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About Crossbowmen and HE archers

cool_ladcool_lad Senior MemberIndiaPosts: 2,272Registered Users
So, the new patch has made it so that Crossbowmen have better damage per shot and are slower to fire than HE archers, which is a good thing. However, this has also caused the Crossbowmen to be bumped up in price to above HE archers (since they are, before the changes, the same cost).

What this means is that the HE archers now cost less than Crossbowmen, while still being much better (courtesy their much better range and accuracy) as ranged units and coming in units that are just as numerous.

TBH I think that the solution here is to make the HE archers as a unit a lot more expensive, and have a general look at the costs for the MP, which seem to be getting all over the place with little consideration for the TT, lore or Campaign.
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Comments

  • ystyst Posts: 6,066Registered Users
    They r trying to seperate bows and xbows, one being rapid other slower and higher ap. Xbows r now slightly less efficient vs chaffs and much worse in missile duels. Lets see how they play out
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  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,357Registered Users

    6 ap > 3 AP

    This.
    Also, Xbows will now do 18 non-AP damage

    That means we're looking at 1224 non-AP damage and 408 AP per volley, for a total of 1632, as opposed to 1088+204 for a total of 1292. Factor in reload time and Empire Xbows will have better DPS even with the drop in RoF, and the AP advantage is massive.
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  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Posts: 1,929Registered Users
    I'm fine with this, the Empire... despite what everyone wishes... The Empire flavor is gunpowder, reckless&cheep innovations/productions and sigmarite religiosity. Bows really shouldn't have a high pick rate in the Empire, crossbows or otherwise.

    Where as the HE are a bow faction. Bows should have a high pick rate with in their meta because this is part of the 'elf' flavor.

    Like wise, the flavor of a faction should be exceptional when compared to other factions.

    I feel like this is something we have completely forgotten in the discussion to balance the game out. Now everything is becoming generic.

    Archers being added for exp intrudes on Empires thematic, their flavor. What's the point of Archers, why didn't they just make Free Company Militia's competent.
    ...

    Empire has tools to deal with 180 range bows, it's actually pretty fun match up because it's not just pitting 160 vs 160, that there is a requirement to be a little clever in this match up is great.
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  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Posts: 1,929Registered Users

    6 ap > 3 AP

    Oh... that'st he change...

    wtf is that about
    Faith, Steel and Gunpowder Bows
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    6 ap > 3 AP

    This.
    Also, Xbows will now do 18 non-AP damage

    That means we're looking at 1224 non-AP damage and 408 AP per volley, for a total of 1632, as opposed to 1088+204 for a total of 1292. Factor in reload time and Empire Xbows will have better DPS even with the drop in RoF, and the AP advantage is massive.
    Range and accuracy favors Archers.

    I think Archers could use 1 less AP, their rate to rout an Arachnarok is not that slow.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,746Registered Users

    Wyvern2 said:

    6 ap > 3 AP

    This.
    Also, Xbows will now do 18 non-AP damage

    That means we're looking at 1224 non-AP damage and 408 AP per volley, for a total of 1632, as opposed to 1088+204 for a total of 1292. Factor in reload time and Empire Xbows will have better DPS even with the drop in RoF, and the AP advantage is massive.
    Range and accuracy favors Archers.

    I think Archers could use 1 less AP, their rate to rout an Arachnarok is not that slow.
    They got exactly same accuracy and xbows will deal with archnarok way quicker than archers.

    -1ap......meanwhile orc arcehrs have 6
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users

    Wyvern2 said:

    6 ap > 3 AP

    This.
    Also, Xbows will now do 18 non-AP damage

    That means we're looking at 1224 non-AP damage and 408 AP per volley, for a total of 1632, as opposed to 1088+204 for a total of 1292. Factor in reload time and Empire Xbows will have better DPS even with the drop in RoF, and the AP advantage is massive.
    Range and accuracy favors Archers.

    I think Archers could use 1 less AP, their rate to rout an Arachnarok is not that slow.
    They got exactly same accuracy and xbows will deal with archnarok way quicker than archers.

    -1ap......meanwhile orc arcehrs have 6
    Same accuracy? OP said worse accuracy which matches my experience.

