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Me Being Salty... DId I get abused or did I misplay?

WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 637Registered Users
For some reason, whenever I play against what I consider an abusive build/playstyle, it always just happens to be HE.... ugghhh

I played with my main which is GS with kind of a random build:

Gobbo Shaman as lord
big boss on foot
3 Savage orcs
1 Savage Orc Big uns
2 goblins
eight peak loonies
Queen
2 night gobbo archers
2 doom divers
1 spider riders
1 nasty skulker

My opponent brought
Allariel
2 dragons
3 phoenix guard one of which was ROR (which he camped in corner)
4 ellyrian reavers, placed 1 in each corner of the map.

He camped in the corners with all his land units and kept circling my army with allariel and dragons, using breaths, and that spell that delays waaggh and does damage on my lord

Through a combo of vindictive glare + archers + doom divers, Allariel took a lot of damage, as well as his dragons. However, he Star of Averlorned everything back to almost full health.
In the process, I lost both doom divers and my lord was almost dead.

Then he just sat there with his dragons and phoenix guard in the corner.

I was super frustrated at this point. I could have taken a draw I suppose. But I really wanted to punish him.
So I moved towards the corner and eventually lost in a close fight.

I have a feeling that had I been close to victory, he would have just draw kitted me anyways as I had no way to catch the reavers + flying units.

Do you guys think his build / playstyle was abusive or just some good hit and run tactics and I shouldn't be salty?

I am thinking that I could have protected my doom divers betters, but if I bunched my units on the doom divers, the breath attacks would have been devastating.




Comments

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,587Registered Users
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 637Registered Users

    clearly he was being abusive.

    That is what I thought as well. However, I think that it made my angry and I could have at least not lost if I had thought things through.

    Like I could have used vindictive glare to kill allarielle from range. However, I kept overcasting it and basically killed off my own lord this way (very dumb).

    Also, do you think there is a way to defend the DD from 2 dragons + allairelle with the army I had? Or did I misplay that?

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,587Registered Users

    clearly he was being abusive.

    That is what I thought as well. However, I think that it made my angry and I could have at least not lost if I had thought things through.

    Like I could have used vindictive glare to kill allarielle from range. However, I kept overcasting it and basically killed off my own lord this way (very dumb).

    Also, do you think there is a way to defend the DD from 2 dragons + allairelle with the army I had? Or did I misplay that?

    Theres always ways to win it, i do feel your army can be improved in general vs HE's, ignoring the fact that he was abusive.
  • BjornNorlinderBjornNorlinder Posts: 26Registered Users
    he was obviously abusive but what can u do that's why tournies have rules. if u really cared about ur losses/wins then u should have wasted the time. Otherwise, just test ur luck and move on.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,562Registered Users
    Corner camping is always bad style, but how did he kill your doomdivers?
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 637Registered Users

    Corner camping is always bad style, but how did he kill your doomdivers?

    With his dragons + Alarielle. I had some nasty skulkers on top of them and most of my units in close proximity. Which was a big mistake because 2 breath attacks pretty much evaporated the nasty skulkers and did a lot of damage to the DDs as well. The nasty skulkers broke off before the dragons landed and before I could use smoke bomb.

    the dragons and Allariele took some damage from archers and the DDs on the approach and then the dragons swooped in to finish the DD's of. Allarille mostly took damage from vindictive glare. But she gave it right back to my lord with vault's unmaking.

    I had a lot of troops nearby so I did collapse on the dragons and Allarile. They took a ton of damage, Alarielle even broke with like 1.4k hp left I think. I even hit her with a vindictive glare as she was fleeing and she was down to like 750 hp. But she flew off and so did the dragons. She then rallied. Because of Vault's I could not use Waaagh during this crucial engagement. She basically Star of Avelrorned herself and both dragons to pretty much full health.

    I think the issues was I had no mass really to stop the dragons. The Queen was there but she can only block 1 direction.

    If I had been less angry, I would have approached the corner more cautiously after that big engagement with the drgaons. and used vindictive glare to kill alarielle. As she coudl not really respond. But I was so angry I just overcasted the vindictve glare and my lord went "pooooooof".

    As Lotus pointed out, my army wasn't the best against HE.

    But thing is I was just mixing it up and having fun on ladder so wasn't really thinking about making my army super compettive.


