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C.A., please remove faction cap on dread saurians.

2

Comments

  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,187

    They are very expensive.
    So, please, it is very hard to get armies of so expensive units in large amount even by middle game. And, in the late game, nothing should limit army compositions. It is hard-earned gratification.

    And, by the way, they sold D.L.C. to many gamers, including me.
    So, just like with confederations for Nakai, you can change game in a more pro-freedom of gamers side. Thank you.

    DON'T LISTEN TO OP.

    He doesn't know what hes talking about. I don't want to fight late game Doom Stacks of Dread Saurians controlled by the AI.

    DON'T Listen to @Deep_echo_sound
  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,197
    All caps do is **** the ai and make the game easier.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    CnConrad said:

    All caps do is **** the ai and make the game easier.

    An unqualified statement.
  • Lin_HuichiLin_Huichi Registered Users Posts: 483

    Hell No! we already need more caps to stop Ai from spamming **** armies... i am a "balancist" i want a game whit balance and this game is need of balance a long time ago.

    I am all for capping those units. i support CA in that decision.

    CA need to put the foot down on unit caps and balance issues, they been catergin to fans in that department and it a mess. leave the balancing issues to CA.

    or do you want this "balanced" armies whit dread saurians


    That actually looks very difficult. Every army is not like this so I think every so often this surprise doom stack is fine.

    Looking for a day one mod to remove the Dread saurian cap.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Yep, a one region faction should totally have a fullstack of dragons, nothing absolutely stupid about that at all (lies).
  • NeverBackDown#9942NeverBackDown#9942 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,877

    Ninjasoup said:

    No real Cap, you can increase the amount of Dread Saurians from a building...build more buildings get more big Dino.

    That is still a cap.
    Not in the way it's usually discussed. Most of the time when caps are discussed it's just a blanket hard cap. I'd hardly call it a cap when you can still build as many of something as you want. That's like saying we have caps now because you can't get a star dragon because you have to build their recruitment building first.

    This just makes it a pre-requisite, not a hard, inflexible cap.
    It is still a cap. It may be more flexible, but at a certain point it no longer will be flexible and you will be capped.

    There should be no caps. It's a sandbox and that's what TW has always been. If you want to limit your game then use a mod that affects you
  • JDog91JDog91 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 526
    Of all monsters, Dread Saurians should have a cap. They're rare as crap in the lore, they're basically all controlled by the lizardmen and each one has its own temple in which its lavished and spoiled.

    Star dragons need a cap next. They should be bloody rare too.

    If you don't want caps, either mod it out, or hope CA put in some kind of cap checkbox for campaign. It'd be crap if dreads were super common, because they're just not, and the campaign is still following the lore to some degree.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Ninjasoup said:

    No real Cap, you can increase the amount of Dread Saurians from a building...build more buildings get more big Dino.

    That is still a cap.
    Not in the way it's usually discussed. Most of the time when caps are discussed it's just a blanket hard cap. I'd hardly call it a cap when you can still build as many of something as you want. That's like saying we have caps now because you can't get a star dragon because you have to build their recruitment building first.

    This just makes it a pre-requisite, not a hard, inflexible cap.
    It is still a cap. It may be more flexible, but at a certain point it no longer will be flexible and you will be capped.

    There should be no caps. It's a sandbox and that's what TW has always been. If you want to limit your game then use a mod that affects you
    Why do people think that "sandbox" means "unrestricted elites"? That argument makes no sense no matter how often people repeat it.
  • ScicotheronScicotheron Registered Users Posts: 36

    Hell No! we already need more caps to stop Ai from spamming **** armies... i am a "balancist" i want a game whit balance and this game is need of balance a long time ago.

    I am all for capping those units. i support CA in that decision.

