not include other races like Norsca, Ogres etc (although Halfling's should be in their core roster). This unique Roster is made up from the units we know of from the 4th/5th edition DoW army books, some just from the lore, conversions from their Regiments of renown (like the Alcatani Fellowship) and some made up by CA based on their themes.

- even with some CA additions to the Southern Realms roster, it will still have massive holes in it...and that's the point, that is where the Dogs of War and the Outlaws and Pirates come in.

Outlaws and Pirates in Southern Realms

the Southern Realms have a massive crime/Pirate element to their lands and they often have to rely on these unsavoury characters just as they do with the Mercenaries. therefore: Pirates and outlaws could be their own element within the southern realms factions, with units like bandits, Slayer Pirates and heroes like Bounty Hunters and Assassins.

- Outlaws and Pirates could be recruited like mercenaries or have their own Recruitment buildings (like the Sake Den from Shogun 2) and they don't gel well with the core SR roster.

- among the outlaw / Pirate roster is where the Ogre Pirates, Noscan Reavers and other units from other races reside.

- these units and heroes are also available to Sartosa (and any other future pirate lords) as well as the DoW Rogue Armies. (where they are more loyal, as they gel better among their own kind of people)

What do we think? would you implement them like this? let me know in the comments below.

Sephlock

Well, zero divided by two is still zero, so I guess you can subdivide them as much as you like.

TheGuardianOfMetal

Dogs of War should be uROR for Southern Realms. Maybe with them having more ROR but weaker or limited standard units

Arthas_Menethil

I really don't see them splitting the Dogs of War and the Southern Realms. It would be like splitting Peasants from Bretonnia, Goblins from Greenskins and etc.

SeanJeanquoi

@TheGuardianOfMetal

I'd say that Local Dogs of war units like Ricco's Republican Guard should be the Regiments of Renown for the Southern Realms, while the Dogs of war from other Races should be Mercenary units all of their own. (with some of them Being RoR as well but available as a mercenary for their Parent faction as well as for the Southern Realms and the Rogue armies)

SeanJeanquoi

@Arthas_Menethil

It wouldn't be like splitting peasants and Bretonnia.

Perhaps the Greenskins reference is somewhat apt, since some people have made a case that they should indeed be seperate to some degree (or at least, expanded on more than other races because of the fact that its basically a collection of different races in one)

I'm not suggesting a full split, rather: that Dogs of War armies could be their own things somewhat separate from the Southern realms but still integral to the Southern Realms armies.

this would allow for them both to be better expanded upon individually. it would offer more variety for us and more DLC opportunities for them.

SeanJeanquoi

@Arthas_Menethil

Remember that Dogs of War are meant to be available to everyone, not just southern Realms. I think that giving them to everyone would dilute the unique natures of the different factions however so a compromise would be better.

Transform Rogue armies into Dogs of War Armies and Allow Southern Realms to recruit units from them and a select few lords.

rather than allowing every other faction to get them: only the units parent faction may also have access to them (Ogre Kingdoms get Ogre Mercenaries. Tuchi-Huichi's Raiders are available to the Lizardmen and so on)

that is, unless there are lore exceptions like with the Cursed company or Dwarf Pirates. Then those units could either stick to DoW and SR or be offered to a limited number of relevant friendly factions.

RikRiorik

Should? Perhaps. But is it what we could reasonably expect? I think the more reasonable thing would be to see an amalgamation of the two if it was to be a race and not some sort of extra mercenary mechanic.

SeanJeanquoi

@RikRiorik

I'd argue that this is actually a more reasonable expectation because it opens the door for more DLC on top.

An amalgamation would mean inevitably that the southern Realms would have loads of core units from other factions which would make them a complete mess. it also means CA would have to rally together all these assets from all these different factions all at once so as to give us a full Dogs of War army rather than a southern Realms one.

If they were separated then we could get a mostly complete DoW roster with a rock solid SR roster to work around.

then Subsiquent DLC's could make the Dogs of War Rogue armies playable and add more RoR/DoW units from more factions.

With the Outlaws and pirates: this could also open the door to a rework of Sartosa to make it human and allow the implementation of other pirate Lords like Jaego Roth, Laithikir Fellheart and so on and would allow us to get a playable New World Colonies.

New world colonies aren't a proper principality: Port Reaver is Based on Tortuga and Swamp town is supposed to be a community of criminals who fled from Port Reaver. so if we did see Southern Realms we perhaps wouldn't/shouldn't get a New world colonies start position. that would work far better for a pirate like Jaego, who is also the arch enemy of Luther Harkon.

Edit: its Actually Noctilus hes enemies with.