  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,319Registered Users
    Yeah, it's just ladder. Sometimes better use of your time to just quit at the start and find another game. I prefer to think of it as being out-picked, though. You can either play QB knowing you might have to quit early now and again to not waste time playing against extreme builds or you can enjoy the challenge of trying to prepare for extreme builds. That can be satisfying as well. Either way you're in charge of your time.
  • ystyst Posts: 5,920Registered Users
    edited October 9
    U let me took too much control, also its a bit harsh, to be fair im busy microing my dragons so it kinda looked like i parked my phoenix guards. I mean isnt that how its suppose to play out anyway? Surely im entitled to use all my breaths first. Its just one of my anti builds. I thought u counterpicked my elf with orks so.....i picked a counter counter build

    If u remove 1 biguns and use those funds to buy gob shaman and 2 wolf archers it wouldve taken me much much longer to control the situation. I suppose next time i should just charge forward, it is still a $4k elite inf block
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,562Registered Users
    If you're playing Yst then expect all the cheese. He's not alone tho, but yeah.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 637Registered Users

    If you're playing Yst then expect all the cheese. He's not alone tho, but yeah.

    Ha Ha he is just trolling.

    I thought about this and I think one of the reasons this kind of strategy works is the Star of Averlorn.

    Because you can basically fight with dragons and then when they are almost dead just heal them back up to full health.

    Maybe if star worked differently (say much wider area of effect but less healing on SE's) This type of strategy would not be viable, while still not nerfing it overall
  • ystyst Posts: 5,920Registered Users
    edited October 9

    If you're playing Yst then expect all the cheese. He's not alone tho, but yeah.

    Heh thanks for the compliment, sometimes ppl just get jelly dunno why.

    Not to mention its helf duh

    Spent
    $4450 on inf
    $2200 on cav
    $3400 on dragons

    Cheese lol... that is far more balance than some ppl spending $9k on cav alone tbh
    Post edited by yst on
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,562Registered Users

    If you're playing Yst then expect all the cheese. He's not alone tho, but yeah.

    Ha Ha he is just trolling.

    I thought about this and I think one of the reasons this kind of strategy works is the Star of Averlorn.

    Because you can basically fight with dragons and then when they are almost dead just heal them back up to full health.

    Maybe if star worked differently (say much wider area of effect but less healing on SE's) This type of strategy would not be viable, while still not nerfing it overall
    Maybe, regardless when I played him last on ladder (long time ago) he brought the 9 model cheese army, and there's a few screens in the name and shame channel where he draw-kites too... so that's one person I have no reason to play again.

    As for the build, well, it used to be a cheese thing you could do vs GS, but after VG got buffed, archers got more AP and doomdivers got buffed I don't know how good it is. I never play such builds based on corner camping.

    Without seeing your game I'd say you'd be in OK shape if you had longer range archers, some more armored infantry, maybe some defensive spider riders for mass, and unequipped your pults/dodge when he was using breaths.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 637Registered Users
    Tell me more about this name and shame channel.

    Can I submit cheese builds / tactics I played against?
  • ystyst Posts: 5,920Registered Users
    Poor guy, u kinda need to confirm and validify such claim first before accusing ppl of nonsense.

    9 models is stupid, tedious, energy draining, wtf would i ever use something so boring lol.

    And btw wojm make sure u name me on there as i gladly lay claim on my build. And btw i did not put 1 reaver each corner, its 2x reavers on 2x corner.

    Ps. Disposable dunno whom u played but kinda honoured u think of me. I knew we r one of heart.
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  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 637Registered Users
    @yst you are right! it is 2 reavers in 2 corners, not 1 in each!

    So it was you....

    Why would you play in such an abusive way? Corner camping and then waiting to draw kite if losing?

    The build itself you had was actually bad and had I not lost my cool (my dumb mistake) and you did not corner camp and aim to draw / draw kite me but played to win, I am very certain I could have won, despite just goofing around on QB and having a sub-optimal build.

    Allarielle was down to like 750 hp, you got off your star of avelorn off at the last moment.

    I usually disagreed with you and kind of assumed you were sometimes trolling on here in the balance section of the forum, but also assumed that you might be a competent Skaven player who just has a biased opinion and like to troll for fun.