    CA need to put the foot down on unit caps and balance issues, they been catergin to fans in that department and it a mess. leave the balancing issues to CA.

    or do you want this "balanced" armies whit dread saurians


    Don't have any weight into unit cap discussion but would like to point out that army belongs to the rouge army "Wrath of Nature" and they can only recruit: Ancient Treemen, Forest Dragon, Dryads, Eagles, and Treekin. Rouge army balance is a different discussion as their army comps and unit access is all over the place.
  • NeverBackDown#9942NeverBackDown#9942 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,877
    edited September 2019

    Ninjasoup said:

    No real Cap, you can increase the amount of Dread Saurians from a building...build more buildings get more big Dino.

    That is still a cap.
    Not in the way it's usually discussed. Most of the time when caps are discussed it's just a blanket hard cap. I'd hardly call it a cap when you can still build as many of something as you want. That's like saying we have caps now because you can't get a star dragon because you have to build their recruitment building first.

    This just makes it a pre-requisite, not a hard, inflexible cap.
    It is still a cap. It may be more flexible, but at a certain point it no longer will be flexible and you will be capped.

    There should be no caps. It's a sandbox and that's what TW has always been. If you want to limit your game then use a mod that affects you
    Why do people think that "sandbox" means "unrestricted elites"? That argument makes no sense no matter how often people repeat it.
    You don't know what a sandbox is then do you? TW has always been a sandbox. You have always been able to spam whatever you want.

    Same thing with other sandbox games. Just Cause is a sandbox, can do almost anything. Universe Sandbox. Can do almost anything. Basically every sandbox game almost every lets you do whatever you want.

    Don't believe me? Google it. First LINK google shows.
    Definition - What does Sandbox mean?
    A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will.

    Literally everything is against you here.

    Want another example? Same search also found this quote from pcgamesn
    They are universes to be experienced at a pace not dictated by developers.

    Same search also shows what Gamasutra posted in 2009, when sandbox was definitely a selling point.
    "The concept of sandbox-style gameplay, as we know, suggests more-or-less undirected free-play."

    The games are unrestricted on the players with the tools given to the player(as it is impossible to make something for little everything).

    So in the confines of total war, free player will is a thing. Which is why we can steamroll, have unlimited elites, armies, etc.
    The same reason as to NOT limit # of player armies but to suggest that we don't have to many is the supply lines mechanic. You can do whatever you want, but to keep it more fair they give you an incentive to NOT spam armies. But they don't RESTRICT you from doing so.
  • Arthas_Menethil#3421Arthas_Menethil#3421 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,350

    Ninjasoup said:

    No real Cap, you can increase the amount of Dread Saurians from a building...build more buildings get more big Dino.

    That is still a cap.
    Not in the way it's usually discussed. Most of the time when caps are discussed it's just a blanket hard cap. I'd hardly call it a cap when you can still build as many of something as you want. That's like saying we have caps now because you can't get a star dragon because you have to build their recruitment building first.

    This just makes it a pre-requisite, not a hard, inflexible cap.
    It is still a cap. It may be more flexible, but at a certain point it no longer will be flexible and you will be capped.

    There should be no caps. It's a sandbox and that's what TW has always been. If you want to limit your game then use a mod that affects you
    Why do people think that "sandbox" means "unrestricted elites"? That argument makes no sense no matter how often people repeat it.
    You don't know what a sandbox is then do you? TW has always been a sandbox. You have always been able to spam whatever you want.

    Same thing with other sandbox games. Just Cause is a sandbox, can do almost anything. Universe Sandbox. Can do almost anything. Basically every sandbox game almost every lets you do whatever you want.

    Don't believe me? Google it. First LINK google shows.
    Definition - What does Sandbox mean?
    A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will.

    Literally everything is against you here.

    Want another example? Same search also found this quote from pcgamesn
    They are universes to be experienced at a pace not dictated by developers.

    Same search also shows what Gamasutra posted in 2009, when sandbox was definitely a selling point.
    "The concept of sandbox-style gameplay, as we know, suggests more-or-less undirected free-play."

    The games are unrestricted on the players with the tools given to the player(as it is impossible to make something for little everything).

