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Nakai: CA tried to fix Hordes by turning them into Wood Elves

SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
(before I go on I'd like to clarify that I love the DLC and I'm very pleased that we got Nakai and that CA has been listening to our feedback. They have done and continue to do amazing work that I love and respect and it is out of that love and respect that I bring this up, in the hopes that we can continue to see further improvements in the future)

Hordes are (in theory) my favourite way to play the game and it pains me that WH hasn't gotten it right just yet (Vampire coast worked but they also had settlements and coves).

With Nakai, CA has made many improvements on the basic horde formula and stated publicaly that they've been listening and want to give hordes more direction.

Nakai is no doubt an improvement in many ways and making him a nomad that works on behalf of the Lizardmen was a no brainer...but having his vassal "the defenders of the great plan" be a static helpless AI faction is an issue.

Since CA is well aware of the issues with Hordes and the issues with the Wood elves, I'm not sure how, but they've managed to combine the two: Nakai's vassal functions exactly like Wood Elf outposts to the letter and they have almost the exact same problems.

You can't construct any buildings and they stick out like a sore thumb with no real way to defend themselves, so you spend most of your time going to one end of your lands to defend it and then the other gets attacked, so you go back and the cycle repeats.

The only difference is that with Nakai you are able to summon an army for your vassal but these armies aren't in your direct control (they're WAAGHZ! Essentially), they don't replenish and they cannot capture cities in their own. (They also cost a substantial amount of your "old ones favour" currency)

The Lizardmen already have the ability to summon an army and their summoned army is in your direct control, unlike Nakai's.

The worst part about the defenders of the great plan is the fact that when you play Nakai you are supposed to look after the Lizardmen but instead you have to watch the other factions die or replace them with your hollow vassal outposts.

This leads me to my next point:

How to fix the issue

They got the right idea but the execution is a marriage of the two most broken campaigns in the trilogy.

When playing as Nakai, the fruit of your labour should be a Lustria entirely comprised of the alliance of all the Lizardmen factions; factions that you protected and brought together.

You wouldn't even have to remove the three god devotion system:

- Remove the Defenders of the Great plan faction from the game.

- instead, have Nakai work on behalf of the other lizardmen factions of Lustria.

- when Nakai captures a settlement, he can choose to sack it, Raze it or give it to another Lizardmen faction of his choosing.

- give Nakai the unique ability to liberate other lizardmen factions who have been destroyed.

- replace the rite that spawns an army for your vassal with a rite that aids the other factions in lustria

- the temple Nakai chooses to dedicate his victory to becomes one of the buildings within your allies settlement and offers minor buffs to them and to you (something like: increased winds of magic in adjacent provinces or perhaps a small garrison that you are allowed to control that lets you take part in their siege battles without your armies being there)

I think the campaign is alot better than Chaos or the Beastmen but it will needs alot of work. Unfortunately this isn't the only issue with Nakai's campaign.

What say you? Have you found this to be an issue as well?

Comments

  • BaronRodney#9956BaronRodney#9956 Registered Users Posts: 1,283
    I like all of your ideas here. It sounds like a plan to me
  • SephlockSephlock Registered Users Posts: 2,823
    Not bad.

    If nothing else, they could just give the Defenders decent garrisons so it isn't necessary to babysit them and you can do what you really ought to be able to do with Bretonnia- go off questing to far off lands and/or help your neighbors as you see fit.
  • M36_JacksonM36_Jackson Registered Users Posts: 12
    Agreed. These ideas sound MUCH better.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    edited September 2019
    Addendum:

    CA implemented a new system in this DLC where they changed the landscape of the campaigns for different starts (for example: Wulfhart owns considerably more land if you start a campaign as Nakai).

    This is great! it makes his Campaign feel like the Mini Campaigns we saw with the Wood Elf and Beastmen DLC way back when.

    this might be asking for a little too much, but perhaps in keeping with this mini campaign idea: Instead of having Nakai just choose whoever he wants to take control of his newly conquered settlements, what if his mission was to give the regions back to their rightful owners in the lore (and perhaps even resurrect some miscellaneous Lizardmen factions from the dead to occupy their rightful place as well.

    This way, once you play out your part in the Great Plan, Lustria will look exactly as it once did before their civilisation was pushed to the brink by chaos and fell into decline.

    Just a thought.
  • Steph_F_DavidSteph_F_David Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,489

    CA implemented a new system in this DLC where they changed the landscape of the campaigns for different starts (for example: Wulfhart owns considerably more land if you start a campaign as Nakai).

