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Preliminary analysis of matchup implications for the dwarfs in the new patch

eumaieseumaies Senior MemberPosts: 3,932Registered Users
edited September 11 in Balancing Discussions
Because I'll be noodling over it anyway for my guide, here's a rundown of the implications I expect form the new patch. Overall, kudos to CA for finding clever ways to help some of the races with big disadvantages vs dwarfs while also helping the dwarfs in some of their harder matchups.

Beastmen – This was a matchup where master wrath and ruin damage was pretty helpful - for wearing down low leadership bestigors and AP cav, and for offering a path to taking out harpies and controlling the air battle. So that’s a real loss. Runesmiths (along with cheaper melee lords/heroes) may be more useful now at melee-trapping beastmen chariots, which is something. That said, the new slows aren’t much good in open field tactics against a faction that can envelop with tons of cheap units with ease. Basic miners and dwarf warriors GW might be more useful now vs bestigors but miners BC no longer a unit I’d spam given how easy it is to disrupt their throws. Minotaurs, while still a risky pick for Beastmen, offer some real upside vs infantry now. And Bugmans got less viable with the increased cost, further limiting dwarf wide build options. Overall, a slight downgrade of the matchup in favor of the Beasts, but it was already pretty limited as a matchup anyway, and it’s still winnable if you get lucky in your counterpick.

Brettonia – A slight improvement for Brettonia’s chances, though still clearly favors the dwarfs. The new runes of wrath and runes favor brettonia, since slowing one of multiple charging cavalry down more is not nearly as helpful as a slow that also deals big damage, and it’s always hard for dwarf melee lords to sink their teeth into anything high value vs a mobile faction. Grombrindal at least is viable, as is Gotrek, but the lose of the runelord as a cheap damaging fix will cut into dwarf wide builds. In the dwarf favor, however, quarrelers just got much better vs foot squires (and vs cav), and there may be some improvements in organ guns as well.

Dark Elves – Patch takes an even matchup and tilts to one that will slightly favor the dark elves. In the dawi favor, sorceress and cold one chariots both got pricier, chipping away at wide and fast builds. In the dark elf favor, wrath and rune was classically perfect against a low-HP faction with fast expensive infantry like sisters of slaughter who also had physical resist. Will be hard to find an ideal alternative melee lord, leaving the unenviable choice between having fewer slows or paying for slows that don’t deal damage against one of the strongest rush factions vs dwarfs. Cheaper dwarf foot lords will also face cheaper dark elf foot lords (and malekith on cold one) and heroes who are reasonable options vs the dawi. Reaper bolt throwers that work better vs infantry will open another viable approach for the dark elves, while pricier rangers – though more versatile vs armour – will be just a bit harder to spam. Same with miners BC. Dwarf warriors GW will be an even stronger hedge vs corsairs, however. Finally, improved gyrocoptors, bombers, and perhaps the flame cannon are all interesting surprise picks but all come with massive risk due to the presence of harpies and ranged AP threats to air or artillery dominance.

Empire – Most of the new units don’t have clear synergies vs dwarfs, but cheaper spammable archers will definitely be a factor in the matchup. Cheaper demis and possibly improved outrideres will occasionally help as well – and the hellblaster may now be a worthwhile risky pick. Mostly, however, the empire benefits from the change in wrath and rune, which devastated empire cav and punished rush builds too much. Empire has enough disruption tools and not a big reliance on single entities, so the new wrath and ruin is a real downgrade for dwarfs in this matchup, while melee dwarf lords have little impact on the game vs empire builds. Rangers’ cost increases will be offset by the AP helping vs greatswords, but bugmans, a killer unit in the matchup, will be harder to spam, helping the empire. The wagons will be very risky picks against dawi cannon, but just having one more thing for dwarfs to prepare against can only help the empire. A matchup that was almost broken in dawi favor may now be just disadvantaged for the empire.

Greenskins – Probably a slight net gain for dwarfs in a matchup that was tilting towards the greenskins in previous patches. Increased cost to doom divers is welcome. Dwarf melee lords got more cost competitive and super beefy but grimgor is keeping pace. Master Wrath and rune was not essential in this matchup since greenskins have high HP, but the loss of the free damage will make greenskin squig cav a bit harder to focus down. Quarrelers/rangers of all types with AP will be more versatile vs heavy black orc builds so that’s a plus. And finally, if you do use runes, sniping orc lords and mages of all types may be easier than it was.
Edit: it’s possible the new gyro brimstones will be just too hard for azhag and buddies to counter. I still have faith greenskins can do it but it may be a problem that they need to prepare for this even more than they used to. Still, at the end of the day they can still rush (even a box) and just ignore the air.

