Speculation about remaining factions, units and LLs to come in WH2

TheWattman#7460

I was initially sceptical to the Warhammer Saga coming to Total War. I was a firm adherent of history and the dive into Warhammer fantasy felt like a betrayal of the franchise. Never the less, I bought Warhammer 1 to try it out. Needless to say, in the early state that it was, I was not impressed. This changed with Warhammer 2. Besides history, my other great passion was dinosaurs. Which needless to say, increased the game's attractiveness to me considerably. Since then, WH2 has grown on me immensly, to become among my favourite games and to date I have 1300+ on the game. It has sparked an interest in the Warhammer World and now I'd like to share my own hopes and wonderings about the content to come. It will be a mix of what I think is likely to come and what I hope is coming in terms of new factions, units and Legendary Lords for the rest of Warhammer 2.

I will keep to the premise that all races will eventually recieve 6 Legendary Lords/factions to play with. Some races, like Norsca & the Wood Elves will be excepted, considering that their current implementations won't really allow for that many options. Also, I will not mention anything about the Greenskins or Chaos races, for the reason that I have too little overall knowledge about major characters and factions among these to form a reliable, grounded opinion.




So first off, lets talk about The High Elves

Current Status: As it stands of the date Im writing this, the High Elves currently have 4 factions and LLs. These are:

Prince Tyrion of Lothern
Teclis, High Loremaster of Hoeth in the Turtle/Volcanic Islands off Lustria
Alarielle the Everqueen of Avelorn
Alith Anar of Nagarythe, based in exile in Naggaroth

This means 3 factions on the continent of Ulthuan and 1 in Naggaroth. With the exception of Teclis, who rather should be the ruler of Saphery in Ulthuan from a lore-standpoint, these are all kingdoms within the larger Elven Empire. This forms the basis for the addition of further lords and factions for this race.

Factions/Lords/Units possible for addition:

With this in mind, lets look at the other Elven kingdoms. These are: Ellyrion, Cothique, Saphery, Tiranoc, Chrace, Caledor and Yvresse. The order I mention these kingdoms is not without purpose, for its in this order that I think its increasingly likely that they will make it at some point into Warhammer 2. Since the High Elves have 4 Lords already, this means that only 2 more will make it in. Therefore, out of these 7 kingdoms, I have divided them in 2 groups. The Unlikely and the Likely to be added.

The Unlikely: Ellyrion, Cothique, Saphery and Tiranoc
Why are these unlikely? Well for the reason that they or the characters associated with these kingdoms only engage in relatively minor events and such in the lore, plus that they wouldn't really add anything in terms of strategy or other content to the game.
Ellyrion is a kingdom with vast plains focused on raising horses, but Ellyrian Reavers are already the basic cavalry unit of the Elves in WH2. Plus Arandir Swiftwing, the ruler of Ellyrion's capital, has an injured hip, so he can't ride a horse. This faction would not bring anything new to WH2
Neither would Cothique, which is a sailing-focused realm. With naval mechanics as they are, I can't see anything new coming with Cothique, who's only attraction would be the addition of Prince Arathion, the father of Tyrion and Teclis themselves.
The same with Saphery. No distinct units besides the various Mages, like Belannaer the Wise, can be added from this realm.
Tiranoc would be the most likely of these. Led by Princess Eldyra, Squire of Prince Tyrion himself, she and her faction makes it here on account of their colony of Arnheim in Naggaroth. She and the Knights of Dusk could be set out on a crusade against Morathi, but this is still unlikely.

The Likely: Chrace, Caledor and Yvresse.
Now we come to the likely candidates, the outer Ulthuani kingdoms of Chrace, Caledor and Yvresse. These are more likely because their additions would bring in new strategies, units and other content to the game. So lets go through these to see what they would bring.

Chrace:

Faction Leader: Korhil, Captain of the White Lions

New Units: War Lions, Lion Chariots + ROR

Describtion: Chrace is the least likely of the Likely factions. Chrace starts in northern Ulthuan in a somewhat exposed position. To the west is the Dark Elves of the Scourge of Khaine, to the north are the Aghol Norscans and to the east is Cothique struggling with invading Skaeling Norscans. Should they break through, you're next. This means that the nearest reliable help is Alarielle in Avelorn and you have to conquer the Unicorn Gate to connect with her. Chrace is the home of the White Lions, who already are a unit in-game, but with the addition of the new war beasts of Lions and the Chariots drawn by them, this would be a really cool way to create diversity from the other Elven factions. Obviously, Korhil would have focus as a lord on buffing his fellow Lions and his quest-items would be Chayal, his axe and the Pelt of Charandis.

I would say that Chrace is the least likely of these factions and if it makes it in official capacity, it will be as an FLC faction or possibly paired with Egil Styrbjörn of the Skaeling Norscans in a DLC potentially called "the Lion and the Butcher" or something.

Caledor:

Faction Leader: Prince Imrik of Caledor

New Units: Something Dragon Related

Describtion: Ah Caledor, the Black Sheep of the Elven Realms. A declining realm, past its prime power, with most of its Dragons gone. Imrik is highly isolated, under siege by Noctilus of the Dreadfleet and none too popular by Tyrion in Lothern either. With Tyrion focused on the Cult of Excess and Tiranoc on its business in Naggaroth, Caledor really stands alone against Noctilus. Now, most of Caledor's hallmarks, like the Dragon Princes and Dragons themselves, are already a part of the High Elf roster, so Im kinda lost as to what in terms of units this faction would actually bring in its DLC or FLC addition. However, I see it more likely that CA will choose the Prince of Dragons rather than the Lion Captain to bring alongside the coming Yvresse. However personally, I would rather see Chrace over Caledor. Imrik's quest items would be the Star Lance, the Armour of Caledor and the Dragonhorn

Yvresse:

Faction Leader: Prince Eltharion the Grim

New Units: Mistwalkers, Knights of Tor Gaval, Faithbearers, Skyhawks, Anaran and Anarelle

Describtion: Yvresse is everyone's favourite candidate for new High Elf additions. And rightfully so. Yvresse has, along with Chrace in my opinion, the most to offer WH2 from a HE standpoint. Eltharion is famous for 2 things: Defeating the WAAAGH! led by Grom the Paunch and for raiding Naggaroth. Now depending on Grom is handled (again, know too little of the Greenskins to opinionize), Eltharion has a few options. He could either start in Ulthuan to defend against Aranessa Saltspite of Sartosa and maybe a scribted invasion by Grom further down the line. Alternatively, Eltharion could start in Arnheim in Naggaroth, with maybe a vassal faction in Ulthuan under siege by Grom the Paunch. Depending on how serious, your missions would either be to sail home and reclaim your lands, or to carry out an invasion of Naggaroth, kind off like Alith Anar. Another feature of Eltharion's could be the unique heroes Anaran and Anarelle, his nephew and niece. Anaran is a melee hero, while Anarelle is a mage. As for new units, the Knights of Tor Gaval, flying Griffin Cavalry and Mistwalkers would be a given, with other additions including Faithbearer spearmen and Skyhawk archers in the possibilities too. Eltharion's own items would be the Fangsword of Eltharion, the Helm of Yvresse and the Talisman of Hoeth.


This is what Im expecting from the High Elves in coming expansions. I will be posting about the other races soon. If you guys have any comments or questions on this, feel free to post!

RikRiorik#9890

I don’t know why anyone would have hostility towards a company for making a game that is slightly different than what they have previously made. But good that you came around. Just a sidenote.

I hope they don’t add Chrace and Korhil and those heinous units. Apart from that we’re good to go. I’d happily take Caledor and Yvresse with those LLs. To be honest they’d be top of my pick, certainly over any other although Aislinn is a wild card. There’s a reason why I like both Alberic and Lokhir after all.

Overlord87#6613

Eltharion is my favorite HE character. Since Crossover DLC packs are now a certainty, and we know that a GS rework is coming, the Eltharion + Grom DLC is practically a given.
I would let Eltharion start in Yvresse both in Vortex and ME. Grom should in my opinion be an Horde, possibly with the capability to settle.

FLC lord could be Imrik, but in all truth, I think Aislinn would be more interesting.

Draxynnic#3149

I'm presuming you'll look at other races in a future installment?

