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Why focus on LM?

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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,116Registered Users
    Nyxilis said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Arsenic said:

    They waited about a year to get any new content at all, so can't really begrudge them getting all theirs in two fell swoops, as it were.

    Especially as it seems as if the pace of content might be picking up a bit, so those other races won't have to wait as long for their shiny new toys.

    Of course you can befgrudge it when other races needed FAR more attention than LM.
    Like it or lump it, game 2 races are going to get more attention at the moment since it's mostly game 2 that's paying the bills... and possibly also an element that apart from the skaven, it's likely to be hard to work game 2 races into game 3 lord packs.
    Eh, not really, they can plot macguffin any individual lord to about any point. Get x item, magic, blah blah blah.
    Sure, they COULD, but it's still more of a stretch than races that do have a confirmed presence in the Dark Lands (GS, Sk, VC, BM, WoC) or are next door and potentially in the game 3 map depending on how much overlap there is (Empire, Dwarfs).

    We'll see how things shake out, and obviously the game 1 races shouldn't be completely neglected, but if I was CA, I'd certainly be looking to have HE, DE, and LM in a 'done' state before moving to game 3, while expansions to other races may be a more natural fit for game 3.
    It's not a could it's an already did it many times.

    Nakai, Markus, Khatep, Teclis, Khalida, Tretch, Tictac, and... get the point yet? I mean the TK are the most extreme obvious example of CA putting people in places for plot macguffins and GW did it to. Once more, TK invade Norsca, as in the majority of the TK forces invaded Norsca for a lengthy time.

    So if they can put Khatep in Naggaroth and Markus in north Lustria they can put any single lord they want to in the Darklands for the same reasons.

    Marius has come to the Darklands with an expedition force to put down a daemon. Or a HE lord. Thanquol has come to party. Chaos Dwarves have an artifact the LM need so they zap an entire army into the area. Or or or or or.

    It's not hard. It's not even a wait and see. Given they spread out every lord set even more now. It's really more, how many times they will do it rather than an if.
    Except that they're probably also going to have a ton of LLs to find space for just from the Game 3 races alone. If we assume four core races and two campaign packs, we're looking at about twenty-four LLs at a minimum, and that's a number that many people would likely find disappointing. If we assume monogods as campaign packs, that number becomes 32. If each of the core races ultimately gets 5-6 lords and we assume a cross-game pack or two, we're looking at 40 or more, and this may still be a conservative estimate.

    Where are these lords all going to go? A lot of people believe the datamine is still predictive, and there's not a lot of space left according to the datamine, although for the combined map there is still space available in the Southern Realms, eastern Empire, and Kislev. Even if the actual map is bigger than the datamine suggests (and I really think it has to be), I suspect CA is going to be too busy finding spaces for LLs of races that do have sustained presence and interest in the region over races that rarely visit.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 3,192Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Arsenic said:

    They waited about a year to get any new content at all, so can't really begrudge them getting all theirs in two fell swoops, as it were.

    Especially as it seems as if the pace of content might be picking up a bit, so those other races won't have to wait as long for their shiny new toys.

    Of course you can befgrudge it when other races needed FAR more attention than LM.
    Like it or lump it, game 2 races are going to get more attention at the moment since it's mostly game 2 that's paying the bills... and possibly also an element that apart from the skaven, it's likely to be hard to work game 2 races into game 3 lord packs.
    Eh, not really, they can plot macguffin any individual lord to about any point. Get x item, magic, blah blah blah.
    Sure, they COULD, but it's still more of a stretch than races that do have a confirmed presence in the Dark Lands (GS, Sk, VC, BM, WoC) or are next door and potentially in the game 3 map depending on how much overlap there is (Empire, Dwarfs).

    We'll see how things shake out, and obviously the game 1 races shouldn't be completely neglected, but if I was CA, I'd certainly be looking to have HE, DE, and LM in a 'done' state before moving to game 3, while expansions to other races may be a more natural fit for game 3.
    It's not a could it's an already did it many times.

    Nakai, Markus, Khatep, Teclis, Khalida, Tretch, Tictac, and... get the point yet? I mean the TK are the most extreme obvious example of CA putting people in places for plot macguffins and GW did it to. Once more, TK invade Norsca, as in the majority of the TK forces invaded Norsca for a lengthy time.

    So if they can put Khatep in Naggaroth and Markus in north Lustria they can put any single lord they want to in the Darklands for the same reasons.