    So in the confines of total war, free player will is a thing. Which is why we can steamroll, have unlimited elites, armies, etc.
    The same reason as to NOT limit # of player armies but to suggest that we don't have to many is the supply lines mechanic. You can do whatever you want, but to keep it more fair they give you an incentive to NOT spam armies. But they don't RESTRICT you from doing so.
    Yet we have restrictions on Vampire Count ranged units. Shall we remove those and damage the Vampire Count Asymmetrical balance?
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • NemoxNemox Registered Users Posts: 2,901
    There are a lot of restrictions that have been added, removed or re-done across Total War's history. Hell, Thrones of Britannia also tackled the idea of capping units dynamically to represent the rarity of Elites. The idea on its own had merit and was well received. Shame about the game overall.

  • NeverBackDown#9942NeverBackDown#9942 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,877

    Ninjasoup said:

    No real Cap, you can increase the amount of Dread Saurians from a building...build more buildings get more big Dino.

    That is still a cap.
    Not in the way it's usually discussed. Most of the time when caps are discussed it's just a blanket hard cap. I'd hardly call it a cap when you can still build as many of something as you want. That's like saying we have caps now because you can't get a star dragon because you have to build their recruitment building first.

    This just makes it a pre-requisite, not a hard, inflexible cap.
    It is still a cap. It may be more flexible, but at a certain point it no longer will be flexible and you will be capped.

    There should be no caps. It's a sandbox and that's what TW has always been. If you want to limit your game then use a mod that affects you
    Why do people think that "sandbox" means "unrestricted elites"? That argument makes no sense no matter how often people repeat it.
    You don't know what a sandbox is then do you? TW has always been a sandbox. You have always been able to spam whatever you want.

    Same thing with other sandbox games. Just Cause is a sandbox, can do almost anything. Universe Sandbox. Can do almost anything. Basically every sandbox game almost every lets you do whatever you want.

    Don't believe me? Google it. First LINK google shows.
    Definition - What does Sandbox mean?
    A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will.

    Literally everything is against you here.

    Want another example? Same search also found this quote from pcgamesn
    They are universes to be experienced at a pace not dictated by developers.

    Same search also shows what Gamasutra posted in 2009, when sandbox was definitely a selling point.
    "The concept of sandbox-style gameplay, as we know, suggests more-or-less undirected free-play."

    The games are unrestricted on the players with the tools given to the player(as it is impossible to make something for little everything).

    So in the confines of total war, free player will is a thing. Which is why we can steamroll, have unlimited elites, armies, etc.
    The same reason as to NOT limit # of player armies but to suggest that we don't have to many is the supply lines mechanic. You can do whatever you want, but to keep it more fair they give you an incentive to NOT spam armies. But they don't RESTRICT you from doing so.
    Yet we have restrictions on Vampire Count ranged units. Shall we remove those and damage the Vampire Count Asymmetrical balance?
    This is not the same thing. VC don't have ranged units, so by adding them when they aren't supposed to, is to respect the lore.
  • Arthas_Menethil#3421Arthas_Menethil#3421 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,350

    Ninjasoup said:

    No real Cap, you can increase the amount of Dread Saurians from a building...build more buildings get more big Dino.

    That is still a cap.
    Not in the way it's usually discussed. Most of the time when caps are discussed it's just a blanket hard cap. I'd hardly call it a cap when you can still build as many of something as you want. That's like saying we have caps now because you can't get a star dragon because you have to build their recruitment building first.

    This just makes it a pre-requisite, not a hard, inflexible cap.
    It is still a cap. It may be more flexible, but at a certain point it no longer will be flexible and you will be capped.

    There should be no caps. It's a sandbox and that's what TW has always been. If you want to limit your game then use a mod that affects you
    Why do people think that "sandbox" means "unrestricted elites"? That argument makes no sense no matter how often people repeat it.
    You don't know what a sandbox is then do you? TW has always been a sandbox. You have always been able to spam whatever you want.