One observation I'd make is that Sealord Aislinn could make for a Cothique start, and if made as DLC, could bring Skycutters and Merwyrms (although I do hope that if Merwyrms are introduced to the High Elves, they're unique to Aislinn's faction or otherwise very scarce: in the fluff, apart from Amanar's occasional defence of Lothern, merwyrms generally only fight for the High Elves when Aislinn is involved). However, his potential for a lord pack is reduced by the fact that his biggest rival, Lokhir, is already implemented, making a Lokhir-Aislinn lord pack unlikely. I'm not sure if Aislinn's background has been fully detailed, but he does seem to have a lot in common with the elves of Cothique... probably more than he does with Eataine/Lothern.

That said, Aislinn is also a standout choice for an expedition leader, so he can end up pretty much anywhere, or even implemented as a semi-horde. Cothique would probably also be an awkward start due to its proximity to Yvresse. Having two allied LLs starting nearby is less than ideal, and the possibility of having Eltharion start away from Ulthuan and then Aislinn ends up taking over Yvresse before Eltharion can is also not ideal.

Caledor has similar issues with Tyrion. Being right adjacent to Eataine/Lothern, a Caledor start would put two High Elf lords in adjacent provinces, and in the Vortex campaign, would mean that Tyrion is pushed to attack a fellow High Elf LL early on. Personally, I've generally considered that Imrik would likely start away from Caledor, at least for the Vortex campaign - his background is one of caring more about making an impact on the wider world than sticking around the homeland and playing politics.

Imrik is probably the standout candidate for an FLC lord, because most of the units associated with him have already been implemented. He could probably come with the Dragon Mage, but since the Dragon mage would probably be best implemented as a Lore of Fire Mage with the option to take a Sun Dragon mount, Dragon Mages also have a good chance of being FLC.

Chrace... honestly feels like it'd probably end up being similar to an Avelorn start. Avelorn is in a more secure location overall, but the natural route for Alarielle to expand is through the Phoenix Gate into Nagarythe, which is also Chrace's most likely initial expansion direction. So it's likely that an Avelorn campaign and a Chrace campaign would end up feeling overly similar after the first few dozen turns. Korhil is also, fairly emphatically, a bodyguard rather than a potential faction leader.

The strongest argument for Yvresse being DLC is, honestly, Grom... and having the next High Elf lordpack being determined by what Greenskins want is, honestly, something that I Have Opinions About - although with the soft limit now apparently being 6 rather than 5, I've tempered this somewhat. Even with Eltharion being the most likely lordpack candidate, I'd really prefer that the lordpack brings the remaining missing units from the army book than the Mistwalkers and Knights of Tor Gaval - the first have always struck me as somewhere between an archer RoR and Shadow Warriors that specialise in fighting demons rather than druchii, and when it comes to the Knights of Tor Gaval... well, I don't think we really need the High Elves to have a copy of Bretonnian Pegasus/Hippogriff Knights. The fluff does mention that some of the Knights of Tor Gaval have acquired Skycutters, though, so that could provide Eltharion with a connection to Skycutters - and the Knights Of Tor Gaval can then be implemented as a Skycutter RoR. But, in all honesty, there's not really anything that makes Eltharion good for a lord pack except for his rivalry with Grom. However, I have to admit that that is a fairly convincing argument.

So, to conclude:

I don't think Korhil is really LL material. (Addendum: Similar observations apply to Caradryan. Even as the Incarnate of Fire in the End Times, Caradryan didn't really have the confidence to lead.)

Imrik is probably the standout FLC candidate.

Aislinn has the closest connection to remaining High Elf units that might come in a DLC, but his most likely rival is already in game.

Eltharion has the clearest rival, but a weak connection to the High Elf units that are still missing.

doclumbago#6250

CA seems to be interested in possible new mechanics / gameplay for new LL

So maybe think in terms of what each of these new Lords could get as an extra

Caledor: Dragon Awakening
(something like the Blessed Spawning but well--Dragons)

Eltharion: something resembling the Fightiness of Greenskins

Korhil: maybe Hunting sidequests for unique RoR

I expect Dragonmages (Heroes or Generals) & White Lion Chariots,
maybe even Skycutters down the line-probably all packed in one DLC,
no matter the the LL

TheWattman#7460

Draxynnic said:

I'm presuming you'll look at other races in a future installment?

One observation I'd make is that Sealord Aislinn could make for a Cothique start, and if made as DLC, could bring Skycutters and Merwyrms (although I do hope that if Merwyrms are introduced to the High Elves, they're unique to Aislinn's faction or otherwise very scarce: in the fluff, apart from Amanar's occasional defence of Lothern, merwyrms generally only fight for the High Elves when Aislinn is involved). However, his potential for a lord pack is reduced by the fact that his biggest rival, Lokhir, is already implemented, making a Lokhir-Aislinn lord pack unlikely. I'm not sure if Aislinn's background has been fully detailed, but he does seem to have a lot in common with the elves of Cothique... probably more than he does with Eataine/Lothern.

That said, Aislinn is also a standout choice for an expedition leader, so he can end up pretty much anywhere, or even implemented as a semi-horde. Cothique would probably also be an awkward start due to its proximity to Yvresse. Having two allied LLs starting nearby is less than ideal, and the possibility of having Eltharion start away from Ulthuan and then Aislinn ends up taking over Yvresse before Eltharion can is also not ideal.

The strongest argument for Yvresse being DLC is, honestly, Grom... and having the next High Elf lordpack being determined by what Greenskins want is, honestly, something that I Have Opinions About - although with the soft limit now apparently being 6 rather than 5, I've tempered this somewhat. Even with Eltharion being the most likely lordpack candidate, I'd really prefer that the lordpack brings the remaining missing units from the army book than the Mistwalkers and Knights of Tor Gaval - the first have always struck me as somewhere between an archer RoR and Shadow Warriors that specialise in fighting demons rather than druchii, and when it comes to the Knights of Tor Gaval... well, I don't think we really need the High Elves to have a copy of Bretonnian Pegasus/Hippogriff Knights. The fluff does mention that some of the Knights of Tor Gaval have acquired Skycutters, though, so that could provide Eltharion with a connection to Skycutters - and the Knights Of Tor Gaval can then be implemented as a Skycutter RoR. But, in all honesty, there's not really anything that makes Eltharion good for a lord pack except for his rivalry with Grom. However, I have to admit that that is a fairly convincing argument.

So, to conclude:

Aislinn has the closest connection to remaining High Elf units that might come in a DLC, but his most likely rival is already in game.

Eltharion has the clearest rival, but a weak connection to the High Elf units that are still missing.

Yes, I will cover the other races soon enough

Considering how Amanar is handled by the Vampire Coast, I find it unlikely that Merwyrms would all the sudden be a recruitable unit for the Elves.

As I see it, Aislinn would either fit to qualify as a 2nd lord for Lothern or in an expedition somewhere else. Such expeditions I prefer not to speculate around, since I prefer to deal with Lords with fixed base locations. But I would be willing to consider this as a lower Likely scenario along with Chrace. Makes it only natural to have a HE variant of Lokhir after all.

Labria#2848

I agree about these three characters. Plus Caradryan can be Legendary hero.
Also, I think Sea Lord Aislinn can be Legendary lord with horda system in game 3.
This would be perfect for High Elves.

Maedrethnir#1968

Ah yet another piece of Greenskin propaganda. Biased, uninformed and outdated.

Caledor is the most important: lore, theme and gameplay wise kingdom.

Missing units of stricte Dragonrealm flavour:

L: Archmage
H: Dragon Mage
H: Lore of Metal Mage
Units:
1. Dragonspine Princes
2. Talons of Tor Caleda
3. Dragon Guard of Tor Caled
4. Emperor Dragon

summertimelovin#4461

I would very much like Eltharion as DLC lord while Aislinn is FLC. Both Eltharion and Aislinn start away from Ulthuan (Eltharion somewhere in Naggaroth maybe) while Yvresse is infested with greenskins which could be Grom's vassal if he is a horde.

Eltharion won't take part in the vortex. Instead his campaign focuses on securing Yvresse (which could be given maybe one more settlement). Securing the province and destroying the greenskin threat should trigger the final battle against Grom with Aislinn and his seaguards reinforcing you from the shore.

Eltharion can come with any units you could justify as part of his Naggaroth invasion force. Skycutters should probably be FLC and made a mount option for the Sea Lord.

Arthas_Menethil#3421

Maedrethnir said:

Ah yet another piece of Greenskin propaganda. Biased, uninformed and outdated.

