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C.A., please remove faction cap on dread saurians.

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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,395
    LolTHELol said:

    Recruiting units does not have to make sense since it is a game. What you are identify here is an issue you are having with the global recruitment logic but what you want is the secondary artificial cap on units (on top of cost and upkeep) because you want every player to build more recruitment buildings.

    The game is supposed to at least approximate the fictional Warhammer Fantasy world, and part of that fluff is that there are some things that are in fairly limited supply, generally towards the upper tiers. Elf factions, for instance, don't get an unlimited number of dragons just because they have one spot where dragons can be found, bred, and/or trained: units like the Dragon Princes on horseback exist because there aren't enough dragons to go around even though the Elves technically still have the wealth.

    Building additional recruitment infrastructure, in the context of game mechanics, can essentially be viewed as putting into place policies that result in more such units being available. Building more dragon buildings for the High Elves could be viewed as the game mechanical implementation of putting a higher priority on waking more up. Building full Temples of Khaine everywhere would represent instituting training programs for Executioners across your empire rather than just in one city, so you're naturally going to have more to recruit. And if you build more artillery foundries, that doesn't just represent more places where new artillery pieces can be constructed, it also represents having a higher capacity to produce powder, shot, and other supplies for them to fight with.
    LolTHELol said:

    Lastly recruitment from your home base actually makes a ton of sense in real world. Do you think after doing to D-Day USA recruited forces from Germany? Did they establish Barracks there for recruitment? Of course not, also the reinforcement form the home base came in faster due to now safer supply lines with the home land.

    Funny you choose that example. The Germans actually recruited units from captured territories, including France (there are always some, and for some territories such as the Baltic states the Nazis were actually a less bad option than the Soviets), and after D-Day, recruitment of a new French military started pretty much as soon as the territories to do so were liberated (the French even imagined that if the war went long enough, they'd build and supply heavy tanks to the Allies since tanks built in France wouldn't need to be shipped over water and therefore wouldn't be subject to the same weight limits as British- and American-built tanks. The war didn't last long enough, of course). They didn't try recruiting from Germany for a number of reasons, but after Hitler's death the Germans were actually quite eager to offer in the event of a hot war breaking out between the Western Allies and the USSR (there were signs of the Cold War brewing even then, and the post-Hitler German government was hoping it would go hot so they could offer to side with the West and get a similar deal to what the Italians got) - something which did actually happen about ten years later when West Germany joined NATO.

    And that's a relatively modern example. Historically, it was often easier for a conqueror to assimilate a territory and start recruiting from it.

    Naturally, such things don't happen instantaneously, but this is reflected in the game mechanics: even between the same race, conquered settlements require a bit of time and investment before they're back to what they were.
  • Reeks#2417Reeks#2417 Registered Users Posts: 10,255
    What i find hilarious and slightly disturbing is that Ca states in the same stream: 1:No plans to add caps in campaign this is a sandbox game 2: We added caps to the overall number of Dread Saurians one can field

    Do not compute

    Chose a road and stick to it, spare us that contradicting bullcrap thanks.



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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,395
    edited September 2019
    While I didn't see the stream, I'd presume that in the first case they're talking about caps within an army, like has been introduced into single battles. With the latter having been introduced recently, I could see that being something they figure they should address.

    The second is a special thing for what is going to be the most expensive unit in the game which otherwise threatens to render other top-tier Lizardmen units completely obsolete. Think of it as a special mechanic for what is essentially a tier 6 creature.
  • Reeks#2417Reeks#2417 Registered Users Posts: 10,255
    Draxynnic said:

    While I didn't see the stream, I'd presume that in the first case they're talking about caps within an army, like has been introduced into single battles. With the latter having been introduced recently, I could see that being something they figure they should address.

    The second is a special thing for what is going to be the most expensive unit in the game which otherwise threatens to render other top-tier Lizardmen units completely obsolete. Think of it as a special mechanic for what is essentially a tier 6 creature.