    Orc and and Crossbows are not as reliable generally.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,746Registered Users
    edited September 7

    Wyvern2 said:

    6 ap > 3 AP

    This.
    Also, Xbows will now do 18 non-AP damage

    That means we're looking at 1224 non-AP damage and 408 AP per volley, for a total of 1632, as opposed to 1088+204 for a total of 1292. Factor in reload time and Empire Xbows will have better DPS even with the drop in RoF, and the AP advantage is massive.
    Range and accuracy favors Archers.

    I think Archers could use 1 less AP, their rate to rout an Arachnarok is not that slow.
    They got exactly same accuracy and xbows will deal with archnarok way quicker than archers.

    -1ap......meanwhile orc arcehrs have 6
    Same accuracy? OP said worse accuracy which matches my experience.

    Orc and and Crossbows are not as reliable generally.
    well they dont have worse, they got same.
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users

    Wyvern2 said:

    6 ap > 3 AP

    This.
    Also, Xbows will now do 18 non-AP damage

    That means we're looking at 1224 non-AP damage and 408 AP per volley, for a total of 1632, as opposed to 1088+204 for a total of 1292. Factor in reload time and Empire Xbows will have better DPS even with the drop in RoF, and the AP advantage is massive.
    Range and accuracy favors Archers.

    I think Archers could use 1 less AP, their rate to rout an Arachnarok is not that slow.
    They got exactly same accuracy and xbows will deal with archnarok way quicker than archers.

    -1ap......meanwhile orc arcehrs have 6
    Same accuracy? OP said worse accuracy which matches my experience.

    Orc and and Crossbows are not as reliable generally.
    well they dont have worse, they got same.
    I guess the range then. At Orc/Crossbow max range the HE archers have more accuracy at that distance since it's not their max range.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,746Registered Users

    Wyvern2 said:

    6 ap > 3 AP

    This.
    Also, Xbows will now do 18 non-AP damage

    That means we're looking at 1224 non-AP damage and 408 AP per volley, for a total of 1632, as opposed to 1088+204 for a total of 1292. Factor in reload time and Empire Xbows will have better DPS even with the drop in RoF, and the AP advantage is massive.
    Range and accuracy favors Archers.

    I think Archers could use 1 less AP, their rate to rout an Arachnarok is not that slow.
    They got exactly same accuracy and xbows will deal with archnarok way quicker than archers.

    -1ap......meanwhile orc arcehrs have 6
    Same accuracy? OP said worse accuracy which matches my experience.

    Orc and and Crossbows are not as reliable generally.
    well they dont have worse, they got same.
    I guess the range then. At Orc/Crossbow max range the HE archers have more accuracy at that distance since it's not their max range.
    They don't either due to calabiration area, test it out, its quite simple can do it vs AI if u want.

    What do you actually base this statement on that they got worse accuracy?
  • Smitty404Smitty404 Posts: 302Registered Users
    HE archers should be top tier, so I have no problem with them being better than X Bows.

    But right now HE are very overtuned, having top tier infantry, spearman, chariots, artillery, LL, and magic. Now they are even better at out skirmishing other factions.

    I would like to see HE differentiate themselves as more of a skirmish faction with good archers and less heavy infantry builds.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,357Registered Users
    Smitty404 said:

    HE archers should be top tier, so I have no problem with them being better than X Bows.

    But right now HE are very overtuned, having top tier infantry, spearman, chariots, artillery, LL, and magic. Now they are even better at out skirmishing other factions.

    I would like to see HE differentiate themselves as more of a skirmish faction with good archers and less heavy infantry builds.

    What? Their artillery is decidedly mediocre(might be better post buff, but ATM there's basically no situation where youd want a BT over a cannon), their spearmen are overpriced and their elite infantry often lacks the versatility and consistency of other factions top tier elites, in large part due to the reliance on MP/MM. Sure the faction has strengths, but to call them overtuned is imo ludicrous.
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,746Registered Users
    Smitty404 said:

    HE archers should be top tier, so I have no problem with them being better than X Bows.

    But right now HE are very overtuned, having top tier infantry, spearman, chariots, artillery, LL, and magic. Now they are even better at out skirmishing other factions.

    I would like to see HE differentiate themselves as more of a skirmish faction with good archers and less heavy infantry builds.