Caledor is the most important: lore, theme and gameplay wise kingdom.

Missing units of stricte Dragonhunting flavour:

L: Arch Dragon hunter
H: Dragon Hunter
Units:
1. Dragon hunter Princes
2. Hunters of Tor Caleda
3. Dragon hunters of Tor Caled
4. Emperor Dragon Bolt Thrower

The true theme and gameplay for the ex Prince Imrik.

TheWattman#7460

Maedrethnir said:

Ah yet another piece of Greenskin propaganda. Biased, uninformed and outdated.

Caledor is the most important: lore, theme and gameplay wise kingdom.

Missing units of stricte Dragonrealm flavour:

L: Archmage
H: Dragon Mage
H: Lore of Metal Mage
Units:
1. Dragonspine Princes
2. Talons of Tor Caleda
3. Dragon Guard of Tor Caled
4. Emperor Dragon

You have a valid point about these units and especially the generic lords and heroes, which I forgot to include a section on (oops). I chose not to mention these units because they seemed just other versions of what they already have, but granted, if Caledor comes, this will be a likely setup.

Erathil#3988

A few points:

Although Alith Anar is the leader of Nagarythe, he doesn't start in that province in either Mortal Empires or the Vortex.

This is because Ulthuan is a super homogeneous area, filled with nothing but high elves and two minor dark elf factions that basically exist for early game conquest. High Elves had the intrigue mechanic which softly discourages conquering neighboring kingdoms in favor of peaceful confederation, which can make Tyrion and Alarielle's early game a tad dull unless you play out of character.

I think it's likely that any new High Elf Legendary Lords will be placed outside of Ulthuan, like Teclis. The fact that Eltherion is known to range far, with campaigns both in Naggaroth and the Badlands, is the single greatest point in his favor, as it would give High Elves a unique start location.

As for units... the High Elf roster is mostly complete, at least as it was on the table-top. While they're missing a smattering of specialized heroes (Dragon Mages, Anoited of Asuryan, Lothern Sea Helms, lord-level Archmages), there are only two units they're missing from their 8th edition rule book:

White Lion Chariot: a heavy shock chariot. Basically identical to the Ilthrimar Chariot in terms of function, and since said chariot wasn't part of the army book it was likely implemented as a place holder so they wouldn't have to create unique lion animations for a single, kind of underwhelming unit.

Lothern Sky Cutter: a flying missile chariot, with a minor artillery variant. This is the biggest single missing unit in their roster and has a lot of potential to change their game-play. High elves have a lot of flyers, but they're all comparatively slow, save for the eagle which is just garbage.

The big problem here is that... well, both units are chariots, and aside from that there's nothing thematically linking them. The Sky-Cutter is associated with a city that's been playable since day one. The White Lion Chariot is kind of redundant, too.

Erathil#3988

Maedrethnir said:

Ah yet another piece of Greenskin propaganda. Biased, uninformed and outdated.

Caledor is the most important: lore, theme and gameplay wise kingdom.

Missing units of stricte Dragonrealm flavour:

L: Archmage
H: Dragon Mage
H: Lore of Metal Mage
Units:
1. Dragonspine Princes
2. Talons of Tor Caleda
3. Dragon Guard of Tor Caled
4. Emperor Dragon

There is nothing connecting the Archmage and the Lore of Metal mage directly to Caledor. If they have a connection with one of the realms, it'd be Saphery, but they're really pretty generic High Elf fare.

Dragon Mages... well, yes, those are directly associated with Caledor, but they've always been weirdly niche. It's just a mage, restricted to the lore of fire, who rides a dragon. On the table top they were basically just a way to field a cheap dragon in your army. I'm not really sure how that would translate to the game's mount system. A fire mage who can eventually take a dragon mount? A super expensive fire mage that comes with a dragon mount?

I had to look up three of those units. Two of them are just regiments mentioned in the End Times books.

1) Dragonspine Princes: the most elite Dragon Princes of Caledor, marshalled by Imrik as a super elite unit in the End Times. Implied to have dragon support, although most still rode horses.

2) Talons of Tor Caleda: a regiment of normal Caledorian soldiers who defied Imrik's wishes and served as part of the garrison in the High Elf Gates, alongside soldiers of the other kingdoms.

3) Dragon Guard of Tor Caled: the only mention I can find of these guys is in mods and other threads about Caledor units. Apparently, they're supposed to be elite infantry, but I can't find any actual lore sources.

4) Emperor Dragon: really big dragons. Only I haven't seen any lore that actually ties them to the dragons of Ulthuan, the ones with whom Caledor shares an alliance and heritage. Emperor Dragons are just the oldest, biggest, and most magical dragons of any type in the world.

Maedrethnir#1968

Arthas_Menethil said:

Maedrethnir said:

Ah yet another piece of Greenskin propaganda. Biased, uninformed and outdated.

Caledor is the most important: lore, theme and gameplay wise kingdom.

Missing units of stricte Dragonhunting flavour:

L: Arch Dragon hunter
H: Dragon Hunter
Units:
1. Dragon hunter Princes
2. Hunters of Tor Caleda
3. Dragon hunters of Tor Caled
4. Emperor Dragon Bolt Thrower

The true theme and gameplay for the ex Prince Imrik.

Simply the bestest. His faction should be named 'Scions of Ahab'

TheWattman said:

Maedrethnir said:

Ah yet another piece of Greenskin propaganda. Biased, uninformed and outdated.

Caledor is the most important: lore, theme and gameplay wise kingdom.

Missing units of stricte Dragonrealm flavour:

L: Archmage
H: Dragon Mage
H: Lore of Metal Mage
Units:
1. Dragonspine Princes
2. Talons of Tor Caleda
3. Dragon Guard of Tor Caled
4. Emperor Dragon

You have a valid point about these units and especially the generic lords and heroes, which I forgot to include a section on (oops). I chose not to mention these units because they seemed just other versions of what they already have, but granted, if Caledor comes, this will be a likely setup.

Yes. Every bit of Caledor ranks is worth it!

Erathil said:

Maedrethnir said:

Ah yet another piece of Greenskin propaganda. Biased, uninformed and outdated.

Caledor is the most important: lore, theme and gameplay wise kingdom.

Missing units of stricte Dragonrealm flavour:

L: Archmage
H: Dragon Mage
H: Lore of Metal Mage
Units:
1. Dragonspine Princes
2. Talons of Tor Caleda
3. Dragon Guard of Tor Caled
4. Emperor Dragon

There is nothing connecting the Archmage and the Lore of Metal mage directly to Caledor. If they have a connection with one of the realms, it'd be Saphery, but they're really pretty generic High Elf fare.

Dragon Mages... well, yes, those are directly associated with Caledor, but they've always been weirdly niche. It's just a mage, restricted to the lore of fire, who rides a dragon. On the table top they were basically just a way to field a cheap dragon in your army. I'm not really sure how that would translate to the game's mount system. A fire mage who can eventually take a dragon mount? A super expensive fire mage that comes with a dragon mount?

I had to look up three of those units. Two of them are just regiments mentioned in the End Times books.

1) Dragonspine Princes: the most elite Dragon Princes of Caledor, marshalled by Imrik as a super elite unit in the End Times. Implied to have dragon support, although most still rode horses.

2) Talons of Tor Caleda: a regiment of normal Caledorian soldiers who defied Imrik's wishes and served as part of the garrison in the High Elf Gates, alongside soldiers of the other kingdoms.

3) Dragon Guard of Tor Caled: the only mention I can find of these guys is in mods and other threads about Caledor units. Apparently, they're supposed to be elite infantry, but I can't find any actual lore sources.

4) Emperor Dragon: really big dragons. Only I haven't seen any lore that actually ties them to the dragons of Ulthuan, the ones with whom Caledor shares an alliance and heritage. Emperor Dragons are just the oldest, biggest, and most magical dragons of any type in the world.

Archmage - dragon mount

Lore of Metal Mage - Vaul's Anvil and the priests.

One of these options for sure. Good excuse to expand Lore of Fire and add fancy spells like Conflagration of Doom or Magma Storm. Oh and Breathe Fire but of course.

Yes, regiments elevated to units rank.

