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This DLC Feels like it has 1.25 Lords

SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
The DLC's for Warhammer have just gotten better and better with each new one released. CA has been building on the foundations of the 1st game in a way I didn't think think they would and the Old World updates themselves are another thing that have gotten relatively better and better.

Prophet and the Warlock and Hunter and the Beast are a new breed of Lord Pack all together, bringing in more than just units but also a truly unique campaign.

The problem that has arose these last two packs though is that, while the lord choices and units have mostly not disapointed, the problem is that in Both cases it has felt like CA has poured all of their resources into one over the other.

Prophet and the Warlock felt like a DLC with 1.5 lords: I love Tehenhauin but there is no denying that he has nothing on Ikit's campaign and even just after he released many of us already felt he could use a little post launch update.

Now with the Hunter and the Beast the divide between the two feels even bigger to the point where Nakai might as well have been FLC.

To Put it into perspective:

Markus Wulfhart


- Came with a complete overhaul of his entire race.

- The Empire received 16 new units and a new lord type.

- Unique faction mechanics for Markus that rivals or even surpasses Ikit in terms of Depth.

- 4 Unique new Legendary Heroes that quests built around them and RPG elements.

- He is put far away from any help and tasked with conquering the jungle or dying in it which (along with finding your hunters) gives you purpose and offers a great challenge.

Nakai the Wanderer


- Minor changes to the Lizardmens buildings (which don't affect him).

- 3 New lore's added for the Slann (and one taken away from single player)

- The Dread Saurian, A Kroxigor Variant, a Kroxigor lord (but not a hero?) and a Salamander Hunting Pack Reskin

- A Horde campaign where you have to look after a helpless vassal

- A Campaign that is Centred around killing Markus's 4 hunters and Fighting a Quest battle (this can be accomplished in under 100 turns. you don't have to kill markus or destroy his faction. you don't have to cleanse lustria of its enemies or help out other lords or anything)

and that's it.

Nakai's campaign is 100% just a tacked on addition to Markus (the only structure Nakai's campaign has is the task to kill the heroes that CA made for Wulfhart....and they don't even die, they are immortal).

CA stated that they wanted to give hordes more to do but Nakai has nothing to do. He is now a horde that has to babysit outposts like the Wood Elves.

How are we all felling on this one? I know there is still alot of excitement from the release and Nakai isn't quite as unplayable as Beastmen, Wood Elves or Chaos but hes almost there which breaks my heart.
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Comments

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    edited September 2019
    If CA has to raise the price to give us 2 actual Lords of Wulfhart's quality then raise the price.

    If it takes another few months to get this much content out then take the extra few months (or divert more people to the DLC)

    The community might not act like it but we will genuinely wait the extra time or pay £8 or so for the DLC if it means more quality and less having to fix it 2 years from now.

    Edit: also, can I just point out that the Lizardmen had the short end of the stick for eons and CA obviously meant to rectify this by giving them 2 DLC lords in a row and yet, both times the Lizardmen have been the ones that got thrown to the wayside...
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    That's solely down to the Empire having not gotten any updates since 2016 while the LM had already gotten a huge content dump in the previous patch as well as being several "generations" ahead of the Empire race sophistication-wise.

    Also, I don't find Tehenauin being any worse off than Ikit. He has a less powerful mechanic sure, but Ikit's, at least at launch, was severely OP and Tehenauin having to actually work for his made it better in my eyes. I simply not a fan of game that treat you like a baby that needs to be spoon-fed everything.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    edited September 2019
    @Ephraim_Dalton

    Yes but Tehenhauin has a completely gimped faction that has to rely on Skinks without getting the buffs to them (only tehenhauin gets the buffs) also, his sacrifice mechanic is rather lacking and the only thing he really has going for him.

    Tehenahauin's only themed Skink units are the Javelins and the Red Crested Skinks, thats kind of it. We don't have Great Crested Skinks who ride Cold ones or Tichi-Ichi's raiders who are Horned one riders, nor do they have any other real variants to speak of.