    Marius has come to the Darklands with an expedition force to put down a daemon. Or a HE lord. Thanquol has come to party. Chaos Dwarves have an artifact the LM need so they zap an entire army into the area. Or or or or or.

    It's not hard. It's not even a wait and see. Given they spread out every lord set even more now. It's really more, how many times they will do it rather than an if.
    Except that they're probably also going to have a ton of LLs to find space for just from the Game 3 races alone. If we assume four core races and two campaign packs, we're looking at about twenty-four LLs at a minimum, and that's a number that many people would likely find disappointing. If we assume monogods as campaign packs, that number becomes 32. If each of the core races ultimately gets 5-6 lords and we assume a cross-game pack or two, we're looking at 40 or more, and this may still be a conservative estimate.

    Where are these lords all going to go? A lot of people believe the datamine is still predictive, and there's not a lot of space left according to the datamine, although for the combined map there is still space available in the Southern Realms, eastern Empire, and Kislev. Even if the actual map is bigger than the datamine suggests (and I really think it has to be), I suspect CA is going to be too busy finding spaces for LLs of races that do have sustained presence and interest in the region over races that rarely visit.
    Yeah, right off the bat with the first line. That's not a problem, theyr'e not going to have a lot. Game comes out they're likely going to have 2 per. Hm.. that's a whopping six. Maybe preorder unless it's like Norsca then that just fills out game 2 more. They can easily have a larger version of the Darklands and surrounding territories for The Vortex equivalent then move around whomever they wish for the greater ME map. It's not a problem, it's kinda so not a problem it's a joke that it's being suggested.

    The whole sum of the Darklands is mostly empty. Big areas where there really isn't any true faction laying claim. If they make it accurately it's going to be more barren than the Empire was post additions but it's not going to be. It's gonna fill up with whatever they dredge out of some GW ancient file or even invent a few locations.

    HE islands to the south, empty tillt hey slap a HE lord, or a DE lord. Or the fact the entire coastline is empty really. And we can't even assume the DoC will hold territory traditionally. They could portal in like Daemons actually do, be a horde, or something entirely unique. If they expand right up into the chaos wastes then they'll likely start there and slither down through some corruption mechanic possibly. Any of the ways, there the least of the concerns, especially monogods which will just come down from the wastes.

    Because, lets also not pretend most of The Vortex map is really utilized, in fact a lot of it is empty space. Naggaroth, Ulthuan, the isthmus between Naggaroth and Lustria. And it's only just now getting crowded in Lustria. And even then, they don't actually have to have a new starting area. At some point they might finally restack.

    But overall, I find that point amazingly weak.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,116Registered Users
    edited September 16
    Nyxilis said:


    Yeah, right off the bat with the first line. That's not a problem, theyr'e not going to have a lot. Game comes out they're likely going to have 2 per. Hm.. that's a whopping six.

    Sure, there's likely to be only eight legendary lords in the initial release of game 3. But if we use game 2 as the yardstick, there's likely going to be 24 legendary lords on the map before CA even thinks about doing cross-game packs - the initial 8, four more from lord packs, four more from FLC, and eight more from campaign packs.

    And that's if there are only six races in game 3, and game 3 being limited to six races is guaranteed to disappoint people, since that either means no monogod races or no order races (four monogods + ogres + chaos dwarfs = six races).

    The Vortex map might not be fully utilised, but the practical limit on how many LLs there can be without things starting to feel cramped is going to be the combined map. Parts of that are already starting to feel like they're squeezing a lot into a small space, and if the datamine is to be believed, it's only going to be adding half as much territory as game 2 did. Granted, not as much of that territory is going to be water, but it's still a smaller area.

    Now, I personally think it's not to be believed, but even if it's double the size the datamine would suggest (which is about what I think would be needed to do justice to both the Dark Lands and the Mountains of Mourne), that's still going to start feeling crowded if that territory has lords from more than six races plus representatives from the Old World races that we know have a presence in the Dark Lands. There's a long wishlist for Game 3, and while some items on that wishlist are longshots (anything from the Far East, for instance), I could easily see nine races without dipping into the "long shots" barrel. Some of those would likely be able to be moved into some of the less crowded areas of the Old World or even the New World for the combined campaign, similar to Ikit starting in Skavenblight for the combined campaign, but some won't.

    If the map extends further than the Dark Lands, Mountains of Mourne, and possibly the Chaos Wastes north of them, this would allow for more space, but would also bring in even more possibilities for races.