    I don't think it's new. If you start as Karl Franz, you have separatist, but I thnk they do'nt exist if Karl Franz is AI

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @steph74

    I know what you mean but They had an announcement about 'a whole new system' for it that they were implementating yesterday.
  • KandennKandenn Registered Users Posts: 504
    edited September 2019



    - Remove the Defenders of the Great plan faction from the game.

    - instead, have Nakai work on behalf of the other lizardmen factions of Lustria.

    - when Nakai captures a settlement, he can choose to sack it, Raze it or give it to another Lizardmen faction of his choosing.

    - give Nakai the unique ability to liberate other lizardmen factions who have been destroyed.

    This. When the DLC was first announced i thought that it would be the way Nakai would work. I'm ok with the vassal system but again, i thought it would be a true faction able to defend itself, makes alliance, trade... Now if you have to babysit them :/

    Love your idea !
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    I actually disagree. Already the existence of a faction vassal diminishes your role in ruling and maintaining an empire and adding on other LM factions removes it even further since you don't need to even confed them in order to make them your territory, they are such by default. And more factions means it's even harder to actually fail.

    Furthermore it makes it impossible to fulfill the sandbox part of fighting other LM factions. What if they attack me? And I destroy em? I would probably want a vassal LM faction rather than another NPC.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • Reeks#2417Reeks#2417 Registered Users Posts: 10,246
    Agree and very nice idea´s



    Nurgle is love

    Nurgle is life

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  • UgandaJim#4927UgandaJim#4927 Registered Users Posts: 687
    Yes on top of that, the defenders get at a certain point trouble wirh your allies resulting in war. Thats stupid.

    My vassal should have the same political directions I have.
  • MeGa_N00B#2436MeGa_N00B#2436 Registered Users Posts: 1,142
    edited September 2019
    Hordes are just boring, plain and simple.

    As the map gets bigger more boring the hordes become. This DLC just showed me that if the game 3 has horde factions as core races I might just wait for a sale. (Yeah, I started to despise horde game play that much lately.)

    Really their game play is so boring, at this point I do not think CA can fix it. They should have had some sort of settlement system, maybe like Wood Elves or maybe like Norsca, with being only able to build forts on very few select settlements, however those settlement should be mighty 10-12 slots big.

    I liked milkandcookies video about them, they just feel like end turn simulators.

    Edit: Everything else in the DLC is very nice, especially the Markus mechanics and new units but hate the horde gameplay.
  • TortuTortu Registered Users Posts: 3
    Crossil said:

    I actually disagree. Already the existence of a faction vassal diminishes your role in ruling and maintaining an empire and adding on other LM factions removes it even further since you don't need to even confed them in order to make them your territory, they are such by default. And more factions means it's even harder to actually fail.

    Furthermore it makes it impossible to fulfill the sandbox part of fighting other LM factions. What if they attack me? And I destroy em? I would probably want a vassal LM faction rather than another NPC.

    I agree with cossil ; horde factions like the other have to be more than just a support to the others .

    My solution would be more plain and simple, limit the capitals province grow until 3 tier, and the rest on tier 1 , u have to play mainly with ur horde and just have little towns that support u with unique buildings .
  • AnothaGit#1778AnothaGit#1778 Registered Users Posts: 309
    It really needs the proposed changes because his allies are so ´dead´.

    Also...haven´t checked but do the allies actually get the Geomantic Pylons because if they don´t making the allies stronger is weakening the Great Plan which is probably wrong.

    Also the ME start on Albion...not an island known for its lush tropical vegetation i think...
  • Sir_Godspeed#8395Sir_Godspeed#8395 Registered Users Posts: 3,620
    Wouldn't this make Nakai and the Lizardmen massively overpowered collectively?
  • LeiccLeicc Registered Users Posts: 20
    Absolutely agree with the similar feeling between nakai and the wood elves. Cant defend settlements everywhere and if they are lost, you may loose improvements and income.
    In the case of the wood elves is more annoying since you need amber to do "something" in the campaign. (improve settlements for better units).
    At least nakai can survive with the 2500 base income, thats enough to support his own army, you can "wander" around and kill stuff anyways.

    There are some design issues with the solutions presented:

    The other lizardmen factions wont be your vassals at the start, and maybe never. With that said, your income becomes the base 2500 plus the post battles loot and the razes you can get. Nakai cant raid, "raze" gives less money in comparison to other horde factions, making it really difficult to have more than one army. The idea is to make Nakai play different than the other hordes, so I understand why he gets less upkeep reductions and less money for razing, he gets money by conquering for others.
    The other lizarmen factions can declare war on you anytime, as someone said before, fighting their settlements just to give them back to them...its weird.
    If the other lizardmen factions protect the settlements that you gave them, theres almost no way you can loose the campaign, you would probably end with a steamroll since turn one (boring). You can maintain an elite army with the 2500 base income and that's it, nothing to protect (if your allies are ok), nothing to really care about.

    The idea of having to protect the conquered lands of your vassal makes the faction work similar to others in terms of building empires. The problem, as the op stated, is that "your" lands expands a lot and the new income you get is little, so you must use your horde armies to babysit the conquered lands without being able to fight wars on distant continents.

    One solution could be that the armies that are on one of your vassals territories get an "x" amount of army upkeep reduction (15% - 30%), so you can maintain more hordes to defend and be at war with anyone, but the reduction is lost (or even the upkeep is increased) if the army leaves to fight in other lands. The conqueror force should be small and focused on the type of enemy you are facing.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @Crossil

    Right but you wouldn't have to babysit all of them because they could actually take care of themselves and you can ressurect them if needs be.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927

    @Crossil

    Right but you wouldn't have to babysit all of them because they could actually take care of themselves and you can ressurect them if needs be.

    Which makes the campaign far more hands off than any other. You literally have no other way of functioning other than creating extremely powerful allies who you wouldn't be able to match because you're a horde.

    Also, the way you explained it doesn't really offer a way to confed them so you would be stuck without other LLs. Me, personally, I want to see the selective confed they had implemented for Nakai before to be implemented with VP and TK, barring Arkhan(and probably Aranessa) from confederating while the rest can.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    edited September 2019
    @Crossil

    You make a good distinction, im not saying that you start the campaign with everyone as your vassal, I'm saying you work for everyone whether they like it or not.

    Instead of getting money from your vassals you could get money from the temples you construct. This way his economy is unaltered.

    I don't think Nakai should be able to Confederate other LM factions. Instead, the goal should be to have everyone eventually accept you as your vassal which you can achieve by giving them land and stuff.

    Markus has his 4 heroes and I think Nakai should have a similar goal to recruit the other 4 Lizardmen lords by giving them enough land, completing missions for them etc.

    They said they wanted to give him more direction and what better way to do that than giving him a goal for late in his campaign to recruit the other LL's.

    Confederating is still a nightmare anyway and the more you support them, the less likely it will be so this would be a great way to bypass that.
  • PretenderPretender Registered Users Posts: 30
    edited September 2019
    Here's some of my suggestions to fix Nakai;

    My biggest problem with him is that it's very tempting from player psychology to just sit and wait for things in your region to develop in such a way that your army can take it. You can do that one of two ways; you can have your stack around already to react quickly, but tank your economy or you can have nothing around and risk getting trashed on the first occasion.

    So, my suggestions are the following;

    - Whenever Nakai and his Hordes are in a region benefiting from a skink chief income buff, they should instead reduce upkeep. For Nakai's faction, upkeep reduction comes down to generating wealth.
    - Give Nakai the following ability; whenever he enters the trance state or the ambush state (either one of them; I think both could make sense), allow him to move instantly to one of his hero characters anywhere on the map, at the cost of favor. This plays into his lore of appearing where he is needed; having one of his agents call upon him when they witness an event that Nakai would be able to help with would help considerably. Note that I don't think this should be true for his other Hordes, this should be unique to Nakai. Maybe rename the stance to "Spirit of the Jungle".

    I agree with the changes in the above thread. I generally dislike the Defenders faction, because it feels even more like a generic lizardmen faction than the others do, except each settlement is more or less the same. I would personally say that Nakai should basically the same benefits for being in a defensive alliance with other lizardmen factions, while also having a harder time getting along with them.

    In other words, basically have them treat him with a level of disinterest at the start and build up your esteem with the different lizardmen factions by fighting the people they are fighting and giving them temple cities. It'd also be a sweet thing to have Nakai do the same for the player when he's an NPC faction, giving you free expansions if he happened to destroy a neighboring settlement, giving you incentive to tag along.

    In one of the threads, someone mentioned that 'not everyone likes painting the map their color', but I ironically feel like that is exactly what Nakai is. You're just coloring the map and when you've hit a roadblock, you're kind of forced to wander into a beneficial situation. Nakai should feel a lot more dynamic than this. Not because I think that he has this ability in the lore (I have no idea), but because that fits his character as a lone wolf answering to higher powers to restore Lizardmen lands.
    Post edited by Pretender on
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @Pretender

    All great ideas worth considering.

    I never really thought about it but you're so right: there is nothing in game right now that represents the idea that he 'appears when he is needed most'

    really feels like CA thought up Nakai as a feature of Wulfhart's campaign first and made him his own faction as an after thought.
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