    But now I see you also troll and abuse by corner camping and wanting to draw kite on QB.

    Why would anyone take anything you say about balance seriously?



  • ystyst Posts: 5,920Registered Users
    edited October 9
    Its mostly up to interpretations tbh, I mean i see no point sending guards to their doom getting slammed by suicidal goblins. After those 2 threats been nuetralised its just about wrapping up the game.

    Those $4200 can be 3 guards
    or 3 spears + 3 lions
    or 6 seaguards
    or 3 swordmasters

    doesnt really matter, end result would be melee engagement, dragon charge, wiped out
    doesnt matter what i do with the reavers either, I dont need them in the fight at all, there is no chance those guards would lose the melee fight
    u could technically try draw kite and thats when u gonna see me move those reavers

    Like I said open to interpretations, ive said so again and again dragons r op af. Allarial have been op to the frikking core, pretty sure i made that point again and again and again. Ya well everyone agrees shes fine so thats that. And they said guards r weak too, like what the zog i used an entire army of weaklings and ppl still troll about it(not u, since i dont even know its u anyway). Go ask green lol pretty sure hes firm on dragons = weak. guards = weak . allariel = balance.

    also assumed that you might be a competent Skaven player

    Im not and I dont usually touch the factions on my easy farm list. Skaven is a lot of work and generally just not strong enough imo

    Take what u want from the match tbh. I got nothing against u on that game since its just a random on quickmatch. If u didnt post it here I wouldnt have known its u anyway. U can think of it as abusive or misplayed on ur part. Or both abusive and misplayed. End of the day that player is me and Ive given reasons about my moves.
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  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 637Registered Users
    yst said:

    Its mostly up to interpretations tbh, I mean i see no point sending guards to their doom getting slammed by suicidal goblins. After those 2 threats been nuetralised its just about wrapping up the game.

    Those $4200 can be 3 guards
    or 3 spears + 3 lions
    or 6 seaguards
    or 3 swordmasters

    doesnt really matter, end result would be melee engagement, dragon charge, wiped out
    doesnt matter what i do with the reavers either, I dont need them in the fight at all, there is no chance those guards would lose the melee fight
    u could technically try draw kite and thats when u gonna see me move those reavers

    Like I said open to interpretations, ive said so again and again dragons r op af. Allarial have been op to the frikking core, pretty sure i made that point again and again and again. Ya well everyone agrees shes fine so thats that. And they said guards r weak too, like what the zog i used an entire army of weaklings and ppl still troll about it(not u, since i dont even know its u anyway). Go ask green lol pretty sure hes firm on dragons = weak. guards = weak . allariel = balance.

    also assumed that you might be a competent Skaven player

    Im not and I dont usually touch the factions on my easy farm list. Skaven is a lot of work and generally just not strong enough imo

    Take what u want from the match tbh. I got nothing against u on that game since its just a random on quickmatch. If u didnt post it here I wouldnt have known its u anyway. U can think of it as abusive or misplayed on ur part. Or both abusive and misplayed. End of the day that player is me and Ive given reasons about my moves.
    I have nothing against your build and I thought i did misplay it, so maybe I am more mad at myself than you LOL.

    TBH I actually thought your build was pretty bad since you had no answer to vindictive glare. If I had had not miscast stupidly with my gobbo big boss I could have super easily sniped your Allarielle and you could do nothing about it, camping in the corner.

    But what I did not like is your fleeing with your PG to the corner right at the start of battle. If you waited for me with your PG somewhere where I had a chance to flank you, I would not even complain and would engage you, despite the fact that in any tournament what you did was illegal (ie you made no attempt to engage after killing my DD with dragons + allarielle).

    Camping in corner is against spirit of the game IMO because the only way to engage you would be to frontally attack PG. the use of arbitrary white boundary lines to protect your flanks is unsportmen like.

    Everyone has fun in different ways.

    If that kind of playstyle is fun for you, then whatever.

    I just wish CA does something about corner camping and draw kiting.



  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,562Registered Users

    I think I need to grow a thicker skin.

    Add me on steam, Lobby games are better for most part if you find an opponent you like to play. :smile: I'll PM you my steam profile.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 637Registered Users

    I think I need to grow a thicker skin.

