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The elephant in the room - Impossible matchups

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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,757Registered Users

    Emp vs dwarfs is Emp favoured after this patch due to black lions alone.

    I don't see that at all. It's out ranged by dwarf arty, which is also a good pick against emp calvary and greatswords.

    It may be useful but it is an exaggeration to say it will turn the match up around at all.
    Its really not hard to shut down dwarf cannons with empire ones+fireage + markus and after that black lions have a field day demolishing all of dwarf roster.

    You might be interested in checking out my empire vs dwarf games vs tank who said the same thing as you.

    Black lions do have a massive impact on this match up because if you take care of dwarf cannons they alone can kill the rest of dwarven ranged units.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,430Registered Users

    Emp vs dwarfs is Emp favoured after this patch due to black lions alone.

    I don't see that at all. It's out ranged by dwarf arty, which is also a good pick against emp calvary and greatswords.

    It may be useful but it is an exaggeration to say it will turn the match up around at all.
    Its really not hard to shut down dwarf cannons with empire ones+fireage + markus and after that black lions have a field day demolishing all of dwarf roster.

    You might be interested in checking out my empire vs dwarf games vs tank who said the same thing as you.

    Black lions do have a massive impact on this match up because if you take care of dwarf cannons they alone can kill the rest of dwarven ranged units.
    But fortunately dwarfs now have “OP wrath and ruin” so who would win, Lotus vs Lotus with two OP units? :)

    Crafty players on ladder have had strong kitey armies vs empire since forever. Obviously it’s gotten stronger but dwarfs still have the tools if they prepare properly. Overall I think once they nerf Markus it’ll be in a nice spot.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,757Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    Emp vs dwarfs is Emp favoured after this patch due to black lions alone.

    I don't see that at all. It's out ranged by dwarf arty, which is also a good pick against emp calvary and greatswords.

    It may be useful but it is an exaggeration to say it will turn the match up around at all.
    Its really not hard to shut down dwarf cannons with empire ones+fireage + markus and after that black lions have a field day demolishing all of dwarf roster.

    You might be interested in checking out my empire vs dwarf games vs tank who said the same thing as you.

    Black lions do have a massive impact on this match up because if you take care of dwarf cannons they alone can kill the rest of dwarven ranged units.
    But fortunately dwarfs now have “OP wrath and ruin” so who would win, Lotus vs Lotus with two OP units? :)

    Crafty players on ladder have had strong kitey armies vs empire since forever. Obviously it’s gotten stronger but dwarfs still have the tools if they prepare properly. Overall I think once they nerf Markus it’ll be in a nice spot.
    Well black lions and markus are most Definitely more OP than current W&R theres no denying that, fortunately for Black lions they got 250m range.

    But yes i do think Markus is big part of the reason why Empire can beat dwarfs now and allow black lions to dominate.
  • nonentitynonentity Posts: 176Registered Users
    Emp dictate the pace of the game and have a variety of builds whereas dawi is very predictable. You can go mass cannon build with fireball/spirit leach to win the artillery duel, you can go full rush with greatswords and manticore summons, you can even go stank/luminark/black lion kite now even though its very mico intensive. A well-rounded Dawi build can't effectively counter all those options -- I have seen Tutorial's Emp crush top Dawi players so its far from being an impossible matchup.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,430Registered Users
    nonentity said:

    Emp dictate the pace of the game and have a variety of builds whereas dawi is very predictable. You can go mass cannon build with fireball/spirit leach to win the artillery duel, you can go full rush with greatswords and manticore summons, you can even go stank/luminark/black lion kite now even though its very mico intensive. A well-rounded Dawi build can't effectively counter all those options -- I have seen Tutorial's Emp crush top Dawi players so its far from being an impossible matchup.

    Dawi do need a solid build and plan. But they absolutely can counter those diverse empire builds.
  • WunderKatzeWunderKatze Posts: 219Registered Users
    edited October 8
    nonentity said:

    Emp dictate the pace of the game and have a variety of builds whereas dawi is very predictable. You can go mass cannon build with fireball/spirit leach to win the artillery duel, you can go full rush with greatswords and manticore summons, you can even go stank/luminark/black lion kite now even though its very mico intensive. A well-rounded Dawi build can't effectively counter all those options -- I have seen Tutorial's Emp crush top Dawi players so its far from being an impossible matchup.