    Meanwhile Ikit got all the weapons teams, plus the ones that were already present in the game and he has his lab which I believe actually changes how the units look when you buy the upgrades for them.

    If the Empire needed content this bad then CA should have done a dual Empire Lord pack or just a single Empire Lord pack, this is absolutely no excuse to implement yet another lord onto the dogpile of factions that already need a rework/more depth.
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,082
    edited September 2019
    I don't think it's fair to include the FLC in the analysis. The FLC is great, but not part of the DLC itself. It comes with or without purchase. That said I think Empire's got the better deal here. Nakai would've been better if he could've gifted regions to a defensive LM faction. That's what I thought it was initially, that the outposts don't defend themselves is a bummer.

    I also find Tehen's campaign better than Ikit's due to how hard it was. I also think his units are better, offering some great value even if they weren't as expensive to make. How much a thing costs doesn't affect its value.
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  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @Vanilla_Gorilla

    Yes it did come with or without our purchase and yet it took up development time and the sheer size of it has clearly affected the Lord pack as a whole.

    Its not just a bummer, it doesn't work. As I said, its literally the same as the wood elves who are in dire need of an update and the removal of their terrible outposts, therefore nakai is now in that same boat with the wood elves and needs the exact same update that they do.

    Its not a matter of the campaign fitting or being hard, Tehen's campaign is not as well implemented and isn't nearly as thematic or deep.
  • Reeks#2417Reeks#2417 Registered Users Posts: 10,246
    I just finished a Vortex campaign with Nakai and i have to say even though i liked him in battles i´m not a huge fan of the way they set up that vassal faction, it´s just bland and boring to babysit it not to mention that it´s not working as i think CA intended it, even a single lord without units can besiege the vassal faction until attrition and wait for the death of the garrison, the vassal faction just sits there and takes it, after sailing the world with Nakai´s stack(witch was fun and i had many harrowing moments) i ended up bee-lining for the quest´s and the last hunter pretty much ignoring the vassal gimmick, i would love the idea someone else raised in another thread that one could gift regions conquered to other LM factions.



    Nurgle is love

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  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @Reeks

    That's not even the half of it.

    - you are unable to control your vassals in any way (Cant even get them to sally forth if they're besieged)

    - Your allies can and do declare war on your vassal.

    - You never get notified if one of your vassals settlements is besieged or even taken.

    - you have no visibility over their territory.

    - the armies you spawn for them are real expensive, only come once every 12 turns and misbehave more than the WAAAGHZ do so they constantly disobey your orders and get themselves killed.

    - because they give so little income: If you confederate another Lizardmen faction you will go bankrupt and have to disband all their units and likely have to keep the LL for later.

    I ended up doing the same and not caring about the Vassal at all.
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,375
    Nakai is a large step in the progress of Horde Factions, though.

    That's important for some of us. I enjoy him on Mortal Empires.

    It also gives me increased hope for playable Hobgoblins in game 3 <3
  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Registered Users Posts: 1,005
    Yeah Tehenhauin was definitely not as good as ikit. It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of fun.
    1. His sacrifice mechanic doesn't make sense: he always captures the same amount of sacrifices per battle
    2. Many rewards, such as followers and banners, are RNG based (yaaay! Surprise mechanics!)
    3. His way to unlock regiments of renown is worse than the one that other lords use.

    Then yes, I would add the fact that his units, the skinks, are complete trash, but I think that Tehenhauin is supposed to be the hard campaign for the Lizardmen, so it's ok if some of his units suck.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    Itharus said:

    Nakai is a large step in the progress of Horde Factions, though.

    That's important for some of us. I enjoy him on Mortal Empires.

    It also gives me increased hope for playable Hobgoblins in game 3 <3</p>

    Large steps how though? I thought the same way but I've been playing him and him alone and the only real improvement as of right now is his economy (which is built on crooked foundations) and the Ability to recruit from the mothership (which has its own issues, with minor hordes being almost useless)
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    Yeah Tehenhauin was definitely not as good as ikit. It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of fun.
    1. His sacrifice mechanic doesn't make sense: he always captures the same amount of sacrifices per battle
    2. Many rewards, such as followers and banners, are RNG based (yaaay! Surprise mechanics!)
    3. His way to unlock regiments of renown is worse than the one that other lords use.