    Add me on steam, Lobby games are better for most part if you find an opponent you like to play. :smile: I'll PM you my steam profile.
    Sounds good
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,266Registered Users
    edited October 9
    Gonna be honest I don't think there was anything inherently wrong with how the HE player played. The attacking rules never really made sense to me in the WHC, I prefer the Korean variation where you get 10 minutes to do whatever you want AND THEN the attacking rules apply. IF need be extend match length to 25-30 minutes so you still get a full 20 minutes of attacking rules applying. Drawkiting is bs but we have no evidence that it would have occurred. Actually, the corner camping is a bit lame, that is map abuse imo.

    But as a general point, the rosters in this game are different and play differently. Why should a Wood Elf player who fields one of the most elite archers in the Old World on top of a great eagle not be able to shoot the lord of the Greenskin player to death? Even in lore, killing the Warboss leading the Waaagh was widely known to be the best way to stop the Greentide. Makes no sense to me that Wood Elves should have to charge their small elite and dying race into the endless Greenskin hordes.

    Ditto with High Elves. We have a very small Elite army (and you could easily catch the Phoenix Guard), lead by the Everqueen and 2 dragons to try and stop a brutal waagh. Tactically, is Alarielle such a dunce that she would send her elite Phoenix Guard to be slaughtered by some tweaking goblins launched from a catapult? Or would she use her balling dragon to bully the Greenskins before they engage? Go watch Game of Thrones last episode where they take King's Landing, Dynareas was tearing **** up with that dragon before she sent in her forces because it made sense.

    More concretely your build needs work. I know the talk around here is that the Queen is so op and crushes HE, but it can also be a bit of a trap unit because it is very expensive and won't help you hold down many units. You can't win the cav fight, and need to always be prepared for dragons/phoenixes as well as the possibility that the HE player will bring bolt throwers to snipe your Doom Diver. (1 Bolt Thrower will comfortably snipe 1 Doom diver). Imo you need 2 magic missiles in this match up, be they gaze of mork & vindictive glare, 2 VG or 2 Gaze of Mork. Both VG & GoM are the exact same spell when cast normally, but VG overcast has 10 missiles vs 5, while Gaze of Mork overcast has 400 range vs 250. So decide if you want volume damage or to be able to harass at longer ranges. As a rule you always need 1 VG though at least.

    You also need more cav to pin stuff down and protect against cavalry, as well as skirmish cav to harass. Goblin wolf archers are dirt cheap and do this well. Also definitely cut the loonies and gobbo big boss on foot, they serve virtually no purpose here.

    I'm happy to go further if you want to discuss and working on a Greenskins guide atm which has some builds in it for every faction.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 637Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    Gonna be honest I don't think there was anything inherently wrong with how the HE player played. The attacking rules never really made sense to me in the WHC, I prefer the Korean variation where you get 10 minutes to do whatever you want AND THEN the attacking rules apply. IF need be extend match length to 25-30 minutes so you still get a full 20 minutes of attacking rules applying. Drawkiting is bs but we have no evidence that it would have occurred. Actually, the corner camping is a bit lame, that is map abuse imo.

    But as a general point, the rosters in this game are different and play differently. Why should a Wood Elf player who fields one of the most elite archers in the Old World on top of a great eagle not be able to shoot the lord of the Greenskin player to death? Even in lore, killing the Warboss leading the Waaagh was widely known to be the best way to stop the Greentide. Makes no sense to me that Wood Elves should have to charge their small elite and dying race into the endless Greenskin hordes.

    Ditto with High Elves. We have a very small Elite army (and you could easily catch the Phoenix Guard), lead by the Everqueen and 2 dragons to try and stop a brutal waagh. Tactically, is Alarielle such a dunce that she would send her elite Phoenix Guard to be slaughtered by some tweaking goblins launched from a catapult? Or would she use her balling dragon to bully the Greenskins before they engage? Go watch Game of Thrones last episode where they take King's Landing, Dynareas was tearing **** up with that dragon before she sent in her forces because it made sense.

