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I watched that stream from Legend and he had, if I remember correctly, 400k income from Lothern alone. About 1800k in total, and that's net income (his armies had around 200k upkeep). He explained how he did that, but frankly, it was rather boring and I don't think I ever got over 20-30k net per turn (I usually stop around the point I have 25% of the map though).
If that is true, which i believe you have no reason to lie then the only explanation is, that the enterpreneur 30% local income buff stacks multiplitcatively. Since lothern as stated above has a base income of about 2, 3k with the 50% capital buff that would mean approx.
1.3^X *3k = 400k
Which would mean 19 enterpreneurs in Lothern - which is indeed doable.
Oh wow... but thats just a whole other level of dumb. The dark elves slaves are just hopelessly overtuned but work within the system as intended. Effects appliying multiplicative instead of additive is simply an oversight and you might as well just play with an infinity money mod.
I stand corrected though.
POI: This is only valuable super late game since the stacking only takes off exponentially arround 14 enterpreneus (with 10 for example you *only" make 41k in lothern. As well as the aforementioned save scamming. Enterpreneurs simply do not get offered that regularly.
So summed up: Yes HE can bug abuse (in my opinion) to higher income then DE. But they can only do so super late game by save scumming - or even more late game by doing it proper legendary. And in all practical reasoning the DE can get 60k+ income from one province as early as turn 50 with a steep growth from there.
I checked an old save and I am pretty sure entrepeneurs are not multiplicative, but their building bonus is for local province, not local region.
With 100 entrepeneurs, you get 100 * 30% additional income from buildings in local province. That adds up to 30x base income for the province in question.
If we're talking about Eataine (Lothern) then that's 480 for the settlement buildings, +1400 for both ports, 800 for the industry, and 600 for the entertainment. Add misc bonuses to ports, entertainment, and industry and call it ~4000 base to give us a round number to work with.
Times 30 for 100 entrepeneurs takes this to ~120k. And then comes the tax boost, 100 entrepeneurs means +300% tax rate, so actual income is now 480k from just Eataine.
And it gets just a little bit better with Avelorn because Alarielle has additional faction econ bonuses when everybody is happy and she has much easier access to handmaidens, which means an even greater number of entrepeneur candidates per turn.
But the real reason LOTW was making 1.8 mil per turn or thereabouts, I reckon, is because his +300% tax rate (so 400% taxation overall) becomes absolutely insane when you own every econ building everywhere. That's how many regions at 4x output? It isn't exponential, though, just a crazy amount of staciking additive bonuses that works off other additive bonuses.
Thanks for clearing up that it's not multiplicative. That is a relief...
Well if he has 100 enterpreneurs then... but thats just pure fiction. I stated above that getting 30 enterpreneurs within a timeframe of 100 turns requires cheating, for 100 enterpreneurs (you get one MAX every 5 turns - unless you start buying out the ones you dont want so new ones respawn faster - but i would like to see the influence income needed for that... With alarielle ofc you also have the handmaiden pool to draw from but still... it would take ages without save scamming.
I restate my case then. In all matters of "normal" gameplay up until you own 70% of the map and are on turn 300+. The Darkelves rain supreme. It's very realistic that you have an income of 100k by turn 50-60 and 200k by turn 100-110.
10 turns into a Lothern campaign, just finished off the DE starter enemy and I can already make two fullstacks WITHOUT EVEN A SINGLE NOBLE! Just by trading with everyone who wants to trade.
10 turns into a Lothern campaign, just finished off the DE starter enemy and I can already make two fullstacks WITHOUT EVEN A SINGLE NOBLE! Just by trading with everyone who wants to trade.
HE economy is broken. Nerfs please!
Well, you can not do so with Avelorn, Order of Loremasters or Nagarythe. It is not HE economy that is broken, it's just Lothern being the best city in the game, just like it should be. Other factions can also benefit from it if they take it from High Elves.
The most ridiculous province in the game is Tor Elasor - three elven colonies provide INSANE income. I remember that it was best income province during my Queek playthrough even while it was "uninhabitable" climate.
Elven unique cities and colonies should be the richest resource in the game, it is fine to have some spots in the campaign map everyone wants to take.
10 turns into a Lothern campaign, just finished off the DE starter enemy and I can already make two fullstacks WITHOUT EVEN A SINGLE NOBLE! Just by trading with everyone who wants to trade.
HE economy is broken. Nerfs please!