    I don't agree. The man issue is basically none of the empires options are cost effective except black lions, Markus and gelt. And arty if it doesn't get countered, that's a common mistake I win from.

    Greatswords are defeated by a cheaper amount of dwarf infantry, emp cannons are defeated by cheaper amount of dwarf cannon. Empire missiles and skirmishers are easily fended off by dwarf missiles. Empire calvary on the expensive side is vunerable to Arty and gunners and on the cheap side is low in AP and can't push through dwarf lines.

    The only way I really win is if the dwarves take too few Arty or too much.

    Too few and I can force them to attack, too much and I can rush them.

    The match up is all about dwarf mistakes.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,430Registered Users
    edited October 9

    Emp vs dwarfs is Emp favoured after this patch due to black lions alone.

    I don't see that at all. It's out ranged by dwarf arty, which is also a good pick against emp calvary and greatswords.

    It may be useful but it is an exaggeration to say it will turn the match up around at all.
    Its really not hard to shut down dwarf cannons with empire ones+fireage + markus and after that black lions have a field day demolishing all of dwarf roster.

    You might be interested in checking out my empire vs dwarf games vs tank who said the same thing as you.

    Black lions do have a massive impact on this match up because if you take care of dwarf cannons they alone can kill the rest of dwarven ranged units.
    Posted a good example of dwarfs beating empire with this build on discord... well, I was way ahead but couldn't win it in 20 minutes. But same exact build and some dude pretty high on the ladder.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,430Registered Users
    but i agree the black lions DPS or accuracy could use a bit of a nerf. They should be able to do alot of damage if left alive but not quite so fast.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,757Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    Emp vs dwarfs is Emp favoured after this patch due to black lions alone.

    I don't see that at all. It's out ranged by dwarf arty, which is also a good pick against emp calvary and greatswords.

    It may be useful but it is an exaggeration to say it will turn the match up around at all.
    Its really not hard to shut down dwarf cannons with empire ones+fireage + markus and after that black lions have a field day demolishing all of dwarf roster.

    You might be interested in checking out my empire vs dwarf games vs tank who said the same thing as you.

    Black lions do have a massive impact on this match up because if you take care of dwarf cannons they alone can kill the rest of dwarven ranged units.
    Posted a good example of dwarfs beating empire with this build on discord... well, I was way ahead but couldn't win it in 20 minutes. But same exact build and some dude pretty high on the ladder.
    I'm sorry but thats a horrible example of how to use a black lions.

    He basically just gave you his black lion for no reason what so ever, not to mention its one of the worst maps for him due to terrain cover and small size.

    Thats lord grinder BTW, his build was fine but thats not how to use it, why the heck would any competent player walk black lions who have 250m range 200m ahead of his army into 4 gyros?
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,430Registered Users
    edited October 9

    eumaies said:

    Emp vs dwarfs is Emp favoured after this patch due to black lions alone.

    I don't see that at all. It's out ranged by dwarf arty, which is also a good pick against emp calvary and greatswords.

    It may be useful but it is an exaggeration to say it will turn the match up around at all.
    Its really not hard to shut down dwarf cannons with empire ones+fireage + markus and after that black lions have a field day demolishing all of dwarf roster.

    You might be interested in checking out my empire vs dwarf games vs tank who said the same thing as you.

    Black lions do have a massive impact on this match up because if you take care of dwarf cannons they alone can kill the rest of dwarven ranged units.
    Posted a good example of dwarfs beating empire with this build on discord... well, I was way ahead but couldn't win it in 20 minutes. But same exact build and some dude pretty high on the ladder.
    I'm sorry but thats a horrible example of how to use a black lions.

    He basically just gave you his black lion for no reason what so ever, not to mention its one of the worst maps for him due to terrain cover and small size.

    Thats lord grinder BTW, his build was fine but thats not how to use it, why the heck would any competent player walk black lions who have 250m range 200m ahead of his army into 4 gyros?
    Fair enough, was a fortunate trap. I figured I’d gamble on the gyros on that map and it worked out. Would’ve been hard to pull him out of his shell if he was more careful. Probably he was overconfident with lurking Markus and just wanted to lure me into trouble.