    You'd have to have a pretty pessimistic view of what's going to be in game 3 to seriously think there's going to be a lot of empty space left after the game 3 races, and a few legendary lords for races which do have strong presences in the region such as greenskins, skaven, and VCs, have been covered. With all that material to fill that space with, if I was CA, I really wouldn't be planning on the assumption that there'll be an empty space I'd want to find a justification for filling with a lizardmen or elf LL. Which, in turn, explains focusing on Lizardmen now - which is, of course, the point of this thread.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 3,192Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    Nyxilis said:


    Yeah, right off the bat with the first line. That's not a problem, theyr'e not going to have a lot. Game comes out they're likely going to have 2 per. Hm.. that's a whopping six.

    Sure, there's likely to be only eight legendary lords in the initial release of game 3. But if we use game 2 as the yardstick, there's likely going to be 24 legendary lords on the map before CA even thinks about doing cross-game packs - the initial 8, four more from lord packs, four more from FLC, and eight more from campaign packs.

    And that's if there are only six races in game 3, and game 3 being limited to six races is guaranteed to disappoint people, since that either means no monogod races or no order races (four monogods + ogres + chaos dwarfs = six races).

    The Vortex map might not be fully utilised, but the practical limit on how many LLs there can be without things starting to feel cramped is going to be the combined map. Parts of that are already starting to feel like they're squeezing a lot into a small space, and if the datamine is to be believed, it's only going to be adding half as much territory as game 2 did. Granted, not as much of that territory is going to be water, but it's still a smaller area.

    Now, I personally think it's not to be believed, but even if it's double the size the datamine would suggest (which is about what I think would be needed to do justice to both the Dark Lands and the Mountains of Mourne), that's still going to start feeling crowded if that territory has lords from more than six races plus representatives from the Old World races that we know have a presence in the Dark Lands. There's a long wishlist for Game 3, and while some items on that wishlist are longshots (anything from the Far East, for instance), I could easily see nine races without dipping into the "long shots" barrel. Some of those would likely be able to be moved into some of the less crowded areas of the Old World or even the New World for the combined campaign, similar to Ikit starting in Skavenblight for the combined campaign, but some won't.

    If the map extends further than the Dark Lands, Mountains of Mourne, and possibly the Chaos Wastes north of them, this would allow for more space, but would also bring in even more possibilities for races.

    You'd have to have a pretty pessimistic view of what's going to be in game 3 to seriously think there's going to be a lot of empty space left after the game 3 races, and a few legendary lords for races which do have strong presences in the region such as greenskins, skaven, and VCs, have been covered. With all that material to fill that space with, if I was CA, I really wouldn't be planning on the assumption that there'll be an empty space I'd want to find a justification for filling with a lizardmen or elf LL. Which, in turn, explains focusing on Lizardmen now - which is, of course, the point of this thread.
    There was a lot of empty space at the start of game 1, game 2. And there will be for game 3. The actual lore is mostly undeveloped and ca will move to fill as they see fit. I just find the assertion of space restricted game 2 characters to be found wanting.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,116Registered Users
    At the START, yes. But that space is going to be filled as DLC and FLC comes down the pipeline. I don't see CA planning in advance to squeeze a LL from a New World race in when there's plenty of races that do have significant presences in the region to choose from.

    The logical approach is to finish off HE, DE and LM, apart from things that could be FLC, and save space in the game 3 map for LLs that have an interest in the region.

    We've probably just seen that done for LM, troglodon disappointment notwithstanding. If there's two more lordpacks planned, the accompanying FLC means we're looking at two more races likely getting up to six lords.

    If I was in charge, I'd make this the two elves. Skaven would then get a cross-game pack in game 3 which brings the Verminlord. Probably Thanquol.

    (In part because game 3 will hopefully bring a proper 'demonic' tag, allowing the Verminlord to make use of that tag.)
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 3,192Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    At the START, yes. But that space is going to be filled as DLC and FLC comes down the pipeline. I don't see CA planning in advance to squeeze a LL from a New World race in when there's plenty of races that do have significant presences in the region to choose from.

    The logical approach is to finish off HE, DE and LM, apart from things that could be FLC, and save space in the game 3 map for LLs that have an interest in the region.

    We've probably just seen that done for LM, troglodon disappointment notwithstanding. If there's two more lordpacks planned, the accompanying FLC means we're looking at two more races likely getting up to six lords.