    ...HE arty is at most average
    Spearmen are at most average
    Elite infantry...PG are good, other are meh
    Chairots are meh only noble chariot is good
    Magic is very good
    LL have 2 good ones, 2 meh ones


    Not sure why you feel HE are overtunned.
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Posts: 215Registered Users
    This is same as saying Brets cav is better then other similar types heavy cav. It should be so. You dont compare unit against unit, but roster against roster.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,171Registered Users
    just to be clear, IF HE archers are top tier, and after the numerous buffs to other archers I am not sure they are anymore, we are talking about maybe 5% better than something like Empire Crossbowmen. Compare them to something like Quarrelers, what you get for 600g is so much it almost looks like daylight robbery.
  • AsamuAsamu Posts: 581Registered Users
    edited September 7

    Wyvern2 said:

    6 ap > 3 AP

    This.
    Also, Xbows will now do 18 non-AP damage

    That means we're looking at 1224 non-AP damage and 408 AP per volley, for a total of 1632, as opposed to 1088+204 for a total of 1292. Factor in reload time and Empire Xbows will have better DPS even with the drop in RoF, and the AP advantage is massive.
    Range and accuracy favors Archers.

    I think Archers could use 1 less AP, their rate to rout an Arachnarok is not that slow.
    They got exactly same accuracy and xbows will deal with archnarok way quicker than archers.

    -1ap......meanwhile orc arcehrs have 6
    Same accuracy? OP said worse accuracy which matches my experience.

    Orc and and Crossbows are not as reliable generally.
    Crossbows actually have a smaller calibration area (not really that significant though, since they're at 5.1 and 5.7), but have a shorter calibration range at 120 vs 140, so HE Archers should ~4% more accurate vs a stationary target.
    Faster projectiles will generally equate to better accuracy in practice, as it's more difficult to dodge them, so projectile arc and velocity can also be relevant, but I haven't looked those up.

    The cost increase on crossbows was probably unnecessary, but it's not like they're awful; the biggest problem with them is that they're not specialized, so in almost all cases, archers, huntsman, or handguns will be better; it's just a matter of picking to the match up.

    The change works out to a very slight increase to DPS for crossbows, and the increase damage per volley makes them better in shoot-outs against other missile units, where the initial damage makes more difference. It also lets them deal significantly more damage with their full ammunition.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,379Registered Users
    Cost-effective strong archers are part of the High Elf thematic, no need to change them at this point as they are fine as a unit.

    Now with Huntsman and archers for Empire it will be quite interesting as Archers with Light armour might be worth experimenting with as well.
  • Smitty404Smitty404 Posts: 302Registered Users
    edited September 7
    Green0 said:

    just to be clear, IF HE archers are top tier, and after the numerous buffs to other archers I am not sure they are anymore, we are talking about maybe 5% better than something like Empire Crossbowmen. Compare them to something like Quarrelers, what you get for 600g is so much it almost looks like daylight robbery.

    I didn't say they are top tier. I said they should be to go along with their faction strength along with other elf factions.

    Their ultimate placement post patch will have to come after everyone gets to play and test.
  • Smitty404Smitty404 Posts: 302Registered Users

    Smitty404 said:

    HE archers should be top tier, so I have no problem with them being better than X Bows.

    But right now HE are very overtuned, having top tier infantry, spearman, chariots, artillery, LL, and magic. Now they are even better at out skirmishing other factions.

    I would like to see HE differentiate themselves as more of a skirmish faction with good archers and less heavy infantry builds.

    ...HE arty is at most average
    Spearmen are at most average
    Elite infantry...PG are good, other are meh
    Chairots are meh only noble chariot is good
    Magic is very good
    LL have 2 good ones, 2 meh ones


    Not sure why you feel HE are overtunned.
    HE Bolt Thrower is a very good unit. It is best in the game at sniping out other artillery pieces. It is very accurate with a good firing arc, is cheap, and I believe the buff to multi shot will make that mode of fire a lot more usefull.

    HE infantry is very good. I'm not even going to argue this as it is pointless but their mid tier and top tier infantry plus their anti-large spearman are very good combined with martial mastery.

    Noble chariot is what everyone brings, and it is a very good unit.

