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DE/HE cav suggestion.

keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
I don't want elves to be op faction, I just want to make an offer for the right.

so what I would suggest is only cavalry.

-DE-

Cold One is now garbage and useless due to repeated nerf. they lose against low tier infantry even when you use the correct
charging with high micros coz they got slow speed and loose formation. (if u don't believe this just pick any cavs and charging) and they are also unfavorable in cav fights. this is the result of many experiments by mine and now this rubbish is only useful against EM's cheap cav coz they r low ap and high armor focused cav.

now, this is so much painful to use this trash and now I envy other cavalry with no ap cav.
If it's a sin they have ap damage, I'd rather get rid of it and make it an ordinary cav what I mean make them to non ap cav,
increasing speed, dense formation.


and Cold One Dread is the perfect crap.
they are Tier 5 cavalry in the campaign, but much weaker than the Horned-one, the Tier 4 cavalry. lol
also In multiplayer, it has been thrown out for a long time as an unrecoverable waste that has no using or only using for new players.

I want to raise this garbage to 1500 cost and make it like Horned One.


-HE-

It may be boring to talk about Dragon Prince, but it is a popular opinion that skilled Korean players cannot understand the additional nerf of Dragon Prince. Mass was the only advantage of DP, This game has already exists cavs like DP, that are as fast as DP, some cavs got AP, more effective against CAVs and some factions supported by healing magic like HE. lol
is there any reason have you taken away DP's only advantage?

plz, now HE has a hard time using various tactics.
so I hope to roll back the mass of dp, or increase it to 1500cost and give it a better performance.
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Comments

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,321Registered Users
    on the second point, we've only got 3 threads that have devolved into that topic. ;)

    on the first point, basic cold one knights are an excellent unit in my experience. Cold one dread sure is pretty niche.

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,978Registered Users
    CoKs are good imo, not great anymore tho. Dread knights well, I haven't used them in forever.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    on the second point, we've only got 3 threads that have devolved into that topic. ;)

    on the first point, basic cold one knights are an excellent unit in my experience. Cold one dread sure is pretty niche.

    That's historical data it was really good. but now, I've played de in recent patches, also I've already done some experiments to check vs cav performance. Cold One has no merit right now.

    They are not effective against low armor ap cavs/low armor high charge bonuses,
    and not against cavalry with high armor high charge bonuses. they even loose against shield mino.

    It's all cost effective against silver helm, empire cheap cavs in my view.
    so I hardly think this is an advantage. it just disadvantage in my experience.

    I think it's better to making different roles to cold/Horn ones
    And dread really needs to change.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,973Registered Users
    Cold One Knights could use +2 MA.

    Dragon Princes +2 AP at the very very least or make them cost 1500g and give them 12 BvL.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,978Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Cold One Knights could use +2 MA.

    Dragon Princes +2 AP at the very very least or make them cost 1500g and give them 12 BvL.

    +100 gold for 12 bvL lol really
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,973Registered Users
    edited October 8
    Seldkam said:

    Green0 said:

    Cold One Knights could use +2 MA.

    Dragon Princes +2 AP at the very very least or make them cost 1500g and give them 12 BvL.

    +100 gold for 12 bvL lol really
    if you compare Silver Helms and Knights of the Realm, it seems 10-12 BvL costs this much, yes. I agree that I might have underpriced it by 50g, let's say 100-150g?

    Regardless it was just an idea, feel free to propose an alternative. In the lore, DPs are actually quite sturdy warriors, who have trained for centuries and never back out of a dire situation. They are also flawless in fighting stuff and used to ride Dragons (which would imply they fought cavalry or other monsters, otherwise why use a Dragon to kill infantry lol). It seems warranted by the lore that they would know how to fight large creatures.
  • ystyst Posts: 5,920Registered Users
    Funny af lol, these ppl actually want helf to have superior cav than bret, the only pure cav oriented factions. Talk about entitlements lulz
    Green0 said:

    In the lore, DPs are actually quite sturdy warriors, who have trained for centuries and never back out of a dire situation.