1. They can be mounted on drakes for gameplay's purpose. Also in Sons of Ellyrion Prince Imrik awakens all dragons which means plenty of scales to ride.
2. Yes, they can be given fire arrows for theme's purpose.
3. It comes from WH:Age of Reckoning MMO. It's NPC guard.
4. Really big dragons capable of casting spells. Their ties are mentioned in Storm of Magic.

TheWattman#7460

Next Topic:

The Tomb Kings

From the prideful and noble Ulthuan, we now journey to the unforgiving deserts of the Tomb Kings. In much the same fashion as the Elves, this race also currently has 4 LLs to choose from, which are:

Settra the Imperishable, who does not serve, but rule in the Nehekharan capital of Khemri
Khatep the Liche Lord, in an eternal search of jars, books and scrolls in Naggaroth
High Queen Khalida of Lybaras, either off in Lustria for... some reason, or in Lybaras itself
Arkhan the Black, Liche King and First Follower of Nagash

What we see here is 1 rightful Tomb King ruling the Nehekharan capital, 1 Liche Priest (who from a lore standpoint really should be a hero if implemented at all) and a Queen (who for the sake of the state of the game 2 map has to be) off on expeditions outside the homeland and the herald of their common Archnemesis on the edge of Araby (who really should be moved to his own tower if we have any hope of getting Araby, but that's another subject entirely). And the Tomb Kings are all about their great pyramid-cities within their homeland of Nehekhara, so it is in those that we must look to locate 2 more Lords to join their bretheren.

Factions/Units/Lords possible for addition:

The remaining Nehekharan cities are: Rasetra, Ka-Sabar, Bhagar, Mahrak, Quatar, Zandri and Numas. Just like the previous High Elves, 7 further realms to explore. Even here I mention these cities in increasing likelyhood of addition and also here I divide them into Unlikely and Likely sections. But this time, the question between unlikely and likely is a little more clear cut.

The Unlikely: Rasetra, Ka-Sabar, Bhagar, Mahrak and Quatar:

For the same reason that I defined for the High Elves, these realms are branded as unlikely due to their secondary importance to both the general lore and the region itself.
Although cities like Rasetra, Ka-Sabar and Bhagar were among the principal to lead the resistance against Nagash's rule over Nehekhara, they have since taken a backseat to the others. They've either been conquered by Khemri multiple times or just engaged in very minor independent activities. Mahrak is the most likely out of these minors, since its King Phar was famous in his long resistance to Settra's reign, even remarking him as the Imperishable's greatest rival. Its native military guardians wore magnificent golden shields, but this is not enough to distinguish the city. Mahrak's location in Eastern Nehekhara makes this very unlikely to add a faction only available on Mortal Empires, plus as a close neighbor of already playable Queen Khalida. Quatar may have less lore attached than Mahrak, but this is compensated by the fact that the city's champion, Vizier Sehenesmet, rides inside a Bone Giant.

The Likely: Zandri and Numas:

It is here in these 2 cities that we see the stuff that is left to flesh out for the Tomb Kings race. And these are especially interesting, because both these cities could have significantly different personalities depending on which way you want to implement them. Which makes these 2 cities really the only possible candidates for additional Tomb King content. Let me tell you what Im thinking.

Zandri:

Faction Leader: Amanhotep the Intolerant OR King Amenemhetum

New Units: Lions of the Sand (Ushabti Great Weapons), the Crocogar Legion (Archer ROR) and Zandri Blackshields/Eternals + maybe Tomb King Sailors/ Admiral Lord

Describtion: Zandri, THE FLEETPORT OF TERROR. Sounds awesome doesn't it? Well as the nickname says, this is the main naval port of Nehekhara. The Tomb Kings were not all about their sand covered pyramids and sand covered... sands... because they did engage in naval stuff as well. And Amanhotep and Amenemhetum (careful, don't mix them up) were basically the 2 Grand Admirals. Amenemhetum built a vast fleet of warships and conquered lands as far away as Tilea and the Border Princes, but it was at sea that he felt most at home and in his Undeath, he basically turned his back on Nehekhara to solely roam the waves with his mighty fleet, to raid far and wide. Now Amanhotep the Intolerant was by mistake taken in his mummified form by Bretonnian Knights in a raid. When he woke up away from his home he was... unpleased to say the least. Returning to Zandri, he would be... unpleased again when Captain Jaego Roth raided his coastline, so built the Curse of Zandri to go on a hunt after Roth and combined his forces with none other than Count Noctilus himself, forming the Dreadfleet.

I think its safe to say that Zandri will likely be the FLC or however CA decides to handle the other Tomb King lord in addition to the DLC one. If they decide to include Zandri in a DLC though, then who better to have him square off against than Jaego Roth, Captain of the Heldenhammer (who I hope to god will not be included as another Vampire Captain) eh? But as I said, Zandri is likely the FLC to the DLC that adds the following faction.

Numas:

Faction Leader: Prince Tutankhanut or Imrathepis, the Crimson King

New Units: Crimson Guard, Khemric Titans (Beetle Construct), Sphinx Legion of Numas + Tomb Herald Lord/Hero and MAYBE Scythans.

Describtion: This is the big one left for the Tomb Kings people, the Scarab City. 2 things set this city apart and those are the 2 rulers mentioned. Lets start with Imrathepis, the Crimson King. He was basically left hand (or rather attack-dog) of King Alcadizzar the Conqueror and helped him fight Nagash, crushed a Greenskin tribe and sacked Vampire-held Lahmia. When he woke again from Undeath, Imrathepis went on a furious war-spree into the Badlands, over the World's Edge Mountains and across into the Mountains of Mourn! Because you know, that's what you do when you wake up as a mummy right? Anyway, he was eventually defeated and killed there by the Thunderfoot Ogres, but had the last laugh when his son Rakaph III went there to avenge his father and killed the entire Ogre tribe with an avalanche.

Needless to say, this is the best possible way to implement the Tomb Kings in WH3 should CA want that.

As for Prince Tutankhanut, its a different story. During his reign a tribe of desert nomads called the Scythans came upon Numas and saw in Tutankhanut a manifestation of their god. They submitted to him and gave him their devotion. In turn, Tutankhanut gave them his. He fiercely protects his living servants, who continue to serve even in Undeath. In battle or in the management of the city, the two parties protect and nurture one another.

This is basically the Tomb King variant of Isabella von Carstein, who can recruit living units to serve in their otherwise Undead armies. A roster of desert nomads, probably a close-to-peasant melee unit and a cavalry unit, with the potential for more. Scythans would though require Tutankhanut be the ruler of Numas, not Imrathepis. So depending on what CA wants to do in the Mountains of Mourn, its a dead-even race between these two lords.

What do you think guys?

Neodeinos#5871

TheWattman said:

Next Topic:

The Tomb Kings

From the prideful and noble Ulthuan, we now journey to the unforgiving deserts of the Tomb Kings. In much the same fashion as the Elves, this race also currently has 4 LLs to choose from, which are:

Settra the Imperishable, who does not serve, but rule in the Nehekharan capital of Khemri
Khatep the Liche Lord, in an eternal search of jars, books and scrolls in Naggaroth
High Queen Khalida of Lybaras, either off in Lustria for... some reason, or in Lybaras itself
Arkhan the Black, Liche King and First Follower of Nagash

What we see here is 1 rightful Tomb King ruling the Nehekharan capital, 1 Liche Priest (who from a lore standpoint really should be a hero if implemented at all) and a Queen (who for the sake of the state of the game 2 map has to be) off on expeditions outside the homeland and the herald of their common Archnemesis on the edge of Araby (who really should be moved to his own tower if we have any hope of getting Araby, but that's another subject entirely). And the Tomb Kings are all about their great pyramid-cities within their homeland of Nehekhara, so it is in those that we must look to locate 2 more Lords to join their bretheren.

Factions/Units/Lords possible for addition:

The remaining Nehekharan cities are: Rasetra, Ka-Sabar, Bhagar, Mahrak, Quatar, Zandri and Numas. Just like the previous High Elves, 7 further realms to explore. Even here I mention these cities in increasing likelyhood of addition and also here I divide them into Unlikely and Likely sections. But this time, the question between unlikely and likely is a little more clear cut.

