Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Dark Elf Campaign Players I Need Your Help!

Calling all Dark Elf Campaign Players I need you help with a project I am undertaking!
LegendofTotalWar believes that the high elves have the best economy in TWW2, I believe otherwise. I hypothesize that under the right circumstances the Druchii with their slave mechanic, certain followers(ancillaries), the right names of power, correct skill selection, and the right faction(The Blessed Dread) the Druchii are the richest race of the game.

Out of all of the variables the followers and their triggers are the hardest for me to figure out, and that's where you guys come in. I need help on figuring out the triggers for these very important followers. I understand that during ruin searches, and interactions at sea have a chance to drop any follower at very low rates, these methods will not be relied upon. For these followers I am looking for the most reliable way for theses followers to drop as i will need at least 150-250 of them each.

-Slaver
-Overseer
-High Elf Slave
-Organ Merchant
-Factor
-Evil Choirmaster

Thank you to those who help!
«1

Comments

  • NyumusNyumus Posts: 115Registered Users
    HE have the best economy on Legendary, and that is a fact. Since LoTW only plays Legendary, it's why he thinks they have the best economy (and he os not wrong). On Legendary, you Will expand way slower, and the PO is -8 from difficulty and -4 for taxes, adding slaves to that Will further decrease It, becoming a really pain in the ass tô keep PO and protect your regions, specially since you cant field too many armies ir you Will get broke Very easily.
    Also, If you need that many followers tô become better than HE, you allready Starr that they are inferior in any way, shape ir form.
  • HarGanethExecutionerHarGanethExecutioner Posts: 2Registered Users
    @Nyumus I disagree LoTW cheeses the High Elf economy with the Entrepreneur trait on all of his agents how is cheesing the dark elves followers(that give bonuses to their slave economy) inferior to cheesing the certain traits?
    As I see it the followers of the dark elves are the same as the Entrepreneur trait of the high elves, only if done right the dark elves can theoretically make more than the high elves.
  • Fear_The_WolfFear_The_Wolf Posts: 3,112Registered Users
    edited September 26
    When discussing Legend of Total War, you gotta understand his entire claim will be built using the absolute bottom of the barrel cheese tactics he can possibly manage. In his defense, if it exists in game the exploit is not his fault, but the developers. So why the hell wouldn't he use it. But he corner creeps sieges, he super blobs Vampire Counts, and in this case he max stacks high elf percentage income modifiers from their heroes. Causing the High Elves to have the undisputed maximum economy. Is it cheesy as ****? Yea. But he's not wrong.

    The Slave followers are random and limited. The mage Entrepreneur is limitless.
  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Posts: 907Registered Users
    I'm playing a Lokhir legendary campaign right now and evil choirmaster grants public order, not income. I think the best region to do this challenge is Karond Kar. The slave landmark is really powerful.

    HOWEVER, a long time will pass till you get there, whereas high elves start in Lothern from the get go. I don't think the high elves economy is beatable, because slaves have a Max cap in provinces.
  • KroetentoetenKroetentoeten Posts: 60Registered Users
    Ahh dear Fellow Forum enthusiasts… You should not have triggered me, there goes another 30 minutes of my work time :D

    TLDR:

    High elves TOTAL max endgame income, anywhere between 75 - 150k depending how much of the map you want to own.^

    Dark Elves endgame income of 1 province 225k

    Long version:


    I would like to start off that whilst Legend is a good player, certainly up there among even the “best” he is far from the epitome of being THE Warhammer player. He does sometimes get his facts wrong or play “suboptimally” as a matter of fact ordinary legendary is a walk in the park. I would love to see him play a modded and actually challenging version for once – which for some reason I have yet to see.

    Unless I am massively mistaken he is wrong about the HE economy being the strongest especially on legendary. I will explain to you why.

    Disclaimer: I am talking vortex, the same principles apply to ME, if somewhat different.
    Also, the base of this is simple math, so I daresay it’s not based on opinion but a mere fact. (unless my math is wrong)

    First lets look at the HE economy to know what we compare to. Their biggest asset is trade income. Which on legendary is hard to get since people generally don’t want to trade with you (you could se influence but that is needed for other things – like heroes!) and the ones most likely – your own race, should and will be part of your empire very soon. Complete ulthuan and a few outposts by turn 50 is the norm – and even that only because you let them build up before you confederate them. So the further the game progresses, the more you sit on unsold wares.

