The Lizardmen usually lose in the streams

Nielspeterdejong

I know the DLC isn’t out yet, but so far they seem to be fairing poorly.

The Dread Saurian does not have enough missile resistance. And the other options are way too expensive.

They also lack units that excel at their role (aside from infantry) like the Empire does. They do have monsters with weapons, but they are often too slow.

Would you consider the following suggestions?

1) Lower the cost of the standard Dread Saurian to 3000, and the ROR to 3600. To compensate, you could make it so that a multi player Lizardmen army may only choose 1 Dread Saurian, regardless of type.

2) Grant to Dread Saurian more missile resistance, to compensate for the huge hit box. Perhaps 25%?

3) The Bastiladon are not tanks enough to compensate for their slow speed. Could you grant them additional physical resistance? Most factions now have AP ranged options that make them obsolete.

4) Lower the cost of the Ark of Sotek. Make him a cheap option that is just a little bit more expensive then the Feral Bastiladon.

5) Please allow the Terradon Riders with Bolas to be more effective against lightly armored mobs. Right now they are far too easily countered, and they should be rewarded for proper micro. Which would also make them viable again in competitive play.

6) Could you give more mass to the Terradon Riders and perhaps a weaker contact damage effect? (Like the mammoth has). Right now they are too expensive for what they offer. And unless they are against the Dwarfs, they are far too easily countered.

7) Could you grant the Feral Cold ones either: 1) a bonus vs large, and more hp. Or 2) more models and more hp. Right now they can’t properly scare off Archers, nor deal with hounds. Either option would make them more viable.

Aside from that, thank you for all your efforts so far!

nonentity

So you want Bret vs LZM to be more impossible than it already is? Seriously, don't judge too much on the early footage since people are still playing around with the new units. Also, if you are going against a faction that can snipe SEM (Emp, Dawi, WE, TK, DE, etc) maybe don't bring them and invest in other assets?

Nielspeterdejong

So in what case ARE the Dreads useful then? Because almost every faction has standard viable tools that shut them down way too hard.

TheShiroOfDalton

I smell a "Lizardmen, where's the love" thread coming up!

Asamu#6386

nonentity said:

So you want Bret vs LZM to be more impossible than it already is? Seriously, don't judge too much on the early footage since people are still playing around with the new units. Also, if you are going against a faction that can snipe SEM (Emp, Dawi, WE, TK, DE, etc) maybe don't bring them and invest in other assets?

Honestly, I think this will be the case no matter what (unless they break other match ups) given that LM are a monster-heavy faction with elite halberd infantry, and none of the things he suggested really affect the match up.

For Bastiladons: I don't know; maybe a slight cost reduction, but they probably don't need any changes. They'll always be a niche pick, and that's fine.

Feral cold ones and bola terradons (and maybe normal terradons as well) could definitely use some buffs.

The +192 hp on feral cold ones in the patch probably won't help them, considering they're probably the worst unit in the game right now, so a tiny buff like this isn't going to matter much. They lose to dark riders and spider riders (comparable units at the same price/cheaper) in melee, are slower and more vulnerable to missile fire due to larger models and substantially less HP, and they rampage, so you can't even control them once they've gone in or been shot a bit. Their cost could be dropped to 350 and they would likely still be bad with their current stats. They'd need a substantial HP buff (To maybe 3500 or more) to be maybe worth their current price at their current stats/model count, or maybe an increased model count from 24 to 30, or to 36 with a nerf to weapon damage to compensate for the 50% model count increase.


IDK about the rest. From what's I've seen so far, non-feral Dread saurians might warrant some extra missile resist or a cost reduction, but it's hard to say anything definitively before the patch actually hits. A few videos isn't really enough to make a clear judgement, and Dread saurians are the sort of unit that shouldn't be a go-to pick in multiplayer. As long as they have a niche (probably vs VC), they're in a good spot.

900 gold for ~10 leadership, no rampage, and the shooting attack probably isn't worth it though. With skink chiefs on foot being extremely cheap sources of cold blooded, it's not like rampage is really an issue.

In general, I think Lizardmen are, and will be, in a pretty good place, and most of what's been shown wasn't the final build.

Lord_Distamorfin#1941

I'd rather see the Ark of Sotek get an actual buff instead of a cost reduction just to make it a bit more useful in campaign.

Smitty404

In early builds people mainly focus on bringing builds with new units, not necessarily the most competitive builds.

Energyzed#6772

Disagree with most of what you said but no need to be sherlock holmes to see that the new units that Liz are getting with the DLC are redundant for multiplayer.
Dread Saurians are too expensive to bring on most games. Razordon hunting pack are just a worse version of salamanders. Only ancient Kroxigors will change how some current matches are played. But even then, as all the new units fall on the category of large and armoured (like alredy more than half Liz roster), they would not change at all the army composiont you bring with other factions when facing Liz.

nonentity said:

So you want Bret vs LZM to be more impossible than it already is?