The Unlikely: Rasetra, Ka-Sabar, Bhagar, Mahrak and Quatar:

For the same reason that I defined for the High Elves, these realms are branded as unlikely due to their secondary importance to both the general lore and the region itself.
Although cities like Rasetra, Ka-Sabar and Bhagar were among the principal to lead the resistance against Nagash's rule over Nehekhara, they have since taken a backseat to the others. They've either been conquered by Khemri multiple times or just engaged in very minor independent activities. Mahrak is the most likely out of these minors, since its King Phar was famous in his long resistance to Settra's reign, even remarking him as the Imperishable's greatest rival. Its native military guardians wore magnificent golden shields, but this is not enough to distinguish the city. Mahrak's location in Eastern Nehekhara makes this very unlikely to add a faction only available on Mortal Empires, plus as a close neighbor of already playable Queen Khalida. Quatar may have less lore attached than Mahrak, but this is compensated by the fact that the city's champion, Vizier Sehenesmet, rides inside a Bone Giant.

The Likely: Zandri and Numas:

It is here in these 2 cities that we see the stuff that is left to flesh out for the Tomb Kings race. And these are especially interesting, because both these cities could have significantly different personalities depending on which way you want to implement them. Which makes these 2 cities really the only possible candidates for additional Tomb King content. Let me tell you what Im thinking.

Zandri:

Faction Leader: Amanhotep the Intolerant OR King Amenemhetum

New Units: Lions of the Sand (Ushabti Great Weapons), the Crocogar Legion (Archer ROR) and Zandri Blackshields/Eternals + maybe Tomb King Sailors/ Admiral Lord

Describtion: Zandri, THE FLEETPORT OF TERROR. Sounds awesome doesn't it? Well as the nickname says, this is the main naval port of Nehekhara. The Tomb Kings were not all about their sand covered pyramids and sand covered... sands... because they did engage in naval stuff as well. And Amanhotep and Amenemhetum (careful, don't mix them up) were basically the 2 Grand Admirals. Amenemhetum built a vast fleet of warships and conquered lands as far away as Tilea and the Border Princes, but it was at sea that he felt most at home and in his Undeath, he basically turned his back on Nehekhara to solely roam the waves with his mighty fleet, to raid far and wide. Now Amanhotep the Intolerant was by mistake taken in his mummified form by Bretonnian Knights in a raid. When he woke up away from his home he was... unpleased to say the least. Returning to Zandri, he would be... unpleased again when Captain Jaego Roth raided his coastline, so built the Curse of Zandri to go on a hunt after Roth and combined his forces with none other than Count Noctilus himself, forming the Dreadfleet.

I think its safe to say that Zandri will likely be the FLC or however CA decides to handle the other Tomb King lord in addition to the DLC one. If they decide to include Zandri in a DLC though, then who better to have him square off against than Jaego Roth, Captain of the Heldenhammer (who I hope to god will not be included as another Vampire Captain) eh? But as I said, Zandri is likely the FLC to the DLC that adds the following faction.

Numas:

Faction Leader: Prince Tutankhanut or Imrathepis, the Crimson King

New Units: Crimson Guard, Khemric Titans (Beetle Construct), Sphinx Legion of Numas + Tomb Herald Lord/Hero and MAYBE Scythans.

Describtion: This is the big one left for the Tomb Kings people, the Scarab City. 2 things set this city apart and those are the 2 rulers mentioned. Lets start with Imrathepis, the Crimson King. He was basically left hand (or rather attack-dog) of King Alcadizzar the Conqueror and helped him fight Nagash, crushed a Greenskin tribe and sacked Vampire-held Lahmia. When he woke again from Undeath, Imrathepis went on a furious war-spree into the Badlands, over the World's Edge Mountains and across into the Mountains of Mourn! Because you know, that's what you do when you wake up as a mummy right? Anyway, he was eventually defeated and killed there by the Thunderfoot Ogres, but had the last laugh when his son Rakaph III went there to avenge his father and killed the entire Ogre tribe with an avalanche.

Needless to say, this is the best possible way to implement the Tomb Kings in WH3 should CA want that.

As for Prince Tutankhanut, its a different story. During his reign a tribe of desert nomads called the Scythans came upon Numas and saw in Tutankhanut a manifestation of their god. They submitted to him and gave him their devotion. In turn, Tutankhanut gave them his. He fiercely protects his living servants, who continue to serve even in Undeath. In battle or in the management of the city, the two parties protect and nurture one another.

This is basically the Tomb King variant of Isabella von Carstein, who can recruit living units to serve in their otherwise Undead armies. A roster of desert nomads, probably a close-to-peasant melee unit and a cavalry unit, with the potential for more. Scythans would though require Tutankhanut be the ruler of Numas, not Imrathepis. So depending on what CA wants to do in the Mountains of Mourn, its a dead-even race between these two lords.

What do you think guys?

I think that I have a ****. Also I would add Apophas as a potential leader leader of Numas. I know he is supposed to be a hero but he'd just make an excellent LL imo.

Erathil#3988

I like the idea of Amanhotep being introduced as a sort of Vampire Coast-like lord.

I could see him with a mobile horde based on his flagship, the Curse of Zandri. He could start far away from Nehekara, maybe up between Norsca and the Empire in the Sea of Claws. He could have a unique mechanic where he raids and sacks coastal settlements to reclaim Nehekharan treasures and plunder, and is rewarded for his efforts in a reinforcement system like Markus Wulfheart's.

I don't know if we'll ever see Tomb King DLC, but if we do, a mobile Zandri navy seems like the most interesting way to approach it.

Draxynnic#3149

Erathil said:

White Lion Chariot: a heavy shock chariot. Basically identical to the Ilthrimar Chariot in terms of function, and since said chariot wasn't part of the army book it was likely implemented as a place holder so they wouldn't have to create unique lion animations for a single, kind of underwhelming unit.

The WLC being redundant with the Ithilmar chariot around is a common myth, but it is a myth. Between the higher Strength of the lions and the great weapons of the crew, a WLC is likely to have mostly AP damage, while the Ithilmar chariot has mostly regular damage. Similar comparisons are already present in other races (Gorebeast Chariot versus regular Chaos Chariots, for instance).

Erathil said:

There is nothing connecting the Archmage and the Lore of Metal mage directly to Caledor. If they have a connection with one of the realms, it'd be Saphery, but they're really pretty generic High Elf fare.

Vaul's Anvil. Caledor is where the best equipment for the High Elves gets made, so it would make a lot of sense for mages specialising in the Lore of Metal to congregate there.

Erathil said:

Dragon Mages... well, yes, those are directly associated with Caledor, but they've always been weirdly niche. It's just a mage, restricted to the lore of fire, who rides a dragon. On the table top they were basically just a way to field a cheap dragon in your army. I'm not really sure how that would translate to the game's mount system. A fire mage who can eventually take a dragon mount? A super expensive fire mage that comes with a dragon mount?

I've generally considered the Dragon Mage to be something you'd implement as a Lore of Fire mage who can eventually take a Sun Dragon mount. Similar to how the Beasts Wizard for the Empire can eventually get a Griffon while other Empire Wizards are limited to pegasi.

Draxynnic#3149

Regarding the Tomb Kings:

I think either of those could work. Apophas I'm inclined to disregard as a possibility, since he's emphatically not even suited as a leader of units, let alone armies or a faction.

I think you might have sold Quatar short, though, since between Ramhotep and Sehenesmet, Quatar is well positioned to being the construct capital of the Tomb Kings. Granted, Quatar doesn't have its own section in the latest Tomb Kings book, but the Charnel Valley does, and Quatar is probably a large part of why the Charnel Valley is full of constructs.

Labria#2848

I prefer Ramhotep for Numas faction. He is most interesting missing character from 8th army book. We don't have Necrotect Lord. Sehenesmet can be also unique hero for him. I think he is best option for next FLC/DLC.

Zandri is in same province with Khemri. I don't think Amanhotep will start here. Amanhotep is can easy start far from home. I think he can wait to game 3. Maybe even Amanhotep can have horda system.

TheWattman#7460

Draxynnic said:

Regarding the Tomb Kings:

I think either of those could work. Apophas I'm inclined to disregard as a possibility, since he's emphatically not even suited as a leader of units, let alone armies or a faction.

I think you might have sold Quatar short, though, since between Ramhotep and Sehenesmet, Quatar is well positioned to being the construct capital of the Tomb Kings. Granted, Quatar doesn't have its own section in the latest Tomb Kings book, but the Charnel Valley does, and Quatar is probably a large part of why the Charnel Valley is full of constructs.