Well, you can not do so with Avelorn, Order of Loremasters or Nagarythe. It is not HE economy that is broken, it's just Lothern being the best city in the game, just like it should be. Other factions can also benefit from it if they take it from High Elves.
The most ridiculous province in the game is Tor Elasor - three elven colonies provide INSANE income. I remember that it was best income province during my Queek playthrough even while it was "uninhabitable" climate.
Elven unique cities and colonies should be the richest resource in the game, it is fine to have some spots in the campaign map everyone wants to take.
You can do that as Avelorn too once you've expelled your starter enemy and have your reputation go up. Teclis and Alith are less lucky, but for the latter you only need to uncover Ulthuan and get the same deluge of money and it isn't far away.
It's HE's ridiculous trade income that needs a nerf, that would mostly affect the Ulthuan factions and leave the other two alone. As long as wealth alone controls military prowess, it needs to be nerfed.
Tor Elassor is way too rich. They can spam doomstacks by turn 20 even on H.
Lol no, it makes sense for Lothern and elven cities in general to be the richest in the lore. Dwarves should be as rich as them too. So, no, they don't really need a nerf. Tyrion is also the easiest campaign in the game, so you can't base your decisions about difficulty on him.
Elves really need a huge nerf to their income. They needed it three patches ago. Their campaigns are so atrociously boring thanks to their OP economy.
Having an option of running broken economy is sweet though. AI doesn't achieve that and you don't have to use those tactics either. Nerfing this is just one of those ways of taking away options from the player.
Elves really need a huge nerf to their income. They needed it three patches ago. Their campaigns are so atrociously boring thanks to their OP economy.
Having an option of running broken economy is sweet though. AI doesn't achieve that and you don't have to use those tactics either. Nerfing this is just one of those ways of taking away options from the player.
No, it's not sweet, it means doing anyhting else is deliberately handicapping yourself and any challenge doesn't come from the game, but yourself and so any victory and achievement is meaningless.
Elves really need a huge nerf to their income. They needed it three patches ago. Their campaigns are so atrociously boring thanks to their OP economy.
Having an option of running broken economy is sweet though. AI doesn't achieve that and you don't have to use those tactics either. Nerfing this is just one of those ways of taking away options from the player.
No, it's not sweet, it means doing anyhting else is deliberately handicapping yourself and any challenge doesn't come from the game, but yourself and so any victory and achievement is meaningless.
When are people going to get this?
You still corner camp in every battle, then? Because otherwise you're deliberately handicapping yourself, aren't you?
Thanks for clearing up that it's not multiplicative. That is a relief...
Well if he has 100 enterpreneurs then... but thats just pure fiction. I stated above that getting 30 enterpreneurs within a timeframe of 100 turns requires cheating, for 100 enterpreneurs (you get one MAX every 5 turns - unless you start buying out the ones you dont want so new ones respawn faster - but i would like to see the influence income needed for that... With alarielle ofc you also have the handmaiden pool to draw from but still... it would take ages without save scamming.
I restate my case then. In all matters of "normal" gameplay up until you own 70% of the map and are on turn 300+. The Darkelves rain supreme. It's very realistic that you have an income of 100k by turn 50-60 and 200k by turn 100-110.
To be clear it is multiplicative.
Entrepreneurs add 30% to the local province, this is additive so 10 entrepreneurs adds 300%. As this is a trait available on Mages and HE have so many lores available and a limited trait pool you are practically guaranteed to have a Mage with this trait every turn or two if you recruit a mage from each lore at the 40 influence level every turn. That's 240 influence a turn or 40 Nobles worth. Something that is absolutely achievable fairly quickly once you start painting the map.
Then they also provide 3% tax rate, this is where it becomes multiplicative 1 Mage gives 130x1.03 which is 133.9% income in a single province with no other modifiers, a 33.9% increase, 10 mages provide 400x1.3 which is 520% or 42% per Mage, 100 mages then gives 3,100x4, 12,400% or 123% per Mage.
It's also possible as High Elves to increase your tax rate with a commandment in each province, Tribute to the Phoenix King increases tax rate by 3% and trade income by 4%, to make this easy I'm going to ignore the trade income.
Assuming that every province provides a single Mage to make the calculations easier you can double the mages tax income to 6%.
Nothing is bugged or doesn't work as intended the game devs just didn't expect people to get that many entrepreneurs, and once they do the campaign is over anyway.
But using just Lothern the base income is 1000 for the main port, 270 for the capital buildings, 800 for fairgrounds, 360 for promenades, 240 for the amphitheatre and 400 for the harbour, a total of 3070. With 10 mages/handmaidens which is absolutely achievable by turn 50-60 on lower difficulties you can have an income of just short of 20k. From that single province before Trade. Your trade income will also be at +40% then multiplied by 1.6.