    If I was in charge, I'd make this the two elves. Skaven would then get a cross-game pack in game 3 which brings the Verminlord. Probably Thanquol.

    (In part because game 3 will hopefully bring a proper 'demonic' tag, allowing the Verminlord to make use of that tag.)

    Yep, and most of the Darklands is actual big empty space with plenty of spots to fill in. Just break out the map and actually look at it, try and lore fill every particular area and you're going to actually come up with some big holes that can be filled wtih all this stuff you're talking about.

    Even once it drags on it will be just fine. Even assuming they don't in fact expand the map a good deal heaving up into the wastes, and over to kislev, eastern empire, spine, and all that jazz.

    So yeah, still not seeing this supposed numbers game that will hedge out game 2 lords. They'll make whatever they think is good to sell and whom they themselves might have interest in. Be it 1 or 2.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,116Registered Users
    And once you've found space for four Chaos Dwarfs? Four ogres? At least four and possibly over twenty Chaos lords? A couple of Kislev lords? Maybe a DoW or two? Neferata in Silver Pinnacle? Maybe Nagash in Nagashizzar? A few skaven lairs and a significant greenskin presence, whether represented by a LL or not (it's bad enough that there are no greenskins in Naggaroth, having them get squeezed out of the Dark Lands would be a travesty)? The amount of space available is starting to look pretty thin, and I haven't even reached the bottom of the barrel of factions and lords that might be placed in the area without calling for a "it's an expedition to retrieve a macguffin" kind of reach.

    Sure, you could put Lizardmen in the Dragon Isles and High Elves in the City of Spires, but neither of these locations are associated with a LL (Lizardmen society in the Dragon Isles is explicitly stated to have collapsed) and by the time you've filled out the lords that do belong in the area, it's entirely likely that one or both of those will be somebody's early-game fodder. And AFAIK the Druchii have no permanent presence and little reason to visit (it's pretty much the hardest part of the world for them to reach and there are better slaves to be found elsewhere).

    Can CA throw them in if they wanted to? Of course they can.

    Is it something that they would be planning to do? I think there's good logical reason for CA to look at the area and think "we've got plenty to fill that with, we don't need to hold a Lizardmen lord back to put there, and we certainly don't need to go reaching for a reason why they'd suddenly be sending an expedition to the area when they haven't cared about it for millenia".

    And, when we're referring back to the topic of the thread... it's a good reason for CA to have focused on the Lizardmen now. Get them done and dusted in game 2 so there's nothing needed for them in game 3 except maybe a dwarf-style FLC update to upgrade out-of-date mechanics.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 3,192Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    And once you've found space for four Chaos Dwarfs? Four ogres? At least four and possibly over twenty Chaos lords? A couple of Kislev lords? Maybe a DoW or two? Neferata in Silver Pinnacle? Maybe Nagash in Nagashizzar? A few skaven lairs and a significant greenskin presence, whether represented by a LL or not (it's bad enough that there are no greenskins in Naggaroth, having them get squeezed out of the Dark Lands would be a travesty)? The amount of space available is starting to look pretty thin, and I haven't even reached the bottom of the barrel of factions and lords that might be placed in the area without calling for a "it's an expedition to retrieve a macguffin" kind of reach.

    Sure, you could put Lizardmen in the Dragon Isles and High Elves in the City of Spires, but neither of these locations are associated with a LL (Lizardmen society in the Dragon Isles is explicitly stated to have collapsed) and by the time you've filled out the lords that do belong in the area, it's entirely likely that one or both of those will be somebody's early-game fodder. And AFAIK the Druchii have no permanent presence and little reason to visit (it's pretty much the hardest part of the world for them to reach and there are better slaves to be found elsewhere).

    Can CA throw them in if they wanted to? Of course they can.

    Is it something that they would be planning to do? I think there's good logical reason for CA to look at the area and think "we've got plenty to fill that with, we don't need to hold a Lizardmen lord back to put there, and we certainly don't need to go reaching for a reason why they'd suddenly be sending an expedition to the area when they haven't cared about it for millenia".

    And, when we're referring back to the topic of the thread... it's a good reason for CA to have focused on the Lizardmen now. Get them done and dusted in game 2 so there's nothing needed for them in game 3 except maybe a dwarf-style FLC update to upgrade out-of-date mechanics.

    Not really, all depends how far west and east they go. If you include all of ogre territory in the east that's more than enough for them. DoC from the large empty north wastes. Cdwarf territory is large, then mounds of space all around. I can't help bit think your imagining this teensy space. They can blow it up for more space and detail then trim it down for ME and shuffle some lords around. It could be bigger than the game one map if they design it that way.