High elves – Overall an that shaved away some of the extremes for high elves but gave them a leg up they needed in their more generic builds. Should make the matchup still even but more fun. Lower mass on dragon princes and the option of extreme slows will hopefully mitigate the only HE build that was truly broken, and if dwarf characters can deal a little damage when cycle charged by noble chariots their end-game dominance may be less problematic. No more 6 chariots in QB will also help with the extreme counter-picking options. More extreme runesmith slows can also make it riskier to get value out of nobles, particularly if you are using shorter range punishing tools like trollhammers or following up with grombrindal. On the flip side, expensive elvish infantry is materially helped by the lack of damage on new wrath and ruin runes, and there is no clear winner melee dwarf lord to pick up the slack. More dangerous bolt throwers will make the artillery game more interesting.

Norsca – a dwarf favored matchup that probably got slightly easier for Norsca. Runes that don’t cause damage will help norsca a bit. Their big guys weren’t hard to shoot up to begin with so the super-slows are not needed. Weaker mammoths and fimir hurt norsca, while cheaper maurader hunters with throwing axes will help, as will vanguarded warhounds. Look out for that insane AOE buff from the new mammoth with warshrines, which could allow their AP infantry to overperform for a change.
Edit: similar to greenskins gyro spam may become an issue. Here too, though, a rush faction can win just by overwhelming before gyros have time to pay off. Will be key to see of frost wyrms are viable for actually contesting the air as an alternative.

Lizardmen – Another fairly even matchup, though this one improved for the dawi a bit. Reduced armour on the biggest dinosaurs will help keep the lizards from dominating the late game. Pricier RCS will unfortunately lead to people taking less of them, a net loss for the dawi since they were a poor units to take vs the dwarfs to begin with ;). But seriously, RCS is a nerf that in theory hurts lizards a bit. Temple guards got a little weaker but feral cold ones a little stronger. I’ll be curious to see if the kroxigor charge distance makes it easier to avoid getting bowl-rushed by them. Meanwhile on the dawi side gyros with brimstones will be more dominant than ever, and extreme slows, while weaker vs RCS (who sucked anyway), will be handy vs the lizard air force and to some extent against big dinos. Finally, quarrelers will be more versatile vs all types of lizards (large or small).

Skaven – A rat-favored matchup that is now likely very even. The slight reduction in range on natty buboes and jezzails in general will make them easier to screen, spot, and kill. That aside, dwarfs have always been strong vs skaven and it will remain a classic matchup of sneakiness and surprise picks on both sides. Cavalry is for the birds.

Tomb Kings – a matchup that at the elite level I felt strongly favored tomb kings, but it keeps tweaking its way towards hope for the dwarfs. Super slows are probably handy against the warsphinxes and chariot lords, and wrath and rune damage was not all that useful for hordes of undead infantry to begin with. Meanwhile, carrion got more expensive again, lending a little more hope against a faction that can cheaply bog down a dawi ranged force like nobody else. All the dawi melee lords getting more playable and harder to knock over will help a little bit as well. I’m not holding my breath they’ll actually have viability vs chariot heroes or warsphinxes, however.

Vampire Coast – More hopeless than ever for the coast. Rune of wrath and rune was not a factor here to begin with. Depth guard got a little more handy, but all the zombies got easier to grind away, and dwarf builds all got a little cheaper and even more deadly at range. Bloated corpses may see some better use, I suppose.
Edit: forgot to mention nerf to bugmans helps coast a little. Bugmans we’re immune to scurvy dog play which was nice, by combined arms can still carry the day.

Vampire Counts – Another matchup not determined by runes. Vampires got a few more tools (we’ll see if Crypt horrors were buffed enough to matter), and they still have black coaches. But this was a very hard matchup for them and stronger quarrelers and dwarf melee lords and AP chaff units won’t help.
Edit: good points on slows potentially sniping VC sems early. Another potential way to lose. Also I forgot to mention nerfed bugmans helps VC a little.

Chaos – Getting a little silly. I still don’t see how chaos can reliably deal with four brimstone guns, much less working gyro- bombers. I suppose spamming manticores is always an option, but the matchup just feels like a big game of rock-scissors-paper. The loss of wrath and rune damage will hurt dwarfs a bit while extreme slows may help a bit in an air-war. On the flip side, chaos has good disruptor units so I feel they can still win big by spamming their cheap chariots, or skip chariots completely as a surprise. I worry this matchup is going nowhere on the fun spectrum.
Edit: as tzu devil noted, the trollhammers and rangers gw are already good in this matchup and the new slows may allow them to be better counters vs chariots so you can bring fewer. That would allow for more traditional line builds to be more viable than before.
Wood elves – was almost hopeless for the woodies, but I think it may be moving to just ‘hard’. In their toolset they now have loose formation AP infantry, waywatcher spam as always, wild riders that will no longer get chipped away by wrath and ruin runes, and the very cheap AP archers they were upgraded to have in the previous patch. Combined with blasting charges getting pricier and rangers getting AP but losing firing speed, I think the elves can now win this sometimes with the right counterpick. It’s a matchup where if dwarf units do what they typically can do it’s over, but wood elves can at least surprise and then take advantage. And wild riders not being punished so easily by magic damage will help disruption tactics quite a bit, while archers spam of various types remains as viable as ever as an alternative.
Post edited by eumaies on
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Comments