Labria said:

I prefer Ramhotep for Numas faction. He is most interesting missing character from 8th army book. We don't have Necrotect Lord. Sehenesmet can be also unique hero for him. I think he is best option for next FLC/DLC.

Zandri is in same province with Khemri. I don't think Amanhotep will start here. Amanhotep is can easy start far from home. I think he can wait to game 3. Maybe even Amanhotep can have horda system.

You make valid points, perhaps I was too dismissive of Quatar. However to put Ramhotep in charge of Numas is a step too far, better just to seperate Quatar from Numas and form its own faction, at the expense of Zandri. I really do believe that Numas is coming due to its connection with coming WH3 with Imrathepis.

Whether its Numas or Quatar, both have to deal with the same enemies: Badland and Mountain Greenskins in the north, Necrarch Vampires down south, Queek Headtaker and of course unificationist Settra to the west

TheWattman#7460

Next Topic:

Bretonnia

From the desert and a civilization scarred by sand and magic, we sail from Zandri north to a realm of shiny armour, honour and faith in a pond-woman. Bretonnia. Unlike the High Elves and the Tomb Kings though, this race can only count itself 3 Lords as of this moment:

Louen Leoncouer, the rightful High King of Bretonnia in northern Couronne
Alberic d'Bordeleaux, the Sea-Lord of wine-soaked central Bordeleaux
Morgiana le Fay, personafication and representative of a Goddess, in southern Carcassone.

As we can see by this, Bretonnia's current Lords are all concentrated in the homeland. A homeland, that's already rather crowded. Which means that it is rather unlikely that more than say 1 of the remaining dukedoms are fit to qualify to playable status. However, the current status of WH2 might just force upwards of 2 new additions to the homeland depending on which way CA wants to go.

Factions/Units/Lords possible for addition:

Operating under the assumption that CA will not bring in the dukedoms still missing by turning all of Bretonnia into a realm of 1-city provinces, the remaining dukedoms are: Artois, Parravon, Lyonesse, Mousillon and Bastonne. But there are also other Bretonnian factions on the map, which are the 3 Crusading States in Araby. Of them I'd like to elevate the Knights of Origo to the discussion. Lastly, I would also bring a few special characters, without currently associated factions, to light. These would be Percival d'Gisourex, Marcel d'Parravon and Pierre d'Antoch. So lets divide them into categories again.

The Unlikely: Artois and Parravon / Percival d'Gisourex and Marcel d'Parravon:

I can't really see any scenario which would bring in either Artois or Parravon into the game, assuming we allow ME-only factions to come in at all. Artois attention is really on itself and its problems with the Beastmen in the Arden, plus its directly south of Couronne. Much in the same way, Parravon just sits there breeding Pegasuses, cornered by the Wood Elves, the Fay and the Massif, not offering anything new.
Now Percival d'Gisourex is, for those who don't know, the Bretonnian Lord in Albion, sent on an expedition by Louen himself. However, with Albion already the starting location of Nakai as of H&B, this basically eliminates any possibility of another playable character there as well. It kinda defeats the purpose for Nakai to sweep into Norsca if he has to counter a Bretonnian crusade first.
As for Marcel d'Parravon, this makes me hate (as a Lizardmen fan) Markus Wulfhart more than I already do. Marcel d'Parravon was a Bretonnian Lord that actually founded a settlement in Lustria (that wasn't destroyed) called Bregonne. It was situated near Tlaxtlan... sigh... almost exactly where Markus Wulfhart starts his campaign currently. Bregonne was actually added to the game by Crynsos in his celebrated Unlocker, but unless CA moves Wulfhart to like Axlotl, Bregonne is likely not happening. (Also the fact that they chose Rodrik de L'Anguille, who in the lore fails in both of his raids on Lustria, over Marcel is also something Im grumpy about)

The Likely: Lyonesse, Mousillon and Bastonne / Knights of Origo and Pierre d'Antoch

These are divided between homeland dukedoms and potentially playable expeditions outside the homeland. Either we're getting 1 of these dukedoms and both expeditions or we're getting 2 dukedoms and 1 expedition. Lets dive in and see what they could offer, starting with the dukedoms.

Lyonesse:

Faction Leader: Repanse d'Lyonesse

New Units: Chevaliers de la Damoiselle de Guerre (Errant ROR), the Bowmen of Lyonesse (Archer ROR), the Spearmen of Lyonesse (Spear ROR) + Hero Henri le Massif & Female Knight Lord.

Describtion: Anyone who thought I would be talking about Adalhard, get out of here lol. No, if Lyonesse, sandwiched between Couronne and Mousillon is ever gonna come in an official capacity, its gonna be under the Duchess Repanse of Lyonesse, the Joan of Arc of Warhammer France Bretonnia. This makes sense, because one of her RORs, the Defenders of the Fleur de Lys, is already in the game. 500 years before the crowning of Karl Franz, Bretonnia was under siege by the forces of Chaos. Its Royarch Louis the Brave lay dead and the warbands stood before the gates of Couronne. Then Repanse had a vision by the Lady of the Lake and took up the armour of a fallen knight. Defeated knights rallied to her side and together they fell upon the sieging Chaos Army, with Repanse decapitating a Lord of Nurgle herself. The new Royarch Louis the Young granted her Lyonesse in return.

I don't think you can find this kind of girlpower anywhere else in the Warhammer World. Sure Lyonesse is right next to Couronne, but come on, Warhammer JOAN OF ARC. Still, due to the position, this comes as little likely. Plus, if the Female Knights become a thing, we could add in Malory de Mousillon (daughter of the last legitimate duke of Mousillon) as an unlockable lord to put in charge of a reconquered Mousillon. Speaking of which!

Mousillon:

Faction Leader: Mallobaude, the Black Knight

New Units: Black Grail Knights, Grey Men and other thematically "Dark Bretonnia" units + some Vampires and Hero Aucassin of Mousillon or Eustace of the Rusting Blade

Describtion: What would Optimus Prime Louen Leoncouer be without Megatron Mallobaude, his dark, bastard son? The self-proclaimed Duke of Mousillon and Pretender of Bretonnia. In the lore, he pulls off a civil war and strikes down his father in his dark quest to become Royarch. Aided by disgraced knights and vampires alike, he rumbles around Bretonnia defeating basically everyone. That, until he gets his head noped clean off by the Green Knight at the gates of Couronne. Hubris.

What Im proposing here is a hybrid Vampire-Bretonnia faction, in the Vampire diplomatic sphere, but has access to Bretonnian units and Lords. It has a specific rivalry system with Couronne, possibly implemented in a modified version of the Imperial Fealty system, only accessable to Couronne and Mousillon to represent the loyalty of the dukes to either Louen or Mallobaude. Alternatively, some modifcation to the Chivalry system where negative chivalry will align with Mallobaude. Its a tricky thing this, but it has so much potential if handled correctly.

Bastonne:

Faction Leader: Bohemond Beastslayer

New Units: Sons of Bretonnia, Ennar's Outlaws (Archer ROR), Hermit Knights + Hermit Lord & Hero Jasperre le Beau OR Calard d'Garamont

Describtion: This is the safe bet to go for if you don't want to suggest radical new changes to the Bretonnia like those that would/should come with Repanse or Mallobaude. Bohemond Beastslayer sits east of Alberic d'Bordeleaux, but not in direct contact with either the Fay or Leoncoeur, Bretonnia's foremost authority figures. Now what would Bastonne bring to Bretonnia? Basically nothing on its own. But if we pair Bastonne in an official DLC with Skaven Clan Moulder or Eshin, an interesting possibility opens up.

The Black Chasm. This is a giant hole in the ground fairly close to Castle Bastonne, which is home to a species of monsterly frog things called Chasm Spawn. These spawn hop out on occation and go on rampages across Bastonne. Plus, the Black Chasm is also a Skaven stronghold, being fought over by Clan Pestilens and Eshin through the servant Clans Flem and Moulder, respectively. So now, as well as the Massif Orcal, we could have a Skaven fortress like Skavenblight or Hell Pit in the middle of Bretonnia. And it would be up to Bohemond of Bastonne to fight against it.

Now for the expeditions!