    I think CA will add whatever they think will sell or fans want. Not design a map that intentionally limits options.

    Boggles my mind you find this as any reason to deny a game 2 race access.
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 7,177Registered Users
    At least it makes the Lizards feel like a really cool and diverse race at the moment with loads of different options and starts and even mechanics.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,116Registered Users
    Nyxilis said:

    Draxynnic said:

    And once you've found space for four Chaos Dwarfs? Four ogres? At least four and possibly over twenty Chaos lords? A couple of Kislev lords? Maybe a DoW or two? Neferata in Silver Pinnacle? Maybe Nagash in Nagashizzar? A few skaven lairs and a significant greenskin presence, whether represented by a LL or not (it's bad enough that there are no greenskins in Naggaroth, having them get squeezed out of the Dark Lands would be a travesty)? The amount of space available is starting to look pretty thin, and I haven't even reached the bottom of the barrel of factions and lords that might be placed in the area without calling for a "it's an expedition to retrieve a macguffin" kind of reach.

    Sure, you could put Lizardmen in the Dragon Isles and High Elves in the City of Spires, but neither of these locations are associated with a LL (Lizardmen society in the Dragon Isles is explicitly stated to have collapsed) and by the time you've filled out the lords that do belong in the area, it's entirely likely that one or both of those will be somebody's early-game fodder. And AFAIK the Druchii have no permanent presence and little reason to visit (it's pretty much the hardest part of the world for them to reach and there are better slaves to be found elsewhere).

    Can CA throw them in if they wanted to? Of course they can.

    Is it something that they would be planning to do? I think there's good logical reason for CA to look at the area and think "we've got plenty to fill that with, we don't need to hold a Lizardmen lord back to put there, and we certainly don't need to go reaching for a reason why they'd suddenly be sending an expedition to the area when they haven't cared about it for millenia".

    And, when we're referring back to the topic of the thread... it's a good reason for CA to have focused on the Lizardmen now. Get them done and dusted in game 2 so there's nothing needed for them in game 3 except maybe a dwarf-style FLC update to upgrade out-of-date mechanics.

    Not really, all depends how far west and east they go. If you include all of ogre territory in the east that's more than enough for them. DoC from the large empty north wastes. Cdwarf territory is large, then mounds of space all around. I can't help bit think your imagining this teensy space. They can blow it up for more space and detail then trim it down for ME and shuffle some lords around. It could be bigger than the game one map if they design it that way.

    I think CA will add whatever they think will sell or fans want. Not design a map that intentionally limits options.

    Boggles my mind you find this as any reason to deny a game 2 race access.
    Going further west doesn't really change much - I'm already assuming that any cramping is going to be on the combined map more than the standalone map, so it's just going to transition into the Old World.

    Based on the datamine (which, I'll reiterate again, I do not consider to be fixed) the space left for the combined map may not be much larger than that chunk of the northern Southlands currently in Mortal Empires. If the map covers the ogre territories properly (which I consider to be a minimum to really do the region justice), you'd probably be looking at about the same amount of space as we currently having for the New World and Southlands for Mortal Empires.

    Parts of which are already starting to look cramped... and we've got at least two more lord packs, and therefore, at least four, probably six, more lords coming. Now, some of those may go into the Old World, but suffice it to say at this point I'm really not expecting them to try squeezing much more into Lustria or the northern Southlands. People seem to be hoping for three more to cover all the Game 1 cores or maybe to cover a couple of DLCs as well, but there's at least a good chance that the Dwarfs and Vampire Counts, let alone the DLC races, are not going to get a new lord in Game 2's run. (Certainly, we've had it said on Reddit that the VCs are unlikely to get a new LL for a while).

    There's a potential precedent there that not every race gets a lord in every release. And in that context, it would make sense for CA to not be planning to try to squeeze a LL of every race, or even of every core race, into Game 3 when there will be so many Game 3 races to place, and any space left over after that will have lords from game 1 and 2 races that do have genuine connections to the region.