Both factions are capable of stupidly good economy but it requires more work as the DE for similar gains early to mid game, and the HE's are capable of much higher late game as DE run out of people to enslave and their mages get more and more valuable.
Comments
With 100 entrepeneurs, you get 100 * 30% additional income from buildings in local province. That adds up to 30x base income for the province in question.
If we're talking about Eataine (Lothern) then that's 480 for the settlement buildings, +1400 for both ports, 800 for the industry, and 600 for the entertainment. Add misc bonuses to ports, entertainment, and industry and call it ~4000 base to give us a round number to work with.
Times 30 for 100 entrepeneurs takes this to ~120k. And then comes the tax boost, 100 entrepeneurs means +300% tax rate, so actual income is now 480k from just Eataine.
And it gets just a little bit better with Avelorn because Alarielle has additional faction econ bonuses when everybody is happy and she has much easier access to handmaidens, which means an even greater number of entrepeneur candidates per turn.
But the real reason LOTW was making 1.8 mil per turn or thereabouts, I reckon, is because his +300% tax rate (so 400% taxation overall) becomes absolutely insane when you own every econ building everywhere. That's how many regions at 4x output? It isn't exponential, though, just a crazy amount of staciking additive bonuses that works off other additive bonuses.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeWell if he has 100 enterpreneurs then... but thats just pure fiction. I stated above that getting 30 enterpreneurs within a timeframe of 100 turns requires cheating, for 100 enterpreneurs (you get one MAX every 5 turns - unless you start buying out the ones you dont want so new ones respawn faster - but i would like to see the influence income needed for that...
With alarielle ofc you also have the handmaiden pool to draw from but still... it would take ages without save scamming.
I restate my case then. In all matters of "normal" gameplay up until you own 70% of the map and are on turn 300+. The Darkelves rain supreme. It's very realistic that you have an income of 100k by turn 50-60 and 200k by turn 100-110.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeHE economy is broken. Nerfs please!
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeThe most ridiculous province in the game is Tor Elasor - three elven colonies provide INSANE income. I remember that it was best income province during my Queek playthrough even while it was "uninhabitable" climate.
Elven unique cities and colonies should be the richest resource in the game, it is fine to have some spots in the campaign map everyone wants to take.
- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeIt's HE's ridiculous trade income that needs a nerf, that would mostly affect the Ulthuan factions and leave the other two alone. As long as wealth alone controls military prowess, it needs to be nerfed.
Tor Elassor is way too rich. They can spam doomstacks by turn 20 even on H.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeWhen are people going to get this?
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeEntrepreneurs add 30% to the local province, this is additive so 10 entrepreneurs adds 300%.
As this is a trait available on Mages and HE have so many lores available and a limited trait pool you are practically guaranteed to have a Mage with this trait every turn or two if you recruit a mage from each lore at the 40 influence level every turn. That's 240 influence a turn or 40 Nobles worth. Something that is absolutely achievable fairly quickly once you start painting the map.
Then they also provide 3% tax rate, this is where it becomes multiplicative 1 Mage gives 130x1.03 which is 133.9% income in a single province with no other modifiers, a 33.9% increase, 10 mages provide 400x1.3 which is 520% or 42% per Mage, 100 mages then gives 3,100x4, 12,400% or 123% per Mage.
It's also possible as High Elves to increase your tax rate with a commandment in each province, Tribute to the Phoenix King increases tax rate by 3% and trade income by 4%, to make this easy I'm going to ignore the trade income.
Assuming that every province provides a single Mage to make the calculations easier you can double the mages tax income to 6%.
Nothing is bugged or doesn't work as intended the game devs just didn't expect people to get that many entrepreneurs, and once they do the campaign is over anyway.
But using just Lothern the base income is 1000 for the main port, 270 for the capital buildings, 800 for fairgrounds, 360 for promenades, 240 for the amphitheatre and 400 for the harbour, a total of 3070.
With 10 mages/handmaidens which is absolutely achievable by turn 50-60 on lower difficulties you can have an income of just short of 20k. From that single province before Trade.
Your trade income will also be at +40% then multiplied by 1.6.
Both factions are capable of stupidly good economy but it requires more work as the DE for similar gains early to mid game, and the HE's are capable of much higher late game as DE run out of people to enslave and their mages get more and more valuable.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree