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Could Lord Packs for existing DLC's be a thing?

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  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 4,999Registered Users
    ArneSo said:

    CA: No plans to make DLC for DLC!

    also CA: No plans for Araby!

    Some people: We will get Araby and DLC for DLC, CA just lied to us when they especially said that they don’t have plans for that.

    I‘m getting so tired of this...

    The only thing I remember is they said there's no such policy as "No DLC for DLC", just that they never did it out of principle.

    I'd also say that releasing DLC for a race that's from another game is functionally same as what I propose. You are getting content from a different release. Buying this DLC makes almost entirety of the Empire available, not just the new DLC stuff, to game 2 owners so you're effectively buying same content twice.

    So if it's "No DLC for DLC" yet reselling content is acceptable then they can resell some BM stuff alongside new BM stuff and thus avoid DLC for DLC because it doesn't require you to buy the other BM DLC to play it.

    Why exactly are people complaining? This is exactly what you wanted with crossovers!
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 1,981Registered Users
    You can’t compare crossovers with DLCs for DLCs!

    Let me try to explain it:

    Crossover includes:
    - 1 LL for game 2 race
    - 1 LL for game 1 race
    - New mechanics
    - New units for both
    - Price 9€

    Game 1 includes:
    - 5 races with 2 LLs each + Bretonnia
    - FLC LLs
    - Gigantic stand alone map
    - Mechanics worth a full price title
    - Price 60€

    So if you buy the crossover and don’t own game 1 you can play one game 2 LL and one empire LL.
    You can’t play as Dwarfs, you don’t get the old world map. You can’t play as Bretonnia, VC, GS and other Empire LLs.
    So you basically get like 5% content of game 1.
    CA doesn’t loose here, becaue if you wanna play mortal empires and all other things from game 1 you need to buy it.

    ______________________________________


    Now about DLC for DLC:

    Realm of the WE added:
    - A completely new race with 2 LL
    - Unique mechanics
    - Unique units
    - Mini campaign
    - Price 18€

    A LP with WE + X Race would add:
    - 1 LL for X race
    - 1 LL WE
    - New units for race X
    - New units for WE
    - New mechanics for race X
    - New mechanics for WE
    - Price 9€


    So when purchasing the LP with WE you would get 110% of what the actual WE DLC would give you but for half the price.
    Why should someone buy the WE campaign pack for 18€ when he could get an updated version of the same race with a LL + units for race X for 9€?

    CA would literally kill the WE campaign pack this way and there is no reason to do that.

    It doesn’t make sense from a business perspective and that’s still the most important factor for CA becaue that’s what they are in the end of the day. A business with the motivation to sell games for money.

    DLC for DLC would be awesome and I would insta pre order it because I own all DLCs. But only becaue it’s nice doesn’t mean it makes sense.



  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,267Registered Users
    ArneSo said:

    You can’t compare crossovers with DLCs for DLCs!

    Let me try to explain it:

    Crossover includes:
    - 1 LL for game 2 race
    - 1 LL for game 1 race
    - New mechanics
    - New units for both
    - Price 9€

    Game 1 includes:
    - 5 races with 2 LLs each + Bretonnia
    - FLC LLs
    - Gigantic stand alone map
    - Mechanics worth a full price title
    - Price 60€

    So if you buy the crossover and don’t own game 1 you can play one game 2 LL and one empire LL.
    You can’t play as Dwarfs, you don’t get the old world map. You can’t play as Bretonnia, VC, GS and other Empire LLs.
    So you basically get like 5% content of game 1.
    CA doesn’t loose here, becaue if you wanna play mortal empires and all other things from game 1 you need to buy it.

    ______________________________________


    Now about DLC for DLC:

    Realm of the WE added:
    - A completely new race with 2 LL
    - Unique mechanics
    - Unique units
    - Mini campaign
    - Price 18€

    A LP with WE + X Race would add:
    - 1 LL for X race
    - 1 LL WE
    - New units for race X
    - New units for WE
    - New mechanics for race X
    - New mechanics for WE
    - Price 9€


    So when purchasing the LP with WE you would get 110% of what the actual WE DLC would give you but for half the price.
    Why should someone buy the WE campaign pack for 18€ when he could get an updated version of the same race with a LL + units for race X for 9€?

    CA would literally kill the WE campaign pack this way and there is no reason to do that.

    It doesn’t make sense from a business perspective and that’s still the most important factor for CA becaue that’s what they are in the end of the day. A business with the motivation to sell games for money.

    DLC for DLC would be awesome and I would insta pre order it because I own all DLCs. But only becaue it’s nice doesn’t mean it makes sense.



    That doesn't change the fact that your saying that CA said there would be no DLC for DLC is incorrect (again, "no plans for X" and "no X" are completely different things).

    Also who said X-LPs for DLC races would contain the entire roster of the original DLC race?

    It seems odd that you make a distinction of core races with X-LPs needing game 1 to play on the ME map but forgetting the fact that the same is kinda true for BM, you will need game 1 to play them in ME, you will need the DLC as well to access their full LL complement as well as perhaps their full roster.