    The point being that we don't need another Empire that is good at everything. HE should carve out their own niche with powerfull skirmishing and magic, but have their infantry tuned down some to give them more of an identity.
  • Smitty404Smitty404 Posts: 302Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    Smitty404 said:

    HE archers should be top tier, so I have no problem with them being better than X Bows.

    But right now HE are very overtuned, having top tier infantry, spearman, chariots, artillery, LL, and magic. Now they are even better at out skirmishing other factions.

    I would like to see HE differentiate themselves as more of a skirmish faction with good archers and less heavy infantry builds.

    What? Their artillery is decidedly mediocre(might be better post buff, but ATM there's basically no situation where youd want a BT over a cannon), their spearmen are overpriced and their elite infantry often lacks the versatility and consistency of other factions top tier elites, in large part due to the reliance on MP/MM. Sure the faction has strengths, but to call them overtuned is imo ludicrous.
    HE BT are an excellent artillery piece. They very cheaply snipe out other artillery pieces with ease. Prior to the patch they would dominate even cannons in real life battles because it was so easy to get to the cannons with chariots and flying units.

    Post patch cannon duels may be different, but the HE BT is one of the most cost effective and versatile artillery units in the game.

    My point was just to say that it is better for the HE to become more Elf like and occupy the niche where skirmish is more important to them than just being a well rounded faction like Empire is.
  • GallowmereWarlockGallowmereWarlock Posts: 244Registered Users
    I think you want some wood elves :p
    <3
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Posts: 215Registered Users
    Yes, you guys are talking about WE. Among all elves HE take middle ground. Their infantry is good, but it is also very expensive. I dont know why you think HE should not be versatile. They literally fulfill the role of Empire in Warhammer 2. They are like that faction which you get in tutorial.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,357Registered Users
    Smitty404 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Smitty404 said:

    HE archers should be top tier, so I have no problem with them being better than X Bows.

    But right now HE are very overtuned, having top tier infantry, spearman, chariots, artillery, LL, and magic. Now they are even better at out skirmishing other factions.

    I would like to see HE differentiate themselves as more of a skirmish faction with good archers and less heavy infantry builds.

    What? Their artillery is decidedly mediocre(might be better post buff, but ATM there's basically no situation where youd want a BT over a cannon), their spearmen are overpriced and their elite infantry often lacks the versatility and consistency of other factions top tier elites, in large part due to the reliance on MP/MM. Sure the faction has strengths, but to call them overtuned is imo ludicrous.
    HE BT are an excellent artillery piece. They very cheaply snipe out other artillery pieces with ease. Prior to the patch they would dominate even cannons in real life battles because it was so easy to get to the cannons with chariots and flying units.

    Post patch cannon duels may be different, but the HE BT is one of the most cost effective and versatile artillery units in the game.

    My point was just to say that it is better for the HE to become more Elf like and occupy the niche where skirmish is more important to them than just being a well rounded faction like Empire is.
    Cheap or easy?
    No. They lose to both empire and dorf cannons, and barely 50-50 a wlc. The only cannon they beat is the carronade. And their versatility compared to cannons is weak.
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  • tzurugbytzurugby Posts: 263Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:



    Cheap or easy?
    No. They lose to both empire and dorf cannons, and barely 50-50 a wlc. The only cannon they beat is the carronade. And their versatility compared to cannons is weak.

    I don't know.... cannons are very strong arty pieces (*I personally think they are the best though I don't have the testing to back that up), but the HE Arty does not seem weak in terms of "versatility" from the outside looking in. Its very accurate, has a decent rate of fire, okay ark, compact models and and alternate ammo type. It's certainly not as good as a cannon, but not weak in terms of versatility compared to one as they seem to fit pretty similar roles.

    Hopefully the upcoming Bonus Versus Infantry buff can get their other ammo type up to snuff, and if so, I don't see how it won't be even more versatile than a cannon.... unless I'm missing some use cases.





  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,171Registered Users
    Smitty404 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Smitty404 said:

    HE archers should be top tier, so I have no problem with them being better than X Bows.

    But right now HE are very overtuned, having top tier infantry, spearman, chariots, artillery, LL, and magic. Now they are even better at out skirmishing other factions.

