Beastmen Daemon Princes?

BrightestLight

Title. Is this a thing, should it be a thing?

TheShiroOfDalton

It's not a thing because Beastmen are not high in the god's esteem, no matter what they do, just because they can't help but be chaos-aligned. For humans, elves and so on it's a choice, which is why the gods greatly favor them and offer them godhood.

In AoS the Beastmen emancipated themselves from the gods. They still serve Chaos, but they consider the gods to be lesser aspects of Chaos because they only ever represent limited parts of it and are "too orderly" in their pursuits. Which is why they can now take marks again since their worship is now not a certainty. They still can't become Daemon Princes though and I'm sure most BM wouldn't want to anyway since Daemon Princes are basically part of a Chaos god's gestalt entity and don't have true free will anymore.

TotalBorehammer#4533

BrightestLight said:

Title. Is this a thing, should it be a thing?

If you google "warhammer beastmen daemon prince" how many hits do you get? That would save you making this thread.

Mr_Finley7#4571

What a bummer. GW just loved hitting them with the **** stick. No more marks! No chance at ascension! Enjoy your role as cannon fodder for that Mary Sue Archaon

Goatforce#6625

TotalBorehammer said:

BrightestLight said:

Title. Is this a thing, should it be a thing?

If you google "warhammer beastmen daemon prince" how many hits do you get? That would save you making this thread.

Considering more obscure parts of the lore can be pretty difficult to find on google that is pretty silly thing to say. This thread is fine, some people on here might know obscure or older lore where this might have happened.

CaesarSahlertz

Beastmen havn't been able to become Daemon Princes since the 6th edition of Warhammer. Back in the 6th edition the Beastmen were still considered equal followers of the Chaos gods.

Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

TotalBorehammer said:

BrightestLight said:

Title. Is this a thing, should it be a thing?

If you google "warhammer beastmen daemon prince" how many hits do you get? That would save you making this thread.

Quite a few actually.

Besides this could easily be a lore not TT deal. The thread is perfectly fine.

Wyvax#7456

Theoretically it should be possible, if you had a beastlord that was blessed to be particularly intelligent similar to Throgg and they were particularly fervent and efficient in their means to spread chaos. But it's very, very unlikely because the Beastmen simply aren't interesting enough unlike humans. They're in a similar boat as the fimir.

Lamentations

Except the fimir sank with the old world, poor poor old world...

Asamu#6386

I don't think it fits very well. Besides, if Doombulls are added in with Taurox at some point (a fairly likely possibility during game 3), they'd be sort of redundant. Doombulls are as big as a Daemon prince and about as strong in melee.

Steppelord

If you want to get the most out of chaos, the best thing to be born as would be a dragon ogre. You get immortality by fighting (which is in your nature anyway), but aren't directly bound to a God's will.

SaurianDruid#4682

Theoretically it is possible.

In practice, however, it is improbable for reasons already stated. The Chaos gods are fickle creatures and strongly favor their human servants because humans must choose to follow them. Beastmen physically can't lead a life that is anything but chaotic. As a result a Beastman would need to work ten times harder and achieve a hundred times more than a human follower to get the attention of the Chaos gods and eventually be made into a Daemon Prince.

There are a few Beastmen who do catch the interest of the Chaos gods though. Taurox was blessed by Khorne himself for being the biggest and baddest minotaur the Blood God had ever seen.

beastmen do tend to be blessed in a different way, though. Not by the Chaos gods themselves the way Throgg is, but by Chaos itself.

Morghur is one of the most potent beings of Chaos around. Immortal. Revives himself constantly. Can warp the very world around him just by existing. Transforms those around him into hideous mutant beasts passively. Then there's Slugtongue who casts terrible blight on the land, reducing once fertile valleys into withering, dead plains covered in a deadly frost and diseased vermin. He can turn fresh rivers into toxic sludge and make it rain maggots from the sky. And of course Moonclaw. Though that one is quite unique being born of the Chaos moon itself rather than of any earthly creature.

So while they don't tend to get blessings directly they can be born as a living embodiment of Chaos. Not as glamorous as a Daemon Prince but pretty darn powerful all the same. One might even argue they are a purer, more natural representation of Chaos. Raw and primal. Unchanged by the emotions and beliefs of men.

