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the Missing Diversity for Empire Lords and Heroes

SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,320Registered Users
The new Empire Update was an amazing step in the right direction in revitalizing the faction and bringing it more up to Game 2 standards, but as we look towards the future, there is one issue that has become too glaring to ignore.

I'm sure you're all well familiar with this by now:


This model is one of only 3 Empire General models and also the only model that exists for the Empire Captains. Even after the update, his model is still used for the Elector Counts of Talabecland, Nordland, Averland, Marianburg (which isn't even an Empire Province) and Stirland.

Whats more: the Generals and Captains of the Empire only have 1 Weapon variant: the Sword and Shield. Even now that we have the Huntsmarshal (which is a very welcome inclusion) I still feel incredibly limited playing the Empire in terms of my lord Choices (No lord for Gunpowder, Magic, Cavalry or any of that).

While looking for missing units, I came across all of these variants that exist in the Empires Heraldry Book. Their looks vary as much as their weapon types do and each region has their own theme:












(Yes I know that's Valten in one of the Pictures, but trying to find another image of an Empire Captain with long hair is nigh impossible)

I don't expect CA to Implement every single one of these, but I think this really drives home the issue with the lack of diversity, not just in terms of lord types but models and weapon variants as well.

Most Old World factions struggle with their textures and more limited models but I think the Empire is honestly the worst (I cant even bring myself to use Empire Captains at all because of that model).

What do you think of these variants? are you sick of the generic models too? and which ones do you want to see CA implement? let me know :)

Comments

  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 1,981Registered Users
    Now I really want regional Lords and heroes for the empire! Awesome!
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 7,074Registered Users
    Who can say no to more content? I don’t think it’s too problematic but I wouldn’t say no to more models obviously.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,559Registered Users
    I only really see increased Model variety (Captain) and a ranged weapon maybe (General) due to what CA has given. As if they did it for Empire Captains and Generals they'd have to do it for everyone.
    Empire Captains were also the Battle Standard Bearer for the Empire.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,320Registered Users

    I only really see increased Model variety (Captain) and a ranged weapon maybe (General) due to what CA has given. As if they did it for Empire Captains and Generals they'd have to do it for everyone.
    Empire Captains were also the Battle Standard Bearer for the Empire.

    Not every faction has as much diversity to draw from though. Many factions like the High Elves are mainly distinguished by their colours rather than what they wear or look like.

    having 3ish generic models for each lord/hero type is fine for most factions (especially the non human ones) but for the Empire and the Greenskins: their diversity is a big part of who they are and they were given alot more attention in this regard in the lore and TT.

    So no, not every faction will have to get the same level of attention and like I said in the OP: I don't expect this many different ones, but between the weapon variety, the different provinces and the different models themselves, I think there is enough justification here that we could see many of these in the future.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 1,449Registered Users
    Still waiting on equipment customisation for generic characters.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,320Registered Users
    edited September 25
    @Arthas_Menethil

    From this list alone we have:

    Ulric themed generals : which would have to come anyway, surely.

    Two handed Hammer's: these would be great weapon/armour piercing Lords/Heroes and will be coming with the Ulric factions anyway, but as we can see here: they also exist for other factions like Ostermark as well.

    The Pistols/Duelist: which could easily translate into a new ranged/hybrid general and hero (Master Engineer or some equivalent)

    The Axe and Mace: could just add some flavor and perhaps come with a free update or similar new units for their respective factions.

    Halberdier Lord/Hero : would be great for Anti-Large coverage and could be implemented the same way as the HE Noble (in other words, they don't need to be both Lords and Heroes)

    and then we just have some younger models, some fatter, some with long hair, etc which could be scattered throughout all these new lord types and variants anyway.
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Posts: 939Registered Users
    edited September 25
    The Stirland model is awesone.
    More Weapon variants like pistol and sword, twohand sword, maze or axe.

    Even changing haircolour would bring a massive immersion increase.
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Posts: 1,707Registered Users
    Absolutely, more variety in Empire Generals and Captains, and Engineer heroes (Master Engineer Lord seems replaced by Huntsmen Generals) and Knightly Grand Masters would be very much welcomes.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,320Registered Users

    Absolutely, more variety in Empire Generals and Captains, and Engineer heroes (Master Engineer Lord seems replaced by Huntsmen Generals) and Knightly Grand Masters would be very much welcomes.

    Huntsman generals haven't replaced them at all since we still need a gunpowder lord who buffs pistoliers, handgunners, outriders and artillery.

    Huntsman general is focused on only 2 things: huntsman and Archers (with minor buffs to spearmen)

    The Huntsman General is actually lacking right now IMO, all he does is +12% range to Huntsmen and Archers, Some ant Large for spears and a Little replenishment: he should get some more buffs to Huntsman and Archers and some new buffs to Attrition and campaign movement range.