    The second branch is the entrepreneur trait, giving (top of my head) 30 % income of LOCAL region and 3 % taxrate. I will only do this math roughly because compared to DE economy you will see it matters not. Lothern – one of the richest regions gets a rough! Total of: 1000 (port) 300 (lothern capital) 200 (trinket maker) 240 (amphitheater). Total: 1740 base income. I guess tiranoc would be better by 200 gold by having a goldmine, so lets take that: Total 1940. Every entrepreneur mage thus gives you 1940 * 30% = 582 gold. You begin to see the big factor here is the 3 % taxrate. However as seen with lotherns example of being one of the richest regions and only netting not even 2k – you begin to see HE base tax income isn’t too high. Lets be generous and assume a 50k base income (which means you own all of ulthuan and all colonies and a huge swath of land beside) That would net you an additional 1500 gold. So in total 2k gold per entrepreneur hero. ( I am aware of lothersn 50 % income boost, but in Warhammer ALL % boosts of the same category are applied additive, hence the 50 % income boost is simply always 870 gold, whether you have 200 enterpreneurs in it or 0)

    I want to stress again how huge your empire has to be for this. A standard t3 settlement nets the high elves 200 (trinket) + 120 (promenade) + 60 (settlement) tot: 380. So the total PROVINCE of lothern is (2x 380) + 1740 = 2.5k. Meaning for 50k BASE income you would need 20 lothern like provinces. Very few actually have an additional income building of that magnitude so we are talking more like 30-40 provinces.
  • KroetentoetenKroetentoeten Posts: 60Registered Users
    edited September 26
    Now lets look at the druchi – masters of coin aka, by turn 50, what is this coin thingy and why does it keep bursting my coffers…

    In order to grasp their economic power you must understand the slave business. It has 2 factors it adds to BASE income via the slave markets and it adds to the % income modifier. How does it do that?

    Part 1 Baseincome

    Base income = #of slaves in PROVINCE multiplied with income per 100 slaves through slave buildings. Each province adds 10 / 100 and the capital 15 / 100. This results in a base of 45 income / 100 slaves. Lokhir modifies this by 50 % 45 * 1.5 = 67.5 / 100. There are 2 regions especially worth mentioning.

    The broken lands with the landmark for an additional 30 % income (again this would stack additive with lokhirs 50%) resulting in 45 * 1.8 = 81 / 100 slaves. And the mother of all slave provinces tor yvresse with the ampitheatre of yvresse giving a flat 50 / 100 slave income on top resulting in 35 (it only has 3 settlements) + 50 = 85 / 100 income or 127 / 100 for lokhir.

    These 2 are the main ones so we continue with them.
    Each settlement and its level increases the max slave number. For a 4 settlement province its 17500 for a 3 settlement province 14000.

    Now lets see the magic shall we? In those 2 settlements with lokhir max slaves grant you a BASE INCOME of:
    Broken lands: 17500 * 0.81 = 14’175
    Tor yvresse: 14000 * 1.275 = 17850
    Again, THIS. IS. BASE. INCOME.
    In comparison the rest of the base income of the region ceases to matter, lets just take it for completions sake: In yvresse its 2.6k (old port values) and in broken lands its 3k. Again, HE have a very low base income. Tot broken lands: 17’175 Yvresse: 20450
  • KroetentoetenKroetentoeten Posts: 60Registered Users
    Part2: slave income modifier

    As if 14 – 18k base income isn’t enough, slaves also provide a percentage increase. If you have max slaves in the province it starts off as + 100 %. Tech, lordskills, provincial edict, slavery buildings etc bring that up to (rough guess again) 210%, as allways, all + % slave income modifiers are addtitive. EACH lvl 10 khanite assassin adds another 15? % (I googled for 10 minutes couldn’t find the damn figure…) this is 15 % to all income, not the local region and including the wopping 18k from before. If we take the same 30 provinces like above we add 30 time 0.15 to that equaling: 450 % + 210% = total 660% additional income. Do you see where I am going here?

