Do the Lizardmen seem weak in competetive play?

Nielspeterdejong

Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the new models and units! However, nothing stands really out, and most of the cool stuff is far too overpriced to be used in competitive play.

The Empire gets Wolfheart and the ROR lion carts, which have shown to be ridiculously good at taking out large targets.

Aside from perhaps Nakai, if you don't use him up front but a bit conservatively, and the Horned Ones, I don't see the Lizardmen have many good new tools that might help them out. Almost 9 out of 10 matches that we've seen so far between the Empire and The Lizardmen always end in the favor of the Empire.

Or am I missing something?

angry_rat_lover#9467

None of the new units stand out, they are all mediocre and overpriced

Nielspeterdejong

angry_rat_lover said:

None of the new units stand out, they are all mediocre and overpriced

Pretty much yeah >.>

angry_rat_lover#9467

Nielspeterdejong said:

angry_rat_lover said:

None of the new units stand out, they are all mediocre and overpriced

Pretty much yeah >.>

I blame MP balancing and CA wanting to cater to e-celebs

Patrikseve#8733

Arent the Lizards a top pick and a very strong faction mp wise. I dont think they are considered weak instead I think many better players regard them as one of the strongest picks among the faction pool. But maybe the meta and the faction changed since last I look.

Otters007#7127

The new kroxigors look awesome, I am sure they will have their uses. New kroxigor lords and Nakai seem like they will be competitive aswell.

Ultimately, lizards are considered a top tier faction multiplayer wise. They have so many tools and can play in so many different ways.

steam_164511531915TqL1vw0

Wolfheart abilities needs a tone down. Its beyond OP.

Nielspeterdejong

Otters007 said:

The new kroxigors look awesome, I am sure they will have their uses. New kroxigor lords and Nakai seem like they will be competitive aswell.

Ultimately, lizards are considered a top tier faction multiplayer wise. They have so many tools and can play in so many different ways.

What army could the Lizardmen build that could fight Markus and the ROR cart? The Umbral Tide?

Valkaar#2507

Lizardmen overall are not weak. They are probably the strongest/most flexible faction that is melee/rush oriented in the game. And they can still crush all but the most powerful ranged factions. Overall power wise, the Lizardmen are in the top 5.

But yeah this is primarily a ‘campaign only’ DLC. Sort of the opposite of the Empire ... who only got like ONE flashy campaign unit but a bunch of stuff that should be very ladder competitive.

#21546

I think LM are pretty strong, they have most of their matchup balanced and lther than Kroak blob are well balanced imo.

They have a good variety of units and playstyle. They are not weak by any strech of the word.

But yeah new units seem really subpar other than the Boxing Kroxis who look pretty **** decent

#21546

Green0 said:

Nielspeterdejong said:

Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the new models and units! However, nothing stands really out, and most of the cool stuff is far too overpriced to be used in competitive play.

The Empire gets Wolfheart and the ROR lion carts, which have shown to be ridiculously good at taking out large targets.

Aside from perhaps Nakai, if you don't use him up front but a bit conservatively, and the Horned Ones, I don't see the Lizardmen have many good new tools that might help them out. Almost 9 out of 10 matches that we've seen so far between the Empire and The Lizardmen always end in the favor of the Empire.

Or am I missing something?

you know these are showcase matches yeah where pretty much each player picks troll units to show their viewers what the DLC is about and wins or losses are not to be taken seriously yeah?

Give it at least 2 weeks before judging, my impression as a fairly seasoned player is that Lizardmen will be top3 if not top2 after the DLC drops.

I for once don't think the DLC will make them get into a better spot. Most units are meh, DS wont be competitive imo other than vs VC, razors seem really weak, only the kroxis will be cool. But with the nerfs to Kroak and all I think theyll stay in the same area of power

Nielspeterdejong

Could you please make the rampage removal like it was on the tabletop, and bring back cold blooded healing?

With this I mean that you could add a area of effect around Skink heroes and Lord’s, that removed rampage effects. It will make the Skink Chief more desirable as a bonus.

And give the Lizardmen lords and heroes the cold blooded healing back. Allow this to significantly heal a target and add a 20% Ward save, but lowers their MA and speed significantly.

The Dark Elves have the murderous prowess, the Vampire coast has extra powder, and the Lizardmen had Coldblooded healing. Would you please consider bringing that back?

SakuraHeinz

you can have a slann of life now and there is always the revivification crystal thing.

Nielspeterdejong

Yeah, but even they could not save the Dreads...

GallowmereWarlock

Against certain faction Dreads will be a big no no anyway. I think VC will have a lot of problems against them.