    Same thing with other sandbox games. Just Cause is a sandbox, can do almost anything. Universe Sandbox. Can do almost anything. Basically every sandbox game almost every lets you do whatever you want.

    Don't believe me? Google it. First LINK google shows.
    Definition - What does Sandbox mean?
    A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will.

    Literally everything is against you here.

    Want another example? Same search also found this quote from pcgamesn
    They are universes to be experienced at a pace not dictated by developers.

    Same search also shows what Gamasutra posted in 2009, when sandbox was definitely a selling point.
    "The concept of sandbox-style gameplay, as we know, suggests more-or-less undirected free-play."

    The games are unrestricted on the players with the tools given to the player(as it is impossible to make something for little everything).

    So in the confines of total war, free player will is a thing. Which is why we can steamroll, have unlimited elites, armies, etc.
    The same reason as to NOT limit # of player armies but to suggest that we don't have to many is the supply lines mechanic. You can do whatever you want, but to keep it more fair they give you an incentive to NOT spam armies. But they don't RESTRICT you from doing so.
    Yet we have restrictions on Vampire Count ranged units. Shall we remove those and damage the Vampire Count Asymmetrical balance?
    This is not the same thing. VC don't have ranged units, so by adding them when they aren't supposed to, is to respect the lore.
    They do though ingame (and in the lore given the Sylvanian levies) and they have a cap. Clearly under sandbox gameplay the cap should be removed to not limit Vampire Count players.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • MeGa_N00B#2436MeGa_N00B#2436 Registered Users Posts: 1,142
    edited September 2019
    So not a real army cap.

    I can still make my armies of 19 Dread Saurians.

    Nevertheless I agree with OP, I still would like it to be removed.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,388
    Honestly, I feel that something like a global cap based on buildings was a necessary balancing factor.

    The Dread Saurian is so strong that it's best-in-slot over other tier 5 dinosaurs that perform the same function, such as Feral Carnosaurs and Ancient Stegadons. Without some limit to how many you can have, you'd end up seeing those units rendered obsolete pretty much as soon as they're unlocked. With a cap, there's a reason to have both the Ancient Stegadons and the Dread Saurians among your forces.

    I do think there is a bit of misunderstanding about what a "sandbox" is. A sandbox does not mean you're able to do anything at all - it means that you're free to do what you like within the confines of the resources available in the sandbox. Having a situation in a fantasy setting where the availability of a particular unit is limited regardless of how much gold (or other currency) you throw at it is a legitimate resource limitation for a sandbox. According to the fluff, there are only eight Steam Tanks, for instance (although in the context of the game, I could see there being a research to remove or expand this limit if it was implemented, representing rediscovering the technology to build more).

    I'm against army caps because they are artificial (once you've got the units, there's nothing stopping you from concentrating them: there are mentions in the fluff of both the High and Dark Elves having units of about a dozen dragons, which in the case of the Dark Elves, was all or nearly all that they had at the time... and possibly also true for the High Elves if you only count the dragons that are awake) and can result in issues with transferring units between armies, but global caps are certainly valid. There are some things in the fluff which are noted as being particularly rare or even having a specified number - putting soft global caps on some of these is a fair representation of the fluff.
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038
    It's a dynamic cap. Just build more of its building. If anything the same mechanics should be extended to every elite unit.
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038
    CnConrad said:

    All caps do is **** the ai and make the game easier.

    Not true at all. Have you ever played Grimhammer? I regularly see the AI moving three or four balanced armies in somewhat coordinated offensives. It's just as efficient as a doomstack, only that the resulting battle looks like a fantasy battle and not a Godzilla kaiju movie.
  • BoombastekBoombastek Registered Users Posts: 2,141
    Cap was said in MP and for no reason custom games
  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,187

    Cap was said in MP and for no reason custom games

    Custom games can disable.

