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Why cant CA make Araby....

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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 5,820Registered Users
    Boreal said:

    LolTHELol said:

    From business point of view I think new race would be more costly than few LPs.
    I really do believe the budget of game 2 is at its end. Hence why we are getting less race packs compared to game 1.

    So my expectations of game 3 just decreased drastically, and yeah I am upset but at least we got an answer from CA.

    We have had the same amount of race packs.
    I think LolTHELol is counting WoC and Norsca. Norsca, however, was made using TWW2's marketing budget, so from a financial perspective, it's part of TWW2's investment.

    Game 1 also had Bretonnia as FLC, but game 2 is looking to have a lot more in the way of lord packs.
  • theedge634theedge634 Senior Member Posts: 1,768Registered Users

    Or it's simply that Araby has been a minor footnote in WHFB since looong before the 8th edition game was cancelled and therefore CA in conjunction with GW decided that it wasn't worth investing time and money in.

    The latest major entry was Warmaster on 2002 and that was a minor game at most. 2002 might seem pretty recently but in the Warhammer development timeline it's ages ago.

    I mean this is probably the truest statement. And the one I support the most.

    The Warhammer world still has a lot work left to do with the major races before worrying about the minor ones.

    Every major races should feel somewhere around what the Lizardmen currently feel like. That's a long ways off.

    But if CA gets through all that, and the DLCs are still selling really strong, I don't see why they couldn't get Araby in.
  • misunderstoodvampiremisunderstoodvampire Posts: 717Registered Users
    Bonutz619 said:

    I’m just going to reiterate what I wrote in another thread.

    If I had to guess the reason why we’re not getting Araby, or potentially any other minor race for that matter, it would be a financial reason. Plain and simple. The race packs cost a lot more money to make then a lord pack but ultimately made about the same amount of money as a lord pack. Hence the “only lord packs remaining” for WH2 statement. No way to know this for sure but that would be my guess.

    9 times out of 10 it always comes down to money.

    Yeah I don’t buy that money was the issue. 3 kingdoms was their most sold game ever and the Warhammer dlcs are always top of the charts and I think Araby had a decent demand.
  • Red11sgbRed11sgb Posts: 158Registered Users
    LolTHELol said:

    From business point of view I think new race would be more costly than few LPs.
    I really do believe the budget of game 2 is at its end. Hence why we are getting less race packs compared to game 1.

    So my expectations of game 3 just decreased drastically, and yeah I am upset but at least we got an answer from CA.

    I agree this is the most reasonable answer. I believe they would turn a profit of they did make more race packs. It's obviously more cost effective for them to do Lord packs. They only add a few units and two lords as opposed to a entire new army and 4 lords, plus you have to factor in balancing every current race with the new race.

    However I'm super disappointed with the announcement. I'd rather have more races than a bunch of LL but that's just me not knowing anything about Warhammer before Total wars association with them.
  • gholingholin Member Posts: 1,097Registered Users
    neodeinos said:

    Can we just bloody stop with these threads ? We get it. They're not making Araby and it's a shame but just stop now, they have their reasons to not do it and making countless threads about it everyday is not going to change anything.

    If we stop talking about it, they will think there is no interest. By keeping something relevant, their "current" lack of plans can change to plans. I think we should still talk about Araby, even if it's not coming currently. Especially if we desire it. By doing so, we may make our own wishes come true. Hey, that works! djinn wishes. Hope GW and CA pull a genie and grant our wishes one day.

    They want us to talk about things we want in game, as long as we're civil with them. So stop dampering our desires for content. You probably want something in the game too. I wouldn't deny your wishes.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,224Registered Users
    This is like your mom telling you to get dressed for school, but instead you're writing an essay wondering why she's not making you breakfast.

    Like, did she even say she's not going to make breakfast?

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • gholingholin Member Posts: 1,097Registered Users

    jamreal18 said:

    ...if they can make Cylostra?

    Why Game Workshop allowed Cylostra but not pushing Araby?

    GW hands out their IP like santa hands out presents on christmas.

    There is not a shred of evidence GW has anything to do with no Araby in WHTW
    Even if GW was concerned about some of the stereotypes they presented back in early WFB editions. None of the known units are inherently offensive. It would take fairly minimal effort to clean up the overall roster and narrative for Araby.

    The problem is likely that CA has A LOT of other more pressing things to handle before then. Araby isn't completely dead anyways. It's just not coming anytime soon. It's quite possible that it eventually makes it in, towards the end of the series.