Helhound#7332

Even against factions that can answer a Dread Saurian, the only thing it needs to do to make up cost is buy time for the rest of the forces. If literally everything is shooting at it, the rest of your army isn't getting shot. Now that doesn't mean it will make up its cost every time. The damn thing costs an arm and a leg. But both players need to play around the Dread Saurian. You can use that to your advantage, it doesn't also need to infinitely heal.

Nielspeterdejong

Dark Elves have Murderous Prowess, High Elves have Martial Prowess, Dwarves have +25% magic resistance and Skaven/Undead have summons. Lizardmen used to have Healing to help them sustain themselves. Namely Cold Blooded Healing.

Now they have a negative rampage mechanic and a effect to undo it, which is extremely situational, and usually happens when no Lord/heroes are nearby. They no longer have a boon, they have a negative effect and a weak way to counter it.

The Lizardmen in the mid player level tier are struggling, as we already saw in the early access, and they need their racial boon back. Which is why I wanted to suggest the following new racial traits for them, which better represents their tabletop version.

——

1: Scaly Skin: Grant all Lizardmen units an additional 15% bonus missile resistance on top of their current ones, similar to how the Dwarfs have at least 25% magic resistance. This way their huge monsters won’t melt, and it fits the Mayan theme of rushing warriors. Plus it represents their tough scaly skins.

2: Cold Blooded: Change this based on what type of Lord or Hero uses it:

-Saurus: Make it so that their Cold blooded also gives the affected target a bonus to their Melee Defense, and makes them unbreakable for the duration instead of the minor leadership boon. This will allow more uses for your Cold Blooded ability, and will also make it more thematic.

-Skinks: Grant all Skink Heroes And Lords a constant area of effect around them that removes the Rampage condition and grants allies a minor Leadership boon, turning it into a passive effect instead of a active one. Similar to how it was on the tabletop.

-Slann/Kroxigors: Give them Coldblooded healing back, which now removes Rampage and gives them a Leadership boon, but also heals them in exchange for reducing their Melee Attack and Accuracy.

——

This would give them their racial boon back, which simultaneously would lessen their short comings.

sandercohen#2214

Undead's core mechanic is that they do not route and are ITP, not summons. Also, lizardmen are competitive right now and they're getting new stuff today. It's a bit too early to call for massive buffs. Also, they access to lore of life soon.

1. Scaly skin sounds very OP, it's not even remotely comparable to the 25% magic resistance of the dwarfs when you consider that dwarfs do not have access to any magic whatsoever, and you can easily work-around magic resistance by not using any damaging magic, instead opting for buffs/debuffs and so on. When introducing major changes, consider what it will do against those factions that have ranged units as one of the core elements. Scaly skin will make skirmish cav useless against lizardmen, among many other things. Its impact would be huge.
2. Cold blooded Saurus and Slann sounds laughably OP. I would agree with the Skinks, but for all lords. Perhaps those with rampage shouldn't rampage only when they're near their lord.

Valkaar#2507

Rampage is now a buff pretty much tbh.

It triggers at a threshold so it cannot be abused as much to trigger the Lizardmen into an unfavorable engagement with a small amount of damage. Now it usually triggers after a more grinding fight. AND it boosts your combat stats while it's active (which is honestly how it should have been implemented from the beginning)....which helps you in a late-game grindy fight....which is when it triggers.

Obviously Cold-Blooded buffing healing felt stronger than a leadership buff....but a buff is still a buff. AND now the Lizardmen have access to the Lore of Life so healing should be back in full swing.

Overall, while the Lizardmen combat mechanics are less dynamic than say... the Tomb Kings or the Dark Elves.... I'd say it's superior/on par with the High Elves Martial Prowess or Dwarfs Magic Resistance at this point.

I would have been sympathetic to critiques of the ORIGINAL form of Primal Instincts...in fact I made a few critique threads myself....but ultimately, they fixed it now and I'm more or less okay with its current forms.

Nielspeterdejong

What would you give them then? Right now they truly struggle against ranged factions.

Giving them a bonus vs ranged attacks (10-15%), and granting Cold Blooded a bonus to their melee defence would go a long way!

Nielspeterdejong

sandercohen said:

Undead's core mechanic is that they do not route and are ITP, not summons. Also, lizardmen are competitive right now and they're getting new stuff today. It's a bit too early to call for massive buffs. Also, they access to lore of life soon.

1. Scaly skin sounds very OP, it's not even remotely comparable to the 25% magic resistance of the dwarfs when you consider that dwarfs do not have access to any magic whatsoever, and you can easily work-around magic resistance by not using any damaging magic, instead opting for buffs/debuffs and so on. When introducing major changes, consider what it will do against those factions that have ranged units as one of the core elements. Scaly skin will make skirmish cav useless against lizardmen, among many other things. Its impact would be huge.
2. Cold blooded Saurus and Slann sounds laughably OP. I would agree with the Skinks, but for all lords. Perhaps those with rampage shouldn't rampage only when they're near their lord.