    Then yes, I would add the fact that his units, the skinks, are complete trash, but I think that Tehenhauin is supposed to be the hard campaign for the Lizardmen, so it's ok if some of his units suck.

    Except that Tehenauin is guaranteed to get sacrifices every time he fights whereas Ikit gets his resource only as quest reward or at a very low chance from battles and hero actions (I'm actually thankful that they toned the acquisition chance seriously down). It's balanced that way because Ikit's improvements are permanent whereas Tehen has to repeat the sacrifices.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416

    Yeah Tehenhauin was definitely not as good as ikit. It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of fun.
    1. His sacrifice mechanic doesn't make sense: he always captures the same amount of sacrifices per battle
    2. Many rewards, such as followers and banners, are RNG based (yaaay! Surprise mechanics!)
    3. His way to unlock regiments of renown is worse than the one that other lords use.

    Then yes, I would add the fact that his units, the skinks, are complete trash, but I think that Tehenhauin is supposed to be the hard campaign for the Lizardmen, so it's ok if some of his units suck.

    Except that Tehenauin is guaranteed to get sacrifices every time he fights whereas Ikit gets his resource only as quest reward or at a very low chance from battles and hero actions (I'm actually thankful that they toned the acquisition chance seriously down). It's balanced that way because Ikit's improvements are permanent whereas Tehen has to repeat the sacrifices.
    How does this make Tehen anywhere near on par with Ikit, Ikit was obviously the new gold standard for how deep and well themed campaigns can and should be. Tehenahauin is another faction that hasnt reached its potential yet (and might never get there)
  • Rheingold#6691Rheingold#6691 Registered Users Posts: 1,560
    I like all the new additions, they are all great including Tehenhauin. Really like Nakai as well. Can't agree that Lizards got the short end here. Problems with Nakai campaign including his vassals do need to be fixed though, which I'm confident they will.
    And no, I'd don't want to wait another couple of months for content. CA already release content slowly. Think the dlc's are getting better and better. Not perfect, but that's impossible.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    edited September 2019
    Rheingold said:

    I like all the new additions, they are all great including Tehenhauin. Really like Nakai as well. Can't agree that Lizards got the short end here. Problems with Nakai campaign including his vassals do need to be fixed though, which I'm confident they will.
    And no, I'd don't want to wait another couple of months for content. CA already release content slowly. Think the dlc's are getting better and better. Not perfect, but that's impossible.

    I don't dislike Tehenhauin or other new editions.

    I'm confident that CA will attempt to fix a broken system (His vassal) rather than replacing it and will leave him forever trashed because they wont waste the resources on one lord.

    If it means better content then a few more months is a small price to pay. If they don't get the time they need before release then we have to wait even longer for the content to be fixed (if it gets fixed)

  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Registered Users Posts: 1,005
    @Ephraim_Dalton yeah, he's guaranteed to get next to nothing every battle. 50 sacrifices don't buy anything powerful. Even 300 only have a low RNG chance to buy a good follower.

    It is way quicker to get the necessary warp fuel for a rocket or an upgrade.

    Also, why shouldn't sacrifices be guaranteed? I mean, you go to battle and if you win you always capture prisoners. It should be far more common to get many sacrifices than warp fuel. Capturing just 50 no matter how big the battle was doesn't make sense. I don't know how it can make sense.
    The way dark elves capture slaves makes a lot more sense, I don't know why they didn't recycle that.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    Funny, I would've said that Ikit is overbuilt and should be nerfed.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
  • Rheingold#6691Rheingold#6691 Registered Users Posts: 1,560

    Rheingold said:

    I like all the new additions, they are all great including Tehenhauin. Really like Nakai as well. Can't agree that Lizards got the short end here. Problems with Nakai campaign including his vassals do need to be fixed though, which I'm confident they will.
    And no, I'd don't want to wait another couple of months for content. CA already release content slowly. Think the dlc's are getting better and better. Not perfect, but that's impossible.