    I'm not trying to "deny" anything. In fact, it boggles my mind that you'd accuse me of wanting to deny something to the High Elves in particular given our past history. Instead, I'm presenting a reason why CA might want to make sure that some of the Game 2 core races are as complete as possible before moving on to game 3. And the geographic realities - the fact that there are areas of the Game 2 part of the ME map that are already starting to feel cramped and the lord packs haven't all been done yet, and that if we try to give Game 3 content for every Game 1 and 2 core race we're looking at another eight starting positions after whatever the Game 3 races get before we even consider adding more lords to DLC races - suggest that there just might be some races that CA knows that they're not going to come back to in any substantial fashion after Game 3 launches, and if they know that they won't be coming back to a race later, it makes sense to finish it now.

    Which, to again attempt to relate things back to the thread topic rather than bickering in a vacuum - the topic is the question of why Lizardmen are being focused on. CA wanting to get certain races, including the Lizardmen, finished now because they know they won't have the opportunity to add much more to them later would certainly explain this, especially when compared to races which have more natural links to the regions east of the World's Edge.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 3,192Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    Nyxilis said:

    Draxynnic said:

    And once you've found space for four Chaos Dwarfs? Four ogres? At least four and possibly over twenty Chaos lords? A couple of Kislev lords? Maybe a DoW or two? Neferata in Silver Pinnacle? Maybe Nagash in Nagashizzar? A few skaven lairs and a significant greenskin presence, whether represented by a LL or not (it's bad enough that there are no greenskins in Naggaroth, having them get squeezed out of the Dark Lands would be a travesty)? The amount of space available is starting to look pretty thin, and I haven't even reached the bottom of the barrel of factions and lords that might be placed in the area without calling for a "it's an expedition to retrieve a macguffin" kind of reach.

    Sure, you could put Lizardmen in the Dragon Isles and High Elves in the City of Spires, but neither of these locations are associated with a LL (Lizardmen society in the Dragon Isles is explicitly stated to have collapsed) and by the time you've filled out the lords that do belong in the area, it's entirely likely that one or both of those will be somebody's early-game fodder. And AFAIK the Druchii have no permanent presence and little reason to visit (it's pretty much the hardest part of the world for them to reach and there are better slaves to be found elsewhere).

    Can CA throw them in if they wanted to? Of course they can.

    Is it something that they would be planning to do? I think there's good logical reason for CA to look at the area and think "we've got plenty to fill that with, we don't need to hold a Lizardmen lord back to put there, and we certainly don't need to go reaching for a reason why they'd suddenly be sending an expedition to the area when they haven't cared about it for millenia".

    And, when we're referring back to the topic of the thread... it's a good reason for CA to have focused on the Lizardmen now. Get them done and dusted in game 2 so there's nothing needed for them in game 3 except maybe a dwarf-style FLC update to upgrade out-of-date mechanics.

    Not really, all depends how far west and east they go. If you include all of ogre territory in the east that's more than enough for them. DoC from the large empty north wastes. Cdwarf territory is large, then mounds of space all around. I can't help bit think your imagining this teensy space. They can blow it up for more space and detail then trim it down for ME and shuffle some lords around. It could be bigger than the game one map if they design it that way.

    I think CA will add whatever they think will sell or fans want. Not design a map that intentionally limits options.

    Boggles my mind you find this as any reason to deny a game 2 race access.
    Going further west doesn't really change much - I'm already assuming that any cramping is going to be on the combined map more than the standalone map, so it's just going to transition into the Old World.

    Based on the datamine (which, I'll reiterate again, I do not consider to be fixed) the space left for the combined map may not be much larger than that chunk of the northern Southlands currently in Mortal Empires. If the map covers the ogre territories properly (which I consider to be a minimum to really do the region justice), you'd probably be looking at about the same amount of space as we currently having for the New World and Southlands for Mortal Empires.

    Parts of which are already starting to look cramped... and we've got at least two more lord packs, and therefore, at least four, probably six, more lords coming. Now, some of those may go into the Old World, but suffice it to say at this point I'm really not expecting them to try squeezing much more into Lustria or the northern Southlands. People seem to be hoping for three more to cover all the Game 1 cores or maybe to cover a couple of DLCs as well, but there's at least a good chance that the Dwarfs and Vampire Counts, let alone the DLC races, are not going to get a new lord in Game 2's run. (Certainly, we've had it said on Reddit that the VCs are unlikely to get a new LL for a while).

    There's a potential precedent there that not every race gets a lord in every release. And in that context, it would make sense for CA to not be planning to try to squeeze a LL of every race, or even of every core race, into Game 3 when there will be so many Game 3 races to place, and any space left over after that will have lords from game 1 and 2 races that do have genuine connections to the region.