    I don't think your reasoning on this is nearly as ironclad as you seem to believe it is
  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 4,999Registered Users
    edited October 3
    ArneSo said:

    You can’t compare crossovers with DLCs for DLCs!

    Let me try to explain it:

    Crossover includes:
    - 1 LL for game 2 race
    - 1 LL for game 1 race
    - New mechanics
    - New units for both
    - Price 9€

    Game 1 includes:
    - 5 races with 2 LLs each + Bretonnia
    - FLC LLs
    - Gigantic stand alone map
    - Mechanics worth a full price title
    - Price 60€

    So if you buy the crossover and don’t own game 1 you can play one game 2 LL and one empire LL.
    You can’t play as Dwarfs, you don’t get the old world map. You can’t play as Bretonnia, VC, GS and other Empire LLs.
    So you basically get like 5% content of game 1.
    CA doesn’t loose here, becaue if you wanna play mortal empires and all other things from game 1 you need to buy it.

    ______________________________________


    Now about DLC for DLC:

    Realm of the WE added:
    - A completely new race with 2 LL
    - Unique mechanics
    - Unique units
    - Mini campaign
    - Price 18€

    A LP with WE + X Race would add:
    - 1 LL for X race
    - 1 LL WE
    - New units for race X
    - New units for WE
    - New mechanics for race X
    - New mechanics for WE
    - Price 9€


    So when purchasing the LP with WE you would get 110% of what the actual WE DLC would give you but for half the price.
    Why should someone buy the WE campaign pack for 18€ when he could get an updated version of the same race with a LL + units for race X for 9€?

    CA would literally kill the WE campaign pack this way and there is no reason to do that.

    It doesn’t make sense from a business perspective and that’s still the most important factor for CA becaue that’s what they are in the end of the day. A business with the motivation to sell games for money.

    DLC for DLC would be awesome and I would insta pre order it because I own all DLCs. But only becaue it’s nice doesn’t mean it makes sense.



    Then you haven't read my comments previously on hypothetical BM LP.
    Crossil said:

    Even better. Wulfhart would commit even greater devaluing than what I propose. However, Wulfhart limited access to Empire units in campaign is partially what I'm talking about, the Imperial supply systems. Now make this new DLC introduce Ghorgon, Jabberslythe and Preyton instead of some other high tier mainstream BM DLC(like maybe Minotaurs and Cygors, maybe others like Chaos Spawn) and you can effectively substitute it so that on its own game 2 DLC plays differently than mainstream BM thus making two DLCs that are roster AND mechanics wise somewhat distinct, thus maintaining the value of mainstream BM DLC. Even further valuing it if it gets a rework alongside this.

    You can play the Beastmen from that DLC without owning the Beastmen game 1 DLC. Therefore it isn't DLC for DLC.

    Note that Wulfhart plays differently to the Empire, thus these two DLCs can differ in both roster AND mechanics if CA were to release it, negating the idea that BM DLC would be completely devalued. 3 LLs, some missing units and the minicampaign plus more mechanics if CA were to make Old World Update that specifically focuses on main BM DLC.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,859Registered Users
    edited October 3
    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    I think it can be done so it isn't DLC for DLC, same how Empire is now playable. You release a lord pack with BM LL and you don't own BM DLC? Your LL has access to BM units but you don't have access to a part of the roster or other LLs. Thus it is a separate DLC that doesn't need the Beastmen DLC to play. Same as any other race. Make WE LL in Oreon's Camp have limited access and some own units. You don't need WE DLC to play thatLL.

    This is no different than Wulfhart. Empire is a race of a completely different game, you can now play Empire without that game. Same thing applies here.

    The can of worms is open. CA can just do whatever now that you people let them make content of one game available in the other. This is no different in principle.

    How can a DLC be for a DLC race without being for a DLC?

    The Empire is completely different to the BM. CA can give away the Empire without devaluing TWW1 significantly. They give away the BM then there's no point in buying the DLC.
    Yes there is, just like there's a point to buying game 1 even when you gave away that race(and others as well if crossovers continue) in a DLC.

    DLC is for game 2. Beastmen are still in their DLC and would get a rework that works just for them, some of their units aren't available in game 2 DLC and it has different mechanics from mainstream BM. All of this is exactly like how Wulfhart does it and Wulfhart also devalued game 1. But, aparently game 1 wasn't devalued by Wulfhart or other crossovers and neither will BM DLC be devalued either if we follow same logic. The principle doesn't change between these.

    It isn't DLC for DLC because you don't need BM DLC to play it. This nonsense about devaluing has been buried with Wulfhart. Just like game 1 had discounts so did BM have them so there's little devaluing to exist for one as it doesn't exist for the other. Or do you admit Wulfhart devalued game 1? In which case nothing changes as CA already did this.
    No it's not. Wulfhart gives you access to the entire Empire roster. Limiting it to part of the already limited BM roster weakens the argument for buying the LP while still devaluing the BM DLC.