    Part 3 End result:

    Tor yvresse: 20450 base * 760% (100 is base) = 155’420 drop malekith in there for another 30 % + 5% from his skills + 5% from a landmark + 5% tech taxrate and you’re at 155’420 *1.45 = 225’000 from ONE PROVINCE. IF you fill up the broken lands as well you’re at an additional 130530 * 1.15 = 150’000. From 2 provinces. This is without any special followers btw who would again add to the already humongous 760% income modifier (this is also why it matters not that the black tower has 50% extra income or the always wrongly quoted morathi capital with its 100% - they are utterly insignificant in comparison to the rest of the % income modifiers)

    Part 4: Easily achievable example

    Now this is endgame (which the high elf comparison is as well, but lets check early game) It’s turn 50, you have NOTHING but broken lands for giggles. It’s turn 50 and its fully maxed out. If we take away all the khanite assasins and just plop malekith (so no extra +50%) in there as our legendary starter lord we would have an income of:
    17500 slaves * (0.45 * 1.3) + 3k other building income = 13237.5
    13237 base income * 310% * 1.45 = 60k

    It’s turn 50, you have 1 province, and 60 k income. Add a few provinces and khanite assasins and you approach 100k around that turn. Take lokhir and…

    So you see, I don’t care what the high elves do, its not even a competition. Add on top of that that without outright cheating (that’s not cheesing anymore) and reloarding the game all the time to even get offered that many entrepreneurs you will not have more than a few in the end – whilst the DE just need ANY assassin.

    I still prefer the HE because their units are just more fun and I love their hero armys. But DE are the undisputed masters of money.
  • KroetentoetenKroetentoeten Posts: 60Registered Users
    Part2: slave income modifier

    As if 14 – 18k base income isn’t enough, slaves also provide a percentage increase. If you have max slaves in the province it starts off as + 100 %. Tech, lordskills, provincial edict, slavery buildings etc bring that up to (rough guess again) 210%, as allways, all + % slave income modifiers are addtitive. EACH lvl 10 khanite assassin adds another 15? % (I googled for 10 minutes couldn’t find the damn figure…) this is 15 % to all income, not the local region and including the wopping 18k from before. If we take the same 30 provinces like above we add 30 time 0.15 to that equaling: 450 % + 210% = total 660% additional income. Do you see where I am going here?

    Part 3 End result:

    Tor yvresse: 20450 base * 760% (100 is base) = 155’420 drop malekith in there for another 30 % + 5% from his skills + 5% from a landmark + 5% tech taxrate and you’re at 155’420 *1.45 = 225’000 from ONE PROVINCE. IF you fill up the broken lands as well you’re at an additional 130530 * 1.15 = 150’000. From 2 provinces. This is without any special followers btw who would again add to the already humongous 760% income modifier (this is also why it matters not that the black tower has 50% extra income or the always wrongly quoted morathi capital with its 100% - they are utterly insignificant in comparison to the rest of the % income modifiers)
  • KroetentoetenKroetentoeten Posts: 60Registered Users
    edited September 26
    .
    Part 1 Baseincome

    Base income = #of slaves in PROVINCE multiplied with income per 100 slaves through slave buildings. Each province adds 10 / 100 and the capital 15 / 100. This results in a base of 45 income / 100 slaves. Lokhir modifies this by 50 % 45 * 1.5 = 67.5 / 100. There are 2 regions especially worth mentioning.

    The broken lands with the landmark for an additional 30 % income (again this would stack additive with lokhirs 50%) resulting in 45 * 1.8 = 81 / 100 slaves. And the mother of all slave provinces tor yvresse with the ampitheatre of yvresse giving a flat 50 / 100 slave income on top resulting in 35 (it only has 2 settlements) + 50 = 85 / 100 income or 127 / 100 for lokhir.

    These 2 are the main ones so we continue with them.
    Each settlement and its level increases the max slave number. For a 4 settlement province its 17500 for a 3 settlement province 14000.

    Now lets see the magic shall we? In those 2 settlements with lokhir max slaves grant you a BASE INCOME of:
    Broken lands: 17500 * 0.81 = 14’175
    Tor yvresse: 14000 * 1.275 = 17850
    Again, THIS. IS. BASE. INCOME.
    In comparison the rest of the base income of the region ceases to matter, lets just take it for completions sake: In yvresse its 2.6k (old port values) and in broken lands its 3k. Again, HE have a very low base income. Tot broken lands: 17’175 Yvresse: 20450
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,294Registered Users
    Elves really need a huge nerf to their income. They needed it three patches ago. Their campaigns are so atrociously boring thanks to their OP economy.
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 7,141Registered Users
    I mean it is fun to stack buffs but I just don’t understand why this kind of stuff isn’t capped on a one single, like for like, effect per province/region/army basis?
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • VoxofWarVoxofWar Member Posts: 207Registered Users

    Elves really need a huge nerf to their income. They needed it three patches ago. Their campaigns are so atrociously boring thanks to their OP economy.