    His niche is as a scout/ambush lord which is totally different from the Master engineer who is a gunpowder/turtle expert.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,559Registered Users

    I only really see increased Model variety (Captain) and a ranged weapon maybe (General) due to what CA has given. As if they did it for Empire Captains and Generals they'd have to do it for everyone.
    Empire Captains were also the Battle Standard Bearer for the Empire.

    Not every faction has as much diversity to draw from though. Many factions like the High Elves are mainly distinguished by their colours rather than what they wear or look like.

    having 3ish generic models for each lord/hero type is fine for most factions (especially the non human ones) but for the Empire and the Greenskins: their diversity is a big part of who they are and they were given alot more attention in this regard in the lore and TT.

    So no, not every faction will have to get the same level of attention and like I said in the OP: I don't expect this many different ones, but between the weapon variety, the different provinces and the different models themselves, I think there is enough justification here that we could see many of these in the future.
    Most if not all races have weapon options (even the Battle Standard for the Heroes the lack the banner) missing from their generic lords and heroes some of them even have armour variants like the Empire General and Captain who start with Light and could upgrade to Heavy or full plate. Yet the only ones CA has bothered with end up being a melee version and a ranged version.

    They aren't going to do it by province any new variant of the captain will be accessible by all Empire factions.

    Also they are not doing regional captains as they have not done it to the State Troops as shown in the Empires Heraldry Book with an example below with Reikland and Stirland. The most changes will be texture related not model related for factions.




    For the Ulric factions both Middenland (Storm of Chaos) and Cult of Ulric (White Dwarf) lack the General and Captain while keeping the Grand Master (Grand Master of the White Wolf) and replacing the captain with the hero version of Grand Master the Seneschal (Seneschal of the White Wolf) along with having a High Priest (lord) and a Priest (Hero) of Ulric.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • warhammerwarlordwarhammerwarlord Posts: 167Registered Users
    That's why you have mods..
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Posts: 1,707Registered Users

    Absolutely, more variety in Empire Generals and Captains, and Engineer heroes (Master Engineer Lord seems replaced by Huntsmen Generals) and Knightly Grand Masters would be very much welcomes.

    Huntsman generals haven't replaced them at all since we still need a gunpowder lord who buffs pistoliers, handgunners, outriders and artillery.

    Huntsman general is focused on only 2 things: huntsman and Archers (with minor buffs to spearmen)

    The Huntsman General is actually lacking right now IMO, all he does is +12% range to Huntsmen and Archers, Some ant Large for spears and a Little replenishment: he should get some more buffs to Huntsman and Archers and some new buffs to Attrition and campaign movement range.

    His niche is as a scout/ambush lord which is totally different from the Master engineer who is a gunpowder/turtle expert.
    Ah, thanks for clarifying, cheers.
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Posts: 1,212Registered Users
    Lords:
    Grand Master
    Wizard Lord

    Heroes:
    Master Engineer
    "You stumble about in darkness. There is no light here, no mercy. Naggarond has claimed the souls of better heroes than you."
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,320Registered Users
    edited September 25
    @Arthas_Menethil

    CA has done the heraldry to the extent that the different factions have their respective colours.

    There is a massive difference between adding regalia to half a dozen lords/heroes and adding fleshed out varied regalia to every unit and character in the empire...

    When I was talking about faction variants I meant like having maces for Hochland, hammers for Ostermark etc. This could come with faction specific units for them as well.

    Yes I know Ulric is basically one big subfraction. Wissenland is too. But in the grand scheme of things, they are one part in a larger project, that being: to flesh out the empire as much they can.

    This thread is particularly about these missing variants for lords/heroes that are already in the game. I'm not trying to make a mega-thread about all the things they're missing. I plan on doing that soon though.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,559Registered Users

    Arthas_Menethil

    CA has done the heraldry to the extent that the different factions have their respective colours.

    There is a massive difference between adding regalia to half a dozen lords/heroes and adding fleshed out varied regalia to every unit and character in the empire...

    When I was talking about faction variants I meant like having maces for Hochland, hammers for Ostermark etc. This could come with faction specific units for them as well.

    Yes I know Ulric is basically one big subfraction. Wissenland is too. But in the grand scheme of things, they are one part in a larger project, that being: to flesh out the empire as much they can.

    This thread is particularly about these missing variants for lords/heroes that are already in the game. I'm not trying to make a mega-thread about all the things they're missing. I plan on doing that soon though.

    And again they are not changing models based on faction the only thing they are changing faction wise are textures. They won't make variants (as in weapons changing) exclusive to factions it'll be available to the whole race especially if it's cosmetic.

    I really do not see the point of locking a weapon/armour variant of a hero/lord that the entire race already has access to to a subfaction.