    It's DLC for DLC because the BM are a DLC. If it's for BM it's for DLC regardless of how its done because the BM are a DLC. It can't be separated out like that. CA said they have no plans to do DLC for DLC, and guess what? BM are a DLC. They didn't say they have no plans to do DLC that requires DLC to play. This line of logic requires them to have been far more specific than they were. They simply said no plans for DLC for DLC. That means exactly what they said.

    CA hasn't discounted DLC's significantly. They discount game 1 for 75% off regularly. Game 1 also has all the rest of its content so there's still reason to buy it. An LP that gives away the BM roster makes the BM DLC worthless. It's a question of degrees, Wulfhart might on the margin slightly devalue TWW1. An LP for BM completely devalues them.
    Even better. Wulfhart would commit even greater devaluing than what I propose. However, Wulfhart limited access to Empire units in campaign is partially what I'm talking about, the Imperial supply systems. Now make this new DLC introduce Ghorgon, Jabberslythe and Preyton instead of some other high tier mainstream BM DLC(like maybe Minotaurs and Cygors, maybe others like Chaos Spawn) and you can effectively substitute it so that on its own game 2 DLC plays differently than mainstream BM thus making two DLCs that are roster AND mechanics wise somewhat distinct, thus maintaining the value of mainstream BM DLC. Even further valuing it if it gets a rework alongside this.

    You can play the Beastmen from that DLC without owning the Beastmen game 1 DLC. Therefore it isn't DLC for DLC.

    Also, they said they haven't rules out crossovers in the past, not just what you posted. They also haven't denied no DLC for DLC policy and what I propose gives more of a middle ground. Therefore the gate is open.
    Yeah, no. The Empire at best represents 1/4th the value of TWW1. Give away the BM roster and that gives away the entire value of the BM except for 3 LL's. Even with what you propose you're only excluding the BM's current terrible mechanics, and a couple units. At best leaving the BM DLC with 3 LL's and a couple units, still effectively valueless.

    The BM is a DLC. An LP for the BM would literally be a DLC for a DLC. There's no way around this. CA said they don't have plans to do DLC for DLC. They didn't say they don't have plans to do DLC for DLC where it's required to own the first DLC to play the second. Your logic requires CA to have said something it simply did not say. They said they have no plans to do DLC for DLC.

    Arguing that the BM are still candidates for an LP is like arguing Araby is still a candidate for a race pack. CA flat out said it's not happening.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Posts: 1,591Registered Users
    Since its unlikely to happen, the better way is to think how the DLC races who need content can get LP level content without DLC for DLC.
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 1,981Registered Users
    I really want WE and BM to get more stuff. Honestly I really love both races, but their only chance is another FLC.

    CA already gave 1LL and 1 unit to BM so they probably will get more along their Rework or at least when game 3 comes out.

    I’m sure CA will look at both races after the GS Rework.


  • Bonutz619Bonutz619 Posts: 1,018Registered Users
    ArneSo said:

    You can’t compare crossovers with DLCs for DLCs!

    Let me try to explain it:

    Crossover includes:
    - 1 LL for game 2 race
    - 1 LL for game 1 race
    - New mechanics
    - New units for both
    - Price 9€

    Game 1 includes:
    - 5 races with 2 LLs each + Bretonnia
    - FLC LLs
    - Gigantic stand alone map
    - Mechanics worth a full price title
    - Price 60€

    So if you buy the crossover and don’t own game 1 you can play one game 2 LL and one empire LL.
    You can’t play as Dwarfs, you don’t get the old world map. You can’t play as Bretonnia, VC, GS and other Empire LLs.
    So you basically get like 5% content of game 1.
    CA doesn’t loose here, becaue if you wanna play mortal empires and all other things from game 1 you need to buy it.

    ______________________________________


    Now about DLC for DLC:

    Realm of the WE added:
    - A completely new race with 2 LL
    - Unique mechanics
    - Unique units
    - Mini campaign
    - Price 18€

    A LP with WE + X Race would add:
    - 1 LL for X race
    - 1 LL WE
    - New units for race X
    - New units for WE
    - New mechanics for race X
    - New mechanics for WE
    - Price 9€


    So when purchasing the LP with WE you would get 110% of what the actual WE DLC would give you but for half the price.
    Why should someone buy the WE campaign pack for 18€ when he could get an updated version of the same race with a LL + units for race X for 9€?

    CA would literally kill the WE campaign pack this way and there is no reason to do that.

    It doesn’t make sense from a business perspective and that’s still the most important factor for CA becaue that’s what they are in the end of the day. A business with the motivation to sell games for money.

    DLC for DLC would be awesome and I would insta pre order it because I own all DLCs. But only becaue it’s nice doesn’t mean it makes sense.



    But you still wouldn’t get access to Orion and Durthu for the WE or their starting locations in the Old World for Mortal Empires. That alone still makes the campaign pack viable.
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 1,981Registered Users
    So 18€ for only 2 LLs with a smaller roster?

    That would be just a huge ripoff and furthermore would it be unfair for those who bought the original DLC back in the day.

    Even if you say it’s not a problem and all, CA said they have no plans for that so it is unnecessary to talk about it. It won’t happen. Period. DLC for DLC is on one level with Ind, Nippon and Araby

    Yes their plans may change one day, but probably not.
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