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CA, please do not increase the cost of Cold One Chariots.

DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users
Or lords, for that matter. If I understand the changes correctly, the Supreme Sorceress and Morathi will both have their mounted (read: only) cost increased by 100 in addition to the Cold One Chariot cost increase.

Unless these changes come with buffs in other places, this is extremely unwarranted. Right now, pre patch, the DE have maybe 1 favourable MU. They're held afloat by a good number of even MUs making them hard to counter with a couple bans or just two games into a series.

However. With the DLC at least two MUs are being turned on their head and further weakening the weakest elf faction makes no sense.

DE have unfavourable MUs into Skaven, Norsca, HE, WE, Bretonnia, Tomb Kings, and controversial though it may be, Lizard Men. (and imho Beastmen, too, but many people disagree so I will list it as my opinion rather than fact.)

They might have a 60:40 advantage into dwarves, though. Which is nice, dwarves being the popular lads that they are.

Next patch two factions are getting whole new toys, one of which is currently the second strongest faction in the game. As of now, Empire vs DE is one of the most even MUs in the game, but that's going to go mammaries upward in about eight days.

If Dark Elves as a faction are further weakened in addition to this it's going to be a serious struggle for them.

Please, reconsider this change. @CA_Duck help me out, man.

Comments

  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users
    Yeah not sure a bunch of players think Cold One Chariots are overpowered.

    -100 to Giants it should be the same for Hydra then.

    Shades will not be able to shoot Huntsmen, shorter range and no 360.

    I think DE will benefit from the unit capping though.

    Supreme Sorceress is already overpriced base cost from my perspective, Morathi not overpowered because of low HP.

    DE could be low tier if no buffs.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,433Registered Users
    I really like dark elves. But maybe their chariots are overperforming a bit without rampage like it was. And maybe they’ll have other buffs. In general I think dark elves are quite competitive and fun to play and a change to chariot price won’t alter that too much.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 330Registered Users
    These are major nerfs. To my knowledge there have been 0 discussions on this forum or Discord to increase the cost of Morathi, the sorcereress or the cold one chariot. I have no idea where this comes from. QB stats, I suppose. I definitely don't agree with these changes. The supreme sorceress is pretty cheap but also quite useless in melee. She doesn't bring much more to the table than a hero caster, who is cheaper.

    Morathi is strong but very balanced. +100 gold will make her pretty weak compared to Malekith on a dragon, who adds terror, breath attacks and a lot of melee power for not that much extra gold.
  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Posts: 2,598Registered Users
    Cold one chariots are definitely OP, they aren’t far off gorebeast or razorgor chariots and have a long range AP missile attack. It was a different story when their rampage was more of a setback, but the change to primal instincts made them a whole lot more reliable. Maybe +100 is too much though, we’ll see.
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  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 330Registered Users
    edited September 5
    Riggsen said:

    Cold one chariots are definitely OP, they aren’t far off gorebeast or razorgor chariots and have a long range AP missile attack. It was a different story when their rampage was more of a setback, but the change to primal instincts made them a whole lot more reliable. Maybe +100 is too much though, we’ll see.

    Razorgor chariots have primal fury, more speed and way more charge bonus. Combined with a lack of rampage, that makes them a lot more reliable at plowing through infantry without getting bogged down. I can see your point though.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,433Registered Users

    These are major nerfs. To my knowledge there have been 0 discussions on this forum or Discord to increase the cost of Morathi, the sorcereress or the cold one chariot. I have no idea where this comes from. QB stats, I suppose. I definitely don't agree with these changes. The supreme sorceress is pretty cheap but also quite useless in melee. She doesn't bring much more to the table than a hero caster, who is cheaper.

    Morathi is strong but very balanced. +100 gold will make her pretty weak compared to Malekith on a dragon, who adds terror, breath attacks and a lot of melee power for not that much extra gold.

    Most good players I know rely heavily on supremes sourceresses. And Morathi is excellent with her items when mounted. In both cases if you want cheap not also getting cheap mobility is pretty reasonable.
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    These are major nerfs. To my knowledge there have been 0 discussions on this forum or Discord to increase the cost of Morathi, the sorcereress or the cold one chariot. I have no idea where this comes from. QB stats, I suppose. I definitely don't agree with these changes. The supreme sorceress is pretty cheap but also quite useless in melee. She doesn't bring much more to the table than a hero caster, who is cheaper.

    Morathi is strong but very balanced. +100 gold will make her pretty weak compared to Malekith on a dragon, who adds terror, breath attacks and a lot of melee power for not that much extra gold.

    Most good players I know rely heavily on supremes sourceresses. And Morathi is excellent with her items when mounted. In both cases if you want cheap not also getting cheap mobility is pretty reasonable.
    Item. She only has one. The other one is a 200g self handicap with doombolt attached, hahaha.

    That said: DE isn't particularly powerful right now. Why is it "reasonable" to nerf the lords that they rely on, thus further weakening them?