  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,061Registered Users
    Greenskins - I think this matchup will tilt in the Dawi favour now, although I think it was even in the current patch. As you say the loss of Wrath and Ruin damage will help the Greenskins a small amount, but the beefier flame cannon & more accurate organ gun, new BvL on the brimstone guns, buffs to all Dwarf lords & characters, better damage on the Gyro bombs, and cost increase to doomdiver (which was warranted) will all hit the Greenskins pretty hard. I suppose on the positive side, the increase in cost of Miners BC will help goblin play somewhat but Gyros are already a tough problem for the Greenskins to deal with and now they are stronger (although I support the buffs). Reality is though that Greenskins roster design is really showing its age at this point, a new lord pack can't come soon enough. The lack of any real hero options is really starting to hurt, the vulnerability to flyers and single entities is starting to sting really hard as well. Overall very excited for this matchup though, will be great to see a variety of different Dwarf lords going head to head with Grimgor/Azhag/etc.

    Skaven - This will be a sick matchup now, both sides have good options and will be a lot of fun.

    Vampire Coast - Good point about the Bloated corpses, will be interesting to see how they perform against the dwarfs now they are cheaper. Dwarfs are the one faction that can't really send single entities to pop them with ease, so could lead to some very funny games and potential plays by the vampire coast. Especially with the Fleet Captain item that gives a speed boost + stalk + unspottable. But as you say more ap on crossbows will mean that Crabs will suffer bigtime alongside all the other difficulties Coast has in this matchup.

    Wood Elves - Very keen to see how this plays out now with the WWR change. At 900 they are a fair bit more spammable and the nerfs to Waywatchers don't really have any impact on the Dwarf matchup. The increase to the cost of miners BC will also hurt the dwarfs here as well, although it will likely still be a dwarf favoured matchup.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,932Registered Users
    Good points. On the greenskin matchup, I find the azhag spirit leech along with overall delays of engagement and the available ranged support can allow dwarf gyros not to simply dominate and actually get work down (though spirit leech was a bit nerfed...) - and then if they do go brimstone guns those don’t always have good targets vs greenskin builds. So the Air Force is dangerous and maybe bombers will be too punishing but it’s a lot of money against a faction that can also just win before it even pays off.
  • tzurugbytzurugby Posts: 125Registered Users
    Love the notes!!! As always your insight is unmatched, and the amount you help players new and experienced alike on the Dawi in multiplayer can never be appreciated enough!!! Great job!!
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,932Registered Users
    I should add though that the nerfs to bugmans will help a bit both VC and VP in their matchups with dwarfs.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,061Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    Good points. On the greenskin matchup, I find the azhag spirit leech along with overall delays of engagement and the available ranged support can allow dwarf gyros not to simply dominate and actually get work down (though spirit leech was a bit nerfed...) - and then if they do go brimstone guns those don’t always have good targets vs greenskin builds. So the Air Force is dangerous and maybe bombers will be too punishing but it’s a lot of money against a faction that can also just win before it even pays off.

    True, steam guns are generally a better call here but I think with the BvL on the brimstone now you can almost certainly get value out of shooting down Squig hoppers/trolls/Mogrubbs and then try either whittle down lords/heroes or kill models on Black Orcs. Gyrocopter bombs are also amazing vs Skulkers if you can spare the micro.
  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Posts: 2,594Registered Users
    One of the most useful posts I’ve read on these forums for some time. As always, your knowledge of Dawi is a great reference point, and your cogent analysis of match ups is much appreciated. Nicely done. :+1:
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,221Registered Users
    eumaies said:


    Vampire Counts – Another matchup not determined by runes.

    Runes actually quite important as a tool to deal with SEMs. With stronger slow(that work on charge speed too now!!!) it is much harder to dodge with SEMs. Plus damage from Rune was not imporant in this matchup. I think it would be even more dawi dominated now. (And i think Grombrindal buffs would make him quite strong option in this matchup, his flash grenade have no charges)
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,404Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    eumaies said:


    Vampire Counts – Another matchup not determined by runes.