    Wow what kind of rubbish r we having here. Prolly should try grails and chaos knight lore first, its like an undergraduate trying to impress a professor lol
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,973Registered Users
    yst said:

    Funny af lol, these ppl actually want helf to have superior cav than bret, the only pure cav oriented factions. Talk about entitlements lulz

    Green0 said:

    In the lore, DPs are actually quite sturdy warriors, who have trained for centuries and never back out of a dire situation.

    Wow what kind of rubbish r we having here. Prolly should try grails and chaos knight lore first, its like an undergraduate trying to impress a professor lol
    every armybook has pretty much a "our guys are the best" flare. There's no conclusive way to establish whether a Dragon Prince > a Chosen warrior or not.

    Furthermore if you truly want to have mounted Chosen (Chaos Knights) as in the lore, their unit size should be 5-10 max not 45. Likewise for Grails.
  • turrehundturrehund Posts: 176Registered Users
    I think a +2 AP is a nice place to start. For Dragon Princes, or a +3 AP/-2 Non AP.

    A bit of a wild suggestion shot from the hip is to remove +4 MA from Martial Mastery add +8 BvL instead, as the only units with Martial Mastery are Phoenix Guard and Dragon Princes.
  • ystyst Posts: 5,920Registered Users
    Heh no surprises here, can easily tell why this faction is autopick lol.
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  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,329Registered Users
    Top 3 cav in wh lore are easily blood knights, grails and chaos knights, its hardly a contest.

    As for balance, dps and coks are fine, codks could use more hp, but are otherwise decent imo. Light cav hp for an elite heavy cav just blows though
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  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,139Registered Users
    I would really like someone to demonstrably show how reduction of mass from 1100 to 1000 impact actual game performance.

    My observation show that effective difference, if there is any, is hardly noticeable. It was a silly, out of spite suggestion to lower mass, because someone noticed the difference in game files, rather than in game. And the change is as pointless as the drive to reduce mass was.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,321Registered Users

    I would really like someone to demonstrably show how reduction of mass from 1100 to 1000 impact actual game performance.

    My observation show that effective difference, if there is any, is hardly noticeable. It was a silly, out of spite suggestion to lower mass, because someone noticed the difference in game files, rather than in game. And the change is as pointless as the drive to reduce mass was.

    balancing stats for similar units just in case it matters = spite. Good to know.
  • ystyst Posts: 5,920Registered Users
    Those 100 free mass is nothing but free bonus for popular faction. They still have that xtra free 5% block. We just have to wait and see how long this boring elven favouritism goes, doesnt seem like theres an end to it as its been going on for years.

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  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 3,978Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Seldkam said:

    Green0 said:

    Cold One Knights could use +2 MA.

    Dragon Princes +2 AP at the very very least or make them cost 1500g and give them 12 BvL.

    +100 gold for 12 bvL lol really
    if you compare Silver Helms and Knights of the Realm, it seems 10-12 BvL costs this much, yes. I agree that I might have underpriced it by 50g, let's say 100-150g?

    Regardless it was just an idea, feel free to propose an alternative. In the lore, DPs are actually quite sturdy warriors, who have trained for centuries and never back out of a dire situation. They are also flawless in fighting stuff and used to ride Dragons (which would imply they fought cavalry or other monsters, otherwise why use a Dragon to kill infantry lol). It seems warranted by the lore that they would know how to fight large creatures.
    We already went through changes to DP in the other 3-4 threads about them. I'm fine with a little AP bonus if we get a rework to star of Avelorn! Oh and some sort of metal caster.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • nonentitynonentity Posts: 127Registered Users
    What? COK are like the most cost effective AA AP cav in the game. CODK may need a buff but definitely not COK. DE can easily beat Bret in big cav engagements, especially with all their spells and AOE debuffs. Sure they are slow but they are excellent at getting counter-charges defensively.