    Nah, I enjoy actually do and build and recruit stuff, instead of clicking end turn until I scraped together some money
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,294Registered Users
    VoxofWar said:

    Elves really need a huge nerf to their income. They needed it three patches ago. Their campaigns are so atrociously boring thanks to their OP economy.

    Nah, I enjoy actually do and build and recruit stuff, instead of clicking end turn until I scraped together some money
    I don't. I don't enjoy games that treat me like a baby.
  • KroetentoetenKroetentoeten Posts: 60Registered Users
    Idk what this forum is doing but i've posted and reposted the other parts multiple times and they appear and disappear... lets try again.

    Part2: slave income modifier

    As if 14 – 18k base income isn’t enough, slaves also provide a percentage increase. If you have max slaves in the province it starts off as + 100 %. Tech, lordskills, provincial edict, slavery buildings etc bring that up to (rough guess again) 210%, as allways, all + % slave income modifiers are addtitive. EACH lvl 10 khanite assassin adds another 15? % (I googled for 10 minutes couldn’t find the damn figure…) this is 15 % to all income, not the local region and including the wopping 18k from before. If we take the same 30 provinces like above we add 30 time 0.15 to that equaling: 450 % + 210% = total 660% additional income. Do you see where I am going here?

    Part 3 End result:

    Tor yvresse: 20450 base * 760% (100 is base) = 155’420 drop malekith in there for another 30 % + 5% from his skills + 5% from a landmark + 5% tech taxrate and you’re at 155’420 *1.45 = 225’000 from ONE PROVINCE. IF you fill up the broken lands as well you’re at an additional 130530 * 1.15 = 150’000. From 2 provinces. This is without any special followers btw who would again add to the already humongous 760% income modifier (this is also why it matters not that the black tower has 50% extra income or the always wrongly quoted morathi capital with its 100% - they are utterly insignificant in comparison to the rest of the % income modifiers)
  • KroetentoetenKroetentoeten Posts: 60Registered Users
    Part 4: Easily achievable example

    Now this is endgame (which the high elf comparison is as well, but lets check early game) It’s turn 50, you have NOTHING but broken lands for giggles. It’s turn 50 and its fully maxed out. If we take away all the khanite assasins and just plop malekith (so no extra +50%) in there as our legendary starter lord we would have an income of:
    17500 slaves * (0.45 * 1.3) + 3k other building income = 13237.5
    13237 base income * 310% * 1.45 = 60k

    It’s turn 50, you have 1 province, and 60 k income. Add a few provinces and khanite assasins and you approach 100k around that turn. Take lokhir and…

    So you see, I don’t care what the high elves do, its not even a competition. Add on top of that that without outright cheating (that’s not cheesing anymore) and reloarding the game all the time to even get offered that many entrepreneurs you will not have more than a few in the end – whilst the DE just need ANY assassin.
  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Posts: 907Registered Users
    So, let me get this straight:

    Game says that slaves boost the regular tax income. How do they do that? What are the numbers? How much additional tax income will a province that has reached the 100% slave capacity give me?

    On top of the tax boost, slave pens give a flat 10-15 gold for every 100 slaves.

    Then of course there are special landmarks, Lokhir traits, followers and khanite assassins.

    Question is: why is it better to concentrate all slaves in a single province then? I'm not talking about specific provinces with landmarks, I'm talking in general. If I have 2 equally rich and sized provinces, I've noticed that I get more money when I concentrate slaves in one of them instead of spreading them equally between the two.

    Another thing: what commandment is better? The +10% slave income or the +5% tax boost?

    I'm asking to @Kroetentoeten in particular, since he seems to know this stuff inside out :)
  • KroetentoetenKroetentoeten Posts: 60Registered Users

    So, let me get this straight:

    Game says that slaves boost the regular tax income. How do they do that? What are the numbers? How much additional tax income will a province that has reached the 100% slave capacity give me?

    On top of the tax boost, slave pens give a flat 10-15 gold for every 100 slaves.

    Then of course there are special landmarks, Lokhir traits, followers and khanite assassins.

    Question is: why is it better to concentrate all slaves in a single province then? I'm not talking about specific provinces with landmarks, I'm talking in general. If I have 2 equally rich and sized provinces, I've noticed that I get more money when I concentrate slaves in one of them instead of spreading them equally between the two.

    Another thing: what commandment is better? The +10% slave income or the +5% tax boost?

    I'm asking to @Kroetentoeten in particular, since he seems to know this stuff inside out :)

    But its all explained in the 4 points, no?

    I could write it again but it would just be the same. The bonuses amplify each other and the 2 landmark provinces are a LOT better then the oters, hence concentrating is always better.

    The formula for % income increase (whenever something talks about % slave income (exception beeing lokhirs % slave PEN INCOME) ) is

    baseincome * ( actual slaves / max slaves + all % slave income modifiers). Again, its in the post above.

    The difference is exactly why 19 / 20 players perceive the slave income as so / so, yet those who know how to correctly use it loose all interest in a DE campaign.
  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Posts: 907Registered Users
    Yeah, your points explain everything very well, however they only mention slave income that comes from slave pens. They don't explain how slaves affect the normal tax income, the one that comes from gold mines, artisans etc. I want to know how slaves affect the base taxes.

    If it's too long to write here, feel free to tell me where you took all this info from and I'll do my own research.
  • KroetentoetenKroetentoeten Posts: 60Registered Users
    I think you've skipped over P 2-4

    Unfortunately it took me 5 attempts to post this. IDK what forum rules there are but they messed it up.

    I see them if I scroll up, dont you? P2 is the one that interests you.

    Part2: slave income modifier

    As if 14 – 18k base income isn’t enough, slaves also provide a percentage increase. If you have max slaves in the province it starts off as + 100 %. Tech, lordskills, provincial edict, slavery buildings etc bring that up to (rough guess again) 210%, as allways, all + % slave income modifiers are addtitive. EACH lvl 10 khanite assassin adds another 15? % (I googled for 10 minutes couldn’t find the damn figure…) this is 15 % to all income, not the local region and including the wopping 18k from before. If we take the same 30 provinces like above we add 30 time 0.15 to that equaling: 450 % + 210% = total 660% additional income. Do you see where I am going here?

    Part 3 End result:

    Tor yvresse: 20450 base * 760% (100 is base) = 155’420 drop malekith in there for another 30 % + 5% from his skills + 5% from a landmark + 5% tech taxrate and you’re at 155’420 *1.45 = 225’000 from ONE PROVINCE. IF you fill up the broken lands as well you’re at an additional 130530 * 1.15 = 150’000. From 2 provinces. This is without any special followers btw who would again add to the already humongous 760% income modifier (this is also why it matters not that the black tower has 50% extra income or the always wrongly quoted morathi capital with its 100% - they are utterly insignificant in comparison to the rest of the % income modifiers)
  • Overlord87Overlord87 Posts: 827Registered Users
    I watched that stream from Legend and he had, if I remember correctly, 400k income from Lothern alone. About 1800k in total, and that's net income (his armies had around 200k upkeep). He explained how he did that, but frankly, it was rather boring and I don't think I ever got over 20-30k net per turn (I usually stop around the point I have 25% of the map though).
  • KroetentoetenKroetentoeten Posts: 60Registered Users

    I watched that stream from Legend and he had, if I remember correctly, 400k income from Lothern alone. About 1800k in total, and that's net income (his armies had around 200k upkeep). He explained how he did that, but frankly, it was rather boring and I don't think I ever got over 20-30k net per turn (I usually stop around the point I have 25% of the map though).

    If that is true, which i believe you have no reason to lie :) then the only explanation is, that the enterpreneur 30% local income buff stacks multiplitcatively. Since lothern as stated above has a base income of about 2, 3k with the 50% capital buff that would mean approx.

    1.3^X *3k = 400k

    Which would mean 19 enterpreneurs in Lothern - which is indeed doable.

    Oh wow... but thats just a whole other level of dumb. The dark elves slaves are just hopelessly overtuned but work within the system as intended. Effects appliying multiplicative instead of additive is simply an oversight and you might as well just play with an infinity money mod.

    I stand corrected though.

    POI: This is only valuable super late game since the stacking only takes off exponentially arround 14 enterpreneus (with 10 for example you *only" make 41k in lothern. As well as the aforementioned save scamming. Enterpreneurs simply do not get offered that regularly.