    More concretely your build needs work. I know the talk around here is that the Queen is so op and crushes HE, but it can also be a bit of a trap unit because it is very expensive and won't help you hold down many units. You can't win the cav fight, and need to always be prepared for dragons/phoenixes as well as the possibility that the HE player will bring bolt throwers to snipe your Doom Diver. (1 Bolt Thrower will comfortably snipe 1 Doom diver). Imo you need 2 magic missiles in this match up, be they gaze of mork & vindictive glare, 2 VG or 2 Gaze of Mork. Both VG & GoM are the exact same spell when cast normally, but VG overcast has 10 missiles vs 5, while Gaze of Mork overcast has 400 range vs 250. So decide if you want volume damage or to be able to harass at longer ranges. As a rule you always need 1 VG though at least.

    You also need more cav to pin stuff down and protect against cavalry, as well as skirmish cav to harass. Goblin wolf archers are dirt cheap and do this well. Also definitely cut the loonies and gobbo big boss on foot, they serve virtually no purpose here.

    I'm happy to go further if you want to discuss and working on a Greenskins guide atm which has some builds in it for every faction.

    Thanks for the detailed response. I am fully aware that my army was sub-par. I was just having fun with QB and just took a more or less random build. Probably thought like 15 seconds about it. Typically, I win the vast majority of my games on ladder when using GS, so I just goof around sometimes with sub-par armies.

    I don't mind the HE engaging me with Allarielle and his dragons to try to snipe my lord and kill my DD's. This is all fine.
    What I do mind is the fleeing with the PG to the corner of the map and not moving and inch from there.

    Even after killing my DD's and leaving 500 hp on my Goblin Shaman Lord, he just stood in the corner with his 3 PG's , 2 dragons and Allarielle. Not to mention 2 other corners of the map were occupied by 2 reavers each. What possible use would having 4 reavers so far away from the fighting and not moving an inch the entire battle? I am almost certain it was too draw kite me if things went badly for the PG.

    As you point out, corner camping is not OK, no matter what.

    While I am not a great player, I do think I am decent I am currently like 350 on ladder, and probably would be much higher, but I got randomly reset to 10,000 or something like that, twice already. I also don't care enough about ladder to get super competitive there anyways.

    I've also been able to go toe-to-toe with a lot of players that feature in ECL tournaments (though I probably lost much more than I won against these players, but the battles are usually close).

    But I do appreciate the advice.

    Right now my main goal is to get better with factions, other than GS.

    But I will definitely check out your guide!
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 18,560Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Comments with personal inappropriate references removed. (No attempt to remove the crap from the rest.) A number of individuals are on the edge of not being able to post for awhile.
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  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 18,560Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Side conversations and off topic comments removed. Last change to avoid infraction points. Discuss the thread topic.
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  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Posts: 56Registered Users
    the HE build which crushed you was well built,however if he abused map borders not to get flanked is outright abusive and shameful

    the truth is that most of the abusive builds i ran into were made of elvish factions,you have couple chances to punish it (you need cavalry for that) if you miss it and you loose all cav and your lord its a gg
    if you constantly run into people who do this and you are fed of it, make a simple list with their names and check their history of names via steam profile, invest the time into checking this,you will have better exp with the MP then

    some people have no honor / sportmanship spirit or have childish mind which has nothin to do with their age... thats the life

    also,the greenskins are the most abusable faction since they have no heal and lowish morale
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,973Registered Users


    also,the greenskins are the most abusable faction since they have no heal and lowish morale

    wut
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 637Registered Users

    the HE build which crushed you was well built,however if he abused map borders not to get flanked is outright abusive and shameful

    the truth is that most of the abusive builds i ran into were made of elvish factions,you have couple chances to punish it (you need cavalry for that) if you miss it and you loose all cav and your lord its a gg
    if you constantly run into people who do this and you are fed of it, make a simple list with their names and check their history of names via steam profile, invest the time into checking this,you will have better exp with the MP then

    some people have no honor / sportmanship spirit or have childish mind which has nothin to do with their age... thats the life

    also,the greenskins are the most abusable faction since they have no heal and lowish morale

    Well he didn't really crush me. In then end it was a close affair but I lost my lord too early to be able to pull through. Not only was the abuse of borders bad, but even worse was keeping 4 reaver units out of the entire battle, safely tacked away in the corners of the map.

    The only reason to do this is to draw kite at the end. There is no other reason to do this. It's not like you can forget 4 units on an open field for the entirety of the battle, especially if all you are controlling are 2 dragons and Allarielle (since the 3 PG were just standing in the corner all game)

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