Arthas_Menethil

@SeanJeanquoi
"It wouldn't be like splitting peasants and Bretonnia."
It would be since you're cutting out a major part of the Southern Realms since they heavily use mercenaries as Tilea is the one who gets properly covered as they use the Dogs of War as their armies.

The Southern Realms relies on the Dogs of War for their armies as unlike the other places they don't form their own armies. That is what makes them different.

Dogs of War LLs are also Southern Realms Characters. They are too tied together to be split up as it literally says that "In this way the armies of Tilea developed as mercenary armies".

The Dogs of War LLs
Borgio the Besieger
Lucrezzia Belladonna
Mydas the Mean
Lorenzo Lupo
Marco Colombo
Leonardo Da Miragliano
They all work in and around Tilea because the Dogs of War are about Tilea.

RikRiorik

@SeanJeanquoi . Being drunk on holiday as I write I am no longer entirely certain of what I meant. Apologies.

But trying to make a new point (or maybe the same?) I’ve never been fond of the DoW as a faction. I just don’t feel that there is any sort of coherency and thus appeal to a ”race” that is in fact a lot of different races and wonky units melded together in a hot stew.

Southern Realms as an amalgamation of aesthetics and fitting units in a bid to achieve coherency always felt so much more appealing to me personally. If one wants to implement a layer of mercenaryhood on that then that strikes me as a better thing than having a DoW as well as a race which just uses lots of different races and by utilising some of the RoR aesthetics robs the Southern Realms as a race of any possibility of a feeling of seperate aesthetic distinction and identity.

Whatever races the DoW would draw most from aesthetically would inevitably feel less distinct and if the DoW were not to try and have a main unifying aesthetic then it’d just be a dreadful hodge podge in my eyes.

I think that is perhaps what I meant to convey.

Vanilla_Gorilla

Southern Realms have a highly boring standard army. Give me DoW representing them or don't give me them at all.

Omega_Warrior

Without Dogs of War there isn’t really any hope for the southern realms ever existing. It’s the dogs of war that has the material to work with to become a actual race. And with the southern realms being squarely in the game 1 map, they would need the dogs to have any reason to be in the games future.

Without Dogs of War there is no southern realm.

SiWI

The "southern realms" a name never really use in the Tt and exclusively used in TW, are nothing military without DoW.

OdTengri

The DoW and the Southern realms are one and the same thing the only thing that should be split out of the Dogs of War are certain older mercenaries that don't make sense working for humans any more, Mengel's Manflayer, Ruglug's Iron Orks ect.... Those should be given to the factions that are most appropriate for them.

corvus_codex

Actually, "southern realms" is what should be divided.
since Tilea, Estalia and Border princes are pretty different in all kind of things. culture, structure, goverment, army...

I actually find annoying that people think that "TEB" should be 1 DLC. they are 3 factions.
it would be like people asking for a DLC with empire and bretonnia just because they're humans with connected borders

SiWI

OdTengri said:

The DoW and the Southern realms are one and the same thing the only thing that should be split out of the Dogs of War are certain older mercenaries that don't make sense working for humans any more, Mengel's Manflayer, Ruglug's Iron Orks ect.... Those should be given to the factions that are most appropriate for them.

perhaps they could be something the DOW get, if they have good relationships with those races.

SeanJeanquoi

@Arthas_Menethil

I specifically said that they should be moved to one side not removed from one another.

Even in my OP I stated that the Core Roster of the SR would be lacking without DoW. Im not saying they should be split off entirely im saying they should be separated because they each offer different things.

DoW should still be implemented alongside SR but the Southern Realms should have their own roster to build around. Go back and look at my OP, responses to you and responses to Rikrorik.

"Dogs of War LLs are also Southern Realms Characters. They are too tied together to be split up as it literally says that "In this way the armies of Tilea developed as mercenary armies".

The Dogs of War LLs
Borgio the Besieger
Lucrezzia Belladonna
Mydas the Mean
Lorenzo Lupo
Marco Colombo
Leonardo Da Miragliano
They all work in and around Tilea because the Dogs of War are about Tilea."

Yup, I've been looking through every scrap of lore on them (and their 5th Edition army book) over the last few days.

the problem is that they aren't actually dogs of war (except Mydas the Mean) they are, all of them either rulers of a state in Tilea or famous people from that region (nobles, architects, inventors etc)

They aren't actual Dogs of War at all and some of them have almost zero relation to the Dogs of War mercenaries.