    Dread Saurians have a Single Player Unit cap Tomb kings style.
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038


    Same thing with other sandbox games. Just Cause is a sandbox, can do almost anything. Universe Sandbox. Can do almost anything. Basically every sandbox game almost every lets you do whatever you want.

    You still can't shoot bullets from an empty gun, for example. Sandbox in videogame terms means that there is no compelling story to follow or timed progression, not that there aren't no restrictions. That would be ridiculous. The difference between a sandbox RPG, like Skyrim, and a non-sandbox RPG, like Baldur's Gate, is that Skyrim is build around the idea of having you roam around doing things your way, while Baldur's Gate have you progressing toward your final destiny in a semi-linear manner.

    And that's it. But both have limitations on what you're allowed to do. You can't cast spell you don't know. You can't craft weapons without materials. You can't spec yourself to have infinite hit points or to be permanently invisible. There are always restrictions *in the rule system*. That's what a rule system is. The fact that Warhammer is a sandbox simply means you can conquer in any way and aren't forced to follow a loreful or historical path. It doesn't mean there are no rules, or that logic doesn't apply.
  • MeGa_N00B#2436MeGa_N00B#2436 Registered Users Posts: 1,142
    Xenos7 said:

    It's a dynamic cap. Just build more of its building. If anything the same mechanics should be extended to every elite unit.

    Sorry but there is already limit on elites, it is called price and upkeep. These 2 things that TK do not have for their units, that is why they have caps on units based on their buildings, it is different style of play.

    For other races also including building caps will just make price caps useless. The limit should be based on one or the other, not both. Plus it takes something that is unique to TK and gives it to other races.
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038
    LolTHELol said:

    Xenos7 said:

    It's a dynamic cap. Just build more of its building. If anything the same mechanics should be extended to every elite unit.

    Sorry but there is already limit on elites, it is called price and upkeep. These 2 things that TK do not have for their units, that is why they have caps on units based on their buildings, it is different style of play.

    For other races also including building caps will just make price caps useless. The limit should be based on one or the other, not both. Plus it takes something that is unique to TK and gives it to other races.
    Price and upkeep aren't enough because of global recruitment, which means that you need just one copy of each military building, and then you can build up your economy everywhere, swimming in money. The game has no concept of military infrastructure or manpower. If it was a WWII game, then no amount of strategic bombing and losses could ever slow down a nation, because as long as you have money in the bank you can recruit armies. That's obviously nonsense.
  • MeGa_N00B#2436MeGa_N00B#2436 Registered Users Posts: 1,142
    Xenos7 said:

    LolTHELol said:

    Xenos7 said:

    It's a dynamic cap. Just build more of its building. If anything the same mechanics should be extended to every elite unit.

    Sorry but there is already limit on elites, it is called price and upkeep. These 2 things that TK do not have for their units, that is why they have caps on units based on their buildings, it is different style of play.

    For other races also including building caps will just make price caps useless. The limit should be based on one or the other, not both. Plus it takes something that is unique to TK and gives it to other races.
    Price and upkeep aren't enough because of global recruitment, which means that you need just one copy of each military building, and then you can build up your economy everywhere, swimming in money. The game has no concept of military infrastructure or manpower. If it was a WWII game, then no amount of strategic bombing and losses could ever slow down a nation, because as long as you have money in the bank you can recruit armies. That's obviously nonsense.
    Money or income buildings in this game are like a metaphor for whatever makes your armies function like the dark magic for Vampires and so on. So you can think of them as your supply lines.

    So if this was a WW2 game losing ton of your cities would cripple your war effort greatly even if you did not lose your recruitment buildings base, since you would still would not have enough money or income to field as many or as elite armies. Maybe you could still recruit more units but you will be in a deficit or worse.

    Lastly if you had just one recruitment base that destruction of it, combined with the destruction of enough income supplying bases would just equal to untimely game over for you.
  • ArizonaBlack1ArizonaBlack1 Registered Users Posts: 280

    Ninjasoup said:

    No real Cap, you can increase the amount of Dread Saurians from a building...build more buildings get more big Dino.