    Runes actually quite important as a tool to deal with SEMs. With stronger slow(that work on charge speed too now!!!) it is much harder to dodge with SEMs. Plus damage from Rune was not imporant in this matchup. I think it would be even more dawi dominated now. (And i think Grombrindal buffs would make him quite strong option in this matchup, his flash grenade have no charges)
    Yeah this is my view too in a few mu where sems are important. It's all nice and dandy that the damage is gone from the runes but I think the positive synergy between the stronger slow and infantry is omitted. Slayers, giant slayers and hammers now are counters to sems while they before were not. Especially the removed charge speed will spell doom for any chariot, monster or cav trying to hit the back line in melee afaic. With that problem dealt with I think there is more than enough funds left to address the rest.

    I mean I totally see what you're saying eumaies, I just think the builds that will emerge will be more different and exploit more the fact that infantry now can totally shut down backline attacks. For example 2-3 runes, dragonbacks and probably 1 unit of giant slayers should make it extremely costly to go near with any mobile melee. I think that's a cheaper investment than you would do now to achieve the same, something like still runes often, dragonbscks, trollhsmmers, thunderers and bts. I don't think you will lack funds to deal with gw and archers now that hammerers, trollhammers, thunderers and rangers, and not least cannons will not just be run down by chariots.

    It's not simple and frankly I hope I am wrong. If this is enough to force the opponent to getting l grind through the front door so to say I think game play will be more boring and if terrain permits I think dawi can make some extremely strong ranged geometries now. Also gyro buffs are significant as well as buffs to lords, I have a hard time seeing the sum as a nerf.

    I definitely think vc, brettonia and vp will struggle more, probably norsca too. I am uncertain about many others but I think many will have to rather focus on outgrinding/outshooting dawi and most factions are worse than dawi at this. At least initially there will probably be more build variation though, so it will be fun for a while at least.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,279Registered Users
    I do think you're totally downplaying this rune change and seem to view it as a nerf, while i view it as a buff, likewise the other buffs dwarfs got seem to help a bit in match-ups you say went from even to against dwarfs, for example gyros brimstones or bomber seems very nice vs Dark Elves, likewise flame cannon vs HE.

    Regardless a quite nice read and while i disagree with some points i do agree with the majority of them.

    Wood Elves - Very keen to see how this plays out now with the WWR change. At 900 they are a fair bit more spammable and the nerfs to Waywatchers don't really have any impact on the Dwarf matchup. The increase to the cost of miners BC will also hurt the dwarfs here as well, although it will likely still be a dwarf favoured matchup.


    @OrkLads why do you say WW nerfs dont impact dwarfs? The HP nerf means more models will die in ranged trades and vs units such as organ gun, likewise +50g, speed nerf while really minor means slightly longer re-positioning.

    I do agree that WWR will be a better pick vs dwarfs and BC nerfs nelp WE's but i do feel both sides will be happy to see less WW spam.

    The reason i do think this match-up becomes from silly to more even now though is that WE's are not predictable now vs Dwarfs.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,221Registered Users


    I definitely think vc, brettonia and vp will struggle more, probably norsca too.

    Actually i think Norsca would struggle the most. They rely heavy on Lord/Hero chariots in this matchup and you can take only 3 of this. Plus Norsca do not have good GW infantry(VC at least have GG GW plus zombos option and double Wight king help too). Especially with much stronger gyros now.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,221Registered Users
    edited September 9

    why do you say WW nerfs dont impact dwarfs? The HP nerf means more models will die in ranged trades and vs units such as organ gun

    I think Organ guns did killed WW models even before, minor hp nerf would not change anything. And all dawi range infantry are outranged by WW. MD nerf on WW vs dawi are almost irelevent due to slow dawi speed. -2 speed are not issue too.
    Do not forget that Runes do not damage now. So you cannot drain cav/WW with them.

    Do not know how good Flame cannon would be now i think it is has some potential vs WE now.
  • hanenhanen Posts: 316Registered Users
    Depending on how much better Brimstones becomes they might break the BM, Brets, Dark Elf matchups and more.

    If they, together with improved slow from runes, start to rout units like chariots and cav before combat I foresee even more Dawi boxes.

    The increased cost of Miners (bc), Rangers and Bugman's decrease the viability of going wide. Also promoting Dawi boxes.

    I would have likes to see changes promoting variety of builds. I'm not sure how as the faction have had the same problems on TT as well. At least on TT you usually had to move around to get to your objectives. In Total War there is nothing discouraging Dawi boxes.

    Dawi is pretty fun to play as but, in my view, the most boring faction to play against.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,279Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    why do you say WW nerfs dont impact dwarfs? The HP nerf means more models will die in ranged trades and vs units such as organ gun

    I think Organ guns did killed WW models even before, minor hp nerf would not change anything. And all dawi range infantry are outranged by WW. MD nerf on WW vs dawi are almost irelevent due to slow dawi speed. -2 speed are not issue too.
    Do not forget that Runes do not damage now. So you cannot drain cav/WW with them.