    I don't dislike Tehenhauin or other new editions.

    I'm confident that CA will attempt to fix a broken system (His vassal) rather than replacing it and will leave him forever trashed because they wont waste the resources on one lord.

    If it means better content then a few more months is a small price to pay. If they don't get the time they need before release then we have to wait even longer for the content to be fixed (if it gets fixed)

    Well, I guess that’s were we differ I don’t think his system of vassals is broken, just like I don’t believe for one minute that the wood elves amber mechanic or Tehenhauin’s sacrifice mechanic is broken. They are all unique and great ways to distinguish between factions. Amber and Nakais’s vassal mechanic just need tweaks. That’s all.
    Confident that CA will do it... eventually!
  • DerpyRoxasDerpyRoxas Registered Users Posts: 3,348
    Guys someone got an epilogue text or the victory recap for both campaigns? If not we should report this bug too.
  • ColdWaterFlat#2525ColdWaterFlat#2525 Registered Users Posts: 115
    edited September 2019
    Itharus said:

    Nakai is a large step in the progress of Horde Factions, though.

    A large step backwards. The joy of a horde faction is not having to bother defending territory. Nakai has this useless vassal tagging along behind him. And I don't even get to choose what I do with a new province. Build a temple, build a temple, build a temple.

    H&B is the worst cobbled together rubbish CA have published

  • CnConradCnConrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,197

    If CA has to raise the price to give us 2 actual Lords of Wulfhart's quality then raise the price.

    If it takes another few months to get this much content out then take the extra few months (or divert more people to the DLC)

    The community might not act like it but we will genuinely wait the extra time or pay £8 or so for the DLC if it means more quality and less having to fix it 2 years from now.

    Edit: also, can I just point out that the Lizardmen had the short end of the stick for eons and CA obviously meant to rectify this by giving them 2 DLC lords in a row and yet, both times the Lizardmen have been the ones that got thrown to the wayside...

    Nope, disagree with everything you said.

    No chance I would pay $18 for just 2 characters and no new race.

    70% of the empire changes were free and available with out paying a dime.


    You sadly are uninformed and speak for noone but yourself. Don't act like you have the faintest idea what the community wants.
  • Rheingold#6691Rheingold#6691 Registered Users Posts: 1,560
    Lizards have got a lot of love recently. People may not like what CA have done, but that is a separate issue altogether. Never fond of Lizards until recently - played. Tiktakto campaign recently-per latest patch and loved it. So much so that they are becoming one of my favorites. Lookin forward to a Go Rok playthrough.
    Stating that they haven’t been looked after by CA is a bit silly. Hello Dread Saurian, hello Go Rok and Nakai...
    The issue that they need tweaks, particularly Nakais vassal faction is as said, a separate issue.
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038
    I don't really see how adding tedious victory conditions to Nakai could have improved the DLC.
  • Xenos777Xenos777 Registered Users Posts: 8,038

    Yeah Tehenhauin was definitely not as good as ikit. It's not a matter of power, it's a matter of fun.
    1. His sacrifice mechanic doesn't make sense: he always captures the same amount of sacrifices per battle
    2. Many rewards, such as followers and banners, are RNG based (yaaay! Surprise mechanics!)
    3. His way to unlock regiments of renown is worse than the one that other lords use.

    Then yes, I would add the fact that his units, the skinks, are complete trash, but I think that Tehenhauin is supposed to be the hard campaign for the Lizardmen, so it's ok if some of his units suck.

    Don't know how it is in vanilla, but in SFO mortal empires Ikit's starting position is extremely hard. You can expand reliably only in Estalia and Tilea, then unified Wood Elves, Empire and Bretonnia dedicate their life to killing you. Tehen is way easier by comparison.
  • DatHomieSilverSurfer#4822DatHomieSilverSurfer#4822 Registered Users Posts: 312
    edited September 2019
    Attercop said:

    Itharus said:

    Nakai is a large step in the progress of Horde Factions, though.