    That book wasn't showing off what every captain of that province should be equipped as.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,320Registered Users
    @Arthas_Menethil

    I thought the hunter and the beast might have humbled you a bit, made you tone down all the " they will do X" " they should not do Y because of arbitrary Z"

    I've said my piece and you've not changed it.
  • IconicIconic Posts: 442Registered Users
    I'd like to see female battle wizards as it's one of the only loreful battlefield roles for women in the Empire (The other being orders of battle nuns). I'm surprised they haven't already given how many lores the Empire has.
  • kitekazekitekaze Posts: 265Registered Users
    edited September 26

    The Pistols/Duelist: which could easily translate into a new ranged/hybrid general and hero (Master Engineer or some equivalent)

    Master Engineer is hero. Gunpowder lord for Empire should be Witch Hunter General or Witch-Finder General with Brace of Pistols.

    1/They are loreful
    2/Witch Hunter w/ Brace of pistols mean short range, fast reload, armor piercing, and magical damage(silver bullet), and debuff skill (accusation). This will distinguish them from Hunter General (anti-large, long range, active skill).
    3/Along with such lord would be purging theme units (executioner, knight of the temple, warhound).
    4/LL would easily be Luthor Huss
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,320Registered Users
    edited September 26
    kitekaze said:

    The Pistols/Duelist: which could easily translate into a new ranged/hybrid general and hero (Master Engineer or some equivalent)

    Master Engineer is hero. Gunpowder lord for Empire should be Witch Hunter General or Witch-Finder General with Brace of Pistols.

    1/They are loreful
    2/Witch Hunter w/ Brace of pistols mean short range, fast reload, armor piercing, and magical damage(silver bullet), and debuff skill (accusation). This will distinguish them from Hunter General (anti-large, long range, active skill).
    3/Along with such lord would be purging theme units (executioner, knight of the temple, warhound).
    4/LL would easily be Luthor Huss
    What are you talking about? Luther Huss is an arch Lector.

    Witch Hunters are the empire equivalent of assassin's, you wouldn't see a Khanite assassin or a Banshee leading an army would you?

    Witch Hunters only link to gunpowder is their pistols. Meanwhile the master engineers are natural inventors and tacticians. Would they lead the charge in battle? Perhaps not, but they would have masterminded the charge in the same way that Wizards, Dwarf Engineers or other ranged heroes do.

    They also have an actual LL character: Jubal Falk, commander of the Nuln ironsides.

    The huntsman is relatively mid-range. Master engineers would be long range and would be more distinguished from the Huntsmarshal in all the other ways (not a scout, doesn't have stalk, buffs gunpowder, acts similar to a gunnery Wight, focused on turtling with artillery or rifle formations rather than vanguard stalk ambushes)
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Posts: 939Registered Users
    edited September 26
    Iconic said:

    I'd like to see female battle wizards as it's one of the only loreful battlefield roles for women in the Empire (The other being orders of battle nuns). I'm surprised they haven't already given how many lores the Empire has.

    Would be nice if the last missing order gets female battle wizards only. Funny time in Solland for Gelt.

    Lords/heroes with more pistols would be nice.


    Shouldn Masterengeneer buff artillery too?
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,559Registered Users
    _Mad_D0c_ said:

    Iconic said:

    I'd like to see female battle wizards as it's one of the only loreful battlefield roles for women in the Empire (The other being orders of battle nuns). I'm surprised they haven't already given how many lores the Empire has.

    Would be nice if the last missing order gets female battle wizards only. Funny time in Solland for Gelt.

    Lords/heroes with more pistols would be nice.


    Shouldn Masterengeneer buff artillery too?
    Master Engineer at least for the Empire buffs Artillery. Though CA would probably expand it to cover all ranged and artillery units.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Posts: 939Registered Users

    _Mad_D0c_ said:

    Iconic said:

    I'd like to see female battle wizards as it's one of the only loreful battlefield roles for women in the Empire (The other being orders of battle nuns). I'm surprised they haven't already given how many lores the Empire has.

    Would be nice if the last missing order gets female battle wizards only. Funny time in Solland for Gelt.

    Lords/heroes with more pistols would be nice.


    Shouldn Masterengeneer buff artillery too?
    Master Engineer at least for the Empire buffs Artillery. Though CA would probably expand it to cover all ranged and artillery units.
    All ranged gunpowder and artillery. No huntsmen, crossbow and archers.
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Posts: 939Registered Users
    edited September 26
    And variant wise, Empire and Empire clones (TEB + Kislev) are the most factions in ME. Human faces , becsuse we are humans, have naturally the most variability. A more androgyne elf with no facial hairs and a dwarf behind his big beard is well expected for us. More variants for the biggest faction especially with more head variants, hair colors and beard variants would be very welcome.

    And at least one more weapon variant for general (maze, two hand sword) and captain (pistol and sword) would be nice.

    Hammer is expected with middenland lord and is allready there for arch lector, so not such important for general and captain.
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