    That is still a cap.
    Not in the way it's usually discussed. Most of the time when caps are discussed it's just a blanket hard cap. I'd hardly call it a cap when you can still build as many of something as you want. That's like saying we have caps now because you can't get a star dragon because you have to build their recruitment building first.

    This just makes it a pre-requisite, not a hard, inflexible cap.
    It is still a cap. It may be more flexible, but at a certain point it no longer will be flexible and you will be capped.

    There should be no caps. It's a sandbox and that's what TW has always been. If you want to limit your game then use a mod that affects you
    Why do people think that "sandbox" means "unrestricted elites"? That argument makes no sense no matter how often people repeat it.
    You don't know what a sandbox is then do you? TW has always been a sandbox. You have always been able to spam whatever you want.

    Same thing with other sandbox games. Just Cause is a sandbox, can do almost anything. Universe Sandbox. Can do almost anything. Basically every sandbox game almost every lets you do whatever you want.

    Don't believe me? Google it. First LINK google shows.
    Definition - What does Sandbox mean?
    A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will.

    Literally everything is against you here.

    Want another example? Same search also found this quote from pcgamesn
    They are universes to be experienced at a pace not dictated by developers.

    Same search also shows what Gamasutra posted in 2009, when sandbox was definitely a selling point.
    "The concept of sandbox-style gameplay, as we know, suggests more-or-less undirected free-play."

    The games are unrestricted on the players with the tools given to the player(as it is impossible to make something for little everything).

    So in the confines of total war, free player will is a thing. Which is why we can steamroll, have unlimited elites, armies, etc.
    The same reason as to NOT limit # of player armies but to suggest that we don't have to many is the supply lines mechanic. You can do whatever you want, but to keep it more fair they give you an incentive to NOT spam armies. But they don't RESTRICT you from doing so.
    Yet we have restrictions on Vampire Count ranged units. Shall we remove those and damage the Vampire Count Asymmetrical balance?
    This is not the same thing. VC don't have ranged units, so by adding them when they aren't supposed to, is to respect the lore.
    So would a unit cap on 7 steam tanks be ok? If we are going by Lore Swordmasters shouldn’t be spammed, Dragons of all races should be rare, and the lower tier troops far more prevalent. Not sure I get your angle
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038
    LolTHELol said:

    Xenos7 said:

    LolTHELol said:

    Xenos7 said:

    It's a dynamic cap. Just build more of its building. If anything the same mechanics should be extended to every elite unit.

    Sorry but there is already limit on elites, it is called price and upkeep. These 2 things that TK do not have for their units, that is why they have caps on units based on their buildings, it is different style of play.

    For other races also including building caps will just make price caps useless. The limit should be based on one or the other, not both. Plus it takes something that is unique to TK and gives it to other races.
    Price and upkeep aren't enough because of global recruitment, which means that you need just one copy of each military building, and then you can build up your economy everywhere, swimming in money. The game has no concept of military infrastructure or manpower. If it was a WWII game, then no amount of strategic bombing and losses could ever slow down a nation, because as long as you have money in the bank you can recruit armies. That's obviously nonsense.
    Money or income buildings in this game are like a metaphor for whatever makes your armies function like the dark magic for Vampires and so on. So you can think of them as your supply lines.

    So if this was a WW2 game losing ton of your cities would cripple your war effort greatly even if you did not lose your recruitment buildings base, since you would still would not have enough money or income to field as many or as elite armies. Maybe you could still recruit more units but you will be in a deficit or worse.