    Do not know how good Flame cannon would be now i think it is has some potential vs WE now.
    It actually didn't but will now

    Organ gun does 68 AP dmg and 22 Normal Dmg currently total = 90 and WW have 90 HP currently BUT with 15 armour.

    After the change they will have 84 HP.

    Correct me if i'm wrong but after this change Organ gun will much more likely drop models per shot as opposed to before.

    While its true WW outrange dwarf units that won't change there's slightly less room for misplay.

    MD nerfs i agree are irrelevant here, -2 speed is relevant for re-positioning, not by much but it still means they re position 5% slower as to now.

    Wild riders will still not be a good pick and now with rune being 200m it means that you can shoot WW if they oversteped into range, or even rune than shot your ranged at them.

    I dont disagree this match-up has improved but i do feel WW play is weaker here than it was pre patch, and +50g per unit.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,221Registered Users


    Wild riders will still not be a good pick and now with rune being 200m it means that you can shoot WW if they oversteped into range, or even rune than shot your ranged at them.

    Still there is plus side that you WW would not be drained now. In my dawi-WE games i did managed to get rid of 1-2 WW mostly due to runes damage if there is no heavy cav pressure, now it is not as strong option.


    It actually didn't but will now
    Organ gun does 68 AP dmg and 22 Normal Dmg currently total = 90 and WW have 90 HP currently BUT with 15 armour.
    After the change they will have 84 HP.

    In such case it can be an issue. Still need to test it live.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,404Registered Users
    @tank3487 @Lotus_Moon I have little experience with WE vs DWF, but how about the 200 meters range on the slow now, don't you think that could pull the pants off the WW vs either stalked rangers or organ guns (if spotting can be upheld).
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,932Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    eumaies said:


    Vampire Counts – Another matchup not determined by runes.

    Runes actually quite important as a tool to deal with SEMs. With stronger slow(that work on charge speed too now!!!) it is much harder to dodge with SEMs. Plus damage from Rune was not imporant in this matchup. I think it would be even more dawi dominated now. (And i think Grombrindal buffs would make him quite strong option in this matchup, his flash grenade have no charges)
    I guess what I find vs VC is runes that have limited charges are less powerful because VC can find a way to endure/disrupt/avoid and heal up later, and what you need to focus your massed range the VC can usually disrupt earlier in a battle. That said with stronger slows it’s possible sniping will be much more practical. Particularly with overwhelming numbers of crossbows. So VC may need to go wider than ever.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,932Registered Users

    tank3487 said:

    eumaies said:


    Vampire Counts – Another matchup not determined by runes.

    Runes actually quite important as a tool to deal with SEMs. With stronger slow(that work on charge speed too now!!!) it is much harder to dodge with SEMs. Plus damage from Rune was not imporant in this matchup. I think it would be even more dawi dominated now. (And i think Grombrindal buffs would make him quite strong option in this matchup, his flash grenade have no charges)
    Yeah this is my view too in a few mu where sems are important. It's all nice and dandy that the damage is gone from the runes but I think the positive synergy between the stronger slow and infantry is omitted. Slayers, giant slayers and hammers now are counters to sems while they before were not. Especially the removed charge speed will spell doom for any chariot, monster or cav trying to hit the back line in melee afaic. With that problem dealt with I think there is more than enough funds left to address the rest.

    I mean I totally see what you're saying eumaies, I just think the builds that will emerge will be more different and exploit more the fact that infantry now can totally shut down backline attacks. For example 2-3 runes, dragonbacks and probably 1 unit of giant slayers should make it extremely costly to go near with any mobile melee. I think that's a cheaper investment than you would do now to achieve the same, something like still runes often, dragonbscks, trollhsmmers, thunderers and bts. I don't think you will lack funds to deal with gw and archers now that hammerers, trollhammers, thunderers and rangers, and not least cannons will not just be run down by chariots.

    It's not simple and frankly I hope I am wrong. If this is enough to force the opponent to getting l grind through the front door so to say I think game play will be more boring and if terrain permits I think dawi can make some extremely strong ranged geometries now. Also gyro buffs are significant as well as buffs to lords, I have a hard time seeing the sum as a nerf.

    I definitely think vc, brettonia and vp will struggle more, probably norsca too. I am uncertain about many others but I think many will have to rather focus on outgrinding/outshooting dawi and most factions are worse than dawi at this. At least initially there will probably be more build variation though, so it will be fun for a while at least.
    Yeah it’s good questions. I find Melee crushing single entities, even with extreme slows, to be a lot harder than it appears. Yes if you enter a box with a big sem it can get bogged down and die. But in an open field fight where you picked a peripheral spot to fight a ranged goon squad might punish you but some hammerers catching you for a bit (while you still are moving to some extent) isn’t really a decisive counter.