    I'm not trying to "deny" anything. In fact, it boggles my mind that you'd accuse me of wanting to deny something to the High Elves in particular given our past history. Instead, I'm presenting a reason why CA might want to make sure that some of the Game 2 core races are as complete as possible before moving on to game 3. And the geographic realities - the fact that there are areas of the Game 2 part of the ME map that are already starting to feel cramped and the lord packs haven't all been done yet, and that if we try to give Game 3 content for every Game 1 and 2 core race we're looking at another eight starting positions after whatever the Game 3 races get before we even consider adding more lords to DLC races - suggest that there just might be some races that CA knows that they're not going to come back to in any substantial fashion after Game 3 launches, and if they know that they won't be coming back to a race later, it makes sense to finish it now.

    Which, to again attempt to relate things back to the thread topic rather than bickering in a vacuum - the topic is the question of why Lizardmen are being focused on. CA wanting to get certain races, including the Lizardmen, finished now because they know they won't have the opportunity to add much more to them later would certainly explain this, especially when compared to races which have more natural links to the regions east of the World's Edge.
    You go on and on at length how they have changed plans yet seem to ignore the giant fact the Vortex map was not part of that data mine was it? Whatever map they make for a primary campaign is likely to be a separate larger beast compared to the reduced ME version. So yeah you know positively nothing to the size of the eventual main campaign Darklands map.

    So it is in fact boggling your still going on that would so blindly match into that scenario with large evidence contrary to that point yet assert that other datamined elements have been so obviously changed when it suits your point in other debates.

    And with something like an artificial limiter like can't touch a warhammer 2 race is nonsense. Given that some of those races have significant presence like the skaven or the only ones who occupy certain areas.

    And back to the original topic, their not. Empire got arguably a lot more focus with the flc improvements and the lm suited their rivalry for the dlc.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,116Registered Users
    They're still going to need to fit all of the Game 3 material on the combined map.

    I could talk about the Game 3 equivalent of the Vortex map too, but odds are that like the Game 2 maps, the Game 3 regions added to the combined map will be trimmed and shrunk to fit, which means that it'll be the combined map where cramping is most extreme.

    But let's look at the Vortex map too. We're pretty sure there are at least six lords left to come, unless CA shifts their policy of every lord pack coming with an FLC lord. And there are regions in the Vortex that are pretty much already full. How much more full is it going to be when CA has to find space for 6-9 more LLs?

    Naggaroth has 7 lords (Malekith, Morathi, Hellebron, Alith Anar, Tretch, Clylostra, Khatep).

    Lustria has 11 lords (Mazdamundi, Tenehuini, Gor-Rok, Nakai, Skrolk, Ikit, Teclis, Lokhir, Khalida, Harkon, Markus)

    The Southlands have 5 lords (Queek, Kroq-Gar, Tiqtak'to, Arkhan, Settra)

    Ulthuan and its environs have four (Tyrion, Alarielle, Noctilus, Aranessa)

    Lustria is, I think, now pretty much full, with some LLs starting right next to each other and competing over their initial fodder targets. Apart from Naggaroth, however, the other continents have less land area. At a guesstimate, you could probably fit about four more into each region. Once you've sprinkled in 6-9 from 2-3 more lord packs, maybe another 2 for a preorder... I think we can safely say that the Vortex map will be pretty much full.

    Now, if we relate that back to game 3... if you're really expecting every core race of both game 1 and game 2 to get a LL somewhere in game 3, then unless they cut back on the lords for the game 3 races, you're looking at having more LLs for game 3 than for game 2... even before we start considering the possibility of adding more lords for DLC races as well. We're looking at somewhere between 33 and 38 LLs totaled up for the Vortex map. 5 LLs each for four core races, 4 LLs each for two campaign packs, and one LL for each Game 1 and Game 2 core race totals to 36... and that's the most conservative estimate.

    This would mean that the Game 3 map would either be more cramped than the Vortex map, or it'll have be larger - despite the Vortex map covering half of the Warhammer world (no, really, go back and look at the global maps). It's also an approach that would leave the Game 2 core races clear winners when it comes to LLs, since they'd likely be looking at a whopping seven each. Imagine how cramped it's going to be if CA tries for seven LLs per core race, each with a unique starting position. :open_mouth:

    The rational alternative is that some races just aren't going to have a LL present in the Game 3 map (just as I really don't think every Game 1 race is going to get a start on the Vortex map), and that CA is going to look at finishing off all paid-DLC-worthy content for those races before launching game 3.