Goatforce#6625

SaurianDruid said:

Theoretically it is possible.

In practice, however, it is improbable for reasons already stated. The Chaos gods are fickle creatures and strongly favor their human servants because humans must choose to follow them. Beastmen physically can't lead a life that is anything but chaotic. As a result a Beastman would need to work ten times harder and achieve a hundred times more than a human follower to get the attention of the Chaos gods and eventually be made into a Daemon Prince.

There are a few Beastmen who do catch the interest of the Chaos gods though. Taurox was blessed by Khorne himself for being the biggest and baddest minotaur the Blood God had ever seen.

beastmen do tend to be blessed in a different way, though. Not by the Chaos gods themselves the way Throgg is, but by Chaos itself.

Morghur is one of the most potent beings of Chaos around. Immortal. Revives himself constantly. Can warp the very world around him just by existing. Transforms those around him into hideous mutant beasts passively. Then there's Slugtongue who casts terrible blight on the land, reducing once fertile valleys into withering, dead plains covered in a deadly frost and diseased vermin. He can turn fresh rivers into toxic sludge and make it rain maggots from the sky. And of course Moonclaw. Though that one is quite unique being born of the Chaos moon itself rather than of any earthly creature.

So while they don't tend to get blessings directly they can be born as a living embodiment of Chaos. Not as glamorous as a Daemon Prince but pretty darn powerful all the same. One might even argue they are a purer, more natural representation of Chaos. Raw and primal. Unchanged by the emotions and beliefs of men.

Murghur himself is something similar to a Daemon Prince I guess, an immortal who cannot be permanently killed. and Undivided Demigod(/very minor Chaos god) perhaps?

sieah

Can there be a Rat Beastmen? You know, memes excluded about nonexisting Skaven.
If there are Beastmen with Wolf heads and they dont count as Werewolves can the same happen with rats?

Red_Dox#2328

CaesarSahlertz said:

Beastmen havn't been able to become Daemon Princes since the 6th edition of Warhammer. Back in the 6th edition the Beastmen were still considered equal followers of the Chaos gods.

To elaborate on that:

• The 4th edition armybook "Chaos" did not even include a Daemon Prince option.
  
• The 6th edition "Ravening Hordes" Beastmen armylist had no Daemon Prince choice.
  
• The 6th edition "Hordes of Chaos" armybook did have a Daemon Prince choice, but that book included BoC, WoC & DoC.
  
• The "Beasts of Chaos" WD#275 armylist (prelude to armybook) had no Daemon Prince choice.
  
• The 6th edtiion armybook "Beasts of Chaos" had no Daemon Prince choice.
  
• The 7th edition "Beastmen" armybook had no Daemon Prince choice.
  

So for every intent, we can assume that GW never actually did plan in Daemon Princes for Beastmen in the first place. And while pointing to "Hordes of Chaos" and saying "But I could do it there!", it is obvious that book was all three smaeshed in one book. So you basically did not have a Beastmen DP per se, you just cherry picked the WoC/DoC DP for your Beastmen list
That would be also exactly what you would be doing during "The (horrible) Endtimes", when they this time literally smushed 4 armybooks (WoC, BoC, DoC, Skaven) into one list to cherrypick what you want [of course only to further crossover sales before the end].

And for the 6th edition sparkle that everyone sees at the pinnacle of "how chaos should work together", keep in mind

• The edition started with Ravening Hordes, where WoC, BoC & DoC had seperate lists.
  
• Then came the uniting "Hordes of Chaos".
  
• Then we got the split again by getting a seperate DoC list for "Storm of Chaos" and the first BoC draft in the WD.
  
• Then we got the actual BoC armybook.
  
• And 7th edition then introduced the first official DoC armybook, while also renewing the BoC armybook and the seperated WoC armybook, which then carried over or were renewed in 8th edition again.
  
• So in 8th edition we still had the split which already was forced back in 6th edition.
  

Also keep in mind that each armybook had to work on it's own with troops and special rules. So if for example DoC had some weakness written into it, they compensated that with their demonic being. Which made glueing all three books together and just get rid of every weakness ever written down, like with The (horrible) Endtimes, just a bad idea in general.