    Map made it tricky for dwarfs as well though.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,757Registered Users
    I think it be better if we play it so i can show you what i mean, ill take the same army few times in a row won't change it, you're welcome to adjust yours. (by same i mean the one i usually take not grinders army).
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,430Registered Users
    edited October 9

    I think it be better if we play it so i can show you what i mean, ill take the same army few times in a row won't change it, you're welcome to adjust yours. (by same i mean the one i usually take not grinders army).

    No need, we can just share notes. I presume you just go over the top with cannons or fireball is sufficient to snipe them? Else four cannons and rangers is a very safe dawi build vs empire.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,757Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    I think it be better if we play it so i can show you what i mean, ill take the same army few times in a row won't change it, you're welcome to adjust yours. (by same i mean the one i usually take not grinders army).

    No need, we can just share notes. I presume you just go over the top with cannons or fireball is sufficient to snipe them? Else four cannons and rangers is a very safe dawi build vs empire.
    well you're army makes cannon damage nullified which should be good vs empire, unless you out your gyros in range which i doubt you would, but fire caster can fly and scout any stalk units plus fireball them, meanhwile markus is either trying to pick gyros off or lord. Once Stalk units get spoted black lions can have a field day on them.

    My army is a bit different than his.

    I got markus, fire caster
    Black lions
    2 cannons.
    4 archers
    4 spearmen
    3 greatswords
    2 hangunners

    Or something close to that.

    For 350g archers are a massive pain in the ass, spearmen are only there as roadbloacks/ unit used to engage missile units so they cant shoot.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,430Registered Users
    edited October 9
    Sure what but vs a four cannon build, do you have a particular technique that you feel snipes them reliably with that build? I feel like four cannons is a pretty safe pick Vs empire.

    And I agree Markus and lions aside, the basic archers are the best thing that’s happened for empire in this matchup in terms of regular units.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,757Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    Sure what but vs a four cannon build, do you have a particular technique that you feel snipes them reliably with that build? I feel like four cannons is a pretty safe pick Vs empire.

    And I agree Markus and lions aside, the basic archers are the best thing that’s happened for empire in this matchup in terms of regular units.

    It would come down to tournament rules or not, in tournament rules i would snipe 1 cannon with markus and fireball, so it would be 3 cannons vs 2 of empire, it would mean just keeping black lions back unit i manage to compromise the cannons. IF QB rules i would happy use 60 WOM to snipe the cannons with fireball and markus before moving in, but lets ignore the abusive ways since thats not really a tell of balance, so use the first example. I do think markus allows black lions to perform better than they would in this specific match-up, because he can kill cannons from quite a long range. I did play few times vs 3 and 4 cannons builds, what i found was basically not using the black lion for first 5 to 7 min of the game, keep it out of range, and with 15 units there get onto the cannons, ofcourse im still fireballing you int he meantime just i'm allowing you to deal damage back, its likely that your cannons would kill my cannons and do some decent dmg to some of my units, but once it comes down to shutting them down, once they are down and black lions are still alive they can easily get 250+ to 400kills vs dwarfs.

    And yeah the basic archers are totally underestimated in this match-up for 350g they trade well into Dwarf missiles and require dwarf focus. The ROR one is nice also.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,430Registered Users
    Yeah, and quarrelers style units got a bit slower in trading Vs low armour which makes it more feasible as well to counter skirmish.

    Yeah fireball sniping as described is an oldie but a goodie in the matchup. I think some good perimeter screening work and the long range of MWR help to make that trickier though.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,757Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    Yeah, and quarrelers style units got a bit slower in trading Vs low armour which makes it more feasible as well to counter skirmish.

    Yeah fireball sniping as described is an oldie but a goodie in the matchup. I think some good perimeter screening work and the long range of MWR help to make that trickier though.

    If you expect fireball sniping there are great counter, such as runelord on anvil with Magic resists it means 2 fireballs per cannon not 1, but the issue is that if you prepare forfireball you might suffer vs more agressive army, and he isthan large so markus snipes him hard with basic shots.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,237Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    This game is too well balanced to have impossible match-ups. The worst match-ups currently are 60-40 I'd say and the last win rate data support this, for what they're worth. That still amounts to a 50% higher winrate though, so it's very substantial.