    Honestly, I really don't understand why you're baulking at the idea that some game 2 core races might not have a presence on the final game 3 map that you're digging in and trying to deny that this is even a possibility. I internally debated whether it was worth taking the time looking at this thread again, let alone responding - I probably won't do so again.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 3,192Registered Users
    Draxynnic said:

    They're still going to need to fit all of the Game 3 material on the combined map.

    I could talk about the Game 3 equivalent of the Vortex map too, but odds are that like the Game 2 maps, the Game 3 regions added to the combined map will be trimmed and shrunk to fit, which means that it'll be the combined map where cramping is most extreme.

    But let's look at the Vortex map too. We're pretty sure there are at least six lords left to come, unless CA shifts their policy of every lord pack coming with an FLC lord. And there are regions in the Vortex that are pretty much already full. How much more full is it going to be when CA has to find space for 6-9 more LLs?

    Naggaroth has 7 lords (Malekith, Morathi, Hellebron, Alith Anar, Tretch, Clylostra, Khatep).

    Lustria has 11 lords (Mazdamundi, Tenehuini, Gor-Rok, Nakai, Skrolk, Ikit, Teclis, Lokhir, Khalida, Harkon, Markus)

    The Southlands have 5 lords (Queek, Kroq-Gar, Tiqtak'to, Arkhan, Settra)

    Ulthuan and its environs have four (Tyrion, Alarielle, Noctilus, Aranessa)

    Lustria is, I think, now pretty much full, with some LLs starting right next to each other and competing over their initial fodder targets. Apart from Naggaroth, however, the other continents have less land area. At a guesstimate, you could probably fit about four more into each region. Once you've sprinkled in 6-9 from 2-3 more lord packs, maybe another 2 for a preorder... I think we can safely say that the Vortex map will be pretty much full.

    Now, if we relate that back to game 3... if you're really expecting every core race of both game 1 and game 2 to get a LL somewhere in game 3, then unless they cut back on the lords for the game 3 races, you're looking at having more LLs for game 3 than for game 2... even before we start considering the possibility of adding more lords for DLC races as well. We're looking at somewhere between 33 and 38 LLs totaled up for the Vortex map. 5 LLs each for four core races, 4 LLs each for two campaign packs, and one LL for each Game 1 and Game 2 core race totals to 36... and that's the most conservative estimate.

    This would mean that the Game 3 map would either be more cramped than the Vortex map, or it'll have be larger - despite the Vortex map covering half of the Warhammer world (no, really, go back and look at the global maps). It's also an approach that would leave the Game 2 core races clear winners when it comes to LLs, since they'd likely be looking at a whopping seven each. Imagine how cramped it's going to be if CA tries for seven LLs per core race, each with a unique starting position. :open_mouth:

    The rational alternative is that some races just aren't going to have a LL present in the Game 3 map (just as I really don't think every Game 1 race is going to get a start on the Vortex map), and that CA is going to look at finishing off all paid-DLC-worthy content for those races before launching game 3.

    Honestly, I really don't understand why you're baulking at the idea that some game 2 core races might not have a presence on the final game 3 map that you're digging in and trying to deny that this is even a possibility. I internally debated whether it was worth taking the time looking at this thread again, let alone responding - I probably won't do so again.

    Yeah, except the bolded part doesn't matter, me does have a lot more room. Even if some individual areas are crowded many are not. Not has there ever been a promise of never stacking again which could very well still happen.

    You are also quite bizarre in some of your listings. Arenessa barely does anything with ulthuan on ME every Ikkit run I've done she allies with me then harrassed the Arabia coastline and my he ones onhad other people to deal with. And while Noctilus does affect ulthuan that is not remotely filling that ulthuan is still mostly empty. Reason we have threads and posts complaining about exactly that. It leaves you stretching to put Arenessa as a thing for them. Might as well say every coastal Bretonnia faction and Ikkit at that point. In other words, nonsense to include her.

    Nor did I at any point say that all of them will, but nor do I think CA us using such an artificial limiter. If they want to add a game 2 flc or dlc race because they like it and/or they simply will a d they will not at any point thing oh my gosh now we have to do ever other. I dont believe we will get that equality right now with game one races.

    So pretty much voids most of what you said cause *gasp* your making up rules no one follows and pretending Arenessa means much for Ulthuan.

    So I do not understand why you think a company would remove a tool and potential to earn money just because it came in game two.
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