    A large step backwards. The joy of a horde faction is not having to bother defending territory. Nakai has this useless vassal tagging along behind him. And I don't even get to choose what I do with a new province. Build a temple, build a temple, build a temple.

    H&B is the worst cobbled together rubbish CA have published

    this is total bs, and you know it. The amount of diverse additions to gameplay and unique playstyles/stories for each of these characters is pretty unparalleled for a Lord Pack.

    Both Nakai and Markus play substantially differently from their main-faction counterparts, and Nakai doesn't seem any more undercooked than markus.
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414
    Lizardmen came out as a relatively complete faction, with mechanics that were fairly sensible. Sacred spawnings, limited access to Slaan, all the main tools between their full infantry roster, and most of the monsters, as well as the nonsense feral versions all over creation.

    All they were really missing, role wise, were the two hunting packs

    Skaven came out missing primary ranged units, with only one weapons team, and the one that fairs the worst against elite units. Weapons teams and Jezzails being their primary answer for elite units, because Stormvermin aren't.

    It would have been like releasing Dwarfs or Empire without any sort of gunpowder units besides cannons.

    Mechanics wise, poor Skaven got food, loyalty, and corruption. Two negative aspects, and one that cut both ways.

    The addition of the under empire mechanic, which is a knockoff of pirates, and inclusion of most of their key missing tactical options, are just redressing a huge gap between the factions initial release state.

    The workshop? Yeah, I'll give it that one, the lizards didn't get anything that cool.

    That they're not amazing compared to the work put into the Empire this time around? They're already a largely complete faction with decent mechanics. Empire is this poor dysfunctional grouping of supposed allies that can't work together for nothing. They're a mess. They need more work, it's not surprising that they got more work.

    Ideally, I'd get rid of the feral monsters nonsense, but Lizardmen aren't in need of major changes. The random quests could use some work, but random quests in general could use some work. If one faction needs a serious overhaul, and another needs minor tweaks, I want them to do the overhaul.
  • RikRiorik#9890RikRiorik#9890 Registered Users Posts: 12,087
    I don’t accept the premise that Tehenhauin’s campaign experience has nothing on Ikit’s. Personally I absolutely cannot get into Ikit. I tried playing him but I felt my draw was immidiately towards another campaign with Queek instead.

    Ikit might have the nuke and the workshop but I still prefer Queek. Ikit’s choices feel like they don’t actually matter as he is already strong, is in a strong province, has good units and the mechanic just serves to exacerbate his advantages.

    Tehenhauin’s choices serve to make semi low quality units better and since the rituals and sacrifices are limited by time and access to the relative scarcity of ritual sacrifices the actually matter more.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @RikRiorik

    Except that Tehenhauin's faction doesn't get buffs to skinks, only he does.

    why does everyone keep equating depth to difficulty?

    Would you really prefer that CA gave us more Queek campaigns than Ikits in terms of depth of mechanics? Queek has no deep or unique mechanics at all, hes just part of the vortex.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Ikit's workshop is a fun mechanic, a thematic mechanic, but it's not a "deep" mechanic. You can play Ikit's campaign perfectly well without visiting the workshop once, he's got all the tools to win the campaign regardless. The workshop is just a powerboost on top of that.

    If Clan Skryre had some sort of downside, like more expensive Stormvermin and Clanrats (they want more reward upfront because they know Ikit's using them as guinea pigs) and you needed the workshop to compensate for that or if there were certain risks when using the workshop, like every upgrade having the chance of blowing parts of your cities up then we could start talking about the workshop as a deep mechanic.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @Ephraim_Dalton

    And once again you fail to understand what I mean. why do you keep equating him having good unique mechanics to him being OP? why do you assume that just because I praise his campaign that I think its perfect or that its the best version that it can possibly be?

    Its funny how loads of people on the forums complain about large posts and yet if you dont explain every little tiny detail then the thread devolves into a catastrophe of no one understanding what anyone even means.
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