    So summed up: Yes HE can bug abuse (in my opinion) to higher income then DE. But they can only do so super late game by save scumming - or even more late game by doing it proper legendary. And in all practical reasoning the DE can get 60k+ income from one province as early as turn 50 with a steep growth from there.
  • BereaverBereaver Posts: 444Registered Users

    I watched that stream from Legend and he had, if I remember correctly, 400k income from Lothern alone. About 1800k in total, and that's net income (his armies had around 200k upkeep). He explained how he did that, but frankly, it was rather boring and I don't think I ever got over 20-30k net per turn (I usually stop around the point I have 25% of the map though).

    He got this income after getting 100 Mages and many Handmaidenes with Enterpreneur trait. And Nobles with another money trait. To be able to even recruit 100 mages you need to conquer most of the map so Legend's top1 is not valid for the most of campaign.

    Sure, EVENTUALLY, if High Elves' player stacks money heroes as insane, HE get best economy. But Dark Elves' economy reaches its' potential much faster and is useful during the actual campaign.

    I do not really think that HE' economy needs a nerf, but I think that +% income traits make any other Influence trait undesirable in comparison.
    If there is always a better choice, why why would I choose a lesser one?

    I would prefer income traits removed from heroes and may be made into skills (like ones Nobles already have).
  • KroetentoetenKroetentoeten Posts: 60Registered Users
    Bereaver said:

    I watched that stream from Legend and he had, if I remember correctly, 400k income from Lothern alone. About 1800k in total, and that's net income (his armies had around 200k upkeep). He explained how he did that, but frankly, it was rather boring and I don't think I ever got over 20-30k net per turn (I usually stop around the point I have 25% of the map though).

    He got this income after getting 100 Mages and many Handmaidenes with Enterpreneur trait. And Nobles with another money trait. To be able to even recruit 100 mages you need to conquer most of the map so Legend's top1 is not valid for the most of campaign.

    Sure, EVENTUALLY, if High Elves' player stacks money heroes as insane, HE get best economy. But Dark Elves' economy reaches its' potential much faster and is useful during the actual campaign.

    I do not really think that HE' economy needs a nerf, but I think that +% income traits make any other Influence trait undesirable in comparison.
    If there is always a better choice, why why would I choose a lesser one?

    I would prefer income traits removed from heroes and may be made into skills (like ones Nobles already have).
    Yeah, that confirms my aforementioned theory on how it's done. If he stacked them all in one place instead of distributing them you get away with a lot less.

    20 stacked would already net you 570'000k, 30 stacked would net you 8 million. Hence the obvious fact that this is a bug. And not just an overtuned feature.

    All the same, even if you could buy every enterpreneur mage offered to you (lets ignore they cost 40 influence a pop too...) i would take you way over 100 turns to get 20 of them. But yeah. thats essentialy realy just bug abusing.
  • Overlord87Overlord87 Posts: 827Registered Users
    Bereaver said:

    I watched that stream from Legend and he had, if I remember correctly, 400k income from Lothern alone. About 1800k in total, and that's net income (his armies had around 200k upkeep). He explained how he did that, but frankly, it was rather boring and I don't think I ever got over 20-30k net per turn (I usually stop around the point I have 25% of the map though).

    He got this income after getting 100 Mages and many Handmaidenes with Enterpreneur trait. And Nobles with another money trait. To be able to even recruit 100 mages you need to conquer most of the map so Legend's top1 is not valid for the most of campaign.

    Sure, EVENTUALLY, if High Elves' player stacks money heroes as insane, HE get best economy. But Dark Elves' economy reaches its' potential much faster and is useful during the actual campaign.

    I do not really think that HE' economy needs a nerf, but I think that +% income traits make any other Influence trait undesirable in comparison.
    If there is always a better choice, why why would I choose a lesser one?

    I would prefer income traits removed from heroes and may be made into skills (like ones Nobles already have).
    I agree with you. I find Legend's streams funny so from time to time I tune in, but there's a level of ridicule to pushing the limits of the game and cheesing like he does, so I would never play like him.

    But since we're talking in this thread, op is aiming to make 1.8m per turn. So he'll have to exploit the game as well.
  • KroetentoetenKroetentoeten Posts: 60Registered Users

    Bereaver said:

    I watched that stream from Legend and he had, if I remember correctly, 400k income from Lothern alone. About 1800k in total, and that's net income (his armies had around 200k upkeep). He explained how he did that, but frankly, it was rather boring and I don't think I ever got over 20-30k net per turn (I usually stop around the point I have 25% of the map though).