    I agree DP didn't need the mass nerf last patch but they are still not bad units by any means.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,139Registered Users
    Make Star give AP bonus instead of healing.

    Problem solved! :)
  • ystyst Posts: 5,920Registered Users
    Seriously need to stop spoon feeding. They got more than enough tools, already have withering with shadows, net on light, frikking curse of midnight on heavens, those r plenty of spells with -30 armor already. 5 of the best lores in game, light, life, heavens, shadow and high. Dont tell me they got insufficient spells to choose from. Then u have loremaster, teclics both come with mix lores.

    Its not like they DONT have armor reduction spells, have they even been tried yet?

    Pretty sure even if u give them ALL the lore it will still come down to give drag prince +30 anti large lol.....
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  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 519Registered Users
    edited October 8
    yst said:

    Those 100 free mass is nothing but free bonus for popular faction. They still have that xtra free 5% block. We just have to wait and see how long this boring elven favouritism goes, doesnt seem like theres an end to it as its been going on for years.

    5 % block, jesus christ absolutely gamebreaking! Definitely worth 300g.

    There are a lot of fanboys out there of all kinds, mind you, the empire is also one of most popular races. Some people in here seems to have a pretty big obsession in regards to elves.
  • ystyst Posts: 5,920Registered Users
    Cirdan said:

    5 % block, jesus christ absolutely gamebreaking!

    There are a lot of fanboys out there of all kinds, mind you, the empire is also in the top.

    Lol... if its such a trivial thing wth do they have 5% more than grails, bloods, chaos each and frikking every one of those elite cav. Its an absolute disgrace they can get away with free stats like that.

    If CA ever release pick rate, it will be something similar to this




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  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,266Registered Users

    I would really like someone to demonstrably show how reduction of mass from 1100 to 1000 impact actual game performance.

    My observation show that effective difference, if there is any, is hardly noticeable. It was a silly, out of spite suggestion to lower mass, because someone noticed the difference in game files, rather than in game. And the change is as pointless as the drive to reduce mass was.

    That mass reduction for Dragon Princes was the single greatest balancing change to ever come out of this forum. The Unit formerly known as Wagon Princes had no justification for extra mass at all.
  • Meteor18Meteor18 Posts: 49Registered Users
    yst said:



    Lol... if its such a trivial thing wth do they have 5% more than grails, bloods, chaos each and frikking every one of those elite cav. Its an absolute disgrace they can get away with free stats like that.

    If CA ever release pick rate, it will be something similar to this




    I think you answered your own question with that WOW schematics. The reasons people pick High Elves in TW is the same as the reasons they pick them (Blood Elves) in WOW or any other fantasy. They are similar to humans, they look better than humans, they have female ninjas and they have Dragons. Even a chore of character like Daenerys can become the most popular character in the most popular TV show in history because of Dragons.

    And 35% missile parry isn't unique for Dragon princes. Grail Guardians, Cold One Knights and Cold One Dread Knights have similar shields. It isn't much of a stretch if you consider that Elf riders have slighter bodies (compare to men, vampires and Lizards) so a medium shield can cover more of their bodies. They also have lesser HP.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    Top 3 cav in wh lore are easily blood knights, grails and chaos knights, its hardly a contest.

    As for balance, dps and coks are fine, codks could use more hp, but are otherwise decent imo. Light cav hp for an elite heavy cav just blows though



    Can you explain how it's okay? Your comment only has a claim and no evidence. I'm glad to chaging boar boys and cok lol, man, When you make an argument, justify the evidence and i don't say just buff for me. I paid for it and asked for an ordinary cav.

    And If codks has cost 1500 then don't break balace they just become Horned Ones. I don't think this unit will be used with a slight increase in health.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,973Registered Users
    Meteor18 said:

    yst said:



    Lol... if its such a trivial thing wth do they have 5% more than grails, bloods, chaos each and frikking every one of those elite cav. Its an absolute disgrace they can get away with free stats like that.