The lore descriptions of Daemon Princes is particulary vague. So in theory, of course a very smart and strong Beastmen could actually become a DP. But afaik we have no example for that and every Beastmen list never put that option on the table. I would assume it might be because a Beastman will still always be Beast first. He actually might not be smart enough to gain enough favors since not every "challenge" on that road might be solved through brute strength.
So modders can probably later do something like that, since at least DoC will get a DP for sure and the model would be there. I am not sure if CA would go that way for Beastmen, since basically they follow GWs armysplit

and GW certainly seemed to had no interest in Beastmen DPs.

-----Red Dox

Snoopac

Ephraim_Dalton said:

It's not a thing because Beastmen are not high in the god's esteem, no matter what they do, just because they can't help but be chaos-aligned. For humans, elves and so on it's a choice, which is why the gods greatly favor them and offer them godhood.

In AoS the Beastmen emancipated themselves from the gods. They still serve Chaos, but they consider the gods to be lesser aspects of Chaos because they only ever represent limited parts of it and are "too orderly" in their pursuits. Which is why they can now take marks again since their worship is now not a certainty. They still can't become Daemon Princes though and I'm sure most BM wouldn't want to anyway since Daemon Princes are basically part of a Chaos god's gestalt entity and don't have true free will anymore.

I didn't know this. That's interesting actually. Thanks for sharing!

amon_chakai#8270

Some End Times source material reads as follows:
"....many champions of Chaos were uplifted to Daemonhood. This may include Beastmen, but it is stated no one made any records of those final days."

So, it's open to interpretation.

The main argument against this is that beastmen are born into Chaos servitude and so essentially have no free will.
However, as previously mentioned, there is precedent: Morghur is an immortal beastman who achieves minor godhood (daemonhood) in the transition to AoS.

TheShiroOfDalton

amon_chakai said:

Some End Times source material reads as follows:
"....many champions of Chaos were uplifted to Daemonhood. This may include Beastmen, but it is stated no one made any records of those final days."

So, it's open to interpretation.

The main argument against this is that beastmen are born into Chaos servitude and so essentially have no free will.
However, as previously mentioned, there is precedent: Morghur is an immortal beastman who achieves minor godhood (daemonhood) in the transition to AoS.

Morghur is partially sapient chaos energy with a transient, stable form. Not really something that any other Beastman can say of himself. He was essentially a daemon already.
Achieving daemon princehood requires a mark, and in WHFB Beastmen were barred from getting one and thus barred from daemonhood. After Bel'lakor the Chaos gods no longer permitted undivided daemon princes to come about.

Of course, anyone could just contract Nurgle's rot and have his soul warped into a Plaguebearer. I guess even Beastmen can walk that path although Plaguebearerhood is extremely morose and joyless and I think even fervent Nurgle worshipers try to avoid this fate if they can.

BrightestLight

TotalBorehammer said:

BrightestLight said:

Title. Is this a thing, should it be a thing?

If you google "warhammer beastmen daemon prince" how many hits do you get? That would save you making this thread.

there isn't much lore about it, and i can't get peoples opinions from a google search in the same way. no need for the vitriol.

Draculasaurus

The Beastmen really could have benefited from getting a unique Chaos god of their own developed by GW, akin to Hashut or the Horned Rat.

TheShiroOfDalton

Draculasaurus said:

The Beastmen really could have benefited from getting a unique Chaos god of their own developed by GW, akin to Hashut or the Horned Rat.

Or just give them the treatment that AoS gave them where they emancipated themselves from the Chaos Gods and actually make them compete for their favor.

Tyrant#1234

I mean technically they already exist... not so much Daemon Prince, but Super Beastmen all the same.

Morghur - Bastically can't die, the Gods keep resurrecting him
Molokh Slugtongue - No a Beastman as such, but colonies creepy crawlies with a collective consciousness
Moonclaw - No one knows what he is...

saweendra#3399

Draculasaurus said:

The Beastmen really could have benefited from getting a unique Chaos god of their own developed by GW, akin to Hashut or the Horned Rat.

This, let them run wild free and truly chaotic

AHumpierRogue#5296

November 2019 guys.