    But I think that a lot of the worry about stereotypes that Araby may present, and how they may be offensive is ridiculous. Elephants and Camel Cavalry are straight out of history. Djinn and Flying Carpets are common mythology that can be done while remaining inoffensive. The rest is just normal units. All CA would have to do is avoid any overly stereotypical voiceover lines or text, and they're good to go.
    Exactly. It's ridiculous especially when you have movies like Aladdin making billions. People aren't offended. If this is about offending people, it's because GW has an old PC mentality or have a mind only for the Empire and Bretonnia.

    I think it's more of CA wants to get the main races right, and stop with minor races altogether for now. It's a shame. Some of CA's best dlc involved eastern factions in previous total wars. This one would be amazing too. A great and very diverse and different race pack.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 699Registered Users

    jamreal18 said:

    ...if they can make Cylostra?

    Why Game Workshop allowed Cylostra but not pushing Araby?

    GW hands out their IP like santa hands out presents on christmas.

    There is not a shred of evidence GW has anything to do with no Araby in WHTW
    Even if GW was concerned about some of the stereotypes they presented back in early WFB editions. None of the known units are inherently offensive. It would take fairly minimal effort to clean up the overall roster and narrative for Araby.

    The problem is likely that CA has A LOT of other more pressing things to handle before then. Araby isn't completely dead anyways. It's just not coming anytime soon. It's quite possible that it eventually makes it in, towards the end of the series.

    But I think that a lot of the worry about stereotypes that Araby may present, and how they may be offensive is ridiculous. Elephants and Camel Cavalry are straight out of history. Djinn and Flying Carpets are common mythology that can be done while remaining inoffensive. The rest is just normal units. All CA would have to do is avoid any overly stereotypical voiceover lines or text, and they're good to go.
    It seems fine to stereotype Eastern Europeans (Kislev), Scandinavians, Ancient Egyptian, Aztec/Mayan cultures, Medieval France and England etc. etc.

    Think of how offensive Bretonnia might be to someone whose ancestors come from France or England.... sheesh. All those stereotypes.

    But apparently an Araby type faction is "too sensitive".

  • Bonutz619Bonutz619 Posts: 912Registered Users
    daelin4 said:

    This is like your mom telling you to get dressed for school, but instead you're writing an essay wondering why she's not making you breakfast.

    Like, did she even say she's not going to make breakfast?

    They actually did, yes. CA said no Arabian breakfast for the Warhammer series.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Posts: 1,663Registered Users
    gholin said:

    neodeinos said:

    Can we just bloody stop with these threads ? We get it. They're not making Araby and it's a shame but just stop now, they have their reasons to not do it and making countless threads about it everyday is not going to change anything.

    If we stop talking about it, they will think there is no interest. By keeping something relevant, their "current" lack of plans can change to plans. I think we should still talk about Araby, even if it's not coming currently. Especially if we desire it. By doing so, we may make our own wishes come true. Hey, that works! djinn wishes. Hope GW and CA pull a genie and grant our wishes one day.

    They want us to talk about things we want in game, as long as we're civil with them. So stop dampering our desires for content. You probably want something in the game too. I wouldn't deny your wishes.
    Not saying that we shouldn't talk about Araby. But there are numerous threads about the topic there is no need to make 3 new threads about it everyday, people should just open their eyes and look for the existing threads.
  • gildagriffongildagriffon Posts: 300Registered Users
    Araby just dont Fit with all other Races from my Point of view.

  • theedge634theedge634 Senior Member Posts: 1,768Registered Users
    Bonutz619 said:

    daelin4 said:

    This is like your mom telling you to get dressed for school, but instead you're writing an essay wondering why she's not making you breakfast.

    Like, did she even say she's not going to make breakfast?

    They actually did, yes. CA said no Arabian breakfast for the Warhammer series.
    No they didn't. They said that, "there are currently no plans."

    If there was no chance at all, they would have said, "Sorry guys, Araby won't be coming for the Total War Warhammer series."

    No one is saying that it's likely. But not being in the current plans, doesn't mean never. I doubt they've completely planned out the next 5 years anyway. I doubt CA knew in 2013 that they wanted to do Rise of the Republic for Rome 2 in 2018.

    Here's what I do know. If Warhammer DLC content continues to sell as well as it has, CA will continue to make it. Eventually that leads to the possibility of things like Araby.
  • ShermanSherman Member Posts: 878Registered Users

    They should do a mixed Race pack with DoW and araby, with some units in common and reskinned, and so no need of 4 lords for a single race
  • theedge634theedge634 Senior Member Posts: 1,768Registered Users

    Araby just dont Fit with all other Races from my Point of view.

    Neither does Kislev though. Kislev is old and extremely light on the fantastical elements that are found throughout the rest of the Warhammer rosters.

    Both Kislev and Araby are in a similar boat as far a implementation, or lack thereof. Both races are in need of a major "modernization" in the WFB universe. The good thing is, Araby has enough magical units and a unique enough historical basis to design an interesting and competent roster. Kislev is in a similar boat in that it can use it's bear theme to get enough interesting and special units to put together a roster.

    Neither one of them has any real potential beyond being what Bretonnia currently is. A solid roster with limited lord selection and options.
  • Bonutz619Bonutz619 Posts: 912Registered Users

    Bonutz619 said:

    daelin4 said:

    This is like your mom telling you to get dressed for school, but instead you're writing an essay wondering why she's not making you breakfast.

    Like, did she even say she's not going to make breakfast?

    They actually did, yes. CA said no Arabian breakfast for the Warhammer series.
    No they didn't. They said that, "there are currently no plans."

    If there was no chance at all, they would have said, "Sorry guys, Araby won't be coming for the Total War Warhammer series."

    No one is saying that it's likely. But not being in the current plans, doesn't mean never. I doubt they've completely planned out the next 5 years anyway. I doubt CA knew in 2013 that they wanted to do Rise of the Republic for Rome 2 in 2018.

    Here's what I do know. If Warhammer DLC content continues to sell as well as it has, CA will continue to make it. Eventually that leads to the possibility of things like Araby.
    Sure, there’s a possibility. There’s also a possibility that I can get struck by lightning on a sunny day. The chance is there, but will it happen? I very highly doubt it.

    If you actually take a step back and look at that phrase for what it is, it’s just a nice way of saying that Araby is not coming now nor ever. It’s a PR statement. Just too many hurdles to jump through to make it happen.

    1. They need GW’s approval
    2. Lack of legendary lords - CA would have to create most of them
    3. Budget
    4. Geography - Game 3’s map
    5. Concerns about political correctness - say what you want, but these are legitimate concerns that companies take seriously
    6. Warhammer License - they only have a finite amount of time with the license to my understanding.

    Either way you slice it, the odds aren’t great.
  • NeutronStarNeutronStar Posts: 105Registered Users

    Bonutz619 said:

    daelin4 said:

    This is like your mom telling you to get dressed for school, but instead you're writing an essay wondering why she's not making you breakfast.

    Like, did she even say she's not going to make breakfast?

    They actually did, yes. CA said no Arabian breakfast for the Warhammer series.
    No they didn't. They said that, "there are currently no plans."

    If there was no chance at all, they would have said, "Sorry guys, Araby won't be coming for the Total War Warhammer series."

    No one is saying that it's likely. But not being in the current plans, doesn't mean never. I doubt they've completely planned out the next 5 years anyway. I doubt CA knew in 2013 that they wanted to do Rise of the Republic for Rome 2 in 2018.

    Here's what I do know. If Warhammer DLC content continues to sell as well as it has, CA will continue to make it. Eventually that leads to the possibility of things like Araby.
    They said there are currently no plans for the entire trilogy, and that's not very encouraging.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 699Registered Users
    I read a lot of Warhammer Fantasy lore (Vampire Wars, Felix and Gortrex novels, Dwarf lore, series of books about Ulrika etc) and I played TT since 6th ed and I don't recall any reference to Araby.

    Why do people want this Araby so much?

    someone compared Araby to Kislev, but I think that is not a good comparison because Kislev features heavily in the lore. (Felix and Gortrex Novels, Ulrika novels, many army books have stories about them (6th ed VC army book features a story about a Kislev Bojar being tricked by a Lahmian vampirese pretending she is a poor victim of a monster attack)).
  • theedge634theedge634 Senior Member Posts: 1,768Registered Users
    Bonutz619 said:

    Bonutz619 said:

    daelin4 said:

    This is like your mom telling you to get dressed for school, but instead you're writing an essay wondering why she's not making you breakfast.

    Like, did she even say she's not going to make breakfast?

    They actually did, yes. CA said no Arabian breakfast for the Warhammer series.
    No they didn't. They said that, "there are currently no plans."

    If there was no chance at all, they would have said, "Sorry guys, Araby won't be coming for the Total War Warhammer series."

    No one is saying that it's likely. But not being in the current plans, doesn't mean never. I doubt they've completely planned out the next 5 years anyway. I doubt CA knew in 2013 that they wanted to do Rise of the Republic for Rome 2 in 2018.

    Here's what I do know. If Warhammer DLC content continues to sell as well as it has, CA will continue to make it. Eventually that leads to the possibility of things like Araby.
    Sure, there’s a possibility. There’s also a possibility that I can get struck by lightning on a sunny day. The chance is there, but will it happen? I very highly doubt it.

    If you actually take a step back and look at that phrase for what it is, it’s just a nice way of saying that Araby is not coming now nor ever. It’s a PR statement. Just too many hurdles to jump through to make it happen.

    1. They need GW’s approval
    2. Lack of legendary lords - CA would have to create most of them
    3. Budget
    4. Geography - Game 3’s map
    5. Concerns about political correctness - say what you want, but these are legitimate concerns that companies take seriously
    6. Warhammer License - they only have a finite amount of time with the license to my understanding.

    Either way you slice it, the odds aren’t great.
    Odds are probably a few orders of magnitude higher than getting struck by lightning. I think everyone is in agreement that it's not likely.
  • Gabs88Gabs88 Junior Member Posts: 262Registered Users
    A shame truely, but I think for the time being they should focuse on finishing and expanding upon the races that already in the game, such as the WE, Greenskins and Bestmen who need the most an overhaul and a complete roster for some
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 3,008Registered Users
    People want Araby because they want variety, enjoy that aesthetic, or want efreetie. All reasons I either share or respect.

    There can be a number of reasons for no Araby including from the start minor factions were not in the original plan and only so many were ever going to be added.

    I think the political point is complete and utter hogwash. It dealt with the older mysticism which those cultures still talk about. It's not reflective of the modern era, and Disney the current king of the PC just made a cool billion on that very theme. So like hell the political matters or that it had no appeal.

    Time, budget, and planning are my take on it.
  • ErathilErathil Posts: 553Registered Users
    A lot of the existing lore and models for Araby were... made in the 80s and 90s, leaned into Arabic stereotypes, and were a little cringy by modern standards.

    A lot of the game was like that, but other examples evolved into their own things, more grounded and more fantastical at the same time. We got a few shreds of that with Araby when Dreadfleet came out and the Golden Magus came sailing in on the Flaming Scimitar, but as a whole, Araby was left undeveloped.

    It's a shame. But, I can kind of see why. I'd still like to see it implemented some day, but it would necessitate a lot of work, and there's a balance to walk around the old stereotypes.
  • EarlybirdEarlybird Posts: 587Registered Users
    Araby was never fleshed out in Warhammer.

    Their warmaster army list was pretty boring : spearmen, archer, cavalry, elephants...

    I dont understand the hype for them seriously.
  • KelefaneKelefane Posts: 1,314Registered Users
    Ares354 said:

    I go with political reason.

    ^ This
  • AbmongAbmong Posts: 1,016Registered Users
    To quote D. Rumsfeld:
    Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.

    That's all I have to say about that.
    Total War: Warhammer IV - Cathay, Ind, Nippon, Khuresh (+ Lost Vampire Bloodlines, Monkey kingdom DLC) :#
  • theedge634theedge634 Senior Member Posts: 1,768Registered Users

    I read a lot of Warhammer Fantasy lore (Vampire Wars, Felix and Gortrex novels, Dwarf lore, series of books about Ulrika etc) and I played TT since 6th ed and I don't recall any reference to Araby.

    Why do people want this Araby so much?

    someone compared Araby to Kislev, but I think that is not a good comparison because Kislev features heavily in the lore. (Felix and Gortrex Novels, Ulrika novels, many army books have stories about them (6th ed VC army book features a story about a Kislev Bojar being tricked by a Lahmian vampirese pretending she is a poor victim of a monster attack)).

    Having more lore behind it doesn't necessarily mean that the army is anymore fleshed out. The issue with Kislev in a Total War game is the same as Araby IMO. An archaic and incomplete roster that needs a lot of updating to fit the current environment of Warhammer Fantasy.
  • BeardedragonBeardedragon Member Posts: 1,364Registered Users
    edited September 17

    Wouldn’t want to accidentally offend someone. But they don’t mind generalizing Lizard People and demon Vikings. One of my best friends is a demon Viking and he can’t stand how games workshop and CA have generalized his population over the years

    Frankly with the amount of racism directed towards muslims these days, and on the other side, how absurdly touchy and ready-to-be-offended many folks in the muslim world are, I understand that CA doesn’t want to get into the task of portraying arabs with all the most OTT stereotypes there are.