Legit Dogs of War Lords would be: Mengil Manhide, Asarnil Dragonlord, Ghazak Khan, Golfag Maneater and Beorg Bearstruck. These characters are actual mercenaries themselves, as well as being in control of their own Merc Forces.

the other characters only really hire the Dogs of War (not all of them have).

the other issue with keeping them all as one is that there are so many characters that would fall by the wayside. We've got:

Borgio the Besieger
Lucrezzia Belladonna
Mydas the Mean
Lorenzo Lupo
Marco Colombo
Leonardo Da Miragliano
Mengil Manhide
Asarnil Dragonlord
Ghazak Khan
Golfag Maneater
Beorg Bearstruck
Isabella Giovanna
Gashnag the Black Prince
Lietpold the Black

and so on.

these characters cant all fit in one place

SeanJeanquoi

@Vanilla_Gorilla

@OdTengri

@Omega_Warrior

I think you also misunderstood my meaning. perhaps I didn't put it in clear enough terms.

I'm not saying they should be 100% different factions all together.

I am saying that the Southern Realms and Dogs of War should be seperated to some Degree. Enough so that each can be unique in their own right and potentially so that both can be made playable on their own.

The Dogs of War would still be Heavily reliant on a benefactor like the Southern Realms (Similar to the Emperors mandate for Wulfhart)

The Southern Realms Would still be Heavily reliant on Dogs of War, Outlaw and Pirate Units to fill a niche they are lacking in their base roster.

SeanJeanquoi

@RikRiorik

That's cool man. Hope you're having a good time

I'm not saying we remove Dogs of War from them entirely. Southern Realms Should still be able to Fill holes in their Roster With Mercenaries but the mercenaries shouldn't overshadow the faction themselves, they should be an addition to the faction. a necessary one that gives you more options than you would have with their base units.

MisterSquid

You know what? I can agree to this. I never quite liked the idea of the Southern Realms army being filled with... crossbow orcs or thralls of undead. Frankly, the Southern Realms should focus on the units from the Southern Realms themselves first and foremost.

The only thing is that I do think there should be an element of mercenary gameplay to the Southern Realms campaign. Some kind of mechanic where you can take missions from other factions.

OdTengri

The "Southern Realms" is a made up term by CA. Both Tila and to a lesser extent Estalia are based on the Papal States period and the standing armies of the "Southern Realms" are mercenaries also known as The Dogs of War.

The Dogs of War are the standing armies of the "Southern Realms" you cant split them apart they are one and the same thing.

Dogs of war from other Races should be given back as RoRs to their parent faction, in example.

Beorg Bearstruck and the Bearmen of Urslo - > Norsca
Golgfag's Ogres -> Ogre Kingdoms
Mengil Manhide's Manflayers - > Dark Elves
Oglah Khan's Wolfboyz - > Chaos Dwarfs
Ruglud's Armoured Orcs - > Greenskins
Tichi-Huichi's Raiders - > Lizardmen

Some might argue for additions or exclusions to my example list but this just conceptual. The idea being that factions had less friction between them in earlier editions and as the game went on the lines between who would and wouldn't work together got more defined.

SeanJeanquoi

@OdTengri

"The Dogs of War, also known as the Regiments of Renown, is a polite catch-all term to generally describe Mercenaries from all across the known World, fighting on behalf of anyone willing to pay their exorbitant prices. They are drawn to places where fortunes can be won by ruthless adventures. From the lush jungles of the West to the misty isles of the East, and from the steamy swamplands of the South to the harsh snowlands of the north, the world is truly awash with rag-tag armies of sellswords who nurture the wishful dreams of loot, plunder and adventure.

Although many Dogs of War ply their bloody trade to every point on the compass, the most notorious breeding-ground of mercenaries lies within the fraction war-torn city-states of Tilea in the Old World. From all the kingdoms of the Old World and many more beyond, sell-swords come towards Tilea in the tens of thousands, reassured of profitable employment and great battles to be won. Tilea is the battleground from which these gold-hungry mercenaries will ply their expertise to all those willing to pay. Yet no matter the motivation, bold armies of Dogs of War depart every few weeks from the ports of Tilea and sail off into the sunset, ready to conqueror new lands and found new Kingdoms the likes of which no man have ever seen before"

Yes "Dogs of War" is technically a made up term but its a made up term that means something different than you describe and that distinction is important.

OdTengri

I never said Dogs of War is a made up term. What the hell are you on about. SOUTHERN REALMS is a made up term.

Your statement makes no sense in respect to what I've written.

SeanJeanquoi

@OdTengri

My Comment has disappeared for the moment. I was trying to show you this:



as well as the Quote I already had.