    That do not hold water whatsoever sorry, multiple factions already have tier 5 monsters that make other tier 5 monsters obsolete



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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,395
    Reeks said:

    Draxynnic said:

    While I didn't see the stream, I'd presume that in the first case they're talking about caps within an army, like has been introduced into single battles. With the latter having been introduced recently, I could see that being something they figure they should address.

    The second is a special thing for what is going to be the most expensive unit in the game which otherwise threatens to render other top-tier Lizardmen units completely obsolete. Think of it as a special mechanic for what is essentially a tier 6 creature.

    That do not hold water whatsoever sorry, multiple factions already have tier 5 monsters that make other tier 5 monsters obsolete
    Off the top of my head, there aren't any that are objectively better for every purpose except price. That sort of upgrade usually comes with a tier upgrade. There are some which are a bit "why take X when you could take Y", such as giants and cygors, but that's a matter of versatility and practicality: a giant will beat a cygor in melee, it's just that the cygor will be more useful overall in most battles. If you've got other examples, bring them up, but check to make sure that they're actually both tier 5 before you cite them (for instance, Star Dragons are clearly better than Moon Dragons, but Moon Dragons are available at tier 4...)

    And the Dread Saurian isn't just a little over. They appear to have bought into the hype and made it a super-unit even by tier 5 standards, as opposed to the Monstrous Arcanum stats where it actually isn't that much tougher than a Carnosaur. It really is essentially a tier 6.
  • Reeks#2417Reeks#2417 Registered Users Posts: 10,255
    The Dread Saurian is no more tier 6 than the Mammoth was on release, any tier 5 monster taken in groups can do what the Dread Saurian can, it´s in no way unique in what it can do, so to give that a cap while others don´t have one makes no sense.

    Stating "We have no plans to include unit caps in campaign(sandbox yada yada)" and then state on the same stream "We gave Dread Saurian a cap in campaign" is contradicting to say the least, anyone thinking otherwise should really watch the stream again for educational purposes.



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  • MeGa_N00B#2436MeGa_N00B#2436 Registered Users Posts: 1,142
    Reeks said:

    What i find hilarious and slightly disturbing is that Ca states in the same stream: 1:No plans to add caps in campaign this is a sandbox game 2: We added caps to the overall number of Dread Saurians one can field

    Do not compute

    Chose a road and stick to it, spare us that contradicting bullcrap thanks.

    True, this was oddly amusing to watch CA first mention that they did not want to implement caps and after half an hour later state there is a cap for Dread Saruain. It is really weird.

    If they have thought it was very strong for its price why not increase its price and upkeep even more than introduce yet an other silly cap system.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 11,395
    The "taken in groups" is the problem. A lot of the lategame boils down to what makes the best use of an army slot. When a Dread Saurian has about twice the health of an Ancient Steg, 50% more weapon damage, similar ranged damage, and is equal or better on every other stat, why would you ever build two Ancient Stegs when you could build two Dread Saurians?

    More broadly speaking, non-RoR units have previously capped out at 2400 gold. The Dread Saurian is apparently around the 2900 mark. If we assume that the Dread Saurian is genuinely worth that much (and given that it has melee stats comparable to or better than the War Mammoth plus a strong ranged attack with poison, I dare say it does) then what's to stop Lizardmen being flat out the best choice for lategame situations at higher difficulties where slot efficiency is everything? Well, a soft global cap on how many you can have will do that.

    Seriously. I could see the argument that the War Mammoth obsoletes the giant... but it doesn't do so as conclusively as the Dread Saurian does the existing Lizardmen T5s (Engine of the Gods excepted). The War Mammoth is a little better than the Norscan Giant. The Dread Saurian leaves its competition in the dust. It really is a de facto Tier 6.
  • Johnsonman07Johnsonman07 Registered Users Posts: 2
    Hello!
    I just put together my first mod on steam to remove the cap - hopefully this helps, cheers :)
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1863759144
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