    If CA ever release pick rate, it will be something similar to this




    I think you answered your own question with that WOW schematics. The reasons people pick High Elves in TW is the same as the reasons they pick them (Blood Elves) in WOW or any other fantasy. They are similar to humans, they look better than humans, they have female ninjas and they have Dragons. Even a chore of character like Daenerys can become the most popular character in the most popular TV show in history because of Dragons.

    And 35% missile parry isn't unique for Dragon princes. Grail Guardians, Cold One Knights and Cold One Dread Knights have similar shields. It isn't much of a stretch if you consider that Elf riders have slighter bodies (compare to men, vampires and Lizards) so a medium shield can cover more of their bodies. They also have lesser HP.
    they also have a visibly bigger shield ingame.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users

    I would really like someone to demonstrably show how reduction of mass from 1100 to 1000 impact actual game performance.

    My observation show that effective difference, if there is any, is hardly noticeable. It was a silly, out of spite suggestion to lower mass, because someone noticed the difference in game files, rather than in game. And the change is as pointless as the drive to reduce mass was.

    Mass is important in this game. You have a higher efficiency when you charge into and break away from opponents of lower mass. Do you remember the old demi-gryphs? Top-tier players say that the change in mass is greater than the change in Demigrip's specs. I don't want to say this, but it's quite amazing that you don't know this.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    Please guys. I do not want to argue without productivity. I just say about the balance of the game, and I didn't asking for a reasonless buff, I just want to pay a fair price, and just want to play other factions and enjoyable the game. Whether you're a good player or not, I'd like you to argue with the data.

    now, I'm playing strong factions with a different id, and I'm sure that factions in the top tier are better than de/he.
    surely I don't want to flip it over, I just want to enjoy the game with better balancing.

    even if I have a different faction, my win-rates are no different. It's just much easier to win.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,329Registered Users
    keroro7 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Top 3 cav in wh lore are easily blood knights, grails and chaos knights, its hardly a contest.

    As for balance, dps and coks are fine, codks could use more hp, but are otherwise decent imo. Light cav hp for an elite heavy cav just blows though



    Can you explain how it's okay? Your comment only has a claim and no evidence. I'm glad to chaging boar boys and cok lol, man, When you make an argument, justify the evidence and i don't say just buff for me. I paid for it and asked for an ordinary cav.

    And If codks has cost 1500 then don't break balace they just become Horned Ones. I don't think this unit will be used with a slight increase in health.
    COK's are quite simple and shouldn't even warrant an explanation. COK's, when compared to other cav around their pricepoint, are perfectly competitive and comparable. Their closest peer is a lizard spear rider, a unit to which it is very comparable, trading a few stats here and there but staying roughly equivalent. Compared to BBBU's theyre better in every relevant metric except hp. They trade really well into the mid-tier cav of all other factions, and can even punch well above their weight vs lower AP elites due to their AP and passable(not great but decent at 90) armor. Unless you think practically every(and I mean every) mid tier cavalry deserves a comprehensive performance buff, there is no legitimate way you could argue COK's are UP, whether by looking at their raw stats or performance(in uncontrolled grinding they actually perform pretty normally vs infantry, and while not as great vs low armor with cycle charging, they can also actually dominate the flank battle, which most other factions will struggle to do without significant overinvestment)

    DP's are a little bit more complicated. They're one of the cheapest elite heavy cav in the game, and some of their peers got unwarranted buffs in this last patch(demi price cut especially was a mistake), that said, one can't simply discount the slew of advantages they have. They might not be the stats/perks you or others want, but they have to be paid for somehow, and buffs to DP's would have to come with nerfs elsewhere. Atm they're one of teh sturdiest heavy cav in the game, with monstrous MD while MM is active, 110 armor, 35% missile block instead of the usual 30%, only slightly subaverage hp, and a physical resist that is permanent(unlike grail units), and combines nicely with fire resist to deny the easiest method of generating magic damage, flaming sword... They also have good leadership, good charge and good mobility. If you or others would prefer they have better cav fighting characteristics, it's udnerstandable, but it has to come with sacrifices elsewhere, not a simple freebie.
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  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 742Registered Users
    4 Dragon Princes = 5 Wild Riders, 3 Cold One Knights = 2 Demi Halberds, etc.