    So I think they let question for Melee defenders is what are they trying to protect. If a tight formation dwarfs are going for a Melee grind, which can be quite strong but allows opponent ranged and artillery plays, as well as frankly just superior infantry plays in most matchups (VC being a notably screwed exception). If a wide formation with lots of ranged units, Melee defenders won’t play as big a role even with the enhanced slows.

    In my experience giant slayers are pretty self balancing - you spend 1200 points on a glass cannon any faction with expendable archers or fast infantry killers has a great target, and it was always a good idea to bring a few of these vs dwarfs. So protecting and making use of these guys can certainly be done but it’s a fun challenge for both sides.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,932Registered Users

    I do think you're totally downplaying this rune change and seem to view it as a nerf, while i view it as a buff, likewise the other buffs dwarfs got seem to help a bit in match-ups you say went from even to against dwarfs, for example gyros brimstones or bomber seems very nice vs Dark Elves, likewise flame cannon vs HE.

    Regardless a quite nice read and while i disagree with some points i do agree with the majority of them.

    Wood Elves - Very keen to see how this plays out now with the WWR change. At 900 they are a fair bit more spammable and the nerfs to Waywatchers don't really have any impact on the Dwarf matchup. The increase to the cost of miners BC will also hurt the dwarfs here as well, although it will likely still be a dwarf favoured matchup.


    @OrkLads why do you say WW nerfs dont impact dwarfs? The HP nerf means more models will die in ranged trades and vs units such as organ gun, likewise +50g, speed nerf while really minor means slightly longer re-positioning.

    I do agree that WWR will be a better pick vs dwarfs and BC nerfs nelp WE's but i do feel both sides will be happy to see less WW spam.

    The reason i do think this match-up becomes from silly to more even now though is that WE's are not predictable now vs Dwarfs.
    Certainly an Air Force could hurt a dark elf army or a flame cannon could punish a he army. But both are very counterpicky options. For the dark elves four harpies and a little ranged AP is not an unreasonable hedge vs any build and highly effective at limiting what gyros can do in time for it to matter. For high elves unless the expensive flame cannon is backed up by a whole other line of dwarf artillery, any number of bolt throwers will make quick work of an expensive flame cannon. Certainly there are picks and tricks and counterpicks for both sides in that, but at the core flame cannon is a big gamble so I don’t think it alters the balance in most games.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,932Registered Users
    hanen said:

    Depending on how much better Brimstones becomes they might break the BM, Brets, Dark Elf matchups and more.

    If they, together with improved slow from runes, start to rout units like chariots and cav before combat I foresee even more Dawi boxes.

    The increased cost of Miners (bc), Rangers and Bugman's decrease the viability of going wide. Also promoting Dawi boxes.

    I would have likes to see changes promoting variety of builds. I'm not sure how as the faction have had the same problems on TT as well. At least on TT you usually had to move around to get to your objectives. In Total War there is nothing discouraging Dawi boxes.

    Dawi is pretty fun to play as but, in my view, the most boring faction to play against.

    While I worry about the game getting too much about rick scissors paper with the improved gyros, BM, Bretts, and DEs all have air forces that can neuter gyro play pretty completely. Maybe less so Bretts, or at least it’s more of a departure from the norm for them.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,061Registered Users

    I do think you're totally downplaying this rune change and seem to view it as a nerf, while i view it as a buff, likewise the other buffs dwarfs got seem to help a bit in match-ups you say went from even to against dwarfs, for example gyros brimstones or bomber seems very nice vs Dark Elves, likewise flame cannon vs HE.

    Regardless a quite nice read and while i disagree with some points i do agree with the majority of them.

    Wood Elves - Very keen to see how this plays out now with the WWR change. At 900 they are a fair bit more spammable and the nerfs to Waywatchers don't really have any impact on the Dwarf matchup. The increase to the cost of miners BC will also hurt the dwarfs here as well, although it will likely still be a dwarf favoured matchup.


    @OrkLads why do you say WW nerfs dont impact dwarfs? The HP nerf means more models will die in ranged trades and vs units such as organ gun, likewise +50g, speed nerf while really minor means slightly longer re-positioning.

    I do agree that WWR will be a better pick vs dwarfs and BC nerfs nelp WE's but i do feel both sides will be happy to see less WW spam.

    The reason i do think this match-up becomes from silly to more even now though is that WE's are not predictable now vs Dwarfs.
    Tbh I forgot about the +50, that will have an impact. I don't think the speed nerf is relevant in comparison to the speed buffs and

    I do think you're totally downplaying this rune change and seem to view it as a nerf, while i view it as a buff, likewise the other buffs dwarfs got seem to help a bit in match-ups you say went from even to against dwarfs, for example gyros brimstones or bomber seems very nice vs Dark Elves, likewise flame cannon vs HE.