    Very bad match-ups I'd say are:
    - Bretonnia, WE and Lizardmen vs Dwarfs (Empire struggles too without arguably cheesy armies)
    - Chaos and Beastmen vs VC (can't get through the blob)
    - Lizardmen vs Skaven (can't protect your lord)
    - TK vs Chaos (no cost-effective answers to halberds and shaggoths)
    - DE vs Vampirates (unless the opponent doesn't know about shades)
    - VC vs any Elves (strongly determined by army selection with unfavorable odds)

    TK vs Chaos?

    I would strongly argue that one is in TK favour, not the other way around.
    What's your secret? I would say that's one of the harder matchups for TK.
    You have infantry that doesn't rout. You have very long range, highly accurate AP missiles. Nehekhara Horsemen and Skeleton Horsemen Archers nullify Marauder Cav. You have access to cheap and highly effective terror monster (scorpions), and none of Chaos infantry is immune to psychology.

    Chaos does have an advantage in SEM department, due to Shaggoths, but even that is relatively small. Support from Settra or Necrotect and that fight will swing in favour of Necrosphinxes.

    I don't see where Chaos can actually push for an advantage. Sure Chaos will win bare bones infantry fight, but bullying slow infantry is never a huge issue.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,430Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    This game is too well balanced to have impossible match-ups. The worst match-ups currently are 60-40 I'd say and the last win rate data support this, for what they're worth. That still amounts to a 50% higher winrate though, so it's very substantial.

    Very bad match-ups I'd say are:
    - Bretonnia, WE and Lizardmen vs Dwarfs (Empire struggles too without arguably cheesy armies)
    - Chaos and Beastmen vs VC (can't get through the blob)
    - Lizardmen vs Skaven (can't protect your lord)
    - TK vs Chaos (no cost-effective answers to halberds and shaggoths)
    - DE vs Vampirates (unless the opponent doesn't know about shades)
    - VC vs any Elves (strongly determined by army selection with unfavorable odds)

    TK vs Chaos?

    I would strongly argue that one is in TK favour, not the other way around.
    What's your secret? I would say that's one of the harder matchups for TK.
    You have infantry that doesn't rout. You have very long range, highly accurate AP missiles. Nehekhara Horsemen and Skeleton Horsemen Archers nullify Marauder Cav. You have access to cheap and highly effective terror monster (scorpions), and none of Chaos infantry is immune to psychology.

    Chaos does have an advantage in SEM department, due to Shaggoths, but even that is relatively small. Support from Settra or Necrotect and that fight will swing in favour of Necrosphinxes.

    I don't see where Chaos can actually push for an advantage. Sure Chaos will win bare bones infantry fight, but bullying slow infantry is never a huge issue.
    Well, your infantry doesn't have to rout because a fire spell will simply delete it. Meanwhile, the AP missiles don't do anything to infantry. So fundamentally you will be facing armoured halbard units and even scorpions don't do that job. If you shell out for a warsphinx your necrosphinx is gonna be pretty outgunned. Healing into a losing fight is not a particularly useful application of healing.

    I think there are builds, like bowshabti heavy or artillery builds that can do some good work, but i don't think there's any easy path. Maurader horsemen probably don't make sense from the chaos side and aren't necessary - just take armour and ignore the pesky horse archers and/or make them play some cat and mouse with hounds. At the end of the day nothing really counters your heavy infantry.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,237Registered Users
    As Chaos you can not afford to take entire super elite army, you can not afford Chosen + Shaggoths.

    Simply don't blob and don't give a line fight and burning head suddenly is much less of a problem. If he burns a few skeletons, who cares.

    Bowshabti definitely do stuff to infantry.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,430Registered Users

    As Chaos you can not afford to take entire super elite army, you can not afford Chosen + Shaggoths.

    Simply don't blob and don't give a line fight and burning head suddenly is much less of a problem. If he burns a few skeletons, who cares.

    Bowshabti definitely do stuff to infantry.

    skeleton don't last very long. You only have to burn the tomb guard and one spell per 750+ point unit is just fine.

    And no, bowshabti are not cost effective vs basic chaos warriors with halbards, which already outclass every TK infantry. They aren't even really cost effective vs chosen.
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