    Lastly if you had just one recruitment base that destruction of it, combined with the destruction of enough income supplying bases would just equal to untimely game over for you.
    It never happens. There is no real reason to build multiple recruitment bases because the AI just can't, and indeed shouldn't, attack the heartland of your empire bypassing the outer provinces. Think about it: what happens in game is that you recruit people from everywhere, then ship them to a single barracks, train them, then ship them back to the four corners of the world. And this allows you to swim in money. You can't tell me this makes any sense.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,388
    Xenos7 said:

    LolTHELol said:

    Xenos7 said:

    It's a dynamic cap. Just build more of its building. If anything the same mechanics should be extended to every elite unit.

    Sorry but there is already limit on elites, it is called price and upkeep. These 2 things that TK do not have for their units, that is why they have caps on units based on their buildings, it is different style of play.

    For other races also including building caps will just make price caps useless. The limit should be based on one or the other, not both. Plus it takes something that is unique to TK and gives it to other races.
    Price and upkeep aren't enough because of global recruitment, which means that you need just one copy of each military building, and then you can build up your economy everywhere, swimming in money. The game has no concept of military infrastructure or manpower. If it was a WWII game, then no amount of strategic bombing and losses could ever slow down a nation, because as long as you have money in the bank you can recruit armies. That's obviously nonsense.
    Another problem is that there are other game mechanics that push you towards all-elite stacks. I don't consider having the odd all-elite stack to be a problem (concentration of elite units is a valid tactic with plenty of historical precedent), but when every stack you have HAS to be one or otherwise you're just gimping yourself? That's a problem that needs to be addressed, from multiple angles.

    Putting soft caps on elite units based on infrastructure is one such angle. It gives you a reason to build more military infrastructure to support more elite units, with the tradeoff of having less building slots that can be dedicated to enhancing your economy and supporting a greater force of less elite units.

    Now, these soft caps can be fairly generous: we wouldn't be looking at a situation like with the Tomb Kings where you'd be getting just one top-tier unit from a tier 5 building. Instead, I'd imagine something along the lines of, say, the top High Elf dragon building giving you a handful of Star Dragons along with lesser dragons and a significant cohort of Dragon Princes, possibly enough to fill out an entire Caledor-themed stack off the one building slot if you were so inclined. But if you wanted more, you'd need more infrastructure.
  • MeGa_N00B#2436MeGa_N00B#2436 Registered Users Posts: 1,142
    Xenos7 said:

    LolTHELol said:

    Xenos7 said:

    LolTHELol said:

    Xenos7 said:

    It's a dynamic cap. Just build more of its building. If anything the same mechanics should be extended to every elite unit.

    Sorry but there is already limit on elites, it is called price and upkeep. These 2 things that TK do not have for their units, that is why they have caps on units based on their buildings, it is different style of play.

    For other races also including building caps will just make price caps useless. The limit should be based on one or the other, not both. Plus it takes something that is unique to TK and gives it to other races.
    Price and upkeep aren't enough because of global recruitment, which means that you need just one copy of each military building, and then you can build up your economy everywhere, swimming in money. The game has no concept of military infrastructure or manpower. If it was a WWII game, then no amount of strategic bombing and losses could ever slow down a nation, because as long as you have money in the bank you can recruit armies. That's obviously nonsense.
    Money or income buildings in this game are like a metaphor for whatever makes your armies function like the dark magic for Vampires and so on. So you can think of them as your supply lines.

    So if this was a WW2 game losing ton of your cities would cripple your war effort greatly even if you did not lose your recruitment buildings base, since you would still would not have enough money or income to field as many or as elite armies. Maybe you could still recruit more units but you will be in a deficit or worse.

    Lastly if you had just one recruitment base that destruction of it, combined with the destruction of enough income supplying bases would just equal to untimely game over for you.
    It never happens. There is no real reason to build multiple recruitment bases because the AI just can't, and indeed shouldn't, attack the heartland of your empire bypassing the outer provinces. Think about it: what happens in game is that you recruit people from everywhere, then ship them to a single barracks, train them, then ship them back to the four corners of the world. And this allows you to swim in money. You can't tell me this makes any sense.