    Regardless a quite nice read and while i disagree with some points i do agree with the majority of them.

    Wood Elves - Very keen to see how this plays out now with the WWR change. At 900 they are a fair bit more spammable and the nerfs to Waywatchers don't really have any impact on the Dwarf matchup. The increase to the cost of miners BC will also hurt the dwarfs here as well, although it will likely still be a dwarf favoured matchup.


    @OrkLads why do you say WW nerfs dont impact dwarfs? The HP nerf means more models will die in ranged trades and vs units such as organ gun, likewise +50g, speed nerf while really minor means slightly longer re-positioning.

    I do agree that WWR will be a better pick vs dwarfs and BC nerfs nelp WE's but i do feel both sides will be happy to see less WW spam.

    The reason i do think this match-up becomes from silly to more even now though is that WE's are not predictable now vs Dwarfs.
    Tbh I forgot about the +50, that will of course hurt them. But the other changes don't really seem significant to me, they are still much faster than dwarf infantry, and the HP nerf seems minimal. On balance I definitely think the matchup got better for the Wood Elves.

    And I do agree that this is definitely a buff for Dwarfs, I just think all the immediate negativity about it is unwarranted. This patch 4 (not included in DLC) old world factions got significant buffs in my view Dwarfs, Beastmen, Wood Elves, Chaos and while there may be a few things that will need to be dialed back in the hot fix or maybe the next patch, I am hugely supportive of these more ambitious type changes that really try to address the issues that some of the older factions have. Compared to some of the older patches where the rate of change was somewhat glacial this seems a positive trend to me, even if something's will be brought in too strong.

    The much stronger slow on W&R to me is a great thing, it may need to be tweaked but at the end of the day the only way to tone down the Dawi backline and make them more balanced was to allow their melee units to have a chance at engaging all targets at least some of the time. Cheap bow units will now be more effective vs Dwarfs in my opinion because their counters either got more expensive, or have longer reload time which will hurt their damage output more than what they will gain in doing extra ap to already lightly armoured archers. Will have to see how it plays out, but it seems like a big step in the right direction towards opening up playing as and against the Dwarfs.

    Worth remembering that all the game 2 factions AND game 1 factions will find themselves in this position once game 3 comes out, so better to get used to suggesting and critiquing more sweeping changes now because there will be many more to come in the future.
  • hanenhanen Posts: 316Registered Users
    I think the range of the slow will be nerfed.

    You should at least have to put your characters in a riskier position if you want to get maximum value from it.

    Now it looks like a point and click ability without any drawbacks.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,404Registered Users
    edited September 9
    hanen said:

    I think the range of the slow will be nerfed.

    You should at least have to put your characters in a riskier position if you want to get maximum value from it.

    Now it looks like a point and click ability without any drawbacks.

    That's my main problem with it too, 200 meters, and also the master rune duration. Sub 20 seconds on the normal rune is fine, but 38 seconds and 200 meters is just extreme for a slow when nearly all I can think of from the top of my head are normalized around 100 meters and 14-28 seconds.

    If it had been say:

    Master rune: 100 meters range, 24 seconds
    Rune: 100 meters range, 18 seconds

    Then I would have been onboard with this.
  • ystyst Posts: 5,690Registered Users
    edited September 9



    Master rune: 100 meters range, 24 seconds
    Rune: 100 meters range, 18 seconds

    Then I would have been onboard with this.

    Lol what, wth u gonna do with 18s and 24s thats just foolish beyond craziness. 100m.

    Pretty much vomiting blood with some of these ideas. Take away the slow, give the dmg back, too much ridiculous talks from ppl that doesnt know the faction really.

    Yay lets give up a bjuna on chosen and give us a 100m slow. Simply one of those magical moments where a mega nerf was jesus’ed into a buff lol. Dwf is going to be so, so easy to deal with now. The ONE and ONLY thing holding them up since 2016s gone.

    It was by design when theres only 4 factions in game, pre chaos release, that wrath remains the only damaging “spell” dwf have, where azhag have dark, empire already starts with variety of mages and manfred with 2 full lores. Dwf gonna be so screwed after this. Only hope left is that theyre able to use gotrek and felix and they have something worthwhile
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  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Posts: 143Registered Users
    Nothing too much to add other than great thread!

    Very thoughtful write up thanks eumaies
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,404Registered Users
    yst said:



    Master rune: 100 meters range, 24 seconds
    Rune: 100 meters range, 18 seconds

    Then I would have been onboard with this.

    Lol what, wth u gonna do with 18s and 24s thats just foolish beyond craziness. 100m.

    Pretty much vomiting blood with some of these ideas. Take away the slow, give the dmg back, too much ridiculous talks from ppl that doesnt know the faction really.