    I would like to see HE differentiate themselves as more of a skirmish faction with good archers and less heavy infantry builds.

    What? Their artillery is decidedly mediocre(might be better post buff, but ATM there's basically no situation where youd want a BT over a cannon), their spearmen are overpriced and their elite infantry often lacks the versatility and consistency of other factions top tier elites, in large part due to the reliance on MP/MM. Sure the faction has strengths, but to call them overtuned is imo ludicrous.
    HE BT are an excellent artillery piece. They very cheaply snipe out other artillery pieces with ease. Prior to the patch they would dominate even cannons in real life battles because it was so easy to get to the cannons with chariots and flying units.

    Post patch cannon duels may be different, but the HE BT is one of the most cost effective and versatile artillery units in the game.

    My point was just to say that it is better for the HE to become more Elf like and occupy the niche where skirmish is more important to them than just being a well rounded faction like Empire is.
    stop spreading misinformation, HE BT don't beat Cannons.
  • Smitty404Smitty404 Posts: 302Registered Users

    I think you want some wood elves :p

    No. I understand they are both elf factions and HE is supposed to have good infantry along with skirmish and magic.

    But the point I am making is they are too heavily skewed towards infantry builds in MP.

    To make them feel more like an elf faction they should be tweaked a little so that their skirmish is better and their infantry is a little nerfed.

    Nothing major. I would just nerf Martial Mastery a little bit, raise the cost of the HE BT by 100, but make their skirmishers stronger. I would have to see how they play post patch before I give any numbers.
  • Smitty404Smitty404 Posts: 302Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Smitty404 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Smitty404 said:

    HE archers should be top tier, so I have no problem with them being better than X Bows.

    But right now HE are very overtuned, having top tier infantry, spearman, chariots, artillery, LL, and magic. Now they are even better at out skirmishing other factions.

    I would like to see HE differentiate themselves as more of a skirmish faction with good archers and less heavy infantry builds.

    What? Their artillery is decidedly mediocre(might be better post buff, but ATM there's basically no situation where youd want a BT over a cannon), their spearmen are overpriced and their elite infantry often lacks the versatility and consistency of other factions top tier elites, in large part due to the reliance on MP/MM. Sure the faction has strengths, but to call them overtuned is imo ludicrous.
    HE BT are an excellent artillery piece. They very cheaply snipe out other artillery pieces with ease. Prior to the patch they would dominate even cannons in real life battles because it was so easy to get to the cannons with chariots and flying units.

    Post patch cannon duels may be different, but the HE BT is one of the most cost effective and versatile artillery units in the game.

    My point was just to say that it is better for the HE to become more Elf like and occupy the niche where skirmish is more important to them than just being a well rounded faction like Empire is.
    stop spreading misinformation, HE BT don't beat Cannons.
    You have to take their lower cost into account, their versatility against all targets, and accuracy even in different terrain types.

    Cannons can be finicky and if the elevations are not right cannons can miss a lot more. The firing arc of the HE BT gives them much more consistency.

    Besides, cannons aren't the only artillery unit in the game. The point is HE BT bring tremendous value in almost all match ups. They are very cost effective and versatile.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,171Registered Users
    Smitty404 said:


    You have to take their lower cost into account, their versatility against all targets, and accuracy even in different terrain types.

    stop spreading misinformation please, Bolt Throwers are not more versatile. Vs infantry, a Cannon has equivalent or better performance on top of being more bursty vs large targets, harder to dodge and the artillery piece also happens to have more HP which helps in artillery duels. On top of this, Cannons also have more range and this only for 100g more which is a steal.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,746Registered Users
    edited September 8
    i keep hearing this missinformation over and its been shown and proven each time that its not true.

    Dwarf cannons SMASHES BT, so does empire cannon, even if you account for cost. DO some testing please.

    BT performe WORSE than cannon vs ALLLLLL possible targets, please do some tests.

    Cannons dmg output is the same as BT while using 1/2 the ammo, its not even funny how much better cannons are vs cav also or when getting flank shots.

    If you compare cannon to BT than it seems as cannons need +250g, which obviously im not suggesting, just that BT is quite **** when you cmpare the two.

    hopefully this patch makes multi shot worth it and the BT cost will be justified.
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