    He got this income after getting 100 Mages and many Handmaidenes with Enterpreneur trait. And Nobles with another money trait. To be able to even recruit 100 mages you need to conquer most of the map so Legend's top1 is not valid for the most of campaign.

    Sure, EVENTUALLY, if High Elves' player stacks money heroes as insane, HE get best economy. But Dark Elves' economy reaches its' potential much faster and is useful during the actual campaign.

    I do not really think that HE' economy needs a nerf, but I think that +% income traits make any other Influence trait undesirable in comparison.
    If there is always a better choice, why why would I choose a lesser one?

    I would prefer income traits removed from heroes and may be made into skills (like ones Nobles already have).
    I agree with you. I find Legend's streams funny so from time to time I tune in, but there's a level of ridicule to pushing the limits of the game and cheesing like he does, so I would never play like him.

    But since we're talking in this thread, op is aiming to make 1.8m per turn. So he'll have to exploit the game as well.
    Might even manage that as darkelves without cheesing :)

    So we have 400k from the 2 most wealthy provinces. But each completely random 4 city province with zero assasins would still give about 40k and a 3 city province 30k. But yeah, his empire would have to be massive and a lot of battles to get and keep all those slaves...
  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Posts: 907Registered Users
    I believe that Legend explained that the entrepreneur trait works eeponencially. So if you have a base income of 100, the first mage gives +30%, hence 130. The second gives +30% ON TOP of the 130, which means that you get roughly 169 and son on.

    Yeah, really powerful.
  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Posts: 828Registered Users

    Elves really need a huge nerf to their income. They needed it three patches ago. Their campaigns are so atrociously boring thanks to their OP economy.

    Yeah, if the player can cheese the system by doing something very specific then all aspects of the econ need to be nerfed, because we can't have a game where it is even possible for players to cheese, right?

    Never mind that it takes a fair bit of effort to get to that point and that almost all players don't do it since they don't know and couldn't be bothered even if they did. It's not how players actually play that bothers you, it's that other people can have fun with a game you despise, isn't it?
  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Posts: 828Registered Users

    I believe that Legend explained that the entrepreneur trait works eeponencially. So if you have a base income of 100, the first mage gives +30%, hence 130. The second gives +30% ON TOP of the 130, which means that you get roughly 169 and son on.

    Yeah, really powerful.

    I am pretty sure that's not how the +building income bonus works. Rather, the nice aspect of entrepreneur stacking is that the adjusted base income from all the entrepreneurs is then subjected to their commulative tax buff.

    Thus if you have ten of them for a +300% bonus to building income, that entire buff is then subjected afterwards to their combined tax bonus. Which adds up to a fair bit under the right circumstances, it has to be said, but it isn't exponential.

    What gets really crazy is increased global tax rate in combination with a good number of built up provinces. And of course, if you have painted the map then your base income is going to be nuts, and adding +300% tax rate from 100 entrepreneurs is then going to give 4x nuts. Which is what he showed in that video, IIRC.

    It's a nice stunt but in my experience it isn't really as dirty as some of the purists around here would have you believe. And it doesn't do a whole lot early game, where you won't have much of a tax base to work with nor the agent capacity to really do anything.

  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Posts: 828Registered Users
    Regarding the general purpose of this topic, I guess I don't necessarily disagree with the OP. I have a prepatch save game with Iron Mountains (Naggarond) making 50k on its own. Sure, a bunch of disclaimers on that, including this being a "clown about" game on normal since I had not done a whole lot of DE before, but then I also wasn't really piling it on too much either.

    It's basically just a tier 5 Naggarond with 85% slaves and 13 assassins for boost, combined with a 15% tax rate and maxed tech tree.

    I guess I'll have to try out that boat bloke and then have a go at maxing him out. Just have to hope I can get to Malakith early enough that he doesn't invest in the wrong skill path. +35% tax in local province is bound to get out of hand when said province has maxed slaves and a few stacks worth of assassins.

    But how do you keep that slave number up over time?
  • DaGangsterDaGangster Junior Member Posts: 934Registered Users
    This is the complete opposite of how I play this game lol.

    Team Vampire Counts

    "Many players cannot help approaching a game as an optimization puzzle. What gives the most reward for the least risk? What strategy provides the highest chance – or even a guaranteed chance – of success? Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."

    - Soren Johnson
Sign In or Register to comment.