The Knights of Origo:

Faction Leader: Sir John Tyreweld

AND/OR

Antoch:

Faction Leader: Pierre d'Antoch

New Units: Knights of Origo (Cav & Inf) and further Crusader themed units

Describtion: To be completely honest, I only know about the Knights of Origo from various mods the WH2 community has produced and they're the most fleshed out of the Crusader States, so if anyone has any objections to this pick, feel free to point it out. As for Antoch, its the biggest Bretonnian city outside of the homeland and it was founded at the conclusion of the Great Crusades against Araby. It serves in similar to Imperial Sudenburg, as an adventurer's port to the lands and seas beyond. Its ruler, Pierre d'Antoch took part in a raid against Lustrian city Huatl (which in WH2 is VC capital the Awakening) and took a magical Jade Staff with him. Magical... in the hands of Slann that is.

Now, in WH2 currently, Antoch is a minor settlement on the border of the Southlands. This is actually an inaccurate location. In reality, Antoch should be placed where Sudenburg is now and Sudenburg where Antoch is (but both should be ports of course). So for Antoch to be represented as accurately as it can be without any Arabyans to crusade against, there will need to be a restructuring in Araby and thereby, possibly pushing Sudenburg out of the ME map completely.

Phew lots of things to explore and talk about! What do you think guys?

TheWattman#7460

Next Topic:

The Dark Elves

In many way, the dark lands of Naggaroth are in direct opposite to the honourable Bretonnia. Also unlike Bretonnia, the Dark Elves currently enjoy 4 Lords to their roster. These are:

Malekith the Witch King, ruler of Naggarond and rightful king of all Elves
Hag Sorceress Morathi, the King's Mother in Quintex
Crone Hellebron of Har Ganeth, archrival of Morathi
Lokhir Fellheart, leader of the Blessed Dread corsairs in Chupayotl

In similar addition to their High Elf cousin, the Dark Elves currently have 3 Lords in their homelands and an expedition down south in Lustria. With only 2 spots left to fill in their ranks, it would be reasonable to assume that those spots would be filled by 1 homeland faction and 1 more expedition beyond. And this might very well be possible.

Factions/Units/Lords possible for addition:

In the Naggaroth homeland, we find 9 further DE factions waiting, which are: Bleak Holds, the Forgebound, Deadwood Sentinels, Drackla Coven, Ss'ildra Tor, Ghrond, Karond Kar, Clar Karond and Hag Graef. But in addition, we have the Blood Hall Coven in Lustria and the Scourge of Khaine in Ulthuan as expeditions. As I've done before, I've mentioned this in order of increasing likelyness of addition and also divided them into Unlikely and Likely components.

The Unlikely: Bleak Holds, the Forgebound, Deadwood Sentinels, Drackla Coven, Ss'ildra Tor, Blood Hall Coven, Ghrond and Scourge of Khaine:

Basically, all these factions are practically impossible to even consider being raised to playable status, since most of them are invented simply to fill up space in Naggaroth by CA. Ghrond might have been a candidate, but its lore-ruler, Morathi, was given a start in the ruins of Quintex instead. The Scourge of Khaine would probably be the ultimate option among these with the possibility of bringing in Tullaris Dreadbringer in an official capacity, but him being placed in direct conflict with Alarielle I see as highly unlikely, its just too powerful too close. So lets skip talking about these and jump right to the likely ones.

The Likely: Karond Kar, Clar Karond and Hag Graef:

These are the only DE factions left with any sort of major lore attached to them left. But just because they're all homeland factions, doesn't mean that they can't be modified into far away expeditions. 3 factions, 2 spots open. Lets jump in!

Karond Kar:

Faction Leader: Rakarth the Beastlord

New Units: Beastmaster or Black Ark Fleetmaster Lord, Creeping Dread (Black Ark Corsair ROR), Krakensides

Describtion: Karond Kar, the Tower of Despair. Now, in the state that WH2 is, Karond Kar has had its chances reduced by the fact that its true faction leader, Lokhir Felheart, is off down in Lustria doing his own thing. Its the Felheart family that rules Karond Kar, so Lokhir not being in Naggaroth certainly drops its chances. In Lokhir's place, I would place Rakarth the Beastlord, since Karond Kar is also the homebase of the Dark Elf Beastmasters, those who harness all sorts of wild creatures to their sinister wills.

With Lokhir gone, I basically see no other option for Karond Kar than Rakarth, but even then its a very slim chance. Add to the fact that Karond Kar is under siege by Alith Anar of Nagarythe and it drops even further. All in all, I see it most likely that Karond Kar will be looked over in favour of the following 2 factions to come.

Clar Karond:

Faction Leader: Anethra Helbane

New Units: Beastmaster Lord, Aeskhaine, Winterborn, Scourgerunner Chariot

Describtion: Either way with the Dark Elves, we're getting Beastmasters, since Clar Karond, the Tower of Doom, is also a major home for them. Clar Karond offers a DE start halfway between Malekith and Morathi in its city form, putting you in direct conflict with Tretch Craventail of Clan Rictus. However, since we most likely want another expedition for the Dark Elves, Clar Karond can be modified to do so. Its most famous resident Anethra Helbane, a powerful Hag Sorceress and matriarch of the Helbane Dynasty, is a former noblewoman of Nagarythe in Ulthuan, giving CA potential to replace the Scourge of Khaine in Ulthuan with Anethra Helbane of Clar Karond. Either through a vassal in Clar Karond or in Nagarythe, whichever way works best, Anethra Helbane leads the early charge of Dark Elf invasion of Ulthuan to claim Queenship of Nagarythe for herself. This puts her in direct conflict with nearby Alith Anar as well, who will be even more urged to come home and save his kingdom now.

This is the best chance to offer another DE start outside of Naggaroth, a direct clash between major Dark Elf and High Elf characters in an invasion of Ulthuan. Now over to the remaining last start in Naggaroth itself.

Hag Graef:

Faction Leader: Malus Darkblade, Tyrant of Hag Graef

New Units: Exaclty what comes with Clar Karond + Knights of Burning Dark (Cold One Knights ROR)

Describtion: In similar fashion to the Tomb Kings I covered, this is the big faction yet to be added. And everything in Hag Graef, the Black Crag, revolves around its leader. Malus Darkblade.The bastard son of the previous tyrant, Malus went on a trip to the Chaos Wastes to prove himself worthy of his father. There he found his weapon, the Warpsword of Khaine. He killed his father and took his place on the throne of Hag Graef. He hates everything and everyone. Nonetheless, he serves King Malekith with loyalty... for now.

Hag Graef might not be the most interesting of starting positions, directly south of Malekith, but he's one of the most major Dark Elf character's, so he's gonna come eventually. Whether as DLC or FLC alongside Clar Karond.

Draxynnic#3149

It's worth noting that at some point, the roles of Karond Kar and Clar Karond were flipped - Clar Karond used to be the main fleet port, and when Rakarth was current, Karond Kar was the Beastmasters hub. So I can see Rakarth being moved to Clar Karond.

Labria#2848

TheWattman said:

Draxynnic said:

Regarding the Tomb Kings:

I think either of those could work. Apophas I'm inclined to disregard as a possibility, since he's emphatically not even suited as a leader of units, let alone armies or a faction.

I think you might have sold Quatar short, though, since between Ramhotep and Sehenesmet, Quatar is well positioned to being the construct capital of the Tomb Kings. Granted, Quatar doesn't have its own section in the latest Tomb Kings book, but the Charnel Valley does, and Quatar is probably a large part of why the Charnel Valley is full of constructs.

Labria said:

I prefer Ramhotep for Numas faction. He is most interesting missing character from 8th army book. We don't have Necrotect Lord. Sehenesmet can be also unique hero for him. I think he is best option for next FLC/DLC.

Zandri is in same province with Khemri. I don't think Amanhotep will start here. Amanhotep is can easy start far from home. I think he can wait to game 3. Maybe even Amanhotep can have horda system.

You make valid points, perhaps I was too dismissive of Quatar. However to put Ramhotep in charge of Numas is a step too far, better just to seperate Quatar from Numas and form its own faction, at the expense of Zandri. I really do believe that Numas is coming due to its connection with coming WH3 with Imrathepis.

Whether its Numas or Quatar, both have to deal with the same enemies: Badland and Mountain Greenskins in the north, Necrarch Vampires down south, Queek Headtaker and of course unificationist Settra to the west

Numas and Quatar are in same province. Main city in province is better starting position. What connection have Numas with game 3? Sure, Quatar can be own faction, but I don't think it's necessarily.

Amanhotep should have own faction, He can start anywhere on coast in map 3.