And what about the variation for the Saurus? Perhaps they could gain that instead?

TWforumUN1989

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Nielspeterdejong

At the very least the cold blooded should be allowed to give a boon (like it did in the old tabletop).

Perhaps Cold Blooded could also provide a boon to Melee Defence?

And how do you guys feel about giving the Lizardmen +10% missile resistance across the board?

Valkaar#2507

Nielspeterdejong said:

What would you give them then? Right now they truly struggle against ranged factions.

Giving them a bonus vs ranged attacks (10-15%), and granting Cold Blooded a bonus to their melee defence would go a long way!

Like with Rampage... I think you’re thinking back to a pre-Prophet and Warlock era. The Lizardmen USED to be low tier that couldn’t deal with heavy ranged consistently.

Now though...

The Lizardmen the best against ranged factions of ANY other melee/rush faction in the game....with lots tools to deal with it in comparison. Only the most powerful ranged builds from the more versatile factions truly challenge the Lizardmen. Medium tier or half committed ranged builds get bulldozed by Lizardmen more often than not.

Don’t get me wrong.... I think AP missiles and kiting units were given too much emphasis in power.... but that’s pretty much been true from Atilla onwards. Rome 2 was the last Total War I can recall that was melee centric. Melee is more my preference play style wise but I know other people prefer ranged so there is no pleasing everyone.

That being said... the fix to that as a whole IF it was going to be fixed would be a complete redesign of how armor, ammunition, accuracy, and armor piercing all function. Not giving the Lizardmen some OP buff.

But yeah, as far as melee vs ranged goes.... the Lizardmen have the best options of any race.

Nielspeterdejong

I love all the new content, and I fully intend to play it when it comes. That said, in competetive play the Lizardmen are struggling a bit, and I think I know why...

Dark Elves have Murderous Prowess, High Elves have Martial Prowess, Dwarves have +25% magic resistance and Skaven/Undead have summons. Lizardmen used to have Healing to help them sustain themselves. Namely Cold Blooded Healing.

Now they have a negative rampage mechanic and a effect to undo it. They no longer have a boon, which shows in multi player battles. As such I wanted to propose the following changes:

——

1: Grant all Lizardmen units an additional 10% bonus missile resistance on top of their current ones, similar to how the Dwarfs have at least 25% magic resistance. This way their huge monsters won’t melt, and it fits the Mayan theme of rushing warriors. Plus it represents their tabletop scaly skins trait

2: Make it so that their Cold blooded ability also gives the affected target a bonus to their Melee Defense and more Missile Resistance. This will allow more uses for your Cold Blooded ability, and will also make it more thematic.

——

This would give them their racial boon back, which simultaneously would lessen their short comings.

Lotus_Moon#2452

Nielspeterdejong said:

What would you give them then? Right now they truly struggle against ranged factions.

Giving them a bonus vs ranged attacks (10-15%), and granting Cold Blooded a bonus to their melee defence would go a long way!

What......
Lol

Lotus_Moon#2452

Can you stop freaking spamming.

You made 10+ threads about making lzm better in last 2 days.

They are already a top 3 faction in MP and will be still next patch, Its definitely a l2p issue here.

Draculasaurus

Rampage is both negative and positive. It buffs the unit rampaging now, so if that unit is already fighting where you want it to be fighting it makes sense to just let it rampage ans save your Cold Blooded for a unit that is out of alignment. Likewise some lord choices for the Lizardmen now have AoE abilities that cancel rampage while other lord choices have abilities that cause rampage.

It's a mechanic that has certain tradeoffs and I think its in a good place right now. The main thing that hurts Lizardmen competitively is that range-heavy factions dominate the meta and the Lizardmen focus on melee with only mid-range supporting fire.

Goatforce#6625

I don't think LM are in a bad position at all competatively, they have some really tanky and cost efficient infantry, Dinos are probably some of the best monstrous units in the game. They aren't great at range but do have options for it, with amazing skirmishers like Chamelion Skinks.

They also have 2 separate rampages, the one on their ferals is a normal one, which makes sense as otherwise they would be far too cost efficient, their primal instinct one is more like a buff now, as it activates when they are very low and as I recall gives them MA, so kinda functions like a last push.

Also, every youtuber who is into the MP scene that I have seen seems to think that LM are very strong atm, and have been since P&W, maybe not "S-Tier" but definitely very good. The only matchup I can think of where they have a disadvantage is probably WEs.