Bret was screwed vs lizardmen even before they recieved their first DLC. It is what assimetric balance and difference between factions has. Even though Liz is one of the first factions recieving a second DLC, there is still room to buff the units on their roster that are on need of it. Pointing out that Liz cant recieve buffs because Bretonia has a bad match up against them, is as bad of an argument as saying that bretonia cant recieve buffs because of HE.

yst#1879

Lord_Distamorfin said:

I'd rather see the Ark of Sotek get an actual buff instead of a cost reduction just to make it a bit more useful in campaign.

They will NEVER in a trillion years EVER be viable. One of the most pure garbage unit ever in game. The worst of the worst that ever existed in totalwar, they held the top 1-2 stop before, now its a clear loser topping the #1 spot with the new unit cap. Even dethroning the infamous trash can of empire.

We will know soon enough if saurian will top that spot. By the looks of it they r gonna top that list. They better have 20,000 mass, mad splash animation that makes them completely invulnerable to spears or something stupid. Their costs right now is just bat crap insane.

Rubbish of sotek gonna need at least $400 worth of buffs to ever be viable

Nielspeterdejong

How would the following boons sound?

1: Grant all Lizardmen units an additional 10% bonus missile resistance on top of their current ones, similar to how the Dwarfs have at least 25% magic resistance. This way their huge monsters won’t melt, and it fits the Mayan theme of rushing warriors. Plus it represents their tabletop scaly skins trait

2: Make it so that their Cold blooded ability also gives the affected target a bonus to their Melee Defense and more Missile Resistance. This will allow more uses for your Cold Blooded ability, and will also make it more thematic.

turrehund#8512

Nielspeterdejong said:

How would the following boons sound?

1: Grant all Lizardmen units an additional 10% bonus missile resistance on top of their current ones, similar to how the Dwarfs have at least 25% magic resistance. This way their huge monsters won’t melt, and it fits the Mayan theme of rushing warriors. Plus it represents their tabletop scaly skins trait

2: Make it so that their Cold blooded ability also gives the affected target a bonus to their Melee Defense and more Missile Resistance. This will allow more uses for your Cold Blooded ability, and will also make it more thematic.

These are definitely some OP boons.

hanen

Nielspeterdejong said:

How would the following boons sound?

1: Grant all Lizardmen units an additional 10% bonus missile resistance on top of their current ones, similar to how the Dwarfs have at least 25% magic resistance. This way their huge monsters won’t melt, and it fits the Mayan theme of rushing warriors. Plus it represents their tabletop scaly skins trait

2: Make it so that their Cold blooded ability also gives the affected target a bonus to their Melee Defense and more Missile Resistance. This will allow more uses for your Cold Blooded ability, and will also make it more thematic.

1. Why should only LM monsters get missile resist?
2. Why is this more thematic?

Lotus_Moon#2452

its horrible suggestion and OP one at that.

glosskilos#4009

Energyzed said:

Disagree with most of what you said but no need to be sherlock holmes to see that the new units that Liz are getting with the DLC are redundant for multiplayer.
Dread Saurians are too expensive to bring on most games. Razordon hunting pack are just a worse version of salamanders. Only ancient Kroxigors will change how some current matches are played. But even then, as all the new units fall on the category of large and armoured (like alredy more than half Liz roster), they would not change at all the army composiont you bring with other factions when facing Liz.

nonentity said:

So you want Bret vs LZM to be more impossible than it already is?

Bret was screwed vs lizardmen even before they recieved their first DLC. It is what assimetric balance and difference between factions has. Even though Liz is one of the first factions recieving a second DLC, there is still room to buff the units on their roster that are on need of it. Pointing out that Liz cant recieve buffs because Bretonia has a bad match up against them, is as bad of an argument as saying that bretonia cant recieve buffs because of HE.

Are razordons really that bad? I’m not convinced. Everybody was trying to use them like salamanders and I think that was a mistake. To me it seems like they’re more designed to kill armored infantry.

Pippington#5795

I gave them a quick test this morning before I left for work and they did pretty nice damage on Chaos Warriors (Great Weapons). Nothing crazy but nothing shabby either. I don't know if they're worth 900 warhammer bucks at the moment, but I think with incremental tweaks it won't be hard for them to find a niche.

Aerocrastic

Players in early access tournaments NEVER have enough time to create any sort of meta with new units, I would not use results from those to be descriptive of actual performance at all. That said, while the lizard outriders might be kind of weak, the dread saurian was never taken in any matchup it might have been good in. It was entirely for entertainment purposes in all cases it was seen.

That said my personal opinion is

Dread Saurian all variants -2000 HP, Feral: 2300->2100, Normal 3100->2700, RoR, 3800->3300
Razordons increase range from 90 to 100

and everything else is probably fine? Nerf to red crested skinks this patch seems weird to me though, I feel they were fine at 575

TellTale_Scar

I think razordons need a good bit of help. With 90 range, I think they are doomed to be worst unit in the roster.

The formation of Razordons (and Salamanders too) are finicky. Oftentimes they are slow to respond and clunky to get into position. Salamanders are widely regarded as being micro intensive with 125 range.

In their current iteration, I think they just need range. The damage is good (granted at basically point blank range), though they might need more ammo.

They're close to being good, just too niche atm.

FerrousTarkus

LM destroy beastmen and Norsca still.