    Supreme Sorceress is cheap because she's a free kill for most characters that catch her, she has no melee value and very low defence. Morathi is expensive already, and mostly used for her debuffs. Neither needs to be nerfed. If other DE lords aren't being picked the answer isn't to bully the ones that are.
  • DerpmaidenDerpmaiden Posts: 94Registered Users
    Personally, I play almost exclusively DE and TK, beside skaven all the other factions you mentioned is manageable with DE. The price increase to cold-one chariot is prolly less impactful than the universal cap that put xbox riders and cold one chariots in the same missle cav pool.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    After Rampage being less problematic there is little surprise that Cold One Chariots got nerfed. They are not just solid chariots, but chariots with AP missile attack that are unlike other chariots are quite strong. Just try armored SEM and chariot in custom game and see how much damage it may deal.
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users
    edited September 5

    Personally, I play almost exclusively DE and TK, beside skaven all the other factions you mentioned is manageable with DE. The price increase to cold-one chariot is prolly less impactful than the universal cap that put xbox riders and cold one chariots in the same missle cav pool.

    A match up doesn't have to be an auto-loss to be unfavourable. Most unfavourable MUs in the game right now are manageable. Xiphos routinely beats Brets with WE. It's still an MU that makes most people pull their hair out.
    tank3487 said:

    After Rampage being less problematic there is little surprise that Cold One Chariots got nerfed. They are not just solid chariots, but chariots with AP missile attack that are unlike other chariots are quite strong. Just try armored SEM and chariot in custom game and see how much damage it may deal.

    I acknowledge this above. The chariot missile attack is very decent over time on large targets. armoured SEMs are not what the chariot is going to be going for, however, and while it's absolute damage per-arrow is high,the unit DPS is low, and using the chariot for its missile attacks is not very practical unless the enemy cannot catch it or shoot it, and you also don't need the melee pressure. At 66 speed that's not a common scenario, and the chariot is almost always better used to help your units win the melee than to slowly chip down the monster killing your troops.
  • SielgaudysSielgaudys Posts: 43Registered Users
    Why do they always nerf dark elves....
  • hanenhanen Posts: 347Registered Users
    The Dark Elf roster is pretty big with lots of viable choices.

    I agree that these changes might look unnecessary but they should hardly impact most games anyway.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,069Registered Users
    This is NOT a dark elf exclusive change, by the looks of it, ALL lords in game getting price tweaks, slann, orc heroes, all of them, morathi is no exception
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  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 550Registered Users
    Is there a patch note or dev diary about this?
  • ystyst Posts: 6,069Registered Users
    Next week as usual for patch normally
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,715Registered Users
    Delude said:

    Or lords, for that matter. If I understand the changes correctly, the Supreme Sorceress and Morathi will both have their mounted (read: only) cost increased by 100 in addition to the Cold One Chariot cost increase.

    Unless these changes come with buffs in other places, this is extremely unwarranted. Right now, pre patch, the DE have maybe 1 favourable MU. They're held afloat by a good number of even MUs making them hard to counter with a couple bans or just two games into a series.

    However. With the DLC at least two MUs are being turned on their head and further weakening the weakest elf faction makes no sense.

    DE have unfavourable MUs into Skaven, Norsca, HE, WE, Bretonnia, Tomb Kings, and controversial though it may be, Lizard Men. (and imho Beastmen, too, but many people disagree so I will list it as my opinion rather than fact.)

    They might have a 60:40 advantage into dwarves, though. Which is nice, dwarves being the popular lads that they are.

    Next patch two factions are getting whole new toys, one of which is currently the second strongest faction in the game. As of now, Empire vs DE is one of the most even MUs in the game, but that's going to go mammaries upward in about eight days.

    If Dark Elves as a faction are further weakened in addition to this it's going to be a serious struggle for them.

    Please, reconsider this change. @CA_Duck help me out, man.

    You sure this is not part of the foot version getting cheaper by the same amount?
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,297Registered Users
    Riggsen said:

    Cold one chariots are definitely OP, they aren’t far off gorebeast or razorgor chariots and have a long range AP missile attack. It was a different story when their rampage was more of a setback, but the change to primal instincts made them a whole lot more reliable. Maybe +100 is too much though, we’ll see.

    yeah they are slightly OP but 100 would be too much in one go. I'd start with +50.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    That's good news. I really want to be nerf until no one plays with DE.
    I hope to make it into a faction that no one else is doing by making it full of disadvantages and no advantages.
    thanks for the great patch over and over. It doesn't matter i'll win with my hyper-micro. of course, other factions make it far easier to win, but it doesn't matter. B)
  • SielgaudysSielgaudys Posts: 43Registered Users
    keroro7 said:

    That's good news. I really want to be nerf until no one plays with DE.
    I hope to make it into a faction that no one else is doing by making it full of disadvantages and no advantages.
    thanks for the great patch over and over. It doesn't matter i'll win with my hyper-micro. of course, other factions make it far easier to win, but it doesn't matter. B)

    Wew, don't play with my emotions.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 330Registered Users
    I understand the concern with cold one chariots in isolation, but look at the bigger picture of how it changes the DE match-ups.