Bretonnia have two very interesting potential start position. Coast of Araby and Bregonne. I think Repanse and Bohomond will start far from home with new expedition factions. Bastonne and Lyonesse are not very interesting start position.
If we want Mallobaude. Red Duke needs to by move to Aquitaine.

If we will get new Dark Elves LL in Naggaroth. Best choice is Rakarth in Clar Karond.
I don't think Malus will start in Hag Graef. Malus is perfect guy for expedition far from home. He can start almost anywhere on map.

Blood Hall Coven in West Lustria and Scourge of Khaine in West Ulthuan are very interesting start positions for Dark Elves. Scourge of Khaine can easy work with dynamic start positions.
If we ever get Kouran Blackhand and Tullaris Dreadbringer. I think they will start far from home. These two factions are perfect for them.

TheWattman#7460

Labria said:

Numas and Quatar are in same province. Main city in province is better starting position. What connection have Numas with game 3? Sure, Quatar can be own faction, but I don't think it's necessarily.

Amanhotep should have own faction, He can start anywhere on coast in map 3.

Bretonnia have two very interesting potential start position. Coast of Araby and Bregonne. I think Repanse and Bohomond will start far from home with new expedition factions. Bastonne and Lyonesse are not very interesting start position.
If we want Mallobaude. Red Duke needs to by move to Aquitaine.

If we will get new Dark Elves LL in Naggaroth. Best choice is Rakarth in Clar Karond.
I don't think Malus will start in Hag Graef. Malus is perfect guy for expedition far from home. He can start almost anywhere on map.

Blood Hall Coven in West Lustria and Scourge of Khaine in West Ulthuan are very interesting start positions for Dark Elves. Scourge of Khaine can easy work with dynamic start positions.
If we ever get Kouran Blackhand and Tullaris Dreadbringer. I think they will start far from home. These two factions are perfect for them.

1. Numas in game 3 through Imrathepis's expedition to the Mountains of Mourn.

2. I can see Anethra Helbane be put in charge of the Blood Hall Coven, that might be a way to get her in.

3. Kouran Darkhand I see as highly unlikely, since he's basically just the hero leading Malekith's bodyguards. Tullaris might just be left in the dust with this competition.

Labria#2848

TheWattman said:

Labria said:

Numas and Quatar are in same province. Main city in province is better starting position. What connection have Numas with game 3? Sure, Quatar can be own faction, but I don't think it's necessarily.

Amanhotep should have own faction, He can start anywhere on coast in map 3.

Bretonnia have two very interesting potential start position. Coast of Araby and Bregonne. I think Repanse and Bohomond will start far from home with new expedition factions. Bastonne and Lyonesse are not very interesting start position.
If we want Mallobaude. Red Duke needs to by move to Aquitaine.

If we will get new Dark Elves LL in Naggaroth. Best choice is Rakarth in Clar Karond.
I don't think Malus will start in Hag Graef. Malus is perfect guy for expedition far from home. He can start almost anywhere on map.

Blood Hall Coven in West Lustria and Scourge of Khaine in West Ulthuan are very interesting start positions for Dark Elves. Scourge of Khaine can easy work with dynamic start positions.
If we ever get Kouran Blackhand and Tullaris Dreadbringer. I think they will start far from home. These two factions are perfect for them.

1. Numas in game 3 through Imrathepis's expedition to the Mountains of Mourn.

2. I can see Anethra Helbane be put in charge of the Blood Hall Coven, that might be a way to get her in.

3. Kouran Darkhand I see as highly unlikely, since he's basically just the hero leading Malekith's bodyguards. Tullaris might just be left in the dust with this competition.

Anethra Helbane? He looks like generic wizard with name. Kouran and Tullaris are on Tiktaq'to level. They can go to any expedition/quest far from home. Perfect material for FLC.

TheWattman#7460

Labria said:

Anethra Helbane? He looks like generic wizard with name. Kouran and Tullaris are on Tiktaq'to level. They can go to any expedition/quest far from home. Perfect material for FLC.

Granted Tullaris and Kouran have potential, but I would rather see them fighting alongside Malekith and Hellebron at home than venture out on their own. But if the reasoning is to provide WH3 with a DE lord in addition to Lokhir, thenyou have a point in them. One reason I chose Anethra was to get a pretender to a HE realm and also to continue the theme of 1 male/1 female for the DEs. Choosing Anethra and Malus meant 3 male lords and 3 female ones, plus getting a 4th lord in Naggaroth, not involved in the dispute of Hellebron vs Morathi.

TheWattman#7460

Next Topic:

The Lizardmen and their role in Warhammer 3

From Naggaroth we journey south to Lustria. Actually, we don't, since the Lizardmen, as of Hunter & Beast, already have 6 Lords to choose from. Out of these, we see 2 Saurus and 2 Skink Commanders, a Kroxigor Warleader and a Slann to boss over them all. As far as WH2 is concerned, the Lizardmen are complete. However, this doesn't mean there won't be any new Lizardmen content to play with in WH3 and the Dark Lands. So as to avoid not talking about my favourite faction, I am going to jump straight into the future and theorize what the Lizardmen could be getting in the final step of this trilogy.

Note that Im not talking about playable factions here, but then again, if the Vampires have any hope of fitting in Neferatta and/or Nagash as playable characters in WH3, ME Lord limits are gonna have to be increased to 8, so here's hoping that happens.

Defenders of the Dragon Isles:

Faction Leader: Lord Ulha'up, Voyager of the Raindrops of Eternity

New Units: Feral Saurus, Skinks & Kroxigors, Coatls + Skink Oracle Lord with Troglodon Mount (Thunder Lizard)

Describtion: If you thought Lustria was wild, wait until you come to the Dragon Islands. This is the furthest outpost of the Lizardmen, but just like the Southlands in the lore, its lost with Mage-Priests of Lustria. In fact, these islands are lost to any Mage-Priest, as they were killed off long ago. Since then, without the guidance of the Slann, its Lizardmen have devolved into feral beasts just like the Bastiladons or Carnosaurs their Lustrian counterparts master. But there might still be hope. Lord Uhla'up is an explorer with a mission to commune the word of the Old Ones upon a corrupt and decadent world. In other words, he is a mad Slann on a personnal missionary voyage. He has lost contact with Lustria, where most Slann doubt he's even still alive.

Its not unreasonable to assume he could end up in the Dragon Isles and see it his mission to re-civilize its inhabitants. The Lizardmen roster would integrate feral versions of its core infantry and if playable, the player would need to research and build quite a bit to get access to standard units. Plus, this is the only way to get another Lizard update to add in missing units like Troglodons.

Draxynnic#3149

Ugh, the Skink Oracle lord meme...

Oracles on the tabletop were basically Priests that had a special bond with Troglodons instead of having magic. They're not character material.

If you need to squeeze a character in, Game 3 will probably come with flying lords or at least lords that have mechanics that resemble flying. So do the Coatl justice and put it in as a character so it gets its proper access to lores.

Heck, given that the fluff of the Dragon Isles is that they have no Slann, Coatl could be what they get instead of Slann.

Labria#2848

TheWattman said:

Labria said:

Anethra Helbane? He looks like generic wizard with name. Kouran and Tullaris are on Tiktaq'to level. They can go to any expedition/quest far from home. Perfect material for FLC.

Granted Tullaris and Kouran have potential, but I would rather see them fighting alongside Malekith and Hellebron at home than venture out on their own. But if the reasoning is to provide WH3 with a DE lord in addition to Lokhir, thenyou have a point in them. One reason I chose Anethra was to get a pretender to a HE realm and also to continue the theme of 1 male/1 female for the DEs. Choosing Anethra and Malus meant 3 male lords and 3 female ones, plus getting a 4th lord in Naggaroth, not involved in the dispute of Hellebron vs Morathi.

Dark Elves don't need one female character. They missing only interesting male characters: Malus, Tullaris, Kouran and Rakarth(6th edition). Shadowblade is better material for Legendary hero.

Dragon Isles is perfect area for new Lizardmen Legendary Lord in game 3. I think we will get Tetto'eko FLC or even lord pack with Troglodon, Coatl and maybe Tichi-Huichi's Raiders.

There is no limit of number of Legendary Lords.
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/d1oe0f/the_hunter_the_beast_ama_with_the_warhammer_ii/eztk87f/?context=3

Lizardmen still missing Tetto'eko, Oxyotl and Chakax.