    Warhammer is all about playing and inflating stereotypes to the extreme, and that’s fine and playful, but when you have an ethnicity that is between the hammer of a gigantic wave of racism and hostility and the anvil of their own extremists, you as a business do better by avoiding the issue like the **** plague.

    I don’t think Arabia is a particularly interesting and well fleshed out part of WHFB, but I also think something is reaaaally missing in the Southland. Hope CA finds a way to make that part of the map interesting.
    exactly

    Wouldn’t want to accidentally offend someone. But they don’t mind generalizing Lizard People and demon Vikings. One of my best friends is a demon Viking and he can’t stand how games workshop and CA have generalized his population over the years

    Frankly with the amount of racism directed towards muslims these days, and on the other side, how absurdly touchy and ready-to-be-offended many folks in the muslim world are, I understand that CA doesn’t want to get into the task of portraying arabs with all the most OTT stereotypes there are.

    Warhammer is all about playing and inflating stereotypes to the extreme, and that’s fine and playful, but when you have an ethnicity that is between the hammer of a gigantic wave of racism and hostility and the anvil of their own extremists, you as a business do better by avoiding the issue like the **** plague.

    I don’t think Arabia is a particularly interesting and well fleshed out part of WHFB, but I also think something is reaaaally missing in the Southland. Hope CA finds a way to make that part of the map interesting.
    exactly
    A couple of things.

    I'm still unsure of exactly what about the Araby roster is offensive. The units are either straight out of middle-eastern history, or middle-eastern mythology. Just make sure that no overtly stereotypical voiceover lines or text arrives with Araby and I don't see any offense being taken.

    On to the second point. I think Araby and Kislev are similar in their lack of interesting-ness and being underimplemented. Every time I hear someone bash Araby for not being fleshed out, I look over at Kislev and see a roster that is just as bareboned and uninspired. I mean, it's Northeastern Europeans with a couple of bear units. That's all Kislev is. They have more lore, and a couple of living named characters, which is better for sure. But let's not act like the roster for Kislev looks all that much more interesting than Araby's. They both run low on the elements that make up the rest of Warhammer setting.

    That being said, I WANT Kislev in. I also want Araby in. Hopefully in due time they can both make it.
    Well. i never said Kislev was more fleshed out, because lets face it, its not.

    its as little fleshed out as Araby if not, honestly less.
    and lets not forget that Vampire coast isnt even an actual fleshed out race either that also worked out well.. Meaning, they could definitly do some creators freedom and put in some units that would fit for the Araby faction or Kislev.


    But Kislev fits more with warhammer 3 than 2, and while Araby did fit with warhammer 2, there are just more important factions that needed room. Like the well sold Vampire coast (everyone, no matter age and gender, wants Zombie pirates) as well as Tomb Kings.

    Araby simply wasnt that needed for warhammer 2, nor would it probably sell as well.


    Why wouldnt it sell well? its not because Araby has offensive units, necessarily at least, but its probably a political reason (mixed with the fact that it has little to no rooster + would sell less well).


    Their focus is on Muslim nations, as lies in the name, Araby (arab). As of the 21st century, many westerners are sceptical about Arab nations, and they wont necessarily like to play an arab faction. thats one side of it, then theres the other side as well.

    Many Middle easterners are touchy and go crazy over small things. So what would happen when they find out that units based on muslim stereotypes and aladdin have made it in to a strategy game? this game works on stereotypes, that includes Flying carpets and probably Djinn's, in the same way that Kislev will feature bears because they are related to russia.

    While no one cares about stereotypes of the races being portrayed in warhammer thus far, theres a slight chance that such things wont go well for arabic audiences, specially if the game is to be sold in Arabic nations. it might actually be banned. And no, the answer isnt to make less stereotypical units or voice lines. because the game is made from stereotypes as well as folklore. you cant make discrimination like that in a game, where you are allowed to stereotype russia by having bears, but not arabs by having flying carpets. There shouldnt be taken greater care for Araby than anyone else simply because they might be touchy.

    Why isnt Total war Rome 2 then banned for having arabic nations? because its not based on stereotypes, but actual historical units. more or less at least.

    And due to those points, the DLC might sell less well. If it sells less well, it gets thrown back in to the "we might release this at some point" box.

    thats how i THINK it is anyway. im not a CA employee i dont know. im just making educated guesses. If Araby gets released, i will buy the DLC like any other. but Araby isnt a DLC im looking forward to, neither is Kislev.
  • theedge634theedge634 Senior Member Posts: 1,768Registered Users

    Wouldn’t want to accidentally offend someone. But they don’t mind generalizing Lizard People and demon Vikings. One of my best friends is a demon Viking and he can’t stand how games workshop and CA have generalized his population over the years

    Frankly with the amount of racism directed towards muslims these days, and on the other side, how absurdly touchy and ready-to-be-offended many folks in the muslim world are, I understand that CA doesn’t want to get into the task of portraying arabs with all the most OTT stereotypes there are.

    Warhammer is all about playing and inflating stereotypes to the extreme, and that’s fine and playful, but when you have an ethnicity that is between the hammer of a gigantic wave of racism and hostility and the anvil of their own extremists, you as a business do better by avoiding the issue like the **** plague.

    I don’t think Arabia is a particularly interesting and well fleshed out part of WHFB, but I also think something is reaaaally missing in the Southland. Hope CA finds a way to make that part of the map interesting.
    exactly

    Wouldn’t want to accidentally offend someone. But they don’t mind generalizing Lizard People and demon Vikings. One of my best friends is a demon Viking and he can’t stand how games workshop and CA have generalized his population over the years

    Frankly with the amount of racism directed towards muslims these days, and on the other side, how absurdly touchy and ready-to-be-offended many folks in the muslim world are, I understand that CA doesn’t want to get into the task of portraying arabs with all the most OTT stereotypes there are.

    Warhammer is all about playing and inflating stereotypes to the extreme, and that’s fine and playful, but when you have an ethnicity that is between the hammer of a gigantic wave of racism and hostility and the anvil of their own extremists, you as a business do better by avoiding the issue like the **** plague.

    I don’t think Arabia is a particularly interesting and well fleshed out part of WHFB, but I also think something is reaaaally missing in the Southland. Hope CA finds a way to make that part of the map interesting.
    exactly
    A couple of things.

    I'm still unsure of exactly what about the Araby roster is offensive. The units are either straight out of middle-eastern history, or middle-eastern mythology. Just make sure that no overtly stereotypical voiceover lines or text arrives with Araby and I don't see any offense being taken.

    On to the second point. I think Araby and Kislev are similar in their lack of interesting-ness and being underimplemented. Every time I hear someone bash Araby for not being fleshed out, I look over at Kislev and see a roster that is just as bareboned and uninspired. I mean, it's Northeastern Europeans with a couple of bear units. That's all Kislev is. They have more lore, and a couple of living named characters, which is better for sure. But let's not act like the roster for Kislev looks all that much more interesting than Araby's. They both run low on the elements that make up the rest of Warhammer setting.

    That being said, I WANT Kislev in. I also want Araby in. Hopefully in due time they can both make it.
    Well. i never said Kislev was more fleshed out, because lets face it, its not.

    its as little fleshed out as Araby if not, honestly less.
    and lets not forget that Vampire coast isnt even an actual fleshed out race either that also worked out well.. Meaning, they could definitly do some creators freedom and put in some units that would fit for the Araby faction or Kislev.


    But Kislev fits more with warhammer 3 than 2, and while Araby did fit with warhammer 2, there are just more important factions that needed room. Like the well sold Vampire coast (everyone, no matter age and gender, wants Zombie pirates) as well as Tomb Kings.

    Araby simply wasnt that needed for warhammer 2, nor would it probably sell as well.


    Why wouldnt it sell well? its not because Araby has offensive units, necessarily at least, but its probably a political reason (mixed with the fact that it has little to no rooster + would sell less well).


    Their focus is on Muslim nations, as lies in the name, Araby (arab). As of the 21st century, many westerners are sceptical about Arab nations, and they wont necessarily like to play an arab faction. thats one side of it, then theres the other side as well.

    Many Middle easterners are touchy and go crazy over small things. So what would happen when they find out that units based on muslim stereotypes and aladdin have made it in to a strategy game? this game works on stereotypes, that includes Flying carpets and probably Djinn's, in the same way that Kislev will feature bears because they are related to russia.

    While no one cares about stereotypes of the races being portrayed in warhammer thus far, theres a slight chance that such things wont go well for arabic audiences, specially if the game is to be sold in Arabic nations. it might actually be banned. And no, the answer isnt to make less stereotypical units or voice lines. because the game is made from stereotypes as well as folklore. you cant make discrimination like that in a game, where you are allowed to stereotype russia by having bears, but not arabs by having flying carpets. There shouldnt be taken greater care for Araby than anyone else simply because they might be touchy.

    Why isnt Total war Rome 2 then banned for having arabic nations? because its not based on stereotypes, but actual historical units. more or less at least.

    And due to those points, the DLC might sell less well. If it sells less well, it gets thrown back in to the "we might release this at some point" box.

    thats how i THINK it is anyway. im not a CA employee i dont know. im just making educated guesses. If Araby gets released, i will buy the DLC like any other. but Araby isnt a DLC im looking forward to, neither is Kislev.
    I think the worries of.muslim crowds taking offense is overblown. I didn't here any backlash for the new Alladdin movie. We've also never seen backlash before for muslim nations in historical titles. And let's face it, historical titles work on cliches and stereotypes as much as they do actual history in this franchise.
  • BeardedragonBeardedragon Member Posts: 1,364Registered Users

    Wouldn’t want to accidentally offend someone. But they don’t mind generalizing Lizard People and demon Vikings. One of my best friends is a demon Viking and he can’t stand how games workshop and CA have generalized his population over the years

    Frankly with the amount of racism directed towards muslims these days, and on the other side, how absurdly touchy and ready-to-be-offended many folks in the muslim world are, I understand that CA doesn’t want to get into the task of portraying arabs with all the most OTT stereotypes there are.

    Warhammer is all about playing and inflating stereotypes to the extreme, and that’s fine and playful, but when you have an ethnicity that is between the hammer of a gigantic wave of racism and hostility and the anvil of their own extremists, you as a business do better by avoiding the issue like the **** plague.

    I don’t think Arabia is a particularly interesting and well fleshed out part of WHFB, but I also think something is reaaaally missing in the Southland. Hope CA finds a way to make that part of the map interesting.
    exactly

    Wouldn’t want to accidentally offend someone. But they don’t mind generalizing Lizard People and demon Vikings. One of my best friends is a demon Viking and he can’t stand how games workshop and CA have generalized his population over the years

    Frankly with the amount of racism directed towards muslims these days, and on the other side, how absurdly touchy and ready-to-be-offended many folks in the muslim world are, I understand that CA doesn’t want to get into the task of portraying arabs with all the most OTT stereotypes there are.

    Warhammer is all about playing and inflating stereotypes to the extreme, and that’s fine and playful, but when you have an ethnicity that is between the hammer of a gigantic wave of racism and hostility and the anvil of their own extremists, you as a business do better by avoiding the issue like the **** plague.

    I don’t think Arabia is a particularly interesting and well fleshed out part of WHFB, but I also think something is reaaaally missing in the Southland. Hope CA finds a way to make that part of the map interesting.
    exactly
    A couple of things.

    I'm still unsure of exactly what about the Araby roster is offensive. The units are either straight out of middle-eastern history, or middle-eastern mythology. Just make sure that no overtly stereotypical voiceover lines or text arrives with Araby and I don't see any offense being taken.

    On to the second point. I think Araby and Kislev are similar in their lack of interesting-ness and being underimplemented. Every time I hear someone bash Araby for not being fleshed out, I look over at Kislev and see a roster that is just as bareboned and uninspired. I mean, it's Northeastern Europeans with a couple of bear units. That's all Kislev is. They have more lore, and a couple of living named characters, which is better for sure. But let's not act like the roster for Kislev looks all that much more interesting than Araby's. They both run low on the elements that make up the rest of Warhammer setting.

    That being said, I WANT Kislev in. I also want Araby in. Hopefully in due time they can both make it.
    Well. i never said Kislev was more fleshed out, because lets face it, its not.

    its as little fleshed out as Araby if not, honestly less.
    and lets not forget that Vampire coast isnt even an actual fleshed out race either that also worked out well.. Meaning, they could definitly do some creators freedom and put in some units that would fit for the Araby faction or Kislev.


    But Kislev fits more with warhammer 3 than 2, and while Araby did fit with warhammer 2, there are just more important factions that needed room. Like the well sold Vampire coast (everyone, no matter age and gender, wants Zombie pirates) as well as Tomb Kings.

    Araby simply wasnt that needed for warhammer 2, nor would it probably sell as well.


    Why wouldnt it sell well? its not because Araby has offensive units, necessarily at least, but its probably a political reason (mixed with the fact that it has little to no rooster + would sell less well).


    Their focus is on Muslim nations, as lies in the name, Araby (arab). As of the 21st century, many westerners are sceptical about Arab nations, and they wont necessarily like to play an arab faction. thats one side of it, then theres the other side as well.

    Many Middle easterners are touchy and go crazy over small things. So what would happen when they find out that units based on muslim stereotypes and aladdin have made it in to a strategy game? this game works on stereotypes, that includes Flying carpets and probably Djinn's, in the same way that Kislev will feature bears because they are related to russia.

    While no one cares about stereotypes of the races being portrayed in warhammer thus far, theres a slight chance that such things wont go well for arabic audiences, specially if the game is to be sold in Arabic nations. it might actually be banned. And no, the answer isnt to make less stereotypical units or voice lines. because the game is made from stereotypes as well as folklore. you cant make discrimination like that in a game, where you are allowed to stereotype russia by having bears, but not arabs by having flying carpets. There shouldnt be taken greater care for Araby than anyone else simply because they might be touchy.

    Why isnt Total war Rome 2 then banned for having arabic nations? because its not based on stereotypes, but actual historical units. more or less at least.

    And due to those points, the DLC might sell less well. If it sells less well, it gets thrown back in to the "we might release this at some point" box.

    thats how i THINK it is anyway. im not a CA employee i dont know. im just making educated guesses. If Araby gets released, i will buy the DLC like any other. but Araby isnt a DLC im looking forward to, neither is Kislev.
    I think the worries of.muslim crowds taking offense is overblown. I didn't here any backlash for the new Alladdin movie. We've also never seen backlash before for muslim nations in historical titles. And let's face it, historical titles work on cliches and stereotypes as much as they do actual history in this franchise.
    So a game that features only horses, and humans with swords and spears, are as stereotypical as one with Flying carpets and Djinn's?

    i guess we have to agree to disagree.

    and maybe it is, but i still dont think the DLC would sell well. not as well as Tomb Kings and Pirate Coast.

    and lets not forget, it made sense to release them for warhammer 2. yet there was no room for them since they needed to release Vampire coast and Tomb kings. so now they're thrown back to warhammer 3 if they ever get released.
  • SultschiemSultschiem Posts: 1,629Registered Users
    jamreal18 said:

    ...if they can make Cylostra?

    Why Game Workshop allowed Cylostra but not pushing Araby?

    The vampire coast has a few interesting and relevant characters from the lore and from dreadfleet, only 1 of 4 characters is new, filling out an interesting role and trope.
    It also had some really cool stuff that was fanmade and official in the official magazines.

    They are also an existant threat in lustria.


    Araby on the other hand has at BEST 3 namable characters, 1 of which is dead for a long time, the other is a sorcerer of tzeentch (the golden magus) and the third is not an arabian (al muktar) and is just a mercenary leader.

    Their current LEADER is unknown, their faction as of the last update is kinda....irrelevant. Hell, as far as I know THEY WEREN`T EVEN MENTIONED IN ANY END TIMES BOOK... nobody cared. Hell, Cathay was mentioned in the end times....(Grimgor destroyed it...)

    Unlike Norsca, you don`t have forgeworld stuff from other factions you can give them or lords.


    They have some interesting units and roster potentials (elephants, camels, djinns, flying carpets etc.) but ...again, there aren`t major lore characters or fan favorite creatures you can give them.

    Norsca got: Werewolves, Fimir, Chaos Mammoths!!!, Frost Trolls, Frost Wyrms, Icewolves and they are essentially vikings with 2 major lore characters leading them.

    Vampire Coasts are FREAKING UNDEAD PIRATES with giant crabs and flying handgunners....
  • AbmongAbmong Posts: 1,016Registered Users
    There are no plans to add XXX to TW:WH series at this time = Corporate speak for: Don't hold your breath, but never say never. It could still happen after the main trilogy has been released and CA/GW still want to make money from their partnership, but we're talking maybe like they did with the later campaign packs CA release for Rome II 5yrs later. If Araby happens at all we're looking at 7-8yrs away at least...
    Total War: Warhammer IV - Cathay, Ind, Nippon, Khuresh (+ Lost Vampire Bloodlines, Monkey kingdom DLC) :#
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