    Recruiting units does not have to make sense since it is a game. What you are identify here is an issue you are having with the global recruitment logic but what you want is the secondary artificial cap on units (on top of cost and upkeep) because you want every player to build more recruitment buildings.

    This is no solution to your problem, other than limiting the game play for ton of people who got used to and enjoy it.
    Again what you are really mentioning is problems with the AI, that it does not target my one and only recruitment base which logically should be its main target with my highest income providing bases.

    All of the issues people here are mentioning even with doom sacks are due to AI problems reflected in game due to cheats given to it.

    Lastly recruitment from your home base actually makes a ton of sense in real world. Do you think after doing to D-Day USA recruited forces from Germany? Did they establish Barracks there for recruitment? Of course not, also the reinforcement form the home base came in faster due to now safer supply lines with the home land.

    So no I am against a secondary artificial cap on units. It should be income (upkeep and costs) or buildings. Not both.

    However, I always say the AI is just dumb more often than not and cheats but this is its own issue, trying to solve it with secondary caps is like solving siege AI problems with single walls.
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038
    edited September 2019
    LolTHELol said:

    Xenos7 said:

    LolTHELol said:

    Xenos7 said:

    LolTHELol said:

    Xenos7 said:

    It's a dynamic cap. Just build more of its building. If anything the same mechanics should be extended to every elite unit.

    Sorry but there is already limit on elites, it is called price and upkeep. These 2 things that TK do not have for their units, that is why they have caps on units based on their buildings, it is different style of play.

    For other races also including building caps will just make price caps useless. The limit should be based on one or the other, not both. Plus it takes something that is unique to TK and gives it to other races.
    Price and upkeep aren't enough because of global recruitment, which means that you need just one copy of each military building, and then you can build up your economy everywhere, swimming in money. The game has no concept of military infrastructure or manpower. If it was a WWII game, then no amount of strategic bombing and losses could ever slow down a nation, because as long as you have money in the bank you can recruit armies. That's obviously nonsense.
    Money or income buildings in this game are like a metaphor for whatever makes your armies function like the dark magic for Vampires and so on. So you can think of them as your supply lines.

    So if this was a WW2 game losing ton of your cities would cripple your war effort greatly even if you did not lose your recruitment buildings base, since you would still would not have enough money or income to field as many or as elite armies. Maybe you could still recruit more units but you will be in a deficit or worse.

    Lastly if you had just one recruitment base that destruction of it, combined with the destruction of enough income supplying bases would just equal to untimely game over for you.
    It never happens. There is no real reason to build multiple recruitment bases because the AI just can't, and indeed shouldn't, attack the heartland of your empire bypassing the outer provinces. Think about it: what happens in game is that you recruit people from everywhere, then ship them to a single barracks, train them, then ship them back to the four corners of the world. And this allows you to swim in money. You can't tell me this makes any sense.

    Recruiting units does not have to make sense since it is a game.
    I'm under the impression games still have to make sense.
    LolTHELol said:

    This is no solution to your problem, other than limiting the game play for ton of people who got used to and enjoy it.
    Again what you are really mentioning is problems with the AI, that it does not target my one and only recruitment base which logically should be its main target with my highest income providing bases.

    I mean, it's not like I care, it's just for the sake of discussion. As long as things are moddable in a game, I'll mod them. I don't play games vanilla if there are mods available. If people feels empowered by elite spam I'll do nothing more than shake my head.
    LolTHELol said:

    Lastly recruitment from your home base actually makes a ton of sense in real world. Do you think after doing to D-Day USA recruited forces from Germany? Did they establish Barracks there for recruitment? Of course not, also the reinforcement form the home base came in faster due to now safer supply lines with the home land.

    No, but the Romans did. Still, there is no point in this comparison because every province you conquer in the game gets immediately populated by your race, so you could theoretically recruit from there, you just need a building. Matter is, there is no point because military buildings in multiple copies are useless. Just like basic units are useless after 50 turns. Having useless things in a game isn't good design.
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