PoorManatee6197

Contrary to what most people of this forum seem to believe, before this game there wasn't anything like "southerm realms". Tilea, Estalia and Border Princes were 3 diferent human nations with their own history, culture etc just like Bretonnia and the empire. Of those 3, only Tilea got an armybook, which is the dogs of war one. And thats the thing, you can't separate Tilea from dogs of war because Tilea IS dogs of war, they're all mercenaries down there.

The only split i would accept is Tilea, Estalia and BP as 3 different races.

SeanJeanquoi

@OdTengri

Sorry I miss read your comment a little.

The southern Realms are just a Catch All term so that we dont have to keep saying Tilea Estalia and the Border Princes.

I Mentioned in my OP that they were Based on Renaissance italy, Hence the Mercenaries and the Aesthetic. I am Aware of it but they do also have Legit units of their own and there are plenty of sources CA could pull from to make more (Black Guard of Morr, Shield Maidens of Myrmidia, Sisters of Fury, Order of the Righteous Spear Etc).

Southern Realms 'can't exist' without Dogs of War but Dogs of War can and do exist without Southern Realms as is referenced in my prior quotes. (the first will return shortly).

again, im not saying we make them completely separate from one another.

Dogs of War could be a nomadic collection of all the Mercenary units + some additional themed units.

OdTengri

Yes the individual Character Units of the Dogs of War do not come from a particular race. That is what your post is Referring to.

On the flip side we have this that has already been posted. Particularly the statement in the last paragraph "In this way the Armies of Tilia developed as Mercenary armies."

SeanJeanquoi

@OdTengri

@PoorManatee6197

yes I see that but that does not deflect the fact that there are Southern Realm Specific units. they may be mercenaries by trade (in Tilea at least) but thats because thats the culture. It doesn't mean that Tilea or Estalia or the Border Princes have no unique units, no dedicated armed forces or guards or knightly orders.

Like I just said in my last post: "Perhaps Southern Realms "can't exist" without Dogs of War but Dogs of War can and do exist without Southern Realms as is referenced in my prior quotes"

The intro to the Dogs of War 5th Edition army book. It both states that mercenaries (Dogs of War) exist everywhere and states that Tilea is made up of Mercenary armies.

OdTengri

SeanJeanquoi said:

I Mentioned in my OP that they were Based on Renaissance italy, Hence the Mercenaries and the Aesthetic. I am Aware of it but they do also have Legit units of their own and there are plenty of sources CA could pull from to make more (Black Guard of Morr, Shield Maidens of Myrmidia, Sisters of Fury, Order of the Righteous Spear Etc).

I'd disagree with that statement, they for the most part have no units of their own outside of DoW units.

Thee "units" you dug out of Role Playing supplements that serve the Temple of Myrmidia and perhaps the Rat Catchers of Tobaro the closest thing you could find to "non" merc units in Tilia/Estalia.

The Black Guard of Morr are more of an Empire Unit but they do exist internationally like several religious orders.

SeanJeanquoi said:

Southern Realms 'can't exist' without Dogs of War but Dogs of War can and do exist without Southern Realms as is referenced in my prior quotes. (the first will return shortly).

Yes, so can Markus Wolfheart. We have lots of lords starting far away from their "homeland" I don't see why it wouldn't be handled the same way with the DoW/Southern Realms.

SeanJeanquoi

@OdTengri

Yes, that is because "Mercenaries" includes Ricco's Republican Guard, Bronzino's Galloper Guns, Marksmen of Mirigliano, Pirazzo's Lost Legion, the Alcatani Fellowship Etc. all of these units are local. Tilea born and bread and many of them have an aesthetic exclusive to Tilea.

They have Tilean units of their own that are of their aesthetic, from their region and fight for them. the reason they have very little proper unit types we can draw from (just archetypes based on RoR) is because of the Mercenary culture: every legion of troops are trying to sell their own theme with their own catchy name. that doesn't make them non Tilean, it just reflects the local culture of recruitment.

yet they are still reflective of archetypes found in the region: Ricco's Republican Guard and the Alcatani Fellowship and Leopold's Leopard company are all heavily armoured Tilean Pikemen. Pikemen are still a mainstay of Tilean culture and Tilean forms of battle.

if we were to translate this faction into Warhammer 2: recruiting local Crossbowmen, Pikemen, Spear Cav etc would be no different to recruiting dreadspears for the Druchii or Lothern Sea Guard for the Asur. these are their core units and part of their unique theme.

then we have the units that aren't even really mercenaries like the Myrmidians, the Morrians and so forth.

On the other hand: recruiting Norscans, Orcs, Ogres Etc would be very different. they arent of the same race, culture or from the same region, they are proper Dogs of War who ply their trade all over the known world.