    Other units on HE/DE could use buffs more than the cav.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,973Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    , and a physical resist that is permanent(unlike grail units),

    Grail Knights also have permanent phys. resist. Seriously I've never seen those things rout with anything more than 4 models left. ItP and 80 LD > 85 LD of DPs, you should agree with this.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    keroro7 said:

    Wyvern2 said:

    Top 3 cav in wh lore are easily blood knights, grails and chaos knights, its hardly a contest.

    As for balance, dps and coks are fine, codks could use more hp, but are otherwise decent imo. Light cav hp for an elite heavy cav just blows though



    Can you explain how it's okay? Your comment only has a claim and no evidence. I'm glad to chaging boar boys and cok lol, man, When you make an argument, justify the evidence and i don't say just buff for me. I paid for it and asked for an ordinary cav.

    And If codks has cost 1500 then don't break balace they just become Horned Ones. I don't think this unit will be used with a slight increase in health.
    COK's are quite simple and shouldn't even warrant an explanation. COK's, when compared to other cav around their pricepoint, are perfectly competitive and comparable. Their closest peer is a lizard spear rider, a unit to which it is very comparable, trading a few stats here and there but staying roughly equivalent. Compared to BBBU's theyre better in every relevant metric except hp. They trade really well into the mid-tier cav of all other factions, and can even punch well above their weight vs lower AP elites due to their AP and passable(not great but decent at 90) armor. Unless you think practically every(and I mean every) mid tier cavalry deserves a comprehensive performance buff, there is no legitimate way you could argue COK's are UP, whether by looking at their raw stats or performance(in uncontrolled grinding they actually perform pretty normally vs infantry, and while not as great vs low armor with cycle charging, they can also actually dominate the flank battle, which most other factions will struggle to do without significant overinvestment)

    DP's are a little bit more complicated. They're one of the cheapest elite heavy cav in the game, and some of their peers got unwarranted buffs in this last patch(demi price cut especially was a mistake), that said, one can't simply discount the slew of advantages they have. They might not be the stats/perks you or others want, but they have to be paid for somehow, and buffs to DP's would have to come with nerfs elsewhere. Atm they're one of teh sturdiest heavy cav in the game, with monstrous MD while MM is active, 110 armor, 35% missile block instead of the usual 30%, only slightly subaverage hp, and a physical resist that is permanent(unlike grail units), and combines nicely with fire resist to deny the easiest method of generating magic damage, flaming sword... They also have good leadership, good charge and good mobility. If you or others would prefer they have better cav fighting characteristics, it's udnerstandable, but it has to come with sacrifices elsewhere, not a simple freebie.
    I am very grateful for your rational writing. I read it carefully and answer it. cok is not bad in generality as you say. Conversely, it means below-average performance against most of the cavs, which means that you lose in most cav fights. For example, gs allows you to choose bbu and sbbu depending on the situation, which can help you to respond in a broader way. bbu exchanges well with Empire's 1150cost cav, and sbbu wins br's qk. I think this is an important indicator, so as u said I can use cok against any factions cav, but I can't exchange cost effective against most factions cav. so i don't think it's good to be strong cav.

    and dp, Yes your words all make sense. but what's the use of all those options? Why do people use other cavalry or Demigrin Halbirds without using Demigrin Lance? You should know that heavy cav's condition should be the first and the important part is vs cav perfomance. No matter how much the food is seasoned, it's basically a dish that doesn't taste good. I don't think such a cav is good.

    So, as I said, if the price is heavy by those options, then let's make 1500cost to compare the other elite cav's standard price and get the fair performance for that price. Honestly, there was no reason to nerf mass. so i think roll-back is enough, but I know that when I look at patch notes in ca, I don't expect roll-back. so I made these suggestions
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