    DE vs HE is currently considered slightly HE favored or at worst even by many tournament players. Affordable AP chariots and a death caster lord are some of the few strengths of the DE roster compared to the HE roster. A build with 2 chariots and death caster gets -300 gold now. That's pretty huge for an already tough match-up.

    Similar story for DE vs WE. Tough for DE and now often 200 gold tougher.

    Conversely, which match-ups that are currently too easy for DE get improved by these nerfs? Chaos is the only one I can think of and I personally don't typically bring any of these units in that match-up, except occasionally 1 chariot in a mobile build.

    Plus, unless some of the more useless lords get majorly buffed, I think nerfing the supreme sorceress and morathi will just make Malekith even more of a dominant choice than he already is. Right now DE basically have 3 competitive options and with 2 of them being nerfed, Malekith may become Dark Larry.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,715Registered Users
    Is it confirmed that morathi is not cheaper on foot? It's seems many lords have this change this patch, cheaper base cost higher mount cost.

    Agree with lloupi otherwise, 50 g might be enough for a start. The unit is very very cost efficient. Do you know that DE does not receive other buffs to compensate? In isolation + 100 g could very well be warranted for the unit even if the roster as a whole is balanced...
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users
    edited September 5

    Is it confirmed that morathi is not cheaper on foot? It's seems many lords have this change this patch, cheaper base cost higher mount cost.

    Agree with lloupi otherwise, 50 g might be enough for a start. The unit is very very cost efficient. Do you know that DE does not receive other buffs to compensate? In isolation + 100 g could very well be warranted for the unit even if the roster as a whole is balanced...

    Morathi and the Supreme Sorceress' cost is unchanged on foot.

    I do not know every change that's happening in the patch, so my information is incomplete, but I don't know of any buffs to DE, and I have no reason to suspect there will be any so far.
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Posts: 489Registered Users

    Is it confirmed that morathi is not cheaper on foot? It's seems many lords have this change this patch, cheaper base cost higher mount cost.

    Agree with lloupi otherwise, 50 g might be enough for a start. The unit is very very cost efficient. Do you know that DE does not receive other buffs to compensate? In isolation + 100 g could very well be warranted for the unit even if the roster as a whole is balanced...

    oh wow sounds like they may have used that idea I brought up a long time ago then of increasing mount cost while reducing on foot cost by the same amount?
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users
    edited September 5

    Is it confirmed that morathi is not cheaper on foot? It's seems many lords have this change this patch, cheaper base cost higher mount cost.

    Agree with lloupi otherwise, 50 g might be enough for a start. The unit is very very cost efficient. Do you know that DE does not receive other buffs to compensate? In isolation + 100 g could very well be warranted for the unit even if the roster as a whole is balanced...

    oh wow sounds like they may have used that idea I brought up a long time ago then of increasing mount cost while reducing on foot cost by the same amount?
    Generally, yes. The dreadlords, lokhir, Hellebron, and Malekith all got a 100g reduction to their cost on foot. They're still not going to be taken on foot, (or in Hellebron's case at all, lol) but it's nice I guess. Morathi and the Supreme Sorceress kept their base price. On foot there won't be a change, but mounted it seems like it's going to be yet another 100g in the bin.
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 79Registered Users
    although i understand the worries we dont see the whole picture yet so it might be not so big nerf in the end..
    we will see in a couple of days, not everybody will be happy with results i guess..
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,179Registered Users
    Cold One Chariots most definitely needed a big nerf. They are currently the best 3-entity chariot unit in the game and this is due to their missiles causing a lot of damage (expending them all is not hard either since they also fire while in melee) and their charge and melee damage being AP.

    That said, I think the DE roster is balanced overall though it is true that there aren’t any “super OP” units in it if you exclude the RoRs, while many other rosters do have such units and as such I can understand where OP is coming from.

    That said, I disagree that DE have so many unfavorable matchups. The only ones I will admit are WE and Coast, the rest are seriously even at least.

    About UP units to buff for DE, low hanging fruit would be Bolt Throwers (worse copy overall than HE one in spite of higher fire rate), regular War Hydra (running away to regen and coming back is kinda its thing - unfortunately, for some reason in an actual battle it doesn’t work that way most of the times).

    Dark Riders and Corsairs also need a small buff (let’s say +5 LD +2 MA for DR and +1-2 BvI for Corsairs). Dread Knights would work best if rebalanced into a 45 model unit, they are not bad but the 36 model count is easy to abuse.
  • SielgaudysSielgaudys Posts: 43Registered Users
    If they nerf cold one chariots than I sure as hell hope they buff cold one/dread knights and dark riders, corsairs too, hopefully.
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