    Yay lets give up a bjuna on chosen and give us a 100m slow. Simply one of those magical moments where a mega nerf was jesus’ed into a buff lol. Dwf is going to be so, so easy to deal with now. The ONE and ONLY thing holding them up since 2016s gone.

    It was by design when theres only 4 factions in game, pre chaos release, that wrath remains the only damaging “spell” dwf have, where azhag have dark, empire already starts with variety of mages and manfred with 2 full lores. Dwf gonna be so screwed after this. Only hope left is that theyre able to use gotrek and felix and they have something worthwhile


    Chosen hit by dwarf bjuna. Let's see how they cope without. In the meantime, you know nothing about me and you seem to very often be very unlucky with your balance thinking so maybe tune down a notch or two, or just put a sock in it.

    There are other good targets that will be missed for sure though, but that doesn't mean that the opponents will not miss out more when they can't use their mobile tools anymore. These are big changes, to some extent welcome but I just think the counter to mobility is too hard. A softer counter is fine and could help build variety. A too hard counter as far as I can see will reduce build variety and give boring matches.

    Nets and snares, tempest, prey etc were all reduced to 100 meters for a reason. They also received longer cast times for most part and had their durations cut. The only exception I can think of is el syf, but it's in a non-ranged faction and only 50% debuff. Otherwise they all have 100 meters range and some 14-28 seconds.

    200 meters and 38 seconds is a lot no matter how you look at it.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 3,932Registered Users
    edited September 9
    The Runelord is a light Mage. Less mobile so the range compensated for that. Do light mages shut down all mobility? Of course not. They actually make rushing builds ideal. The only thing in serious danger is all your eggs in one basket expensive sems.

    And I do mean ONE basket. Have you seen the cooldown on the master rune? Battle will be over and he’ll be dead before you get another semi net from him.
  • MTechMTech Posts: 367Registered Users
    We are talking about more or less 2400 and 2700 dmg against perfect targets which is now 0.
    With just 100m range both runelord and Smith should lose every +gold they got just because of wrath and ruin which would mean another - 100g for both.

    200m is fine without the dmg it did ranged units need to pick up the lost value on the chars.

    Isn't it great to see the same people always getting scared by any changes to the dwarfs.



  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,404Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    The Runelord is a light Mage. Less mobile so the range compensated for that. Do light mages shut down all mobility? Of course not. They actually make rushing builds ideal. The only thing in serious danger is all your eggs in one basket expensive sems.

    And I do mean ONE basket. Have you seen the cooldown on the master rune? Battle will be over and he’ll be dead before you get another semi net from him.

    It's 100 meters regardless if a mage or aranessa or warpengineer or marcus is on foot or not. It is a kind of special treatment that makes the counter much harder. Is 200 meters and 38 seconds good design or is it a step backwards to what we had at launch?

    If other things need adjustment that's fine. If WE need buffs it doesn't make buffing prey to 200 meters a good idea...
  • ystyst Posts: 5,690Registered Users
    Amazing, now a slow > pure net.

    Hey Duck, if ure reading this mind swapping glades lord net with rune lord wrath. Dont mind taking the nerf with inferior net. We will leave the op stuff for elves.

    Since the slow is so op then i suggest REMOVE the slow altogether and return the dmg. Thatll be great thanks.

    Now watch them defend against the dmg swap lol. Coz obvious.
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  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,189Registered Users

    My thoughts on new dwarf-elf matchups:
    Vs Asrai:
    @Disposable Hero Specifically on the new net rune, It will make bringing glady dragon much more difficult, especially combine with the bugmans buff to missile damage (+2AP missile,+2missile damage), even if the are slightly more expensive.

    Waywatcher nerfs and organ gun buff will definitely neuter the ability to play the long game with waywatchers somewhat.

    On the other side, WWR buffs plus the removal of damage from runes is nice and might make infantry builds more viable.

    Wardancer changes wont help WE at all here, I also don't think miners cost increase is going to affect anything, given that all the dwarfs lords got heavy price drops.

    Waystalker price drop is nice and could be a good way to counteract the WW nerfs.

    Overall I don't think the balance of this MU will change, basically WW builds have become worse and infantry builds have become very slightly better. From the dwarfs side, infantry killing builds have become slightly worse, but monster and range killing builds have gotten better.

    Vs Druchii:

    basically DE infantry builds are better now, but you still have to be careful the new dwarfs nets. Malekith on chariot or dragon will be near suicide now though, whereas before it was one of the best lord choices. Cold one chariots nerf will also hurt a lot, along with dwarf nets. Overall id say it went from even to slightly harder for dark elves.


    Vs Asur:

    Again, changes to rune of net makes swordmasters a safer pick, but makes noble chariots/dragons/chariots a much worse pick. Overall I think it will go from slight HE favoured to even.
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